Do patches scare you?

[LancerStaff]

You say that, and then turn around with this



You're just typing stuff at this point. Do you actually believe what you're implying, or are you just reluctant to admit you aren't making any sense.



Lucas' grab works because....everybody is distracted? I think you need to maybe stop playing FFAs.

This post is so smash-community typical that I almost want to frame it. Good god.

Yep, believe in it 100%. Anybody who thinks Sakurai is balancing solely for 1v1s is a looney, and FFAs are much more balanced. Been saying this since I joined. Actually, you're the only person who's stuck around for more then two posts and didn't agree with me.

Yes, just like the fully charged Flare Blade or Peanut Popgun. Try playing a round with some Lucas CPUs and see how many times you get grabbed. Or, yaknow, just admit that FFAs are fundamentally different from 1v1s.

 

[neohopeSTF]

Yep, believe in it 100%. Anybody who thinks Sakurai is balancing solely for 1v1s is a looney, and FFAs are much more balanced. Been saying this since I joined. Actually, you're the only person who's stuck around for more then two posts and didn't agree with me.

Yes, just like the fully charged Flare Blade or Peanut Popgun. Try playing a round with some Lucas CPUs and see how many times you get grabbed. Or, yaknow, just admit that FFAs are fundamentally different from 1v1s.

Saying that Sakurai balances soley for FFAs is pretty looney too.

 

[LancerStaff]

Saying that Sakurai balances soley for FFAs is pretty looney too.

I'm not seeing anybody who said that, so yeah.

 

[neohopeSTF]

I'm not seeing anybody who said that, so yeah.

So what characters has he changed to be better in FFAs? Was Ike or Falco that bad? Was duck hunt's nair so bad that it needed to be given less landing lag? How do you even balance FFAs?

 

[1FC0]

I dislike how R.O.B. has gotten nothing but nerfs even though almost no one uses him.

 

[LancerStaff]

So what characters has he changed to be better in FFAs? Was Ike or Falco that bad? Was duck hunt's nair so bad that it needed to be given less landing lag? How do you even balance FFAs?

To quote myself:
"Who's to say Mac was perfectly balanced for FFAs to begin with? Or Luigi and his small Fair hitbox, or Palutena's lingering Usmash, or Greninja in general, or DDD's Gordos? Like, half the things in the very first patch changed plenty of characters' FFA performance."

And again, never said that everything was a change for FFAs, so I dunno why you're bringing up Duck Hunt...

 

[neohopeSTF]

To quote myself:
"Who's to say Mac was perfectly balanced for FFAs to begin with? Or Luigi and his small Fair hitbox, or Palutena's lingering Usmash, or Greninja in general, or DDD's Gordos? Like, half the things in the very first patch changed plenty of characters' FFA performance."

And again, never said that everything was a change for FFAs, so I dunno why you're bringing up Duck Hunt...

How do you balance FFA

 

[LancerStaff]

How do you balance FFA

Nerfing Mac's recovery and Jab, DDD's Gordos, Palutena's Usmash and some other things.

 

[neohopeSTF]

Nerfing Mac's recovery and Jab, DDD's Gordos, Palutena's Usmash and some other things.

Do those even effect FFAs? Those where problems people had in 1v1s. You have no proof that 1v1 is just a "side mode". You say the game is primarily balanced around FFAs when all the buffs are pretty much thought with 1v1s in mind.

 

[Saviorr]

I'm not seeing anybody who said that, so yeah.

You said that...
You've posted multiple times on this thread saying that Sakurai balances the game based on free for all

 

[LancerStaff]

Do those even effect FFAs? Those where problems people had in 1v1s. You have no proof that 1v1 is just a "side mode". You say the game is primarily balanced around FFAs when all the buffs are pretty much thought with 1v1s in mind.

Nerfing a character's main form of recovery doesn't effect FFAs? Uh, yeah, it does.

Most of the changes made were for 1v1s, yes. But we still have absolutely terrible characters like Samus and WFT running around getting virtually nothing. Why don't some of the worst characters get buffs? Because FFAs come first, and they're nowhere near the worst.

