Do patches scare you?

[Smasher89]

Yep, since all the nerfs on Rosalina on 3ds i play the game way less solely because the things i used were all nerfed, and i want to be able to play a 2 char character viably in tournaments with the aim to win it, playing much on for glory and getting a good winrate can potencially damage my chances of winning a tournament due to the risks of patches, just like the first wii u patch did for me.

 

[★Malik★™]

Before or after the fact?

I will say naturally, if a patch pertains to heavily nerfing our mains, then yeah.

 

[ffdgh]

Nah since peach isn't exactly setting the smash world on fire lol. I expect buffs more than anything.

 

[Dr. Bread]

part of me wants to go back and try an old patch...

I sorta like the current patch because it helps certain characters a lot, like charizard, link, ike, and falco, but i also sorta dont like it because it crapped on diddy kong, and since then luigi has basically taken his place (although its suggested that luigi beat diddy pre-patch anyway) and sheik/rosa are huge as well now.

then again, i guess an overplayed character will centralize the metagame no matter how strong they actually are.

 

[LightLV]

part of me wants to go back and try an old patch...

I sorta like the current patch because it helps certain characters a lot, like charizard, link, ike, and falco, but i also sorta dont like it because it crapped on diddy kong, and since then luigi has basically taken his place (although its suggested that luigi beat diddy pre-patch anyway) and sheik/rosa are huge as well now.

then again, i guess an overplayed character will centralize the metagame no matter how strong they actually are.

None of the S-tiers have been nerfed in a way that drops them anywhere close to sub-S tier, and it's highly doubtful they ever will.

 

[Gibbs]

Diddy went from #1 to like 8-12, definitely bumped from S to A-

 

[Smasher89]

None of the S-tiers have been nerfed in a way that drops them anywhere close to sub-S tier, and it's highly doubtful they ever will.

Test first version of japanese Rosalina on 3ds compared to now, shes waaaaay worse now then back then.

 

[LightLV]

Test first version of japanese Rosalina on 3ds compared to now, shes waaaaay worse now then back then.

still better than 95% of the cast though.

 

[Dsull]

Rosalina is also a completely unique character to the smash roster. When they bring in a semi-clone or a basic moveset character (nothing weird about them such as rejuv mechanics, disjointed attacks that arent projectiles, super armor, etc) its fairly easy to judge how strong they are so the tweaks needed are much less. Rosalina has a master slave thing going on, while Ice Climbers had a drone mimicking you entirely.

She was bound to be too strong at first because its easier to tone numbers down than buff them. When you buff them you have to predict the outcome in performance, while nerfing you know because you have comparable stats youre aiming for with other characters. Not saying they dont nerf too hard dont get me wrong.
Not the first time Smash had a new moveset entirely (not a single clone attack) added to the roster and it was abnormally strong *cough* metaknight *cough*

I think Rosalina is in a good spot right now and i honestly believe most of the people that whine about her nerfs are the people that loved how OP she was and easy to use. I still come across a few Rosalinas that wipe the freakin floor with me despite the nerfs. Shes not bad.
Theres still people whining about Lucario's nerf, which until Ryu popped up was my 2nd most successful character (1st being DK). I didnt see why he needed the nerfs but i dont think the nerfs broke him either. I just learned to deal with it (and it REALLY makes me plan ahead before i use UpB with that huge landing lag lol)

 

[Dr. Bread]

personally i'd love to see lucario be buffed, but also to have his aura mechanic mitigated. when im playing lucario i feel like i have to take damage in order to become a threat which is... kinda not so great. and then later once you do take damage you become ... kind of a god character?

dunno if anyone else feels that way but i dont really like lucario as-is.

also on the matter of diddy kong i'd honestly be willing to put him lower than #15 in terms of viability, even if ZeRo did 3-0 Mr. R.

I find it interesting that he didn't drop a game against him at EVO, but he did at Apex when diddy was in its prime and when he had mew2king as a practice partner. Maybe just not enough experience against sheik or mr. r's shenanegins? hard to say

not everybody plays at the top of their game after traveling to a different hemisphere and playing hours and hours of customs brackets though

 

[TriTails]

I'll still wear my green cap and shirt, along with my blue overalls and brown shoes, ruined or not.

The devs have been pretty sane on the buffs and nerfs so far, so I don't think they'll ruin even one character.

