Do patches scare you?

[1FC0]

Sakurai balances for intermediate players, hence the stone example. Intermediates play which mode more?

The mode were almost nobody even knows how the game is balance wise.

 

[The_Devious]

Pikachu is a Top Tier char.

Yes he's very good, but there's nothing broken about pikachu

 

[ARGHETH]

Top tier character =/= broken, though. Most people agree that Pikachu's top tier.

 

[Putuk]

Honestly, I enjoy seeing top tiers getting hit again and again with nerfs.
It's a delight from the perspective of a low-tier main.

 

[Snackss]

I mixed up my words in another post. I meant to say someone can be overpowered without being broken, obviously someone who's broken would be overpowered.

 

[The_Devious]

Top tier character =/= broken, though. Most people agree that Pikachu's top tier.

what is broken about pikachu?

 

[ARGHETH]

...
You said he wasn't top tier.
People said he was.
You then said that Pikachu isn't broken.
I simply assumed that you were connecting top tier and broken, so I was just saying that comparison isn't true. I never said Pikachu was broken.

 

[Luig]

Well, I main sonic, Luigi and Ike, and I wouldn't mind Luigi getting nerfed a bit, but I hate all the whiny reddit posts about sonic when they don't know you can punch the spin. And when they complain about campy sonics, they don't realize the more he gets nerfed, the more campy we have to play.

 

[LancerStaff]

The mode were almost nobody even knows how the game is balance wise.

So? They can't tell, but it still effects them.

 

[Smashifer]

I'm terrified of patches, but not because I'm afraid of getting nerfed, but because I'm afraid of not getting at least some extremely necessary buffs. For instance, I really, really want Wii Fit to get a buff to some things, but I'm afraid the Smash Patchers might see her as too "irrelevant" compared to the rest of the roster.

Also, obligatory "muh replays"

 

[LightLV]

I feel like this is a mistake people make much too often with Smash Bros. character discussion. "They're good but they're beatable." Obviously they're beatable. There hasn't been a widely-used competitive fighting game with an "unbeatable" character since Akuma was first playable. Somebody can be broken without being overpowered, and they can be overpowered while still having a weakness.

Yeah, "not broken" is a silly concept when talking about top-tier characters in general. "Broken" is only ever subjective to the rest of the cast as a whole, and Top-Tiers are already above the rest of the cast for a reason. Being toptier and "not broken" is saying absolutely nothing.

Stuff

Don't feel like replying individually, but just stepping back into that argument to say, you still don't make any sense

 

[LancerStaff]

Yeah, "not broken" is a silly concept when talking about top-tier characters in general. "Broken" is only ever subjective to the rest of the cast as a whole, and Top-Tiers are already above the rest of the cast for a reason. Being toptier and "not broken" is saying absolutely nothing.



Don't feel like replying individually, but just stepping back into that argument to say, you still don't make any sense

Balancing the game around what it was made for doesn't make sense now?

 

[Dagon97]

I want Sm4sh to be a game of good characters and not one of bad characters, since there have been way more buffs than nerfs, Sm4sh is going in the right direction or at least for the most part. But a patch could distribute a buff or a nerf, As a Sheik main it is scary.

 

[LightLV]

Balancing the game around what it was made for doesn't make sense now?

how many people have to tell you that basing your whole argument around this massive assumption is silly before you get it

 

[LancerStaff]

how many people have to tell you that basing your whole argument around this massive assumption is silly before you get it

Not an assumption when Sakurai is trying to spell it out for you without stepping on your toes, and the outright fact that FFAs are more balanced.

 

[ShionKaito438]

Ever since the Mewtwo patch, I am indeed terrified of patches.
I used to secondary Diddy, but the nerfs to him completely changed his playstyle (imo). I dropped him soon after.
I'd hate to have to drop another character because of a patch.

I'm surprised ZeRo was able to win EVO with him.

 

[LightLV]

Ever since the Mewtwo patch, I am indeed terrified of patches.
I used to secondary Diddy, but the nerfs to him completely changed his playstyle (imo). I dropped him soon after.
I'd hate to have to drop another character because of a patch.

I'm surprised ZeRo was able to win EVO with him.

Why? His playstyle didn't change at all, everything he could do before he can do now. He just kills you a bit slower. They could nerf every single one of shiek's strikes by 1.5% and she'd still be S-tier. Until they nerf what makes him good (saftey, options, autocancel) Diddy aint going nowhere.

