Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Commander_Alph]

EVERY game doesn't NEED to be represented.

If it did, we'd have, like, 20 Zelda characters, 7 F-Zero characters, 2 StarTropics characters and about 100 Mario characters.

I think you're missing a few things.. oh yeah: FE has a rotating Main character which the thing that they always do, sure every installment of Zelda and Mario has brand new character but they are more than a minor character. It's kinda ironic because Mario and Zelda has the most stage in the game which they always added everytime a new installment from the series is released.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I think you're missing a few things.. oh yeah: FE has a rotating Main character which the thing that they always do

I didn't miss it. I don't think it's relevant.

 

[Pillow]

I want Lyn too..heck, I want Eirika too..its just that's part of the problem here..Nintendo (and Sakurai) will tend to go with 'new and relevant' over older ones..though hopefully Lyn's chances will rise as she continues to do well in the Popularity Contests that Fire Emblem Heroes constantly have.

I have the same issue with Pokémon Reps, myself, since my favorite is from Gen 3, Gardevoir, and with the Pokémon characters constantly being either Gen 1 or Newest Gen, I doubt we'd ever get it added as a playable rep and none of the Pokémon reps aside from Mewtwo & Pokémon Trainer really caught my interest.

I think that Marth, Ike, Robin, Corrin, & Byleth are fine to say, they all have different enough movesets from one another, and, aside from Ike, represent different aspects of the Fire Emblem series, being Swords, Magic, Dragon Stone, and Weapon Switching/Weapon Triangle & Bow..however, I would like to see at least Corrin and/or Byleth changed to be female as their default so we actually have female reps for the FE series, what with likely losing Lucina..and I think that even with the similar concepts, Byleth & Monster Hunter would play very differently.

I know, but since people count Echoes towards the total FE Rep Count when people complain about 'Too Much FE', I felt he should be counted.

Of course it'd be nicer if the characters with actual unique movesets stayed, but that's probably not how it works. There's no real point in cutting echoes, since they take so little development time and the Smash team (or at least Sakurai) has never seemed to care about "representation". The only way the cuts would actually be impactful is if they were on characters that soaked up more dev time. So yeah, I'd be fine with the characters staying of course, but I'd be okay if Ike, Corrin, and Byleth was replaced with Lloyd, Estelle, and Monster Hunters (just random examples, there could be lots of characters fit to take their place).

 

[DevaAshera]

Of course it'd be nicer if the characters with actual unique movesets stayed, but that's probably not how it works. There's no real point in cutting echoes, since they take so little development time and the Smash team (or at least Sakurai) has never seemed to care about "representation". The only way the cuts would actually be impactful is if they were on characters that soaked up more dev time. So yeah, I'd be fine with the characters staying of course, but I'd be okay if Ike, Corrin, and Byleth was replaced with Lloyd, Estelle, and Monster Hunters (just random examples, there could be lots of characters fit to take their place).

I don't really think that characters are cut to be replaced outright, but rather just 'less priority' than others..and previous games have shown that Clones are a low priority when you consider that the Melee Clones were the ones cut for Brawl (along with Mewtwo) with Dr. Mario, Roy, Young Link, and Pichu..though its possible Young Link was replaced by the similar Toon Link as a spiritual successor...the same thing somewhat happened going from Brawl to 3DS/Wii U when we lost the semi-clones Lucas & Wolf (though Lucas returned as DLC), with the others we lost being due to not working on 3DS (Ice Climbers), Rights (Solid Snake), and the loss of Transforming Characters (Ivysaur, Squirtle).
It seems that Echoes/Clones/Semi-Clones are the ones most likely to be cut in Development if time & resource issues occur, being the lowest priority characters typically.
I don't think Sakurai cares if character concepts are similar to others or not since two different characters from two different series would have different movesets even if the concept behind them was similar.

 

[SnowClaws]

Here are projected colors for Fighter 11 now.

Ah, I think this color chart needs a little edit and I been holding on to this information ever since I notice it during the P/M presentation. So, here goes, Fighter 9 actually have a secondary color, more specifically it is the Fighter color for Pyra that isn't shown anywhere on the Fighter Pass 2/Smash website, but only in this presentation.

It occurs when Sakurai discuss the difference between Pyra and Mythra, it is a small window featuring the portrait of the characters with the color background. When examining this section, Mythra has the same green background as shown in Fighter Pass 2 while Pyra has a pink background.

Here are some time stamp 12:20, 13:45

 

[RaintheCriminalWhirlwind]

Happy International Women's Day!

View attachment 306414
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Spoiler

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Here's a fun game, name 10 female characters you want for Smash.

I'll start.