 

[Dsull]

I feel you on the aura thing. Ive pulled off some lengthy combos as Lucario right off the bat and end up only doing ~40% lol. But once i get around 90% damage i can obliterate people QUICK and heaven forbid i reach 150% and my Aura Sphere becomes a godly projectile of doom. When i hear that loud staticy noise when i charge it i go "Ohhh yeah FUN TIME!!" lol

On the flipside i kinda fear if they normalize his aura so its nowhere near as drastic, it might make him kinda stale. Yaknow, like in Brawl lol.

 

[verbatim]

None of the characters I took a liking too turned out to be A or S tier, so my opinions on patches pertain more to the overall meta than the characters I specifically play.


I'm really happy that patches are being used to buff weaker characters, but I wish that they'd change up the way they're nerfing high tier characters.

In my opinion, nerf's should reduce the effectiveness of character's options, not take away options. The best example of this is Diddy Kong, who's up-air went from being a meme to a joke across 2 patches. IMO, in the case of Diddy and all future nerf's (hi Sheik), knockback and basic move mechanics (Bowser losing Bowsercide is understandable from a FG standpoint, but it's not exactly like he was high tier with it) should not be changed, as it can fundamentally change the way a character plays. Changes to damage, move priority, and weight are more preferable, since they affect the risk/reward ratio of certain tactics, without explicitly voiding them.


Changes to knockback are fine for buff's though, specifically giving character's throw combos.


Ultimately what I'm getting it as that I really want to start seeing weight changes.

In addition to fixing an inconsistency with Melee, making Mewtwo a heavyweight would make him at least somewhat viable (C/C+) and add to the extremely unrepresented heavy/floaty character combination. Slightly nerfing Sheik and 1.0.7 Diddy Kong's weight wouldn't take away from their gameplay, while simultaneously giving the rest of the cast the chance to nullify their amazing options with well placed reads in rage.

 

[TriTails]

Heavyweight Mewtwo would be OP as ****. That way he'd be basically a faster Ganon with a projectile and near ungimpable recovery.

 

[[Deuce]]

After 1.0.4 I have very little to fear in regards to Greninja.

Especially since 1.0.8 even buffed him significantly so they know Greninja doesn't need any more nerfs.

Ftilt buff = significant?

 

[verbatim]

Heavyweight Mewtwo would be OP as ****. That way he'd be basically a faster Ganon with a projectile and near ungimpable recovery.

Eh, Smash as a whole is extremely unfavorable to tall characters. No matter what weight he is, being tall and floaty makes Mewtwo the easiest character in the game to juggle.

Also the Ganon analogy is a bit off. Ganon mains live and die by their reads and punishes, whereas Mewtwo is extremely combo oriented, not to mention SIGNIFICANTLY weaker/faster. IMO a better comparison is a floaty Captain Falcon, a heavyweight with a number of excellent combo setups and a few powerful kill options.

 

[WakerofWinds]

I choose my characters based off of the way they feel to play in that particular game. I'm not really worried about a few slight nerfs here or there, and I don't think many characters would get completely game-changing nerfs. If a patch came out which did fundamentally change whatever character I was using, I'd be sad and disappointed... but I'm not really worried about it.

 

[verbatim]

None of the S-tiers have been nerfed in a way that drops them anywhere close to sub-S tier, and it's highly doubtful they ever will.

Diddy's low A, and that's not even counting Greninja, who literally never made it to America.

I also kind of expect Sheik to get hit with a massive overkill in the next patch, then Rosa in the next, then Fox, but hey that's just me.

Because FFAs sell the game. 1v1s don't. Who's moronic enough to balance the game around what amounts to a side mode at best?

They've done both (this is referencing FG versus tournaments, but the point's the same). Smashboards didn't breathe a sigh of relief when Bowsercide got changed to kill him first, and Diddy kong wasn't ultra prevalent in 1.0.7 FG. IK that glitches are different from balance patches, but Olimar's Amplification Glitch was addressed despite being a custom and only really making a single performance at Aftershock, whereas double Pacman's infinite ladder timeout option got patched after FG abuse, when it never made a big tournament impact (seriously, has anyone ever tried this at a regional/streamed weekly? If so please link.)


Ultimately, the Smash balance team has a much bigger range of playstyles to address than the ultra competitive nature that is smashboards and co, but that doesn't mean they're ignoring us either.

 

[T-nuts]

Because FFAs sell the game. 1v1s don't. Who's moronic enough to balance the game around what amounts to a side mode at best?