You said that...
You've posted multiple times on this thread saying that Sakurai balances the game based on free for all

I never said Sakurai solely balanced SSB4 around FFA. It's just why we have characters like Samus and WFT getting nothing and Rosalina and Shiek barely getting nerfed if at all. Some characters like Charizard can get significant buffs in 1v1s without effecting their FFA performance in any major way, but it can only help so much.

 

[neohopeSTF]

Nerfing a character's main form of recovery doesn't effect FFAs? Uh, yeah, it does.

Most of the changes made were for 1v1s, yes. But we still have absolutely terrible characters like Samus and WFT running around getting virtually nothing. Why don't some of the worst characters get buffs? Because FFAs come first, and they're nowhere near the worst.



I never said Sakurai solely balanced SSB4 around FFA. It's just why we have characters like Samus and WFT getting nothing and Rosalina and Shiek barely getting nerfed if at all. Some characters like Charizard can get significant buffs in 1v1s without effecting their FFA performance in any major way, but it can only help so much.

All the patch data is almost soley based on 1v1 For Glory.
> most of the changes where made for 1v1
> FFAs come first.
Do you know what you are saying?

 

[Saviorr]

Do those even effect FFAs? Those where problems people had in 1v1s. You have no proof that 1v1 is just a "side mode". You say the game is primarily balanced around FFAs when all the buffs are pretty much thought with 1v1s in mind.

@ LancerStaff clearly doesn't understand the competitive meta game if he thinks Gordos were nerfed to make the game more balanced competitively.
When Sakurai was asked about how he balanced the game he never said that he bases it on FFA. Nerfs to DDD and other low tiers are only done to make to game more accessible to casual players. That does NOT mean the nerfs made the game more balanced at a competitive level.

 

[neohopeSTF]

@ LancerStaff clearly doesn't understand the competitive meta game if he thinks Gordos were nerfed to make the game more balanced competitively.
When Sakurai was asked about how he balanced the game he never said that he bases it on FFA. Nerfs to DDD and other low tiers are only done to make to game more accessible to casual players. That does NOT mean the nerfs made the game more balanced at a competitive level.

The thing is the patches looked based on FG data. Most of the people complaining about Mac where talking about 1v1s. Sakurai says alot of things then actually doesn't do them. He said so many lies over the course of smash 4 pre-release its hilarious.

 

[1FC0]

Balancing FFA's is stupid. FFA people do not know which character is good or bad. They often have an opinion, but it is often wrong since they just mess around and know very little about the game or the character that they use. For example in SSBB Ike was very good in random online since you just had to charge Fsmash and wait for people to walk into it. Did Ike really need to be nerfed for the stupidity of the FFA people?

How are you going to balance when everyone plays like an idiot and where there are no fair rules anyway? IMO Sakurai should bases balance patches around 1v1 matches because at least there it really matters.

Then again FG 1v1 may also not be the best mode to base balance patches on, since most players there are horrible too.

 

[Saviorr]

The thing is the patches looked based on FG data.

Oh GOD, I hope that's not true lol.

This is from an interview with Sakurai. http://smashboards.com/threads/the-act-of-balancing”-sakurai-famitsu-column-translation.405954/
"Furthermore, if I went with what is fair according to advanced players, the beginners wouldn’t be able to keep up. For example, Kirby’s Stone attack probably won’t hit a player above intermediate skill level, but if I made it more powerful, it would destroy beginners."

 

[neohopeSTF]

Oh GOD, I hope that's not true lol.

This is from an interview with Sakurai. http://smashboards.com/threads/the-act-of-balancing”-sakurai-famitsu-column-translation.405954/
"Furthermore, if I went with what is fair according to advanced players, the beginners wouldn’t be able to keep up. For example, Kirby’s Stone attack probably won’t hit a player above intermediate skill level, but if I made it more powerful, it would destroy beginners."

To quote from the article "In addition to the playtesters’ daily impressions, the team also considers results from online battles, as well as opinions they find about characters on the Internet. Then, using all of this data, they propose balance adjustments." I feel like this means the data they look at for 1v1s is for glory and most of the opinions online I see tend to be from people playing For Glory saying something is overpowered. I remember early 3DS Gordos, Palu Up Smash, and def Little mac where all considered over powered. I do think FFAs might play some factor but I believe a majority of patches are focused on 1v1s.

