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Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

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SKX31

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Terry Bogard: The Legendary Hungry Wolf from the King of Fighters series representing SNK. Which was partially spoiled due to Nintendo's part prior on Challenger 4 reveal. Oops.

One of the oldest fighting game classics that Sakurai started his idea of creating Super Smash Bros to be friendly for everyone that couldn't play complex controls.
:ult_terry: . The SNK leak. Sakurai's inspiration. "Hat Ken."

GO.

Terry's inclusion made him one of the biggest "winners" of FP1, arguably even more so than Joker. While Terry and FF / KoF are very much well known in some regions (Japan, LatAm, China) he's mainly within those regions' respective FGCs. In other regions he's much more niché or even obscure - to the point where on these very forums Sari was one of the very few people to have Terry or SNK in general even on the radar, and did entire writeups on him and the other SNK characters.

Afterwards, well, he became surprisingly popular to play as. Several factors contribute to this:

Terry's competitive fortunes have been strong right out of the gate, although the playerbase is not huge nor is he considered super-overwhelming. Riddles - already a solid Ken / Ryu player when Terry was unveiled - took a strong interest in Mr. Bogard and instantly switched to him. After the switch he showed off how Terry's surprisingly mobile and that he's capable of some silly kills, and that combined with prominent results helped to solidify him as Terry's most well known player. Other players include Tsu, who uses him alongside :ultlucario: and have upset several prominent players.

Terry's moveset is heavily leaned towards the punish game - arguably even more so than Ryu / Ken. Like the Shotos though, all but Power Wave can be inputed using specific commands - which is difficult to do but its reward is generally increased damage, knockback and intangibility.

Power Wave is his sole projectile, a low-profiling poke that can stifle reckless approaches. Burning Knuckle is a commital but dangerous punch with strong knockback, allowing it to kill surprisingly early. Rising Tackle is a short but highly damaging Up B with a likewise dangerous ability to trap people. Terry's the first character to have a back special - Crack Shoot a high profiling spinning heel kick that works both as a damage racker, crossing up shields and a recovery mixup. Power Dunk is famously the go-to move for damage racking, and can also work as another mixup.

All right, it's time to talk about this:



The Special Cancels. While a trademark for Ryu and Ken, Terry's inclusion highlighted this even more since multiple normals (Jab, all of his tilts, N-Air) can cancel into Special Moves. The most common use is... well, yeah, although there's a surprising number of different special confirms. The punish game Terry possesses is further augmented by him having a strong normal combo game. U-Tilt, N-Air and U-Air are especially good for combos / juggles. Terry is also the first character to incorporate a dodge attack - a modified U-Tilt that comes out slightly faster, has higher knockback and launches upward with the primary trade off being less shieldstun. Dodge Attack -> U-Air -> Rising Tackle is a real chain at certain %s.

And this is an intentional segue right into the GO meter. Yup those two. Power Geyser and Buster Wolf are super-commital, but Power Geyser covers entire ****ing platforms and can kill as early as 50 % with low blast ceilings, while Buster Wolf's status as a hitgrab means it can completely counter stuff like :ultbanjokazooie: 's Wonderwing, :ultincineroar: 's Revenge and :ultjoker: 's Rebel's Guard (but not Tetrakarn). The Supers can also be confirmed into: Up Tilt -> Power Geyser and F-Tilt -> Buster Wolf, making it extra imperative for the opponents to KO Terry before Terry can get the damage gravy train rolling. He's surprisingly heavy too - that combined with the recovery mixups makes it possible for him to tank a ton of damage in some situations.

The catch is that the Supers can be difficult for newcomers to execute properly and that they're liable to being misinputed / thrown in the wrong direction. This also goes for the input versions of Specials, meaning that Terry has a decently steep skill curve for players interested in trying him out. The difficulty of execution is arguably not as bad as Ryu / Ken, but can still cause tech flubs and various unintentional hiccups. The autoturnaround makes his B-Air in particular difficult to pull off in 1v1s.

Other weaknesses he has are also worth noting: His movement stats are slow whether on the ground or the air, which combined with just one projectile makes approaches kinda difficult. He's also very vurnerable in disadvantage - he's especially prone to being juggled, even as he has several moves with intangibility on them. While he has his recovery mixups they're also very exploitable and susceptible to off stage edgeguards / two frames. His ground game is amazing, although heavily centered on baiting and then punishing opponents: he doesn't have many good CQC pokes outside of D-Tilt.