Not an assumption when Sakurai is trying to spell it out for you without stepping on your toes, and the outright fact that FFAs are more balanced.

You're in denial, and continuing this argument with you is absolutely pointless. Completely casual players who indulge in things like FFAs more than 2v2 or 1v1 don't give a singular cold **** about subtle things like Luma losing 5 HP,or Falco gaining "autolink" on his Nair, or Lucina/Marth having an angle change on a jab....they aren't deep enough into the game to ever notice, and even if they did, they will never care.

Seems like alot of nuanced work going into something Sakurai doesn't care about or balance for.

Not to mention Zelda and Samus both getting pretty "significant" buffs to moves that kill up to 20% earlier (up smashes no less, which can't be mitigated.) The reason they suck still exists, but Samus and Zelda have sucked in every recent game for the same reasons, including Melee.

And for some reason, i doubt you'd spout the same "balance for FFA" nonsense if we were to bring Melee up. So what is it you're even trying to say again?

 

[ARGHETH]

The reason they suck still exists, but Samus and Zelda have sucked in every recent game for the same reasons, including Melee.

Maybe the wiki's wrong again, but isn't Samus 11th in Melee the tier list?

 

[ChikoLad]

I'm not scared of them, but they irritate me.

Since I am a Rosalina main and that is obviously gonna inspire salt in some people, let me be clear that I actually think Rosalina is better overall now than she was pre-1.0.4. Her skill floor got much higher but so did her skill ceiling with the changes it brought. Those changes are actually part of why I am able to develop a certain tech I have been working on for her (I have not revealed it yet, and won't be doing so here. I'm working on a video for it though. It will be done when it's done, I don't have completely free time to work on it).

Most of the nerfs she got felt like pandering rather than actual necessary nerfs, and didn't really effect her in the hands of an actually good player, such as the constant shifting around of Luma's HP, or the Luma respawn timer extension. I was already good at protecting Luma and making him last before that patch. The patch only encouraged me to get better at it (and gave me tools to make it easier, such as Luma Shot getting faster recovery time, being given more variance in the charge, and the Luma callback animation getting faster and getting a little windbox).

Most patches have been like that for characters - changing and shifting around random things, but not making any meaningful change. I personally think the high and top tiers are fine as they are right now, even Sheik and Rosalina. What I want to see is lower tiers getting buffs, and see how that improves them. Charizard, Ike, and Link are prime examples of the balance team doing things right. They got buffs that were a big deal and really improved them. decreasing or increasing Luma's HP by 3 or 5 is not a good example of balancing. Changes like that change virtually nothing and come across as "oh well people want Luma nerfed, so obviously if we just make a small change that is technically ever so slightly a nerf even if it is inconsequential, people will be happy, right?".

Also I feel people have become too reliant on patches. I stand by that pre-patch Diddy was a surmountable problem for the community. I personally never had trouble with him as a Rosalina main, and Rosalina mains always complained about him. That has to mean something. I seriously think Smash 4 players are lazy, and also rely too much on what "top players" say (which is stupid, because they thrive on meta stagnation). Why get better with a character when you can just wait for Daddy Sakurai and his team to nerf the characters you have trouble with, or buff the character you are subpar with? Granted, there are some characters that deserve buffs as they have obvious non-sensical deisgn elements, but people are too quick to ask for buffs and nerfs before really trying to get better at the game.

TL;DR they don't scare me but they kinda make the game less fun to practice and discuss in a competitive context.

 

[LancerStaff]

You're in denial, and continuing this argument with you is absolutely pointless. Completely casual players who indulge in things like FFAs more than 2v2 or 1v1 don't give a singular cold **** about subtle things like Luma losing 5 HP,or Falco gaining "autolink" on his Nair, or Lucina/Marth having an angle change on a jab....they aren't deep enough into the game to ever notice, and even if they did, they will never care.

Seems like alot of nuanced work going into something Sakurai doesn't care about or balance for.

Not to mention Zelda and Samus both getting pretty "significant" buffs to moves that kill up to 20% earlier (up smashes no less, which can't be mitigated.) The reason they suck still exists, but Samus and Zelda have sucked in every recent game for the same reasons, including Melee.

And for some reason, i doubt you'd spout the same "balance for FFA" nonsense if we were to bring Melee up. So what is it you're even trying to say again?