 

[LancerStaff]

All the patch data is almost soley based on 1v1 For Glory.
> most of the changes where made for 1v1
> FFAs come first.
Do you know what you are saying?

The overall balance is for FFAs and won't change significantly overall. Sure, there's been more changes for 1v1s post release, but the actual balance overall is for FFAs. What happened to that viable Samus and Kirby from Smashfest?

@ LancerStaff clearly doesn't understand the competitive meta game if he thinks Gordos were nerfed to make the game more balanced competitively.
When Sakurai was asked about how he balanced the game he never said that he bases it on FFA. Nerfs to DDD and other low tiers are only done to make to game more accessible to casual players. That does NOT mean the nerfs made the game more balanced at a competitive level.

Never said every change was for competitive balance. Will you actually read what I say and stop making things up?

The thing is the patches looked based on FG data. Most of the people complaining about Mac where talking about 1v1s. Sakurai says alot of things then actually doesn't do them. He said so many lies over the course of smash 4 pre-release its hilarious.

Sakurai said Mac was the biggest loser and nerfed him anyway. How is that balancing 1v1s?

Chances are that Sakurai's "lies" you're talking about actually never existed. Like no clones and no more balance patches, they're just completely made up. The only thing he "lied" about was an adventure mode which he then later said was reworked into something else.

Balancing FFA's is stupid. FFA people do not know which character is good or bad. They often have an opinion, but it is often wrong since they just mess around and know very little about the game or the character that they use. For example in SSBB Ike was very good in random online since you just had to charge Fsmash and wait for people to walk into it. Did Ike really need to be nerfed for the stupidity of the FFA people?

How are you going to balance when everyone plays like an idiot and where there are no fair rules anyway? IMO Sakurai should bases balance patches around 1v1 matches because at least there it really matters.

Then again FG 1v1 may also not be the best mode to base balance patches on, since most players there are horrible too.

Why should Sakurai unbalance the main mode of play?

To quote from the article "In addition to the playtesters’ daily impressions, the team also considers results from online battles, as well as opinions they find about characters on the Internet. Then, using all of this data, they propose balance adjustments." I feel like this means the data they look at for 1v1s is for glory and most of the opinions online I see tend to be from people playing For Glory saying something is overpowered. I remember early 3DS Gordos, Palu Up Smash, and def Little mac where all considered over powered. I do think FFAs might play some factor but I believe a majority of patches are focused on 1v1s.

So Sakurai just nerfed bad characters because of a few complaints? Don't think so, especially when it balanced out FFAs. And he never specified which online modes he took data from, most likely meaning he looks at all of them.

 

[neohopeSTF]

The overall balance is for FFAs and won't change significantly overall. Sure, there's been more changes for 1v1s post release, but the actual balance overall is for FFAs. What happened to that viable Samus and Kirby from Smashfest?



Never said every change was for competitive balance. Will you actually read what I say and stop making things up?



Sakurai said Mac was the biggest loser and nerfed him anyway. How is that balancing 1v1s?

Chances are that Sakurai's "lies" you're talking about actually never existed. Like no clones and no more balance patches, they're just completely made up. The only thing he "lied" about was an adventure mode which he then later said was reworked into something else.



Why should Sakurai unbalance the main mode of play?



So Sakurai just nerfed bad characters because of a few complaints? Don't think so, especially when it balanced out FFAs. And he never specified which online modes he took data from, most likely meaning he looks at all of them.

You don't make any sense anymore, and you wonder why people stop replying after two posts? How where FFAs broken? What characters where too good? Where did you see people think DDD or Palutena where overpowered in FFA? Do you even know the most played character in FFA? How is the main balance of the game for FFAs? You make statements and give no proof of them.

 

[Dsull]

Correct me if im wrong but didnt Sakurai nerf LMac because of the insane amount of people using him in For Glory compared to his terrible win/loss? I remember hearing he nerfed him because he wanted to remove the stereotype that hes easy to use/OP and in reality hes trash so people dont get discouraged when they fail with him.