He balances for FFAs first. I don't recall ever saying "only."

Dude, I'm sorry but I gotta say this is incredibly off base. You are correct that the party aspect sells this game, but smash is not even close to being balanced around ffa's because, well, ffa's are innately imbalanced. People often play them with items on, as whichever character they feel like at the moment, as a casual experience. You think balance patches are aimed at the casual audience?

Even if I point out, for the sake of covering my bases, that some players like more competitive ffa's with items turned off etc, there are too many variables for nintendo to account for to create a balanced experience. What if some of the players decide to team up on another player? You can bet that ZeRo would not have won EVO 2015 if FFA's were the standard, even though he was clearly the best player.

The community for this game cares about balanced 1v1's and 2v2's, not balanced FFA's. If you disagree, just take a look at the number of community generated 1v1 tier lists compared to FFA tier lists. Sakurai is smart enough to know this and has balanced his game accordingly. If anything, in an ideal world, the modes would be balanced equally, but FFA's would be balanced around lower level players performing accessibly basic moves with their characters (balanced "skill floors") and 1v1's and 2v2's would be balanced around high level players pushing every aspect of the game to its limits (balanced "skill ceilings").

 

[25%Cotton]

not really. there's almost no way they can make WFT any worse.

i guess they could remove her spikes, but if they did that then she would no longer be a character at all. might as well just commit suicide and end the match quicker.

 

[Smasher89]

The thing is, Rosalinas nerfs were mostly based on the national championships, which had the players get like 5min practice at most, of course a hard hitter will do well when people cant control their character or know whats punishable and not, just look at bowser. Shiek vs Rosalina were more even back then then now, even though sheik were also hitting "twice as hard". THe current iteration of the fair+jab is way to safe compared to the global balance when it comes to other characters.

 

[LightLV]

Eh, Smash as a whole is extremely unfavorable to tall characters. No matter what weight he is, being tall and floaty makes Mewtwo the easiest character in the game to juggle.

Also the Ganon analogy is a bit off. Ganon mains live and die by their reads and punishes, whereas Mewtwo is extremely combo oriented, not to mention SIGNIFICANTLY weaker/faster. IMO a better comparison is a floaty Captain Falcon, a heavyweight with a number of excellent combo setups and a few powerful kill options.

What smash really favors are speedy, low-recovery characters. In every game. Without fail, the top tiers are the speedy, low-recovery ones. Even in this game. The deliberate lowering of hitstun and real followups makes this even worse, since it universally lowers the value of a punish...and gives it all to speedy, low-recovery characters, the only ones who can usually take advantage. speed and low recovery gives you options, and thats what the majority of midtier lacks compared to the top tier.

Ike can kill you off a hard-read Fsmash punish? Who cares, mario can 0-55% combo you off a Dthrow, and then KO you with an Fsmash at 95% that comes out 25 frames faster. Ganon is strong? Whatever, call me when he doesn't get punished for landing with an aerial. Marth has a tipper? Sweet deal, call me when it doesn't get out-ranged by a goddamn elbow.

Heavyweights and characters with more neutral frame data simply don't have enough perks in their movesets to ever counterbalance the lack of options they have. It's made even worse in Smash4, with other balance features like Shieldpush/stun being nonexistant, shield recovery being instant, and everything being horribly negative on block, which even further slants the meta towards speedy, low-recovery characters with mobility.

 

[FullMoon]

Ftilt buff = significant?

Yes? An unsafe character getting a safe on shield move is pretty significant.

 

[LancerStaff]

Dude, I'm sorry but I gotta say this is incredibly off base. You are correct that the party aspect sells this game, but smash is not even close to being balanced around ffa's because, well, ffa's are innately imbalanced. People often play them with items on, as whichever character they feel like at the moment, as a casual experience. You think balance patches are aimed at the casual audience?

Even if I point out, for the sake of covering my bases, that some players like more competitive ffa's with items turned off etc, there are too many variables for nintendo to account for to create a balanced experience. What if some of the players decide to team up on another player? You can bet that ZeRo would not have won EVO 2015 if FFA's were the standard, even though he was clearly the best player.