Because I totally said 100% of balance changes were for FFAs, and that Sakurai didn't care. Just doesn't give it priority over FFAs. How many times have I said this? How many times have you just ignored this?

Melee was balanced for FFAs, but the balance itself didn't even have any focus to begin with. He didn't care until Brawl's online showed him otherwise.

What am saying? That Sakurai balances Smash around FFAs first, like I've been saying this past week. Or are you going to go "lel ur dumb and don make sens" again? You claim I ignore things, but when I call you out you turn tail and don't bother pointing them out. I'm convinced they don't exist.

 

[Raijinken]

Why? His playstyle didn't change at all, everything he could do before he can do now. He just kills you a bit slower. They could nerf every single one of shiek's strikes by 1.5% and she'd still be S-tier. Until they nerf what makes him good (saftey, options, autocancel) Diddy aint going nowhere.



You're in denial, and continuing this argument with you is absolutely pointless. Completely casual players who indulge in things like FFAs more than 2v2 or 1v1 don't give a singular cold **** about subtle things like Luma losing 5 HP,or Falco gaining "autolink" on his Nair, or Lucina/Marth having an angle change on a jab....they aren't deep enough into the game to ever notice, and even if they did, they will never care.

Seems like alot of nuanced work going into something Sakurai doesn't care about or balance for.

Not to mention Zelda and Samus both getting pretty "significant" buffs to moves that kill up to 20% earlier (up smashes no less, which can't be mitigated.) The reason they suck still exists, but Samus and Zelda have sucked in every recent game for the same reasons, including Melee.

And for some reason, i doubt you'd spout the same "balance for FFA" nonsense if we were to bring Melee up. So what is it you're even trying to say again?

Contrary to popular belief, just because someone is casual doesn't mean they don't know basic game properties. It just means they don't care enough to enter a tournament on them. Even casual players have a grasp, at some level, of kill moves and ending lag, as well as attack reliability, and sometimes combo feasibility. Seeing how many days it takes our competitive community to even find changes in a game, it's little to be wondered that players who don't play often (not to be confused with casual but regular players) might not notice a three-frame earlier startup on a move. But some kid (or adult) who plays on a regular basis alone or with a sibling will still feel balance changes even if they can't pin them down.

 

[Rikkhan]

Casuals would probably not notiice these changes but certainly the data will, something like FG falcon win rate 55% -> 52%, if a buff its considerably good they probably think "man I getting better" not knowing that the character is better.

 

[ShionKaito438]

Why? His playstyle didn't change at all, everything he could do before he can do now. He just kills you a bit slower. They could nerf every single one of shiek's strikes by 1.5% and she'd still be S-tier. Until they nerf what makes him good (saftey, options, autocancel) Diddy aint going nowhere.

His down throw and up air behave completely different. For people with playstyles centered around those two moves (like myself), the nerfs are a pretty big deal.

I'm not saying he's terrible now, ZeRo proved that wrong at EVO. Even prior to that, it was still the general opinion that he was still a viable character. What surprised me most about ZeRo's win was that he finished with a hoo-hah, which is ridiculously hard to pull off post-patch.

 

[Raijinken]

His down throw and up air behave completely different. For people with playstyles centered around those two moves (like myself), the nerfs are a pretty big deal.

I'm not saying he's terrible now, ZeRo proved that wrong at EVO. Even prior to that, it was still the general opinion that he was still a viable character.

Removing no-brain kill combos that were arguably abusive is a large part of Sakurai's balance paradigm. Anything overly-centralizing has essentially been patched (Link's jab infinite, Zamus's footstool infinite, HooHah), regardless of difficulty.

Diddy remains a strong character because he still has excellent everything-else-but-vertical-recovery. Which, in a lot of ways, shows how big a role basic character design plays in tier. No top-tier has outright lost viability from nerfs. And similarly, we've yet to really see any lower-tier make a significant viability jump due to patch changes. Ike's close to making it, and some other underexplored characters may make it some day, but ultimately very little has happened at the higher level of play due to the patches.

 

[LightLV]

Contrary to popular belief, just because someone is casual doesn't mean they don't know basic game properties. It just means they don't care enough to enter a tournament on them. Even casual players have a grasp, at some level, of kill moves and ending lag, as well as attack reliability, and sometimes combo feasibility. Seeing how many days it takes our competitive community to even find changes in a game, it's little to be wondered that players who don't play often (not to be confused with casual but regular players) might not notice a three-frame earlier startup on a move. But some kid (or adult) who plays on a regular basis alone or with a sibling will still feel balance changes even if they can't pin them down.