 

[LancerStaff]

You don't make any sense anymore, and you wonder why people stop replying after two posts? How where FFAs broken? What characters where too good? Where did you see people though DDD or Palutena where overpowered in FFA? Do you even know the most played character in FFA? How is the main balance of the game for FFAs? You make statements and give no proof of them.

Besides those who agreed with me, yes. It's usually me and some others laughing at the idea that Smash is remotely balanced for 1v1s.

I have not once seen anybody complain about the lingering Usmash, and currently it doesn't match the animation. Since she's a bad character in 1v1s, what was the nerf for? Didn't see anybody talk about Gordos either, and now they're significantly worse. Why was Samus nerfed so hard from Smashfest is she wasn't even that good back then? Kirby a little less so, but he got nerfed ten times more then Diddy was. Where are your explanations for these nerfs?

 

[neohopeSTF]

Besides those who agreed with me, yes. It's usually me and some others laughing at the idea that Smash is remotely balanced for 1v1s.

I have not once seen anybody complain about the lingering Usmash, and currently it doesn't match the animation. Since she's a bad character in 1v1s, what was the nerf for? Didn't see anybody talk about Gordos either, and now they're significantly worse. Why was Samus nerfed so hard from Smashfest is she wasn't even that good back then? Kirby a little less so, but he got nerfed ten times more then Diddy was. Where are your explanations for these nerfs?

I admitted Smash wasn't balanced only around 1v1s. Do you even know that those nerfs where for FFAs? You make assumptions with nothing to back them up. What where the nerfs? You give no proof of the nonsense you spit out. Do you even understand how Sakurai or the balancing team works?

 

[LancerStaff]

I admitted Smash wasn't balanced only around 1v1s. But was the game even out yet during Smashfest? Do you even know that those nerfs where for FFAs? You make assumptions with nothing to back them up.

When did you say that, exactly?

No, but when you have a whole group of legendary players, some previously Samus mains, saying she was only okay, I'm inclined to believe them.

Oh, so Samus was too good in 1v1s now. Suuuure.

 

[neohopeSTF]

When did you say that, exactly?

No, but when you have a whole group of legendary players, some previously Samus mains, saying she was only okay, I'm inclined to believe them.

Oh, so Samus was too good in 1v1s now. Suuuure.

Never said Samus was too good in 1v1s LMAO. Stop making stuff up. Look up on the page I said I don't think the game is solely balanced for 1v1s but most of them are 1v1 focused. You still haven't said anything about Kirby. Even then how does the smashfest matter when we are talking about post launch patches? Done with talking about things that have nothing to do with this argument. Also haven't seen anybody agree with you in this thread.(I'm not using this to say I'm right, I just mean you said after two posts you somehow convinced people that you where right, I have not seen this.)

To quote from the article "In addition to the playtesters’ daily impressions, the team also considers results from online battles, as well as opinions they find about characters on the Internet. Then, using all of this data, they propose balance adjustments." I feel like this means the data they look at for 1v1s is for glory and most of the opinions online I see tend to be from people playing For Glory saying something is overpowered. I remember early 3DS Gordos, Palu Up Smash, and def Little mac where all considered over powered. I do think FFAs might play some factor but I believe a majority of patches are focused on 1v1s.

What are we even arguing about anymore? You keep contradicting yourself.

 

[LancerStaff]

Never said Samus was too good in 1v1s LMAO. Stop making stuff up. Look up on the page I said I don't think the game is solely balanced for 1v1s but most of them are 1v1 focused. You still haven't said anything about Kirby. Even then how does the smashfest matter when we are talking about post launch patches? Done with talking about things that have nothing to do with this argument. Also haven't seen anybody agree with you in this thread.(I'm not using this to say I'm right, I just mean you said after two posts you somehow convinced people that you where right, I have not seen this.) What are we even arguing about anymore?

Then why was Samus nerfed at all, if not for FFAs? The fact that she went from "usable" to "complete gutter trash" says a lot about how important FFAs are to Sakurai.

I was never talking about patches alone. I was talking about the overall balance. Smashfest is 100% relevant.

 

[neohopeSTF]

Then why was Samus nerfed at all, if not for FFAs? The fact that she went from "usable" to "complete gutter trash" says a lot about how important FFAs are to Sakurai.

