Do ever you feel bad?

[saintrage]

You know, when you're playing your pro friends and they've never tackled the IC's before. Then suddenly after you kill them with a forward smash, they respawn, dodge around a bit, and then get grabbed for a 0 - death combo and die at 79 % on their last stock?

I play with some pretty top tier players, they were good at melee and would place fairly well in tournaments, so their not scrubs. I'm still working on my Melee game to get it up to their level. But i went to play last night at our usual smashfests and every time i get a grab with repeat f-throw to f-throw to death, I'd hear groans and moans of displeasure. I almost felt bed; however, note i did not win every match.

But ya, how do your friends feel about you using the IC, the only character who can effectively 0 - death every character in the game (potentially)?

And what is your favorite finisher? Is it the Nana spike off the stage? or something else you've made up.?

I personally like to f-thorw to Nana, to Popo F or U smash. Popo's smashes are so much more powerful than Nana's and I was able to kill marth at around 79% with a half charged Popo fsmash at the edge of battle field. It seems like Popo's knock back with fsmash increases significantly even if you charge it for just half a second, which 've found to be quite usefull.

 

[slacker!]

I used to feel bad, until I talked to Wobbles and he told me they would do the same thing to me if they could. Now I don't feel bad anymore, lol.

My finisher depends on the character. Like bthrow to regrab dthrow to usmash on light characters and the same thing except replaced with fsmash on characters with bad horizontal recoveries like Olimar and Ike (ice blocks > QD).

 

[KRDsonic]

I don't feel bad at all because the person I always play with mains Meta Knight, so I feel like if he gets grabbed by me then he deserves to be chained to death xD. Though he did try getting good with falco for a while before, we played about 10 matches and I was Ice Climbers in each, let's just say he's never going to use falco against my Ice Climbers again xD. It was funny hearing how surprised he was the couple times I got a 0% KO on him xD.

 

[Nintendogs]

I don't really feel bad, because every time I chaingrab my friend he says it is unsportsmanlike and quits.

 

[Pi]

Um...you should feel bad...that's a morally correct response to cheating.

Wobbling was banned in most high end tournaments. This is the equivalent.

If you're in a serious match, don't use it, but if you're just messing around then go ahead. Seriously. It's inescapable. It requires minimal tech skill. And it's extremely easy to set up. How can you not feel bad? Let alone good/proud?

 

[J4pu]

I personally dont think you should feel bad, because in order to use the potentially cheap combos you have to grab them first and have both climbers in close proximity, and while I havent really played a good ice climbers nana seems easily destroyable especially with her huge lag time in shielding
but like i said, ive never played a good one

 

[saintrage]

Um...you should feel bad...that's a morally correct response to cheating.

Wobbling was banned in most high end tournaments. This is the equivalent.

If you're in a serious match, don't use it, but if you're just messing around then go ahead. Seriously. It's inescapable. It requires minimal tech skill. And it's extremely easy to set up. How can you not feel bad? Let alone good/proud?

Ok first of all, your sig is amazing.

Second, in Melee there were other chaingrabs that resulted in 0 to death besides wobbling, but those weren't banned because CGing is part of the IC game. It one of their few outright strengths. Also compared to Melee, they require minimal tech skill. Compared to every other Brawl Character they are the most technical Character in the game. The practice you have to do with them to understand the throws takes time to learn, such as which characters are easier to CG, which ones you need to space more precisely with to CG, and which ones have different timing.

And like it has been said before, CGing is not perfect or easily accomplished. You really do have to practice a lot, and even then you still mess up. It is a lot more difficult than wobbling, so even the how that you compared it to wobbling is faulted by that fact.

Not to mention that Metaknight is one of the harder to CG zzzz...metaknight = New Marth

You also can't forget, it looks pretty impressive to be throwing your opponent around like a rag doll, only to smash them to oblivion. As my friends said. "Wow, thats the first 0 to death Combo i've ever seen in Brawl."

 

[LaserBust]

Kniht iz jus jealous cuz I owned em yesterday :D
- lol im jkin ..

Hmm, Id say no. As stated theres a few prequisites b4 its done, and after that, its still mess-up-able.
Besides, Ive faughten DarkPch... Grabbed twice in entire game, not 2 mention he broke out of the 1st (Was w8in on nana..). Grabbin is actually quite hard..

~ Cc(O)

 

[Pi]

Ok first of all, your sig is amazing.

Second, in Melee there were other chaingrabs that resulted in 0 to death besides wobbling, but those weren't banned because CGing is part of the IC game. It one of their few outright strengths. Also compared to Melee, they require minimal tech skill. Compared to every other Brawl Character they are the most technical Character in the game. The practice you have to do with them to understand the throws takes time to learn, such as which characters are easier to CG, which ones you need to space more precisely with to CG, and which ones have different timing.