Casually Terry's heavily situation-dependent. His lacking speed either on the ground or air doesn't allow him to play the item game vs. faster characters, but his attacks - especially his specials - have a lot of "splash" damage. This allows a Terry player to plow through multiple opponents at the same time, and can create situations where everyone else is yeeted away by a Burning Knuckle or Power Dunk. If he doesn't get killed early by an item, AT or whatever he can survive for a lot longer and unleash a bunch of Supers.

While I don't talk about the Final Smash often (every DLC FS is a cutscene) Terry's Special Cancels allows him to cancel almost every single move of his into his Final Smash, allowing him to cause even more casual AoE carnage assuming FS is turned on. Sure the FS cutscene only affects one, but everyone else caught in the "Overheat!" explosions will be launched away.

His Challenger Pack is honestly a near-10/10. The stage is amazing for casual fun, with the walls preventing the normal walk-off shenaningas and also encouraging people to just go ham. The music tracks are likewise amazing - the fact that SNK approved the entire list caught Sakurai off guard. The Spirits are pulled from all over SNK's properties, with the only notable missing characters being Mai and the Metal Slug cast.

All in all, those all factor into Terry being an enjoyable but not overbearing character whose playerbase have notably pushed him.

Edit: (Weird character interaction sidenote: I'd say that Terry's weirdest matchup are vs. other combo-centric characters like :ultsheik: and :ultmetaknight: . Not just since one touch often = tons of damage or trades all over the place, but also since both Terry and Sheik / Meta Knight can shut down each others' recoveries. It often results in some weird shenaningas whether on or off stage.)

Interesting that you put Kazuya first. I’d sooner see Sephiroth first, mind explaining your reasoning?
I've been a Tekken fan for a while (I prefer characters like King, Alisa and Kuma / Panda bite me) and once I got my hands on Kazuya I really liked how he plays. Sure, I'm not proficient enough to do consistent EWGF, but I still made him my secondary and played quite a lot of him.
 
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Sucumbio

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Feels odd to rank the second pass before it's done, but sure, I suppose. From favorite to least favorite (though unlike with the first pass, I don't dislike my least favorite; Min Min is fine.)

:ultkazuya: > :ultsteve: > :ultpyra: > :ultsephiroth: > :ultminmin
Yes! Kazuya is the best dlc of all for me I think not even this last fighter will top him. Sephiroth was also really good but he was not on my radar all. I don't dislike anyone tbh not base or dlc I love every single character in this game.
 

Dukefire

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I'm still waiting for 5 days left to create the list of character of what I think of their chances, but I think it is a good time to put it now.

We don't know WHO is the final challenger and it could be anyone that hasn't been revealed as a spirit event and/or Mii Costume. Here is what I think:

Sora: We have 2 Square Enix rep in two separate passes. Hero from Dragon Quest in FP1 and Sephiroth in FP2. With Disney holding half of the rights with Sora makes it difficult, so I can say that his chances are rough.

Master Chief: 2 Microsoft characters are present in Ultimate. Banjo & Kazooie in FP1 for Rare and Steve from Minecraft for Mojang in FP2. Him being the finale is fitting with the line "Finishing this Fight". He has a shot, but I say his chances are slim with Microsoft already having 2 reps in separate passes.

Crash Bandicoot: The Marsupial that been having his comeback with his series returning into the spotlight. His history of butting heads with Nintendo and SEGA during the 90s is what made a lasting impression for people wanting him to join the fight. Currently, Activition with their partner Blizzard is in a rough spot with problems within the company and history of being uncooperative. I can say that Crash's chances are somewhat between slim and possible with Toys for Bob working . I'm just not completely sure if he is in or not.

Rayman: With Ubisoft and Nintendo's partnership still strong, I have no doubts that Rayman could be the last challenger with Mario + Rabbids Sparks of Hope coming next year. The chances? Possible I can say.

Phoenix Wright: The Ace Attorney of the defending case. I could see him fight with the other cast of characters, but Capcom has a lot of their characters in Mii Costumes with the most recent one Dante from DMC. I could possible see him, but I don't play the Ace Attorney games, so I'm in the dark with him.

Fortnite Rep: Jokes and "Cancer" stereotypes aside, it could be possible with this Battle Royale game to get a rep in Smash Bros for the whole world knows about it. It is all up to Epic Games if they want to do that. Personally, I don't think he's coming with the company busy with crossovers of their own. Of course, I will be surprised (and salty for the couple of weeks) if one does get in.