I was never talking about patches alone. I was talking about the overall balance. Smashfest is 100% relevant.

Then why did you bring up Smashfest? To make a point? I thought Samus "charge shot the character" Aran was still good in Smash 4 FFAs? You keep changing your position on every matter just to disagree with me. Can you please make a clear point without changing your position the second I respond back to it. I've proved you wrong but you never respond back to those with any kind of point of defense or anything.

 

[Rikkhan]

more than 1v1 vs FFA, patches are mostly based to benefit casual players, patches based in the competitive scene only happens when something became too relevant like for example diddly/sheik dominance. That's exactly what happens with Samus, you cant make samus strong in competitive without either making a hell for casuals or altering his gameplay. I do have to agree that FG do play a big role in patches.

 

[1FC0]

Why should Sakurai unbalance the main mode of play?

Because balance is barely relevant in a mode mostly based on luck, whereas balance is extremely relevant in competitive Smash where skill and character ability play a huge role.

Besides FFA players barely care about balance. How much discussion do you see about a FFA tierlist? FFA players do not discuss tiers because they do not care. They pick their favorite character and start button mashing. Only competitive players care because only in competitive play do you have a fun metagame where balancing is necesary.

So why would Sakurai sacrifice balance in the modes that depend on good balance to be fun, only to give balance in the modes where nobody cares?

 

[LancerStaff]

Then why did you bring up Smashfest? To make a point? I thought Samus "charge shot the character" Aran was still good in Smash 4 FFAs? You keep changing your position on every matter just to disagree with me. Can you please make a clear point without changing your position the second I respond back to it. I've proved you wrong but you never respond back to those with any kind of point of defense or anything.

Not changing position. My point is if they really cared about 1v1 balance, Samus wouldn't of been touched since Smashfest.

Proved me wrong? About what?

Because balance is barely relevant in a mode mostly based on luck, whereas balance is extremely relevant in competitive Smash where skill and character ability play a huge role.

Besides FFA players barely care about balance. How much discussion do you see about a FFA tierlist? FFA players do not discuss tiers because they do not care. They pick their favorite character and start button mashing. Only competitive players care because only in competitive play do you have a fun metagame where balancing is necesary.

So why would Sakurai sacrifice balance in the modes that depend on good balance to be fun, only to give balance in the modes where nobody cares?

Of course people care about balance in FFAs. It's laughable that anybody would think that people didn't care. Brawl had legitimate balance issues in FFA, and nobody wants to be stuck with an unviable character no matter what the mode. FFAs are played more, so that's what gets the focus.

 

[neohopeSTF]

Not changing position. My point is if they really cared about 1v1 balance, Samus wouldn't of been touched since Smashfest.

Proved me wrong? About what?



Of course people care about balance in FFAs. It's laughable that anybody would think that people didn't care. Brawl had legitimate balance issues in FFA, and nobody wants to be stuck with an unviable character no matter what the mode. FFAs are played more, so that's what gets the focus.

You said people agree with you in this thread agreed with you after two posts, this never happened. You have no proof FFAs are played more. You just said the Smashfest is irrelevant. Stop contradicting yourself and stop cherrypicking quotes out of my posts. (sorry if I cherrypicked from your posts, btw)

 

[LancerStaff]

You said people agree with you in this thread agreed with you after two posts, this never happened. You have no proof FFAs are played more. You just said the Smashfest is irrelevant. Stop contradicting yourself and stop cherrypicking quotes out of my posts. (sorry if I cherrypicked from your posts, btw)

The word "usually" was used, that should be completely obvious considering Sakurai's attitude, didn't say that.

And none of this actually helps your argument, so yeah.

 

[1FC0]

Of course people care about balance in FFAs. It's laughable that anybody would think that people didn't care. Brawl had legitimate balance issues in FFA, and nobody wants to be stuck with an unviable character no matter what the mode. FFAs are played more, so that's what gets the focus.

They might care in very extreme cases but their opinion on what characters are good or bad varies greatly because in reality they have no clue who is good or not thus they would not even notice it if the game was balanced.