And like it has been said before, CGing is not perfect or easily accomplished. You really do have to practice a lot, and even then you still mess up. It is a lot more difficult than wobbling, so even the how that you compared it to wobbling is faulted by that fact.

Not to mention that Metaknight is one of the harder to CG zzzz...metaknight = New Marth

You also can't forget, it looks pretty impressive to be throwing your opponent around like a rag doll, only to smash them to oblivion. As my friends said. "Wow, thats the first 0 to death Combo i've ever seen in Brawl."

Thanks (sig)

What other chaingrabs are you talking about? Marths CG on fast falling characters? DK's Chain grab? Neither resulted in 0-death combo's without the possibility for escape. For marth's and DK's combo to work the opponent had to DI into the finishing blow correctly, leaving at least the small chance that it wouldn't kill you, the IC's just have to hold you there and throw and do a Fsmash or something, inescapable.

You can't call it part of the IC's game, because it WILL be banned in tournies. How are you not understanding this, IT'S INESCAPABLE. I'm not trying to be rude here, but I really don't see how people can defend this. If preformed properly, the opponent will die. Nothing like that was in melee, aside from wobbling, which was banned.

I'll admit that it takes some tech skill to learn some of their CG's, but honestly, in the grand scheme of things if that's all you have to learn to win it's quite minimal.

I did enjoy wobbling my friends in melee, but I would never consider doing it to win a match, nor should you consider any 0-death inescapable CG by the IC's viable in any serious match. It breaks the game.

Kniht iz jus jealous cuz I owned em yesterday :D
- lol im jkin ..

Hmm, Id say no. As stated theres a few prequisites b4 its done, and after that, its still mess-up-able.
Besides, Ive faughten DarkPch... Grabbed twice in entire game, not 2 mention he broke out of the 1st (Was w8in on nana..). Grabbin is actually quite hard..

~ Cc(O)

Lolz samus...

 

[Nintendogs]

Thanks (sig)

What other chaingrabs are you talking about? Marths CG on fast falling characters? DK's Chain grab? Neither resulted in 0-death combo's without the possibility for escape. For marth's and DK's combo to work the opponent had to DI into the finishing blow correctly, leaving at least the small chance that it wouldn't kill you, the IC's just have to hold you there and throw and do a Fsmash or something, inescapable.

You can't call it part of the IC's game, because it WILL be banned in tournies. How are you not understanding this, IT'S INESCAPABLE. I'm not trying to be rude here, but I really don't see how people can defend this. If preformed properly, the opponent will die. Nothing like that was in melee, aside from wobbling, which was banned.

I'll admit that it takes some tech skill to learn some of their CG's, but honestly, in the grand scheme of things if that's all you have to learn to win it's quite minimal.

I did enjoy wobbling my friends in melee, but I would never consider doing it to win a match, nor should you consider any 0-death inescapable CG by the IC's viable in any serious match. It breaks the game.





Lolz samus...

The popo dthrow to nana dair wasnt banned.

 

[Pi]

Hm...could you tech the Popo Dthrow? I know you can tech Fox's Dthrow...

 

[Smasher89]

Kniht- Then you obviously don't play to win, there´s strategies around everything and fully possible to avoid getting grabbed...

 

[Pi]

Kniht- Then you obviously don't play to win, there´s strategies around everything and fully possible to avoid getting grabbed...

Not attacking, at all?

This might have been true for melee with L-canceling but this is brawl, man. It's so ****ing easy to get off a grab. You're grasping at straws here, you're asking for too much from your opponents trying to justify your cheap tactics.

If you could play the perfect game no one would die even at 999%, with smash DI and teching, on top of which you apparently seem to think predicting your opponent is easy. You want someone to avoid getting grabbed? In a 3 stock match, you need to grab your opponent 3 times, and you win. How hard could that possibly be? If they're comming at you, shield, what are they going to do? Double jump back away? You want your matches to be like that?



I'll say this, if people start to perfect the IC's CG and dish out kills DUE to the CG (from a relatively low %) then it will be banned at tournaments. Can you all agree on that? There is no way to counter it once you're caught (if preformed perfectly), and it's unreasonable to expect your opponent not to get grabbed.

If no one is able to get this technique down to a science, then I spose it won't be banned, but that's assuming you're not able to get off 1/2 kills due solely to the CG.

Personally I think it's a ****ty way to play, it breaks the game and it shouldn't be used. It's cheap, requires a minimal amount of tech skill for the end result, and it's not hard enough to set up for it to be acceptable. That's my opinion.

