Nurok
Smash Lord
who do you believe docs biggest counter is?
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docs biggest counter?
- Thread starter Nurok
- Start date
Kashakunaki
Smash Master
Marth. However, if you know what you are doing you can pretty much play everyone on an even playing field.
MikeMoney
Smash Apprentice
Yeah I would have to say marth more range, speed downtilt EG = Death for Doc
Marth's a decent counter, yeah. But I'd also say that Captain Falcon is extremely good vs Doc as well, because of the speed and range + priority on aerials. Sheik's a counter to everyone, as well Peach is towards Doc, I reckon. Dunno about Ganondorf.. Nice knockback and edgeguard possibilities, but very easy to kill with cape however. What about Puff?
thebluedeath1000
Smash Champion
Sheik is not a counter towards everyone, shes just got a slight advantage in most matchups but the ice climbers utterly rule her.
on topic: I'd have to say peach as a counter. she can float over your pills and live to obscene damages if you try to kill her horizontally. Doc lacks vertical kill moves so he has to really pile on damage.
on topic: I'd have to say peach as a counter. she can float over your pills and live to obscene damages if you try to kill her horizontally. Doc lacks vertical kill moves so he has to really pile on damage.
chlor0form
Smash Journeyman
omfg dfgdfgsz zI hate Marth. Him and his super counter abilities with range and ghey manoeuvers pretty much.
Marth: it requires thinking/"mind-games", but it isn't impossible...definitely the hardest matchup though.
Peach: she's annoying, but by no means a "counter". Her approaches (ground floated d/b-airs, turnips and dash attacks/grabs) aren't super effective due to pills (and if shes above that you can u-air her) and her slow ground speed. You can combo her decently. Just don't crouch-cancel d-smashes and try to bait her into using it (and then f-air her). Down-throw to f-air is nice, and make sure not to play her on Dreamland64
Peach: she's annoying, but by no means a "counter". Her approaches (ground floated d/b-airs, turnips and dash attacks/grabs) aren't super effective due to pills (and if shes above that you can u-air her) and her slow ground speed. You can combo her decently. Just don't crouch-cancel d-smashes and try to bait her into using it (and then f-air her). Down-throw to f-air is nice, and make sure not to play her on Dreamland64
$ick
Smash Lord
I tend to enjoy fighting Marths with Doc but it could be simply because 2 of my main practice buddies main Marth. The range can really be a problem but with enough mind games I can to him and usually get some nice combos. I usually don't like fighting Sheiks with Doc, and also Falco but just because I hate all Falcos.
MikeMoney
Smash Apprentice
CF isnt so bad cape and combos and sheik can you say 0-death
Nurok
Smash Lord
thanks everyone
I don't play Doc... I just asked this cause Doc is my worst matchup, and i need to beat him.
=)
thanks for all your help
I don't play Doc... I just asked this cause Doc is my worst matchup, and i need to beat him.
=)
thanks for all your help
Artery_Clogger
Smash Apprentice
I always thought the CF matchup was more even then people think too, but I dunno. I get ***** by good falcons anyway, but it seems like a good Doc would would be nearly even with a good Captain.
hhliveson
Smash Cadet
simple answer... marth. marth's range and speed make this the most difficult matchup that doc can face. but that doesn't mean that it can't be won. you need to be a bit more defensive when facing marth. it comes down to waiting for openings.
boss8
Smash Hero
lol to nurok remember c3 against boss and fob
From my experience, Marth's range utterly crushes Doc powerful but short attacks, if you want to stand up to a marth, then I suggest mindgaming to the point of insanity, then finish with a side smash, Marth's recovery is slow except his up+b, so its easy to cape and knock a few bairs in.
As for peach, wavedashing is the key, keep away fom her down smash and use her turnips against her. when she is hovering she practically begs to be fair'd or sex kicked. Then pile up the upsmash or u airs as she gets creamed vertically at reletively low damage.