1. Dixie Kong
2. Impa
3. Krystal
4. Chun-Li
5. Terra
6. Arle
7. Reimu
8. Ms. Pac-Man
9. Octoling
10. Lip

1. 2B
2. Chun-Li
3. Estelle
4. Yuna
5. Velvet
6. Tracer
7. Rose (Legend of the Dragoon)
8. Android 21
9. Kat (Gravity Rush)
10. Morrigan

 

[Knight Dude]

Here are projected colors for Fighter 11 now.

So there could be one blue guy?

Put the Boyz in Coach!



Unless we get Hayabusa for the Purple spot.

 

[N3ON]

You know how many unique first-party characters have been cut, that weren't attributable to technical constraints?

One. And that probably wouldn't have happened if not for Sonic throwing the schedule off.

You know how many derivative characters have been cut?

Seven.

It's not a coincidence. Sakurai's analogy depicts them as supplemental characters, and with that comes a lower priority for many of them. Supplemental things tend to be less crucial. It seems to me that this category being considered among the least likely to be cut is backwards. I would put them right up there with third-parties as a group most likely to have cuts.

From a resource perspective, the argument for their retention is sound. It is less intensive to bring them back than unique characters. But that's not Smash's, or maybe Sakurai's, outlook. That's not how it works. Often they're added late, and cut readily; they're seen as expendable, and prioritized thusly. I expect that to endure, and I expect several won't be back once the axe comes out. Especially if the cuts are comprehensive.

 

[Idon]

You know how many unique first-party characters have been cut, that weren't attributable to technical constraints?

One. And that probably wouldn't have happened if not for Sonic throwing the schedule off.

You know how many derivative characters have been cut?

Seven.

It's not a coincidence. Sakurai's analogy depicts them as supplemental characters, and with that comes a lower priority for many of them. Supplemental things tend to be less crucial. It seems to me that this category being considered among the least likely to be cut is backwards. I would put them right up there with third-parties as a group most likely to have cuts.

From a resource perspective, the argument for their retention is sound. It is less intensive to bring them back than unique characters. But that's not Smash's, or maybe Sakurai's, outlook. That's not how it works. Often they're added late, and cut readily; they're seen as expendable, and prioritized thusly. I expect that to endure, and I expect several won't be back once the axe comes out. Especially if the cuts are comprehensive.

Yeah like, I get that attributing Smash to other fighting games may not always have exact comparisons but like...

I think there's a pretty good reason why every fighting game in the modern era has pretty much moved past the phase in their lives where their characters are essentially reskins of one another.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Then you choose to be miserable for no reason..it would be like if I just complained forever about the fact that Bowser Jr, Ice Climbers, Mr. Game & Watch, & ROB were added to the game when the first I just dislike as a character and the rest were so obscure or no longer relevant that I felt they were added more for surprises than for anyone actually clamoring for their addition..

Please complain some. If no one here complains, some people assume it's because there are no complaints. This applies to more than character choices. The reality is that there are people who have stopped complaining and people who have left this forum.

 

[DarthEnderX]

One, I said NEW entries in series.

Ah. So the 3 F-Zero games that have come out since Smash began all must have characters then.

Then you choose to be miserable for no reason..

No. It's a good reason.

 

[Speed Weed]

Here are projected colors for Fighter 11 now.

looks at bottom right color combination

I ****ing win

 

[Wunderwaft]

There was a bit of Falcom talk before so I'm posting this. 40th anniversary of the company.

Falcom 40th Anniversary Illustration Contest launched https://t.co/nxBtz6nCzm pic.twitter.com/ed1y55j1a7

— Gematsu (@gematsu) March 9, 2021

Also because I guess that official pic can be kinda fun if used to judge the main options from Falcom. Also, the lack of Kevin surprised me. They're disrespecting Wunderwaft 's boy here.

Besides that, I finally found a modder giving Terry his Garou look. It's kinda rough but it'll improve, I guess? I'm putting the tweet inside the spoiler just in case because the guy also gave Pyra and Mythra their swimsuits lol

Spoiler

some of you like Garou Terry, so here are some pics of him. He still needs some work pic.twitter.com/AmhiYfzZeq

— LN (@LN_310) March 9, 2021

I swear if by the end of Ultimate we don't get extra alts for the characters and I'm not able to play as Garou Terry I'm gonna mod my Switch lol

no kevin in the pic

Come on Falcom you made a whole game dedicated to him and his story arc and you do him dirty like this?

 

[True Blue Warrior]

You know how many unique first-party characters have been cut, that weren't attributable to technical constraints?

You forgot Squirtle and Ivysaur. They also had no technical reason to be cut in Smash 4 as ZSS came back.