Well that just exposes another issue with the terms "casual" and "hardcore". Do you have to enter tournaments to be hardcore? Is it impossible to enter a tournament without knowing deeper mechanics of the game? At what point do you draw the line? When it comes down to it with fighting games (or all types of games really), it really just your thought process. A player who has no concept of what a Hitbox or hurtbox is will view movesets very differently than one who does. A player with no concept of what a frame is (and therefore the logic of the game) won't really understand frame data. A player who doesn't understand the point of hitstun probably doesn't even really know what a combo is.

Doesn't mean they can't still DO things, of course they can. It's just, the way they tick is a bit differently in regards to how they go about playing.

His down throw and up air behave completely different. For people with playstyles centered around those two moves (like myself), the nerfs are a pretty big deal.

I'm not saying he's terrible now, ZeRo proved that wrong at EVO. Even prior to that, it was still the general opinion that he was still a viable character.

I mean...he still gets better setups on his throws than the majority of the cast. Yeah he's certainly worse, but...yeah, he won Evo lol. He still has ******** frames on his moves and is super safe.

 

[ChikoLad]

Removing no-brain kill combos that were arguably abusive is a large part of Sakurai's balance paradigm. Anything overly-centralizing has essentially been patched (Link's jab infinite, Zamus's footstool infinite, HooHah), regardless of difficulty.

Diddy remains a strong character because he still has excellent everything-else-but-vertical-recovery. Which, in a lot of ways, shows how big a role basic character design plays in tier. No top-tier has outright lost viability from nerfs. And similarly, we've yet to really see any lower-tier make a significant viability jump due to patch changes. Ike's close to making it, and some other underexplored characters may make it some day, but ultimately very little has happened at the higher level of play due to the patches.

I would say Charizard made a pretty big jump.

He was easily a contender for worst character in the game pre-nerf and without customs. His buffs have given him a huge boost in the latest patch, though, including giving him a good combo throw, and arguably the best KO throw in the game on any stage with platforms, which are huge pros for him. I would say he could be a mid-tier now if people showed his stuff, and that's a hell of a lot better than where he was before.

 

[Raijinken]

I would say Charizard made a pretty big jump.

He was easily a contender for worst character in the game pre-nerf and without customs. His buffs have given him a huge boost in the latest patch, though, including giving him a good combo throw, and arguably the best KO throw in the game on any stage with platforms, which are huge pros for him. I would say he could be a mid-tier now if people showed his stuff, and that's a hell of a lot better than where he was before.

I agree, but I also draw the viability line at the border between high and low tier. But just like Diddy went from Awesome to Less Awesome, Charizard just went from Bad to Less Bad, at least as far as the general metagame goes. And he still lacks the tools needed to compete with the existing high tiers.

 

[ChikoLad]

I agree, but I also draw the viability line at the border between high and low tier. But just like Diddy went from Awesome to Less Awesome, Charizard just went from Bad to Less Bad, at least as far as the general metagame goes. And he still lacks the tools needed to compete with the existing high tiers.

That's the thing though, I would say Charizard has potential to be viable. At the very least, he would be a good pick if you practiced with him, and used him whenever you lost a match and were able to counter pick a stage, bringing the fight to Battlefield or something. It won't work against all characters perfectly, but Charizard is very strong on stages like Battlefield now.

 

[Raijinken]

That's the thing though, I would say Charizard has potential to be viable. At the very least, he would be a good pick if you practiced with him, and used him whenever you lost a match and were able to counter pick a stage, bringing the fight to Battlefield or something. It won't work against all characters perfectly, but Charizard is very strong on stages like Battlefield now.

He's got potential to make that jump, I agree, but at the same time, allowing a Charizard to go to Battlefield is about like letting a Mac player go to Final Destination, or a Sheik go to Smashville. It may work against an underinformed player a few times, but ultimately if people deny him his best stage choices (probably Battlefield and T&C in the current ruleset), I think he's a bit too dependent on that stage selection to make the jump quite yet.

 

[Snackss]

His down throw and up air behave completely different. For people with playstyles centered around those two moves (like myself), the nerfs are a pretty big deal.

I'm not saying he's terrible now, ZeRo proved that wrong at EVO. Even prior to that, it was still the general opinion that he was still a viable character. What surprised me most about ZeRo's win was that he finished with a hoo-hah, which is ridiculously hard to pull off post-patch.