Compare that with competitive players who generally have a pretty good consensus and where balance or lack there of not only gets noticed but even has a huge impact on the metagame.

 

[The_Devious]

no, because i don't play top tiers.

 

[Ze Diglett]

Only a little bit, since it seems like Nintendo is mostly paying attention to the people who shout the loudest about certain balancing "issues" (see: Little Mac nerf, R.O.B. up-throw nerf) which means they're probably gonna take away my precious Beep-Boop at some point, but otherwise, I'm all for them. It's practically the only way to prevent Sheik from completely taking over the meta and the only way to go for my secondaries (and) is up anyways

 

[Kenith]

I'm not worried. Nowhere to go but up for my main anyways. T.T

 

[XenoBlur]

no, because i don't play top tiers.

Pikachu is a Top Tier char.

 

[neohopeSTF]

The word "usually" was used, that should be completely obvious considering Sakurai's attitude, didn't say that.

And none of this actually helps your argument, so yeah.

What is my argument? Can you just give up at this point? You have proven nothing and you just spout self-contradicting nonsense. You have never addressed many of the points I brought up and you choose to cherrypick certain parts to fit your argument. This will be last my response. Don't take it as if you have "won" the argument, because I know you will.

 

[LancerStaff]

They might care in very extreme cases but their opinion on what characters are good or bad varies greatly because in reality they have no clue who is good or not thus they would not even notice it if the game was balanced.

Compare that with competitive players who generally have a pretty good consensus and where balance or lack there of not only gets noticed but even has a huge impact on the metagame.

Sakurai balances for intermediate players, hence the stone example. Intermediates play which mode more?

What is my argument? Can you just give up at this point? You have proven nothing and you just spout self-contradicting nonsense. You have never addressed many of the points I brought up and you choose to cherrypick certain parts to fit your argument. This will be last response. Don't take it as if you have "won" the argument, because I know you will.

You're about as clear as mud, but it looks like you're attempting to prove the idea that Sakurai puts any priority in 1v1 balance just because that's what you want it to be. No, I won't. Name one contradiction. I told you to point out what I missed. You forgot the word "my."

 

[neohopeSTF]

Sakurai balances for intermediate players, hence the stone example. Intermediates play which mode more?



You're about as clear as mud, but it looks like you're attempting to prove the idea that Sakurai puts any priority in 1v1 balance just because that's what you want it to be. No, I won't. Name one contradiction. I told you to point out what I missed. You forgot the word "my."

I'm sorry,I literally can't do this anymore. You are a troll. You brought up the Smashfest then said it was irrelevant. YOU SAID THIS, WHY ARE YOU SO SELF CONTRADICTING??? Do you want me to wall of shame every point you made and bold the contradictions you made? Are you that dumb? Do you even know what cherrypicking is? I even said I thought FFAs have some role in patches but they are made for 1v1s. You have been wrong about so many things, you thought every top tier has trouble killing even though its only Shiek, the list goes on. Please stop responding because you don't seem to be able to make coherent argument and just shout random arguments that make no sense with no proof and no logic. (If you want me to give proof for something I said I will) This is the final post of mine on this topic. I hope the mods close this thread.

 

[LancerStaff]

I'm sorry,I literally can't do this anymore. You are a troll. You brought up the Smashfest then said it was irrelevant. YOU SAID THIS, WHY ARE YOU SO SELF CONTRADICTING??? Do you want me to wall of shame every point you made and bold the contradictions you made? Are you that dumb? Do you even know what cherrypicking is? I even said I thought FFAs have some role in patches but they are made for 1v1s. You have been wrong about so many things, you thought every top tier has trouble killing even though its only Shiek, the list goes on. Please stop responding because you don't seem to be able to make coherent argument and just shout random arguments that make no sense with no proof and no logic. (If you want me to give proof for something I said I will)

Quote me when I said Smashfest was irrelevant. Go ahead and quote every "contradiction" if it really drives you that insane. Every single time I tell you to own up you spew out an unintelligible rant, so I really doubt you'll do anything. And I have said that 1v1s are only the focus of patches because FFAs were already balanced, and 1v1 changes won't take priority over the balance of FFAs. Compared to the rest of the cast, yes, top tiers can't get KOs as quick.