Scorpion: From the Mortal Kombat series, he could be possible to join. The problem is that MK isn't popular in Japan due to the nature of being gory to the extreme in the home games. Of course, it can be toned down like how Injustice did. I can say that chances are slim.

Dr. Eggman: One of the most popular classic villains from the Sonic the Hedgehog series. He could have a chances with SEGA ok with the cooperation of Nintendo. Chances? I could see a possibility with the Doctor fighting in his Egg Mobile like hos Bowser Jr did. So, it is possible, but not guaranteed.

Pokemon rep?: Pokemon I can agree has a lot of popular Pokemon fighters (With Incinaroar being the recent addition for Sun and Moon), so I don't think another one is coming as the finale.

Waluigi: Jokes and Memes aside, he could be a possible addition. It is just that he has been in the Meme status for so long (Along with being an Assist Trophy), I don't know if he will be appearing as the last one for Ultimate.

Fire Emblem?: Answer, there is a high chance that one more might be coming.

Ok, but in seriousness, I don't see anymore FE reps coming as each character represents the game series they originated from.

Doom Slayer/Doomguy: Bethesda is a part with Microsoft recently. I could see this Demon Slayer arrive to Smash Bro with his tools being toned down, but his stage might be a problem with Hell influence. So his chances are slim.

Nahobino or any past protagonist from the Shin Megami Tensei series: Another Series owned by SEGA with Atlus. It could be possible as part to promote the upcoming SGT 5 coming in November. I just don't see it as a guarantee pick as even advertisement doesn't have to take form as a fighter like how the Astral Chain series ended up with a spirit event.

Any remaining Indie Characters: Hollow Knight, Gunvolt, Ori and Quote from Cave Story seems to be the last indie characters left in the running after Sans, Shantae, Cuphead and Shovel Knight have their own role. To me, looks like Ultimate isn't the time yet, but a Mii Costume is still a great representation. It will leave an impression that the Indie characters will have another shot in another Smash Bros game in the future.

These are all the characters I can remember on my thought if they are possible or not. Again, don't use this as a template since personal thoughts aren't accurate in the slightest.
 

AreJay25

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Yeah, why not, let's rank stuff.

FP1: :ult_terry: > :ulthero: >:ultjoker: >:ultbanjokazooie: > :ultbyleth:

FP2: :ultkazuya:> :ultsephiroth: > :ultminmin > :ultsteve: > :ultpyra:

Huh, I seem to be, uh... noticing some patterns here.
 

GalacticPetey

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TERRY:
The surprise winner of Fighters Pass 1 for me (though now that I've played Three Houses Byleth may have a claim to that). I was aware of who Terry was and knew a little bit about SNK's history but I still knew very little. Shame he got leaked but those few days notice allowed me to better familiarize myself with SNK and its legacy. And man you can just feel the love from Sakurai with this one. Character is near flawlessly represented move set wise, and the sheer amount of content brought with him is still unmatched.

Terry is my favorite of the fighting game characters to play. It's hard to say exactly why but he feels a lot better to control than Ryu and Ken. Kazuya's also fun but there's something about Terry man. It helps that Terry oozes that "radical 90s energy" but in a good way. He's flashy and every move feels good to land. Plus I absolutely love his Super special moves. Landing a Buster Wolf has got be one of the top five most satisfying things in Smash. Terry also might have my favorite DLC stage, and definitely my favorite from the first pass. The walls are such a fun gimmick and I love how many cameos were crammed in. And let's not forget the music, 50 whole tracks. Not only is this a massive list full of bangers, but it makes history by restoring the lyrics to Psycho Soldier for the first time in like two decades. That's the Sakurai clout in action.

Terry is probably my favorite of Fighters Pass 1, and definitely has the best challenger pack in terms of sheer content. Much like with FP2, my favorite ended up being someone I never really saw coming, further proof of Smash working its magic. I'm so, so glad that Terry has joined the ranks of the Smash Bros roster.
 

Momotsuki

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Yes! Kazuya is the best dlc of all for me I think not even this last fighter will top him. Sephiroth was also really good but he was not on my radar all. I don't dislike anyone tbh not base or dlc I love every single character in this game.
It's nice to know good taste is alive and well and that I'm not going totally insane over here.
 
D

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Terry's Challenger Pack my favorite so far even if the fighter himself is only my second-favorite among the DLC. It's not even a contest. I could elaborate but those above have done my job for me.