Sheik, quite a pain, but platforms on stages like battlefield make her very predictable, an predictablility leads to avoidance, and to countering. Also I've got in a few awesome kills by caping her up b.
In short, the average Doc can be countered by these three, but each take certain strategy to take down, I'm not saying it'll be easy, but its better than pillspamming.... Except maybe on marth ;P
As for peach, wavedashing is the key, keep away fom her down smash and use her turnips against her. when she is hovering she practically begs to be fair'd or sex kicked. Then pile up the upsmash or u airs as she gets creamed vertically at reletively low damage.
Sheik, quite a pain, but platforms on stages like battlefield make her very predictable, an predictablility leads to avoidance, and to countering. Also I've got in a few awesome kills by caping her up b.
In short, the average Doc can be countered by these three, but each take certain strategy to take down, I'm not saying it'll be easy, but its better than pillspamming.... Except maybe on marth ;P
darkshy
Smash Ace
Like everyone else...
Marth because of his range
And another Doc because mirrors battles are just weird.
Marth because of his range
And another Doc because mirrors battles are just weird.
HI TEAM!
let me start off by saying
you n00bs ruin smashboards.
if you don't know what your talking about don't post. (PS. you probably don't, unless your name ends with $ -no offense cyphus, but its your own fault for not naming yourself cyphu$)
giving people false information is worse than saying nothing.
Secondly this guy ^ up above me.. (EDIT: god**** page wrap) yea that is the most retardedest signature ive ever seen. your a user of ... internet explorer? and windows mediaplayer? not only that but you repeat yourself... you have adobe... than you go and have photoshop as well.. do you actually use any of those apps? WTF WTF WTF WTF.
NEWayz its been fun. LOADS.(<---you know what im talkin about cape)
On topic. watch out for the pichu counters.
let me start off by saying
you n00bs ruin smashboards.
if you don't know what your talking about don't post. (PS. you probably don't, unless your name ends with $ -no offense cyphus, but its your own fault for not naming yourself cyphu$)
giving people false information is worse than saying nothing.
Secondly this guy ^ up above me.. (EDIT: god**** page wrap) yea that is the most retardedest signature ive ever seen. your a user of ... internet explorer? and windows mediaplayer? not only that but you repeat yourself... you have adobe... than you go and have photoshop as well.. do you actually use any of those apps? WTF WTF WTF WTF.
NEWayz its been fun. LOADS.(<---you know what im talkin about cape)
On topic. watch out for the pichu counters.
gkrackerr
Smash Ace
Sorry if I sound noobish for saying this, but I am a bit confused about what you mean. I never really play pichu doc matches, so I couldnt really say anything about it. So, if you wouldn't mind, do you think you could explain.
Gea
Smash Master
With Peach I'd consider it way too stage dependant to even things up. Small stages have you ***** by whorenado, while the biggest stages allow her to outlive you forever and a half.
Still, I'd consider Peach much less of a threat than Marth and Falcon. People say the cape can really mess up Falcon... but you have to remember nearly every character can abuse Falcon's crappy recovery. Its not tilted way towards Falcon but he definitely has the advantage.
Pichu counters? Doc has a pretty sick grab game on pika and pichu.
Still, I'd consider Peach much less of a threat than Marth and Falcon. People say the cape can really mess up Falcon... but you have to remember nearly every character can abuse Falcon's crappy recovery. Its not tilted way towards Falcon but he definitely has the advantage.
Pichu counters? Doc has a pretty sick grab game on pika and pichu.
Bullet Bill
Smash Master
quite scrub.
I think Marth is the biggest counter but it's because of Marth's pro's more than Doc con's if you know what I mean
I think you meant to call me a scrub, and tell me to be "quiet" but, i'm not 'quite' sure.
regardless, your comment was ********.
if your gonna say its "because of marths pros"
make a comment on what 'pros' are so detrimental to doc. For example marths F-Smash. has killer range on doc, making it hard for doc to even touch marth. Or marths ftilt cancels pills making it harder to pillspam,
OR make a comment on how to get around said marth 'pros'
FOR example. mindgame marth into a Fsmash and rush in for the punishment.