The community for this game cares about balanced 1v1's and 2v2's, not balanced FFA's. If you disagree, just take a look at the number of community generated 1v1 tier lists compared to FFA tier lists. Sakurai is smart enough to know this and has balanced his game accordingly. If anything, in an ideal world, the modes would be balanced equally, but FFA's would be balanced around lower level players performing accessibly basic moves with their characters (balanced "skill floors") and 1v1's and 2v2's would be balanced around high level players pushing every aspect of the game to its limits (balanced "skill ceilings").

If they're not balancing for FFAs, then why does every character with a Charge Shot type move suck? (Besides who's only as good as he is because aura highly exploits the whole "can't KO for beans" that most high tiers have going on.)

It's not about the community, it's about who's playing the game more. Even just comparing Smashboards users to the sales of Brawl we find out that competitive players make up less then 1% of sales, and that's assuming everybody here bought Brawl new and considers themselves competitive. There's no point aiming for a niche when there's literally 99 times more people playing casually. Especially when, yaknow, that's the whole reason Smash was created in the the first place.

 

[The-Power-Within]

As a Roy main, yes, I'm extremely scared of patches.

Honestly, with Lucas, I don't think I have to worry about too much, since every tier list I've seen puts him in mid-high tier.

Ness, I'm kind of scared of a patch, but it seems they haven't really done much to Ness just yet.

 

[Snackss]

Diddy's low A, and that's not even counting Greninja, who literally never made it to America.

I also kind of expect Sheik to get hit with a massive overkill in the next patch, then Rosa in the next, then Fox, but hey that's just me.

Why do people still say this about Diddy? Banana is amazing and his aerials are still fantastic even with greatly-reduced KO power. He's definitely not below Fox or Mario or anything, but he's not at the level of ridiculous power of Rosalina and Sheik anymore.

I'm not at all scared of patches because hopefully Greninja will get his shuriken fixed, and Sheik will no longer completely control the neutral and be able to punish instantly mid-screen just by pushing B.

 

[LightLV]

Why do people still say this about Diddy? Banana is amazing and his aerials are still fantastic even with greatly-reduced KO power. He's definitely not below Fox or Mario or anything, but he's not at the level of ridiculous power of Rosalina and Sheik anymore.

He also won EVO, so...

If they're not balancing for FFAs, then why does every character with a Charge Shot type move suck? (Besides who's only as good as he is because aura highly exploits the whole "can't KO for beans" that most high tiers have going on.)

You are the master of taking things and running with it. 3 characters in the whole game have charge shots, and there are way more than 3 suckass characters in this game. And i also find it peculiar that "they suck outside FFA" in your mind is a legit state of balance.

 

[LancerStaff]

You are the master of taking things and running with it. 3 characters in the whole game have charge shots, and there are way more than 3 suckass characters in this game. And i also find it peculiar that "they suck outside FFA" in your mind is a legit state of balance.

Besides Lucario, there's Samus, Mewtwo, Robin, Gunner (which most certainly isn't high with that particular custom alone) and WFT. That's a tenth of a fifty character roster. It's no coincidence that they're all bad. They're built around the charge shot type moves, but are lacking in ways to defend themselves. If FFAs, they're balanced.

Because balancing a side mode that one percent of players take seriously is a good way to balance a game...

 

[Archimedes]

No not really, I seriously doubt they would really nerf any of my characters. Maybe slight things to Ness. Honestly what I wanna be seeing is some major buffs to lower tiers. Very few have gotten significant buffs and even if they did it didnt help as much as I wanted. *cough* Marth *cough*. If getting a few of the top characters slightly nerfed for some major buffs on the lowers I'd be fine with that. As long as they don't screw up any of the characters.

 

[LightLV]

Besides Lucario, there's Samus, Mewtwo, Robin, Gunner (which most certainly isn't high with that particular custom alone) and WFT. That's a tenth of a fifty character roster. It's no coincidence that they're all bad. They're built around the charge shot type moves, but are lacking in ways to defend themselves. If FFAs, they're balanced.

Because balancing a side mode that one percent of players take seriously is a good way to balance a game...

- Charge moves are balanced specifically for FFAs because they're so AMAZINGLY good in FFA (???) that the other 98% of your moves, specials and normals combined, deserve to suck. (Shiek's needles, ZSS's paralyzer, Link/Toon Link's arrows included. Also DK's punch if we want to keep reaching.)

-Smash Bros is designed for FFA, all items, Timed, No Stock, No final destination...which is just another way for me to suggest both Samus and Shiek are equally balanced characters and not sound insane. Omega mode, Items off, Stock matches, Team Attack and For Glory are for a 1% niche.