Reimu could totally get away with a similar dump truck of content. Fingers crossed~
Reimu really is the last character that could set the world ablaze. Not a big Touhou guy but I really really want to see people freak the **** out in a memeworthy way and we just haven't really seen that in the DLC at all, maybe a little with Banjo, Steve, and Sephiroth but everything else has been the hardest miss in terms of entertainment value outside of Smash.

Since it's the cool thing to do...

Pass 1:
:ult_terry: > >:ultbanjokazooie: > 🚮

Pass 2:

:ultsephiroth: > 🚮

CP 11 is going to have to be something really good to outdo Sephiroth as the overall DLC winner though.
 

Momotsuki

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I do think Reimu's odds are looking very good and that she's being comically overlooked here. I was saying for a long time that Reimu felt like final DLC material if Bayonetta can serve as precedent. Call it confirmation bias and you're probably right, but I think she's just behind Waluigi as a frontrunner. Everything right now is eerily akin to how I imagined Reimu's reveal as the final DLC. The only thing off is that I figured it'd be sometime in November.
It's beat-for-beat the kind of setup I had in my head before I kind of lost hope back in February. But hope hadn't left for long. I can feel it.

That said, I'm not an MW-or-bust type. Give me a cool character, Reimu or not, and I'll pog.
 
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DanganZilla5

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Ok I will join in too. Just keep in mind I will not include Plant since it's unfair to rank him since he doesn't come with a stage or music. But know that I think he's very fun to play as. In fact he's probably one of the characters I'm best as. No joke.

Pass 1: :ult_terry:>:ultbanjokazooie:>:ulthero:>:ultjoker:>:ultbylethf:

Pass 2: :ultpyra::ultmythra: and :ultsteve:>:ultsephiroth:>:ultkazuya:>:ultminmin

Overall I'm loving FP2 a lot more so far. The first pass is good, but the second pass definitely gave us more heavy hitters and characters that appealed to me more.
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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The catch is that the Supers can be difficult for newcomers to execute properly and that they're liable to being misinputed / thrown in the wrong direction.
This kinda reminds me. I think it might be a good idea to make command inputs exclusive to the Special Move button, as sometimes they can cause you to throw out command Burn Knuckle or Tatsumaki Senpukyaku instead of whatever attack (usually a jump attack or Smash Attack out of a crouch) you were going for.

...Final Smash...
That also reminds me, Terry has the most lame Final Smash of all of the DLC characters since it's just two moves he does in normal gameplay. It's a shame he got in so far away from KoF XV so we couldn't get his new super as his Final Smash.

(every DLC FS is a cutscene)
While they do have cutscenes, Pyra, Mythra, and Kazuya's Final Smashes aren't cutscene Final Smashes, as the bulk of their damage is through the stuff that goes on after.
 

Opossum

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Ranking the DLC again? Okay.

For Pass 1 + Plant, from best to worst
:ultbyleth::ult_terry::ultjoker::ultbanjokazooie::ulthero::ultpiranha:

For Pass 2 (minus the unknown last fighter obviously), best to worst
:ultminmin:ultsteve::ultsephiroth::ultpyra::ultmythra::ultkazuya:


And then, finally, all of them together, best to worst

:ultbyleth::ultminmin:ult_terry::ultsteve::ultsephiroth::ultjoker::ultbanjokazooie::ulthero::ultpyra::ultmythra::ultkazuya::ultpiranha:
Even then though, Piranha Plant's the only one that I think was fully bleh, as indifferent as I am toward Pyra, Mythra, and Kazuya.

With that being said the five character streak of Terry, Byleth, Min Min, Steve, Sephiroth was by far the best period of DLC, with all five of those choices being, in my opinion, the best ones of the entire DLC cycle. The closest of the Ultimate DLC to reach those heights otherwise is Joker, but even then he's a bit further down the line.
 

Rie Sonomura

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Ok I’ll rank the dlc

Pass 1
:ult_terry: > :ultjoker: > :ulthero: > :ultbanjokazooie: > :ultbyleth: :ultbylethf:> :ultpiranha: (yes I know Plant technically isn’t a part of the pass but still)

Pass 2

:ultkazuya: > :ultsephiroth: > :ultoctoling: / :ultoffthehook: > :ultpyra: / :ultmythra: = :ultminmin > :ultsteve::ultalex:

yes I’m putting my prediction for the final fighter there :shades:
 

GilTheGreat19

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:ult_terry: . The SNK leak. Sakurai's inspiration. "Hat Ken."

GO.