 

[DevaAshera]

Ah. So the 3 F-Zero games that have come out since Smash began all must have characters then.

No. It's a good reason.

F-Zero didn't do as well as other series included, its sales have dwindled since F-Zero X, regardless of how much I adore F-Zero GX, but they still got representation through the Port Town: Aero Dive stage from F-Zero GX and Captain Falcon is still the main character of those games, so his playable inclusion was representation enough..and lets be honest, aside from Samurai Goroh, not a lot of F-Zero characters lend themselves as naturally to Smash as other series' characters do. Not to mention that, outside of a few exceptions from primarily handheld series like Pokémon & Kirby, or games that only had new entries on handhelds like EarthBound and Kid Icarus, Smash Bros. usually places more focus on the console games than the handheld games, so F-Zero: GP Legend was unlikely..and F-Zero Climax even more-so considering it wasn't even released outside of Japan..and they were both more-so based on the anime and had poor critical reception to boot..not exactly the most likely contenders for Smash..

No, its really not. Fact is, Fire Emblem is one of Nintendo's bigger series these days, even if not up to Mario, Zelda, Pokémon, or Kirby levels, but likely more-so than most of the other series not released to one of those and it goes without saying that a new character would be likely for the newest entry in its series as none of the previous characters would represent the newest game as they are not main characters in it.
The problem with Fire Emblem isn't new characters like Corrin & Byleth, its old characters..and Chrom..since Marth has 3 clones, Ike is no longer relevant (aside from Heroes), and we don't really need three reps from Fire Emblem Awakening, especially when 2 of 3 are the aforementioned Marth Clones.
Pretty much what I'm saying is that rather than having all of these Fire Emblem characters continually returning and causing people to hate the newer characters that are more interesting than almost half of the current reps, it should be whittled down to just Marth, Robin, Corrin, & Byleth OR Marth, Ike, Robin, Corrin, & Byleth, plus a newcomer, as they are the more unique characters and 5 or 6 is a good enough number that isn't too many nor too few, representing several aspects of the FE series..and its still less reps than Mario (9 Reps), Pokémon (8/10 Reps), & Zelda (6 Reps).

Although it seems like its always a terrible idea, sometimes trimming the roster to include new content is the best way to go in order to avoid roster bloat, which is entirely what happened to Fire Emblem due to Everyone Is Here.

Please complain some. If no one here complains, some people assume it's because there are no complaints. This applies to more than character choices. The reality is that there are people who have stopped complaining and people who have left this forum.

Complaining is fine, when its reasonable..complaining every time a new Fire Emblem character is announced regardless of how they play but being fine with having all of the previous ones, half of which have the same moveset, return with no newcomers is not..thats when it seems more like just whining about something than anything else..

You forgot Squirtle and Ivysaur. They also had no technical reason to be cut in Smash 4 as ZSS came back.

My guess is that Sakurai didn't want there to be 8 Pokémon Reps taking up individual slots or something so he picked the most popular one out of the three..possibly wanting to keep the Mario series as the series with the most reps due to it being Nintendo's Mascot Series or possibly to keep the Pokémon Roster from being even more loaded with Gen 1 Reps.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

My guess is that Sakurai didn't want there to be 8 Pokémon Reps taking up individual slots or something..possibly wanting to keep the Mario series as the series with the most reps due to it being Nintendo's Mascot Series.

If Sakurai cared about something like that, Pokemon wouldn’t have had 6 in Brawl as each of Pokemon Trainer’s mon are still counted by him as individual fighters. They took a lot of development time.

Heck if it weren’t for Echo Fighters (last-minute clone additions that wouldn’t be initially planned for) Pokemon would still have more CSS slots than Mario in the base roster.

Complaining is fine, when its reasonable..complaining every time a new Fire Emblem character is announced regardless of how they play but being fine with having all of the previous ones, half of which have the same moveset, return with no newcomers is not..thats when it seems more like just whining about something than anything else..

Veteran privileges. People are more likely to care about them than newcomers from the same franchises.

And the only reason people didn’t complain that much about Chrom was that he was a bonus character that got in due to fan demand (that and being revealed in the same direct as K. Rool, Simon, Richter and Dar Samus)

 

[N3ON]

You forgot Squirtle and Ivysaur. They also had no technical reason to be cut in Smash 4 as ZSS came back.

I didn't forget them. If technical limitations weren't as issue, they would've been there.

My ratio is regarding characters that were unaffected by technical obstacles.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I didn't forget them. If technical limitations weren't as issue, they would've been there.

My ratio is regarding characters that were unaffected by technical obstacles.