No it's not. Up throw up air is still guaranteed up to 90% on quite a few characters. It's a viable true combo KO option with Rage.

And why do people seriously think Charizard was ever the worst character? I don't know if he's good, but why would he ever be the worst outside of the obviously terrible top tier matchups?

 

[Dsull]

Probably because of his self-damage attack. Both because it hurts you in general, which afaik is the only one in the game since Pichu, and also because if you miss ohhh man is it bad for you.

The insanely few charizards i see that actually are good almost never use that move, and when they do it catches me off guard so i never react fast enough and it either kills me or sets up for a good edgeguard chance.

Not saying that puts him as top tier if you just learn how to use that one ability properly, but it does keep him off the baddies list. I'd rate him slightly lower than DK....only slightly

 

[ShionKaito438]

No it's not. Up throw up air is still guaranteed up to 90% on quite a few characters. It's a viable true combo KO option with Rage.

And why do people seriously think Charizard was ever the worst character? I don't know if he's good, but why would he ever be the worst outside of the obviously terrible top tier matchups?

Let me repeat, I said the moves behave completely different, which means your playstyle needs to change for you to continue to play Diddy post-patch.

 

[Snackss]

If you constantly used Diddy Kong's up air to hit people on the ground then you would have to adapt, and Diddy's up air doubling as a forward air (in addition to having a great forward air) was ridiculous anyway. He still has combos out of grab until almost KO percent, you simply switch to up throw instead of down throw after about 20%. The real difference is in landing KO's, where you need to get banana punishes and down tilt setups rather than just one air dodge to KO.

 

[LightLV]

And why do people seriously think Charizard was ever the worst character? I don't know if he's good, but why would he ever be the worst outside of the obviously terrible top tier matchups?

I have no idea, he has never been that bad. He has alot of tools and can kill extremely early, especially now that he has a killthrow.

His hurtbox size and weight makes him a playground for the top-tiers of course, but other than that, I don't see him with the massive disadvantages that other characters come equipped with in his tier spot.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

This games meta hasn't ever had a chance to settle down. With customs going in and out of legality, patches mixing things up every month, and DLC characters and stages poping up, this is the most volital meta yet, because nobudy really has a firm grasp of what is what.

I for one kinda like this. Nobudy is discouraged from using a character because it's seen as "bad" because this charazard is different from the one you fought last week. It seems more people are more likely to pick their favorite character rather than a top tier because besides ditty and shiek, the rest of the top tiers keep getting shuffled. It feels like a game that more characters are viable in.

People are scared to pick the top tiers because they are scared of nerfs so they pick high/mid tiers, the only issue is that nobudy is completely sure who is what lol.

 

[Powerman293]

I like patches because it gives a chance to really mix things up right now for a lot of characters. Whenever a character gets a buff, people investigate what they can do with them again. It keeps the meta fresh for now, and minimizes my fears of what I like to call the "Top Tier Snowball effect" where everyone only investigates and experiments with Diddy and Sheik, leading to their metas being the best developed but not anyone else.

 

[mario123007]

I think future patches should mostly buff the low tier characters rather than nerfing high tier characters.

 

[ARGHETH]

...that's what they've mostly been doing.

 

[mario123007]

...that's what they've mostly been doing.

1.1.0 patch did the most.

 

[Snackss]

Ever since 3DS, Diddy Kong, Sonic, and now Luigi a tiny bit are the only top tiers who have been nerfed, and deservedly so, so I don't know why people keep saying "don't nerf the high tiers, buff everyone else!" The top tiers are outliers who had strengths that far outweighed everyone else. Diddy's absurd KO power off of easy setups, Rosalina's original inability to be grabbed and everything else about her, Sheik completely dominating the neutral and basically being at no disadvantage ever at any point. Characters need to be balanced around high tier: Strong and cohesive movesets and attributes but still with distinct disadvantages. Not top tier, who are basically great in every category except for the ones that they are absurd in. Sheik still needs to be nerfed, and then we'll see. I don't think anyone can move into that spot, even if Rosalina will probably be the undisputed strongest character.

And to address the "someone else will become top tier" argument, there's always going to be a top tier because that's just how lists work. The goal is to make it so that there are compelling reasons to choose characters other than that top tier. The problem is when characters who do everything better than everyone else (Sheik) are the top tier.