Terry's inclusion made him one of the biggest "winners" of FP1, arguably even more so than Joker. While Terry and FF / KoF are very much well known in some regions (Japan, LatAm, China) he's mainly within those regions' respective FGCs. In other regions he's much more niché or even obscure - to the point where on these very forums Sari was one of the very few people to have Terry or SNK in general even on the radar, and did entire writeups on him and the other SNK characters.

Afterwards, well, he became surprisingly popular to play as. Several factors contribute to this:

Terry's competitive fortunes have been strong right out of the gate, although the playerbase is not huge nor is he considered super-overwhelming. Riddles - already a solid Ken / Ryu player when Terry was unveiled - took a strong interest in Mr. Bogard and instantly switched to him. After the switch he showed off how Terry's surprisingly mobile and that he's capable of some silly kills, and that combined with prominent results helped to solidify him as Terry's most well known player. Other players include Tsu, who uses him alongside :ultlucario: and have upset several prominent players.

Terry's moveset is heavily leaned towards the punish game - arguably even more so than Ryu / Ken. Like the Shotos though, all but Power Wave can be inputed using specific commands - which is difficult to do but its reward is generally increased damage, knockback and intangibility.

Power Wave is his sole projectile, a low-profiling poke that can stifle reckless approaches. Burning Knuckle is a commital but dangerous punch with strong knockback, allowing it to kill surprisingly early. Rising Tackle is a short but highly damaging Up B with a likewise dangerous ability to trap people. Terry's the first character to have a back special - Crack Shoot a high profiling spinning heel kick that works both as a damage racker, crossing up shields and a recovery mixup. Power Dunk is famously the go-to move for damage racking, and can also work as another mixup.

All right, it's time to talk about this:



The Special Cancels. While a trademark for Ryu and Ken, Terry's inclusion highlighted this even more since multiple normals (Jab, all of his tilts, N-Air) can cancel into Special Moves. The most common use is... well, yeah, although there's a surprising number of different special confirms. The punish game Terry possesses is further augmented by him having a strong normal combo game. U-Tilt, N-Air and U-Air are especially good for combos / juggles. Terry is also the first character to incorporate a dodge attack - a modified U-Tilt that comes out slightly faster, has higher knockback and launches upward with the primary trade off being less shieldstun. Dodge Attack -> U-Air -> Rising Tackle is a real chain at certain %s.

And this is an intentional segue right into the GO meter. Yup those two. Power Geyser and Buster Wolf are super-commital, but Power Geyser covers entire ****ing platforms and can kill as early as 50 % with low blast ceilings, while Buster Wolf's status as a hitgrab means it can completely counter stuff like :ultbanjokazooie: 's Wonderwing, :ultincineroar: 's Revenge and :ultjoker: 's Rebel's Guard (but not Tetrakarn). The Supers can also be confirmed into: Up Tilt -> Power Geyser and F-Tilt -> Buster Wolf, making it extra imperative for the opponents to KO Terry before Terry can get the damage gravy train rolling. He's surprisingly heavy too - that combined with the recovery mixups makes it possible for him to tank a ton of damage in some situations.

The catch is that the Supers can be difficult for newcomers to execute properly and that they're liable to being misinputed / thrown in the wrong direction. This also goes for the input versions of Specials, meaning that Terry has a decently steep skill curve for players interested in trying him out. The difficulty of execution is arguably not as bad as Ryu / Ken, but can still cause tech flubs and various unintentional hiccups. The autoturnaround makes his B-Air in particular difficult to pull off in 1v1s.

Other weaknesses he has are also worth noting: His movement stats are slow whether on the ground or the air, which combined with just one projectile makes approaches kinda difficult. He's also very vurnerable in disadvantage - he's especially prone to being juggled, even as he has several moves with intangibility on them. While he has his recovery mixups they're also very exploitable and susceptible to off stage edgeguards / two frames. His ground game is amazing, although heavily centered on baiting and then punishing opponents: he doesn't have many good CQC pokes outside of D-Tilt.

Casually Terry's heavily situation-dependent. His lacking speed either on the ground or air doesn't allow him to play the item game vs. faster characters, but his attacks - especially his specials - have a lot of "splash" damage. This allows a Terry player to plow through multiple opponents at the same time, and can create situations where everyone else is yeeted away by a Burning Knuckle or Power Dunk. If he doesn't get killed early by an item, AT or whatever he can survive for a lot longer and unleash a bunch of Supers.

While I don't talk about the Final Smash often (every DLC FS is a cutscene) Terry's Special Cancels allows him to cancel almost every single move of his into his Final Smash, allowing him to cause even more casual AoE carnage assuming FS is turned on. Sure the FS cutscene only affects one, but everyone else caught in the "Overheat!" explosions will be launched away.