 

[Smasher89]

No, simple spacing and pressure, extreemly quick mashingskillz, tripping and human error are some of the things that can make you escape, to not forget character specific tactics like placing mines with snake and bananas with diddy...

 

[Pi]

No, simple spacing and pressure, extreemly quick mashingskillz, tripping and human error are some of the things that can make you escape, to not forget character specific tactics like placing mines with snake and bananas with diddy...

Spacing and Pressure can only take you so far, at some point you are going to have to be in a position to get grabbed, because no one can play with perfect spacing.

Quick mashingskillz, this makes me wonder, at lower %'s you can break out of grabs pretty fast but at what point does it become impossible for you to button mash fast enough to break out? I guess we will know in time, I still think it's a dirty way to play. I guess I'll leave this thread alone, since the topic wasn't really addressing it's legality.

We'll know in time weather or not it's going to be allowed.

 

[Dan_X]

I don't feel bad at all, as of now, I've only revealed the ICs to a few of my friends (the rest are away at school still). I can't wait to fight them with the ICs. I know one of my friends who's away plays Lucario, unfortunately for him I have the chaingrabs perfected against many characters, including Lucario.

My favorite thing to do, is a really flashy chaingrab. For example, I might dthrow to Nana forward air twice, damaging the enemy so that when I do the alternating grabs it's harder for them to escape, then when I get to the edge, I'll reverse the grab backwards and continue onward, I'll then break from the fancy alternating grabs, do another dthrow to Nana fair, to a Ice lock... push them far enough when I can run at them and grab before they can do anything, then continue this to the edge in which case I can with spike them with Nana... or have Nana throw the enemy into a charged Popo smash...

Obviously If I did that they'd be well into the 100% but overkill is hilarious. My point is, when you get good at the alternating throws and what not, they are very versatile, you can reverse them when need be, and switch them up depending on what you want to do. Also, there are so many ways to finish the enemy once your ready to kill them... I LOVE IT.

ICs FTW! :D

 

[saintrage]

Spacing and Pressure can only take you so far, at some point you are going to have to be in a position to get grabbed, because no one can play with perfect spacing.

Quick mashingskillz, this makes me wonder, at lower %'s you can break out of grabs pretty fast but at what point does it become impossible for you to button mash fast enough to break out? I guess we will know in time, I still think it's a dirty way to play. I guess I'll leave this thread alone, since the topic wasn't really addressing it's legality.

We'll know in time weather or not it's going to be allowed.

I just want to say your not terribly off topic, considering "do you feel bad?" also applies to the legitimacy of the tactic. But i wanted to say if you ever watch a Wobbles or Chu in high end tournament play, they play to win. And in that process they use every chaingrab possible and i see plenty of low percent to death combo's on many characters. I wasn't talking about marth's, or fox's CG's.

Ex. I saw wobbles do a dthrow CG against a fox player and ended up getting him from 20 percent to 130 then smashing him to his death. And thats only vs. Fox. The Dthrow to dair chaingrab works for like half the characters in the game and requires 0 techskill.

If IC become so perfected that every grab = Death then it will be just like Melee in terms of "Don't get grabbed" Only difference is grabbing is easier in Brawl. Just don't paly a character that can be easily grabbed, like G&W 0o

 

[Needle of Juntah]

i just dont understand why IC's havent been banned :/

and yes they should be, even in brawl

 

[Honto-E-Lawl]

i think it really should be banned...
i mean...i was horrible in melee....and even i can partially do some of their super chain grab in brawl....

 

[Dan_X]

I don't think the ICs chain grabs should be banned... They have plenty going against them.

Here are some reasons why the ICs chain-grabs shouldn't be banned...

• They have a so-so approach game. To land a grab, especially with their short grab-range, one must either pull off a shield grab (which is probably the easiest way) or follow up with a grab upon a decent approach.

•They can be separated so easily, as Nana has a slight delay from Popo. When one shields, Popo executes the shield first, then Nana, this delay is problematic in that timing their shields is tricky. Often times when one shields, Popo will have shielded, but Nana who shields a split second later has already been struck by the enemy. The strike could have been a powerful finisher, in which case Nana is dead. As soon as Nana is dead, chances of victory as ICs drops dramatically.

•Without Nana: Solo climber: Much weaker than the combined force, recovery takes a devastating blow, most attacks can be easily shield-blocked, side B for example. Ice blocks aren't as effective as they aren't as spammy. Can't spike with Fair. Can chain grab most enemies till about 30-40%.