Am I correct? Am I reading you right thus far?

By your logic, there's no reason to balance the guns in Halo because you're supposed to have alot of people shooting at you. Your whole basis for this argument makes little sense, and the tiny bit that does you have stretched way farther than it can.

 

[neohopeSTF]

If they're not balancing for FFAs, then why does every character with a Charge Shot type move suck? (Besides who's only as good as he is because aura highly exploits the whole "can't KO for beans" that most high tiers have going on.)

It's not about the community, it's about who's playing the game more. Even just comparing Smashboards users to the sales of Brawl we find out that competitive players make up less then 1% of sales, and that's assuming everybody here bought Brawl new and considers themselves competitive. There's no point aiming for a niche when there's literally 99 times more people playing casually. Especially when, yaknow, that's the whole reason Smash was created in the the first place.

Shiek is the only top tier that has trouble killing. Stop using one character and saying that every top tier is like them.

 

[LightLV]

And that clearly isn't even an issue. Because I watch Shieks murder the **** out of people all the time.

 

[LancerStaff]

- Charge moves are balanced specifically for FFAs because they're so AMAZINGLY good in FFA (???) that the other 98% of your moves, specials and normals combined, deserve to suck. (Shiek's needles, ZSS's paralyzer, Link/Toon Link's arrows included. Also DK's punch if we want to keep reaching.)

-Smash Bros is designed for FFA, all items, Timed, No Stock, No final destination...which is just another way for me to suggest both Samus and Shiek are equally balanced characters and not sound insane. Omega mode, Items off, Stock matches, Team Attack and For Glory are for a 1% niche.

Am I correct? Am I reading you right thus far?

By your logic, there's no reason to balance the guns in Halo because you're supposed to have alot of people shooting at you. Your whole basis for this argument makes little sense, and the tiny bit that does you have stretched way farther than it can.

Shieks needles don't KO, Giant Punch isn't a projectile, and the other charge moves can't be held like Charge Shot and most don't KO. How do any of those moves function like Samus's Charge Shot or Shadow Ball?

Sakurai balances the game primarily around for Glory FFAs. A random stage and items are more difficult to balance for, but he does the best he can. But not tournament rulesets. When it comes to 1v1s it's Glory 1v1s.

By my logic you should balance guns in Halo for when there's tons of people shooting at you, not that you shouldn't balance at all. That's just stupid and you're missing my point entirely.

Shiek is the only top tier that has trouble killing. Stop using one character and saying that every top tier is like them.

Compared to the rest of the cast at large, yes.

 

[Beach]

Not really, I play Puff and or basically who ever I feel like playing at the time (Which is mostly mid-low tiers just for fun) so patches normally mean a buff or two and if the top tiers get nerfed it might help out my match ups more so in a passive way.

 

[Dr. Bread]

The points lancerstaff is trying to make are outrageous and honestly kinda derailing. I think its pretty safe to say that that ffa online with items would not be trusted by developers to provide any sort of relevant data. Not every character who is good in singles is good in free-for-all, but having 4 players at once as well as items means that any character that can hold a stock can win. In addition to that, free-for-all is never played played with 100% seriousness, in any skill level.

aaaaanyway i think its safe to say that there's no way it can be trusted to provide reliable data, and that the developers fully understand that. its safe to say that FFA was considered to be pretty much satisfactory at the time of release.

 

[LightLV]

Shieks needles don't KO, Giant Punch isn't a projectile, and the other charge moves can't be held like Charge Shot and most don't KO. How do any of those moves function like Samus's Charge Shot or Shadow Ball?

Sakurai balances the game primarily around for Glory FFAs. A random stage and items are more difficult to balance for, but he does the best he can. But not tournament rulesets. When it comes to 1v1s it's Glory 1v1s.

I'm really, REALLY starting to think the Charge Shot that you encounter is an entirely different monster than the very meh attack i'm used to that takes 10 years to charge up, clashes with the most ridiculous projectiles, and doesn't kill nearly as fast as you are pretending it does.

By my logic you should balance guns in Halo for when there's tons of people shooting at you, not that you shouldn't balance at all. That's just stupid and you're missing my point entirely.

I must be missing your point entirely. Because i'm not understanding how in either of these scenarios, taking players out of the equation creates a JUSTIFIABLE situation of imbalance to the point of half the roster (or guns in this case) being terrible.