His Challenger Pack is honestly a near-10/10. The stage is amazing for casual fun, with the walls preventing the normal walk-off shenaningas and also encouraging people to just go ham. The music tracks are likewise amazing - the fact that SNK approved the entire list caught Sakurai off guard. The Spirits are pulled from all over SNK's properties, with the only notable missing characters being Mai and the Metal Slug cast.

All in all, those all factor into Terry being an enjoyable but not overbearing character whose playerbase have notably pushed him.

Edit: (Weird character interaction sidenote: I'd say that Terry's weirdest matchup are vs. other combo-centric characters like :ultsheik: and :ultmetaknight: . Not just since one touch often = tons of damage or trades all over the place, but also since both Terry and Sheik / Meta Knight can shut down each others' recoveries. It often results in some weird shenaningas whether on or off stage.)



I've been a Tekken fan for a while (I prefer characters like King, Alisa and Kuma / Panda bite me) and once I got my hands on Kazuya I really liked how he plays. Sure, I'm not proficient enough to do consistent EWGF, but I still made him my secondary and played quite a lot of him.
Where can I uh

BUY THAT HOODIE?
 
D

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I do think Reimu's odds are looking very good and that she's being comically overlooked here. I was saying for a long time that Reimu felt like final DLC material if Bayonetta can serve as precedent. Call it confirmation bias and you're probably right, but I think she's just behind Waluigi as a frontrunner. Everything right now is eerily akin to how I imagined Reimu's reveal as the final DLC.

That said, I'm not an MW-or-bust type. Give me a cool character, Reimu or not, and I'll pog.
If you don't mind me asking, how? I recall an ages old rumor about a massive amount of music but it feels like it may be beyond its shelf life. I know there's at least one Touhou game on Switch (I have it unopened on my shelf, actually)... but I just don't see Reimu in a Bayonetta situation. Bayonetta made it in as a sleeper finale because Nintendo bankrolled the second game and now their consoles are the exclusive home of the games for sizeable exclusivity period, and Touhou is a very niche indie title. Loathe to admit it as I am, it feels like Undertale is the indie go-to for a fighter in Smash, and even then the most memeable character from it just ended up as a Mii.

I'm not attacking here, I would just love to hear the logic. Wake me up to the Reimu facts.
 

Technomage

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All I have to say about Terry's discussion day is this: I do like that his inclusion ultimately (no pun intended) lead to the "Good boys and girls" meme; it's just so hilarious! XD
 
D

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That also reminds me, Terry has the most lame Final Smash of all of the DLC characters since it's just two moves he does in normal gameplay. It's a shame he got in so far away from KoF XV so we couldn't get his new super as his Final Smash.
He doesn't do Overheat Geyser in normal gameplay, but otherwise this is so weird to me. I think Terry's final smash is one of the most hype in the game period, not just the DLC.
 

Momotsuki

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If you don't mind me asking, how? I recall an ages old rumor about a massive amount of music but it feels like it may be beyond its shelf life. I know there's at least one Touhou game on Switch (I have it unopened on my shelf, actually)... but I just don't see Reimu in a Bayonetta situation. Bayonetta made it in as a sleeper finale because Nintendo bankrolled the second game and now their consoles are the exclusive home of the games for sizeable exclusivity period, and Touhou is a very niche indie title. Loathe to admit it as I am, it feels like Undertale is the indie go-to for a fighter in Smash, and even then the most memeable character from it just ended up as a Mii.

I'm not attacking here, I would just love to hear the logic. Wake me up to the Reimu facts.
Hey, thanks for the excuse to ramble~

Well, one major thing was the trademark for Hakurei Shrine back around the same time the second pass was presumably being finalized. Late 2019-ish if I recall. This doesn't mean much on its own; a brush stroke for a greater picture.

I should probably be more specific in what I mean by Bayonetta as precedent though - Bayonetta being a (very big airquotes) "niche" title and being, as you said, the sleeper finale. I'd say when you look at the sheer cultural prominence of Touhou in Japan and on the world wide web, those same airquotes come into play for Touhou's own "niche" descriptor.

I could totally get down with an Undertale fighter, mind you, but I think if we are getting an indie, Reimu might just be the most impactful addition with Steve out of the way, and one that wouldn't be very difficult to negotiate for!

I don't think she's a lock, truly, but I really do think she's so much more likely than many realize.
 