•Their air game is about average in my opinion. Neutral air isn't bad. Uair has decent enough knock back, and has nice priority. Fair is good for spiking, but aside from that it's a slow to start attack, and it's easily evaded. Bair is pretty nice, but not as effective as many other characters' Bairs.

The IC chaingrabs are no simple feat. They take a ton of practice, and a wealth of knowledge of the game... Those of you who've mained them in Melee probably got use to them with little trouble in Brawl. There's a huge curve to the ICs in general. For example, a good IC player must be able to execute chaingrabs on every character in the game, and must know which chain grab works best for each character... Not every chaingrab works the same for every character, so there's a ton to learn. Also, one must execute said grab with meticulous input as to avoid any mistakes, and being that we are human, we make mistakes. Even the best IC player will make mistakes from time to time.

For all of the hard work that goes into mastering the chaingrabs, so much more hard work must go into every other aspect of the IC climbers. One must be competent without the use of chaingrabs. With all of that practice, if one can execute the chaingrabs effectively against people and win, why ban them for their hard work?

In the end, a person who's experienced in dealing with the ICs will fair well against them. Not to say they'll always win.... but they'll know to separate the ICs, and kill Nana. Nana is the target, not Popo. There, problem solved, no chain grab potential aside from the half-decent solo climber chain-grab. Keeping pressure on the IC player is also quite effective, oftentime this will result in the separating of the climbers. The most aggravating thing for any IC player, in my opinion, is when Nana is separated and chased until she's killed off, all the while you're running at the enemy trying to save Nana, yet they still succeed. *sigh*

 

[saintrage]

Orca hit the bullseye with that one. Instead of trying to make something go away by banning it, learn to defeat it in battle. IC are actually a fragil character to play, and i have found that my consistancy with winning with them largely varies. This being due to my imperfected CG's and my ability to keep Nana alive.

There are a few characters that will easily wreck IC if you know how to play them verse the IC.
Ex. G&W, Metakinght, Kirby, Lucas, Wario, and IC. Each of these characters has a advantage over IC is a different way.

G&W has his range, and powerful attacks. Range can be a problem for the IC. Plus he is abit on the small side and harder to CG.

Metakinght has priority, and speed. Both of which the IC lack. Did i mention he was also one of the smaller characters? However he doesn't seem that much harder to CG. Plus Metaknight can chase Nana off the edge.

Kirby is extremely hard to CG, unless you've practiced ALOT. He is much easier to mess up on, and his overall improvement in this game makes him tough to beat. Plus he can also chase off the edge.

Lucas is small, lucas is strong, and lucas has a nice projectile. Plus his disjointed hit boxes and just tough to get around. Also, i just can't CG lucas for the life of me, and i'm very consistent in practice mode. But if i try to do lucas, i can't keep more than 2 or 3 CG going.

Wario, if played right, is very hard to grab. His SH aerials can easily be moved out or distance for a shield grab, making the match a lot less dependent on CGing.

Ice Climbers...can't be CG with both of them there.

These are not the only characer that give IC trouble. So ya, counter picking, your anti Ice Climbers

 

[Dan_X]

Orca hit the bullseye with that one. Instead of trying to make something go away by banning it, learn to defeat it in battle. IC are actually a fragil character to play, and i have found that my consistancy with winning with them largely varies. This being due to my imperfected CG's and my ability to keep Nana alive.

There are a few characters that will easily wreck IC if you know how to play them verse the IC.
Ex. G&W, Metakinght, Kirby, Lucas, Wario, and IC. Each of these characters has a advantage over IC is a different way.

G&W has his range, and powerful attacks. Range can be a problem for the IC. Plus he is abit on the small side and harder to CG.

Metakinght has priority, and speed. Both of which the IC lack. Did i mention he was also one of the smaller characters? However he doesn't seem that much harder to CG. Plus Metaknight can chase Nana off the edge.

Kirby is extremely hard to CG, unless you've practiced ALOT. He is much easier to mess up on, and his overall improvement in this game makes him tough to beat. Plus he can also chase off the edge.

Lucas is small, lucas is strong, and lucas has a nice projectile. Plus his disjointed hit boxes and just tough to get around. Also, i just can't CG lucas for the life of me, and i'm very consistent in practice mode. But if i try to do lucas, i can't keep more than 2 or 3 CG going.

Wario, if played right, is very hard to grab. His SH aerials can easily be moved out or distance for a shield grab, making the match a lot less dependent on CGing.

Ice Climbers...can't be CG with both of them there.