Sakurai surely does some absolutely stupid things with this series, but i don't think he's nearly quite as dumb (or shortsighted) as you are desperately trying to make him out to be.

 

[LancerStaff]

The points lancerstaff is trying to make are outrageous and honestly kinda derailing. I think its pretty safe to say that that ffa online with items would not be trusted by developers to provide any sort of relevant data. Not every character who is good in singles is good in free-for-all, but having 4 players at once as well as items means that any character that can hold a stock can win. In addition to that, free-for-all is never played played with 100% seriousness, in any skill level.

aaaaanyway i think its safe to say that there's no way it can be trusted to provide reliable data, and that the developers fully understand that. its safe to say that FFA was considered to be pretty much satisfactory at the time of release.

DDD's Gordos were nerfed dispite already being bad in 1v1, Luigi was buffed into top tiers, Palutena lost a few things like the lingering Usmash, Mac's recovery and Jab were nerfed, Pac lost his Bair Hydrant, ect. None of these make any sense whatsoever in a 1v1 environment.

I'm really, REALLY starting to think the Charge Shot that you encounter is an entirely different monster than the very meh attack i'm used to that takes 10 years to charge up, clashes with the most ridiculous projectiles, and doesn't kill nearly as fast as you are pretending it does.

I must be missing your point entirely. Because i'm not understanding how in either of these scenarios, taking players out of the equation creates a JUSTIFIABLE situation of imbalance to the point of half the roster (or guns in this case) being terrible.

Sakurai surely does some absolutely stupid things with this series, but i don't think he's nearly quite as dumb (or shortsighted) as you are desperately trying to make him out to be.

Play more FFAs then we'll talk. You're like that guy that was convinced Samus was good in 1v1s because she's good in FFAs...

Balancing for 1v1s is like balancing for the Solo modes. It's a side mode and highly unimportant.

Look at the clones besides Lucina. All of their major problems disappear in FFAs. Dorf, Doc and Falco don't need to be as mobile anymore, Lucas's grab works since everybody's distracted, and Pit's arrows are irrelevant. All of a sudden the clones are equal to the originals. Is that a coincidence too?

 

[Dsull]

Not sure why people are claiming all chargeshot characters suck.

I use Lucario and Samus a lot and i see plenty of Robins. I dont spam it, in fact i rarely charge it unless i knocked you too far away to chase or the match just started. Its a killshot and nothing else to me. Only time i go spammy with Samus is if someone pulls a camper mode on me first and i want revenge lol.
You could technically consider DK a chargeshot too since Giant Punch n all, but thats got a range limitation lol

At any rate, the game was intended to be FFA to begin with and the community ran with it as a competitive 1v1 sport. I dont doubt Nintendo pays attention to that fanbase, since we have For Glory after all and im actually thankful for that since i rarely find people IRL to play this game, but they have to add characters/balance thats meant for the FFA side not the 1v1 side. Items, anyone? Characters with reflect abilities suddenly get VERY strong in FFA because of items being chucked around for example. Even the few characters with dependable reflect abilities seldom use it in 1v1 because if you read wrong it leaves you WAY open for punishment. I love it when i play Samus and people try to predict my charge shot and i just never...ever...fire it until im point blank and theyre above 100% lol.

 

[ARGHETH]

How is your statement any more outrageous?

Not sure why people are claiming all chargeshot characters suck.

...Because in 1v1 they do? Samus, Robin, and Mewtwo are generally agreed to be low mid at best, while Lucario is usually placed around mid tier. I have no idea about Gunner, though.

 

[LightLV]

Play more FFAs then we'll talk. You're like that guy that was convinced Samus was good in 1v1s because she's good in FFAs...

You say that, and then turn around with this

Balancing for 1v1s is like balancing for the Solo modes. It's a side mode and highly unimportant.

You're just typing stuff at this point. Do you actually believe what you're implying, or are you just reluctant to admit you aren't making any sense.

Look at the clones besides Lucina. All of their major problems disappear in FFAs. Dorf, Doc and Falco don't need to be as mobile anymore, Lucas's grab works since everybody's distracted, and Pit's arrows are irrelevant. All of a sudden the clones are equal to the originals. Is that a coincidence too?

Lucas' grab works because....everybody is distracted? I think you need to maybe stop playing FFAs.

This post is so smash-community typical that I almost want to frame it. Good god.