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LAA9000

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My favourite parts of Ultimate speculation were:
  • The Ken leak, for being the one real off-screen image leak and spawning a meme.
  • The Grinch leak, for being splendidly well-made and leading to lots of discussion and debates due to it conflicting with box theory and Vergeben.
  • The Adeleine leak, for getting so much right by coincidence despite being nothing more than a series of guesses.
  • The 7-11 posters, for being completely believable and getting me excited over imminent Mr. Sakurai Presentses.
  • The SNK leak, for being a laughable rookie mistake and getting me to know Terry before his reveal.
My least favourite parts were:
  • The port vs. sequel debates, for already being disproven by BotW Link's presence in the teaser trailer, yet persisting until the 8/8/18 Smash Direct.
  • My memory of Sakurai stating that every fighter planned for the base game made it into the base game, for the lack of evidence of him ever saying this.
  • The Brave datamine, for indisputably, unsatisfyingly spoiling Hero's inclusion six months in advance.
  • The lack of a Fire Emblem: Three Houses Spirit Event, for making me very suspicious that Byleth would be a DLC fighter.
  • Vergeben's massive list of CP5 disconfirmations, for ruining so many dreams, being true for every fighter until Kazuya and possibly being a giant excuse to not admit CP5 was Byleth the whole time.
  • The Cacomallow leak, for lasting too long and suspiciously surfacing right before Mii Fighter costume mods became publicly available.
  • The ARMS guessing game, for lasting too long and being boring.
  • The Tales of Chun-Leak, for getting so much attention despite having no source, conflicting with my aforementioned possibly false memory of Sakurai and not even stating they would be DLC.
  • Vergeben stating CP10 would be Master Chief, for blatantly piggybacking off of other insiders and pulling the 'source slip-up' card after being proven wrong.
If I have any regrets about Ultimate speculation, it's honestly joining dedicated speculation circles in the first place. Every Smash fan has probably done some form of speculation - it's part of the nature of Smash hype - but taking it more seriously leads to lots of unnecessary arguments. It doesn't help that I joined this thread during Fighters Pass vol. 2, easily the worst part of Ultimate speculation. No offense to anyone here, of course.
 

Michael the Spikester

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Betting if the last fighter is an indie rep it could be Quote/Curly Brave.

Might not be the first Indie rep but apparently Cave Story from what I heard had the biggest impact of what made Indie games as they are today.
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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The Touhou Project was written off because it didn't have any officially localized releases, which essentially meant it technically doesn't exist in western markets, and is thus "impossible". To my knowledge, this has recently changed, though I dunno if the games people were talking about were fan games or not. If they are, then they will still be written off because no way is Nintendo taking fan games into account.
 

Michael the Spikester

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Another character worth keeping in check with.

Resident Evil rep.

A reminder the spirit event took place during Pass 1 putting them back in the running.

It'll also be October which is rather fitting.
 

Technomage

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Another character worth keeping in check with.

Resident Evil rep.

A reminder the spirit event took place during Pass 1 putting them back in the running.

It'll also be October which is rather fitting.
But at what point during FP1? If it's before Terry's release, then I see it possible.
 

Momotsuki

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I think something important to note is that most things that don't get "official" localizations are things that very few people in the west know or care about. That's not the case with Touhou. Spend any amount of time on the internet and you will find that it's so not the case, in fact, that I don't think it'd be the same kind of obstacle for the series as it would be for something that truly has no presence outside of its borders. I doubt anyone upstairs is squabbling over a technicality like that if Reimu did in fact get brought up.
 
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Iko MattOrr

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The Adeleine leak, for getting so much right by coincidence despite being nothing more than a series of guesses.
There really was one aside of her being part of a bunch of "missing spirits"? I can't remember this and I think I would have remembered it, strange.
 
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Hey, thanks for the excuse to ramble~

Well, one major thing was the trademark for Hakurei Shrine back around the same time the second pass was presumably being finalized. Late 2019-ish if I recall. This doesn't mean much on its own; a brush stroke for a greater picture.

I should probably be more specific in what I mean by Bayonetta as precedent though - Bayonetta being a (very big airquotes) "niche" title and being, as you said, the sleeper finale. I'd say when you look at the sheer cultural prominence of Touhou in Japan and on the world wide web, those same airquotes come into play for Touhou's own "niche" descriptor.

I could totally get down with an Undertale fighter, mind you, but I think if we are getting an indie, Reimu might just be the most impactful addition with Steve out of the way, and one that wouldn't be very difficult to negotiate for!