These are not the only characer that give IC trouble. So ya, counter picking, your anti Ice Climbers

As for the IC counter characters you listed, I tend to disagree with some of them. Wario, along with Pit, Lucario are among the easiest to chain grab... Though, in reality, almost every character, aside from a few, can be easily chain-grabbed once you know which chain-grabs to execute. There are a few chain grabs who's timing is nearly the same for every character, regardless of weight... Yet there are some that are better for heavy characters, and conversly light characters.

Anyway, my friend mained Wario, that is until I stepped up my game with ICs. Now if he slips up once, I chain grab him to death, usually I bring him across the map and spike him with Nana... he no longer plays Wario. lol.

My other friend tends to play Kirby, and to be honest, at first I'd have agreed with you. He appears to be very difficult to chaingrab. He is kind of a random character, one that few people will main in comparison to the rest of the cast, as such, I never practiced my chain-grabs against him. Anyway, my friend uses Kirby quite often now, and he's darn good with him. I've attempted chains against Kirby, but had no success. I assumed they just didn't work well against him. Tonight however, I practiced chains against Kirby in training mode. The verdict is; timing against Kirby is a tiny bit different from most of the cast when using certain chain-grabs, but he's quite easy to chain-grab.

In my opinion, one of the hardest characters to chain is Snake... However, it's not much of a problem, because he's also one of the easiest characters to Ice Lock. You can move him across the map with the Ice Lock, re-grab then Ice Lock again, until you get to the edge, where you spike him to death. It takes some practice, but it's the best way to kill off Snake. :D

I haven't practiced my chain-grabs much against GaW or MK, though, I probably should. One of my chain-grabs are bound to work against them, it's just a matter of which one.

 

[saintrage]

My intention with the list of those characters are ones that are particularly hard to grab, because they require extra practice. Because of Kirby's light small size, the spacing is different for the fthrow to fthrow CG.

But really the solution to this is practice, just like everyone of the IC CG. The fact i mentioned wario is probably because i don't know how to play against wario yet. My friend uses him so well that he always lands out of grab range, or behind me after aerial, so that shield grabbing doesn't work.

Btw what exactly do you mean by different CG that you use? just different throw? or do you mix it up with some footstool jumps by Nana too. Because i'll probbly add those to my list of CG just to be flashy

 

[Dan_X]

My intention with the list of those characters are ones that are particularly hard to grab, because they require extra practice. Because of Kirby's light small size, the spacing is different for the fthrow to fthrow CG.

But really the solution to this is practice, just like everyone of the IC CG. The fact i mentioned wario is probably because i don't know how to play against wario yet. My friend uses him so well that he always lands out of grab range, or behind me after aerial, so that shield grabbing doesn't work.

Btw what exactly do you mean by different CG that you use? just different throw? or do you mix it up with some footstool jumps by Nana too. Because i'll probbly add those to my list of CG just to be flashy

I myself do know how to do the footstool stuff, though I've only barely touched upon it. When I say different chain grabs, I mean different throws. I for one hardly ever do a fthrow chain, I may do it 4-5 times, but then I chain it into other throws... I may even add an Ice Lock in, then continue the chain.. then finish.

Different grab combos work differently for different characters, for some combos, the timing is just about the same against every character, be it Pika, or Bowser... others are better for lighter characters... You just have to experiment with the different chaining options. One chian grab combo for me may be a combination of multiple...

 

[Speedsk8er]

I love how this transformed into a thread for the ban-hammer on IC. Gosh. Shut the **** up.

 

[saintrage]

I myself do know how to do the footstool stuff, though I've only barely touched upon it. When I say different chain grabs, I mean different throws. I for one hardly ever do a fthrow chain, I may do it 4-5 times, but then I chain it into other throws... I may even add an Ice Lock in, then continue the chain.. then finish.

Different grab combos work differently for different characters, for some combos, the timing is just about the same against every character, be it Pika, or Bowser... others are better for lighter characters... You just have to experiment with the different chaining options. One chian grab combo for me may be a combination of multiple...

I see what you mean. Don't limit yourself to certain CG's because some on easier on other characters than others. Like most of the Mid weight characters are so easy to Fthrow to Fthrow, its not even funny.

Thanks, I'll definitely diversify my CG game now. learning Fthrow to Fthrow was hard enough >.< i didn't want to do all the rest. At least, not extensively.

 

[Psymon]

I know what you're getting at, I feel slightly cheap at times but what you've got to remember is that you CAN be beaten if they play slightly differently. If they use more of an aerial game, high-priority attacks when defending and constantly try to seperate Popo and Nana then it can be done. If they lose, it's their fault as well as yours =P. Psy.

 

[choknater]

Haha knihT is a noob..!

 

[Finch]

^ That's both the meanest and best post I've ever seen from choknater

 

[LaserBust]

Lol, how cruel. Its Ok Kniht.