Edgeguard the **** outta marth. if hes gonna sweetspot, do a cape, but be sure to be far enough away to not get hit by the soward.
up-air juggles work ok at lower percent's. use Pills defensively, prevent him from getting to close, until your the one trying to get close. basically make him pursue and punish when possible.
regardless, your comment was ********.
if your gonna say its "because of marths pros"
make a comment on what 'pros' are so detrimental to doc. For example marths F-Smash. has killer range on doc, making it hard for doc to even touch marth. Or marths ftilt cancels pills making it harder to pillspam,
OR make a comment on how to get around said marth 'pros'
FOR example. mindgame marth into a Fsmash and rush in for the punishment.
Edgeguard the **** outta marth. if hes gonna sweetspot, do a cape, but be sure to be far enough away to not get hit by the soward.
up-air juggles work ok at lower percent's. use Pills defensively, prevent him from getting to close, until your the one trying to get close. basically make him pursue and punish when possible.
Omg, it's Gea. I haven't heard from you in forever!
Onto topic...Falcon can also reverse upb and then you can't cape him. Plus, if a Falcon has you in the air, you are as good as dead against a good Falcon. The only real way to edgeguard Falcon is bair/ maybe a nair. The cape you can only use if he's really far away in which case against most characters he's as good as dead. Also, Doc can cg him from like 35 or 40-...(don't remember) using the dthrow, but it's pretty hard. Doc can't use his main projectile against Falcon either (pills). Falcon will just run in and knee you or nair the pills and go after you. The matchup is really hard.
At least against Marth you have some good uair combos you can get in, and you can also edgeguard him somewhat. Also, Doc's dash attack cancels out Marth's fsmash and it can also go under his shield if Marth's shield is slightly weakened.
That's what I think anyways, I've at least beaten a good Marth, however, I've never beaten a good Falcon. Just throwing my thoughts in there. Think what you may.
Onto topic...Falcon can also reverse upb and then you can't cape him. Plus, if a Falcon has you in the air, you are as good as dead against a good Falcon. The only real way to edgeguard Falcon is bair/ maybe a nair. The cape you can only use if he's really far away in which case against most characters he's as good as dead. Also, Doc can cg him from like 35 or 40-...(don't remember) using the dthrow, but it's pretty hard. Doc can't use his main projectile against Falcon either (pills). Falcon will just run in and knee you or nair the pills and go after you. The matchup is really hard.
At least against Marth you have some good uair combos you can get in, and you can also edgeguard him somewhat. Also, Doc's dash attack cancels out Marth's fsmash and it can also go under his shield if Marth's shield is slightly weakened.
That's what I think anyways, I've at least beaten a good Marth, however, I've never beaten a good Falcon. Just throwing my thoughts in there. Think what you may.
MuBa
Smash Lord
Peach I really don't have trouble against since I play against them ALL the time!
But as for Doc's worst match ups, it'd be Marth and Falcon.
P.S. - I know this isn't about Doc but according to the match up chart, how in the world is Mario vs. Falcon an EVEN match?
But as for Doc's worst match ups, it'd be Marth and Falcon.
P.S. - I know this isn't about Doc but according to the match up chart, how in the world is Mario vs. Falcon an EVEN match?
Binx
Smash Master
Marth is deffinately complete ownage vs both mario and doc, the only falcon I play is like crazy leet and I cant beat him with any character, but as far as players of equal skill I havnt had much trouble with falcon as doc, as far as I have seen neut out prioritizes like 4/5 of his moves, and you have a good grab game, and Ive never heard of the reverse up B so I dont know how caping would work on someone who knows how to do it.
eighteenspikes
Smash Master
ganon is my worst matchup.