I don't think she's a lock, truly, but I really do think she's so much more likely than many realize.
Like I said, I'm not super knowledgeable, but wouldn't a trademark for Hakurei Shrine just mean that Zun's finally getting serious about his IP?

That aside, I've gone on before about how Quote should be "the" indie rep because Cave Story is the OG indie title, but that's not exactly fair since I think Touhou has been running around since the late 90s?

If Reimu is the last fighter we could get an all-Indie Mii wave with music for each

Kris, the Knight, Zagreus, Gunvolt, Ori… GIMME. NOW.
Two of these are rumored mii costumes from a certain someone, if I remember. I like Gunvolt a lot, so being cucked again in a Mii wave would just be the sendoff...

The Touhou Project was written off because it didn't have any officially localized releases, which essentially meant it technically doesn't exist in western markets, and is thus "impossible". To my knowledge, this has recently changed, though I dunno if the games people were talking about were fan games or not. If they are, then they will still be written off because no way is Nintendo taking fan games into account.
I have nowhere near the authority to tell you that you're wrong, but I will tell you that Touhou Kabuto Burst is on the Switch and there's a fighting game with a yet to be determined release date coming to the Switch as well.
 

Neverx

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Pass 1: :ultjoker:>:ultbylethf:>:ultbanjokazooie:>:ulthero3:>:ult_terry:
Pass 2: :ultmythra:/:ultpyra: > :ultsteve:>:ultminmin>:ultkazuya:>:ultsephiroth:

I've liked pretty much all the DLC although I don't care about DQ or KOF at all (still enjoy Terry and Hero tho). Pass 2 is easily my favorite (I think all those characters are bangers imo).
 

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He doesn't do Overheat Geyser in normal gameplay, but otherwise this is so weird to me. I think Terry's final smash is one of the most hype in the game period, not just the DLC.
Well, yeah he doesn't do Triple Geyser, but it's just Power Geyser, but more, and then he just Power Dunks you, says an awkwardly delivered line, and then Buster Wolfs you. Nothing super visually interesting actually happens. Any super that's just normal moves is automatically super lame IMO, and Triple Wolf does absolutely nothing to salvage that.

Kazuya's Final Smash is similarly lame since it's just Devil Blaster, but more, though at least the lasers look cool.

I have nowhere near the authority to tell you that you're wrong, but I will tell you that Touhou Kabuto Burst is on the Switch and there's a fighting game with a yet to be determined release date coming to the Switch as well.
I'm not wrong, that's how the conversation went. I do know things have changed since then though, but Reimu discussion didn't really pick up in response so I don't quite remember how. Just out of curiosity, is Touhou Kabuto Burst an official game in the series or a fan game?
 
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Well, yeah he doesn't do Triple Geyser, but it's just Power Geyser, but more, and then he just Power Dunks you, says an awkwardly delivered line, and then Buster Wolfs you. Nothing super visually interesting actually happens. Any super that's just normal moves is automatically super lame IMO, and Triple Wolf does absolutely nothing to salvage that.

Kazuya's Final Smash is similarly lame since it's just Devil Blaster, but more, though at least the lasers look cool.


I'm not wrong, that's how the conversation went. I do know things have changed since then though, but Reimu discussion didn't really pick up in response so I don't quite remember how. Just out of curiosity, is Touhou Kabuto Burst an official game in the series or a fan game?
I have a hard time figuring out how a fan game could get a translation and physical release on a console in the United States, but again, I'm not a Touhou expert. I don't believe it's a mainline Touhou game, but Cloud didn't show up on a Nintendo console in a mainline Final Fantasy, either.
 

LAA9000

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There really was one aside of her being part of a bunch of "missing spirits"? I can't remember this and I think I would have remembered it, strange.
Sadly, it didn't claim Adeleine would would be playable. The nickname is actually referring to an unrelated image of her included with a 4chan leak from December 2018. Here's the section of SmashWiki's list of rumours detailing this leak.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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I have a hard time figuring out how a fan game could get a translation and physical release on a console in the United States, but again, I'm not a Touhou expert. I don't believe it's a mainline Touhou game, but Cloud didn't show up on a Nintendo console in a mainline Final Fantasy, either.
Yeah the physical release probably does mean that it's official, though the Touhou community had been translating the games themselves (unofficially of course) for quite a while. I do think that would help them get their foot in the door in terms of discussion, though they do still have to deal with the "they're still super niche in the west" argument.
 
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