Most marths are unfamiliar with Doc playstyles (unless you're a noob ***** doc that just spams pills, only attempts edgeguards with cape and bair, and approaches with fair), and everyone knows how Marth works. In this sense, Marth shouldn't be that bad of a matchup unless your opponent is much smarter than you, in which case it doesn't matter anyways.
Most marths are unfamiliar with Doc playstyles (unless you're a noob ***** doc that just spams pills, only attempts edgeguards with cape and bair, and approaches with fair), and everyone knows how Marth works. In this sense, Marth shouldn't be that bad of a matchup unless your opponent is much smarter than you, in which case it doesn't matter anyways.
What reverse up b is exactly as it sounds. It's when Falcon is under the stage, and he faces the opposite direction of the ledge when he grabs it. I'll make a really short video of it being done if you don't understand how to do it after me explaining this.
the red ranger
Smash Rookie
i personally find sheik and falcon matchups sort of fun. pills work against them a lot better than marth and it's easier to get in close.
marth on yoshi story = no chance for me though....
marth on yoshi story = no chance for me though....
I played a Falcon at my level in a tournament not long ago, and I allmoste won the set.(last stock) I can't say i noctised any hardship with that, but I don't play Falcons at my level very often. Two Falcons in my country are better than me(like wtfpwnage), and ones problary under me.
Luma
Smash Lord
just grab sheik and she is done ^^
Fox and Falco are tough matchups, but winnable. Doc can cg them and do some other gay stuff, however they still do pretty well. Basically, Doc wins them on FD and everywhere else is even... I think. Fox and Falco might have some advantages every other stage.. I'm not really sure.
Sheik is really tough, but still winnable also. If you are a good Doc (I'm not) you can cg her a good amount using dthrow. Even though her needles go through the Doc's pills, Doc can still use them as spacing and such.
Marth and Peach... both of them you can do some upair combos, and Peach you can do uthrow to Fair which kills. Marth has a lotta good stuff on you and so does Peach (Peach outprioritizes all Doc's moves and Marth outranges Doc really well).
The reason Falcon is the worst to fight, is Doc really doesn't have anything on him. I mean, you can also cg him... but it's just as tough as Sheik's. You also can't really use pills on him, or approach with nair because he'll just knee you or something.
If you want a more precise answer, I'd pm Cyphus because he'll get all in-depth... possibly.. or he'll just state things better.
IMO, it goes Falcon, Sheik, Peach, Marth, Falco, Fox. That's just my opinion, and isn't fact. I hope I helped.
Sheik is really tough, but still winnable also. If you are a good Doc (I'm not) you can cg her a good amount using dthrow. Even though her needles go through the Doc's pills, Doc can still use them as spacing and such.
Marth and Peach... both of them you can do some upair combos, and Peach you can do uthrow to Fair which kills. Marth has a lotta good stuff on you and so does Peach (Peach outprioritizes all Doc's moves and Marth outranges Doc really well).
The reason Falcon is the worst to fight, is Doc really doesn't have anything on him. I mean, you can also cg him... but it's just as tough as Sheik's. You also can't really use pills on him, or approach with nair because he'll just knee you or something.
If you want a more precise answer, I'd pm Cyphus because he'll get all in-depth... possibly.. or he'll just state things better.
IMO, it goes Falcon, Sheik, Peach, Marth, Falco, Fox. That's just my opinion, and isn't fact. I hope I helped.
guesswho
Smash Cadet
i have a real tough time against good projectile spamming links. think about it . fi he comes back from thhe edge you can cape him. you can smash him off only if he doesnt have a bomb in his hand. >.< i hate link
^^me too. I have a very manueverable doc (and finally now on other stages besides FD) and once you get moving around with doc, as well as learning to Powershield and when to cape, it becomes a really onesided. Link can do some annoying stuff to you recovery, but IMO link isn't too hard once you have control over Doc's movements (unlike the others, where you also need crazy good tech skillz to keep up)
I don't find falco's too hard, surprisingly: again I think it is just my style of Doc + playing falco's lots. I regularly beat falcos my level/ bit better than me. Fox is more annoying, as he's just too fast (or was...I seem to be reacting better recently, able to keep up more). Shiek is just fast and able to combo.
Even barely decent falcons **** me, as I learned at my last tourny. The speed again, plus crazy priority. Easy to kill once you have them off the edge, or if they lose" momentum" (not sure how exactly to explain it, but kind of how wars used to be about waves of attack, the momentum would shift from one side to the other, this seems to really affect the falcons I played--If I wasn't dead tired I'd be able to explain it better)
So I'd say:
Cap Falcon
Fox
Shiek
Falco
Peach
I don't find falco's too hard, surprisingly: again I think it is just my style of Doc + playing falco's lots. I regularly beat falcos my level/ bit better than me. Fox is more annoying, as he's just too fast (or was...I seem to be reacting better recently, able to keep up more). Shiek is just fast and able to combo.
Even barely decent falcons **** me, as I learned at my last tourny. The speed again, plus crazy priority. Easy to kill once you have them off the edge, or if they lose" momentum" (not sure how exactly to explain it, but kind of how wars used to be about waves of attack, the momentum would shift from one side to the other, this seems to really affect the falcons I played--If I wasn't dead tired I'd be able to explain it better)
So I'd say:
Cap Falcon
Fox
Shiek
Falco
Peach
MuBa
Smash Lord
Against Peach you gotta pill spam her, trust me on this, it gets her pretty bad.
Falcon isn't that much of a threat either, and SPAWN I'd have to disagree with the N-air approach against Falcon, N-air works great against Falcon.
You can gay Fox and Falco pretty well....against Falco, try to control the match by caping when he SHL, also pill him in an annoying fashion by mixing the positions up.
Sheik is just plain stupid, but CC Downsmash is your friend, plus short-hopped pills work great in case she tries to needle you.
Marth...well...you gotta be REALLY PRECISE when looking for an opening on his laggy attacks...I'd say roll-dodge a lot against him and try to get a grab in. But out of all the matches I think Marth's the toughest.
Falcon isn't that much of a threat either, and SPAWN I'd have to disagree with the N-air approach against Falcon, N-air works great against Falcon.
You can gay Fox and Falco pretty well....against Falco, try to control the match by caping when he SHL, also pill him in an annoying fashion by mixing the positions up.
Sheik is just plain stupid, but CC Downsmash is your friend, plus short-hopped pills work great in case she tries to needle you.
Marth...well...you gotta be REALLY PRECISE when looking for an opening on his laggy attacks...I'd say roll-dodge a lot against him and try to get a grab in. But out of all the matches I think Marth's the toughest.
Roman.
Smash Champion
I'd say marth is hard, but if your quick and smart, you'll do fine.
Falco and fox can be pretty easy if you know the tricks.
Peach...sigh. I get goosbumps when I see her. Unless you get a small level, it's pretty **** hard to kill a decent peach.
Falcon is just hard against doc plain and simple. Nothing we can do about it he's just got advantages everywhere. If you want the win your edgeguarding will have to be flawless, and so will 'getting' him off the stage.
Falco and fox can be pretty easy if you know the tricks.
Peach...sigh. I get goosbumps when I see her. Unless you get a small level, it's pretty **** hard to kill a decent peach.
Falcon is just hard against doc plain and simple. Nothing we can do about it he's just got advantages everywhere. If you want the win your edgeguarding will have to be flawless, and so will 'getting' him off the stage.
MASTER_VOID
Smash Journeyman
i cant stand marth.......bad matchup on battle field.....for me anyways. curse the sword.but beatable thought..........i have a hard time with projectile spammers......link and samus...........kind of difficult.............all you need is some good mindgames and a heck of a good reaction time.