Technical limitations didn't stop ZSS who was also a newcomer in Brawl so that argument doesn’t work. They were cut simply because they weren’t deemed important priority, not because they had to unlike with the Ice Climbers.

 

[Ben Holt]

I didn't forget them. If technical limitations weren't as issue, they would've been there.

My ratio is regarding characters that were unaffected by technical obstacles.

Technical limitations didn't stop ZSS who was also a newcomer in Brawl so that argument doesn’t work. They were cut simply because they weren’t deemed important priority, not because they had to unlike with the Ice Climbers.

I gotta take True Blue Warrior's side here. Sorry N3ON.
Not sure if you're also just referring to Smash 4 cuts, but Mewtwo was an original fighter that was cut in Brawl.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I will say this though, if past precedence is of any relevance when talking about cuts, all the non-derivative character cuts have been third-party, from “revolving door” franchises and the Ice Climbers who have a unique circumstance. In other words, aren’t safe just because they are unique.

 

[N3ON]

Technical limitations didn't stop ZSS who was also a newcomer in Brawl so that argument doesn’t work. They were cut simply because they weren’t deemed important priority, not because they had to unlike with the Ice Climbers.

They were not cut simply because they weren't deemed high enough priority, they were cut because they were deemed insufficient priority after technical limitations altered the paradigm of the character. Thus, being affected by technical limitations.

Their omission was twofold, one being relevant in my exclusion of them. Only looking at their low priority is starting the story halfway through.

Moreover, with little likelihood of ever getting a new Smash on a system less powerful than the current one, the category of existing characters hindered by technical limitations seemingly no longer risks proximity to the chopping block, therefore making a non-issue of the factor, leaving just the one which was my main point (and third-parties).

 

[True Blue Warrior]

They were not cut simply because they weren't deemed high enough priority,

Yes they were, otherwise ZSS would also be cut.

 

[N3ON]

Yes they were, otherwise ZSS would also be cut.

So if there were no 3DS version, and Smash 4 just existed on the Wii U, Ivysaur and Squirtle still wouldn't be there?

They were excluded for two compounding reasons. One lead to the other.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

So if there were no 3DS version, and Smash 4 just existed on the Wii U, Ivysaur and Squirtle still wouldn't be there?

Yes.

 

[N3ON]

Yes.

So you see ZSS and Samus separated due to limitations. You see Zelda and Sheik separated due to limitations. You see ICs cut because of limitations. But you see Ivysaur and Squirtle not return, the only other original fighters to not return (who aren't third-party), and who also happen to be transformation characters, and, aware of the limitations imposed on multi-character characters, you nevertheless believe their exclusion is mere coincidence and would've happened all the same in total absence of technical barriers?

Well, if that's the case... I understand your argument, but disagree entirely.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

So you see ZSS and Samus separated due to limitations. You see Zelda and Sheik separated due to limitations. You see ICs cut because of limitations. But you see Ivysaur and Squirtle not return, the only original fighters to not return (who aren't third-party), and who also happen to be transformation characters, and, aware of the limitations imposed on multi-character characters, you nevertheless believe their exclusion is mere coincidence and would've happened all the same in total absence of technical barriers?

Yes.

Mewtwo was cut in Brawl and Ness was originally going to be cut in Melee.

 

[N3ON]

Yes.
Mewtwo was cut in Brawl and Ness was originally going to be cut in Melee.

Exactly. It can happen, but there's one instance across five games whereas in the very same game there are three other examples of multi-character characters affected. Four, if you include Olimar and his Pikmin.

You kinda have to be willfully ignoring the evidence at hand to not see the relationship here.

 

[Pillow]

You know how many unique first-party characters have been cut, that weren't attributable to technical constraints?

One. And that probably wouldn't have happened if not for Sonic throwing the schedule off.

You know how many derivative characters have been cut?

Seven.

It's not a coincidence. Sakurai's analogy depicts them as supplemental characters, and with that comes a lower priority for many of them. Supplemental things tend to be less crucial. It seems to me that this category being considered among the least likely to be cut is backwards. I would put them right up there with third-parties as a group most likely to have cuts.

From a resource perspective, the argument for their retention is sound. It is less intensive to bring them back than unique characters. But that's not Smash's, or maybe Sakurai's, outlook. That's not how it works. Often they're added late, and cut readily; they're seen as expendable, and prioritized thusly. I expect that to endure, and I expect several won't be back once the axe comes out. Especially if the cuts are comprehensive.

While this is true, if Sakurai is directing the next Smash game I feel we won’t be seeing any character cuts anyway, or as few cuts as possible. I’m not sure he will be though, in which case this policy of cutting clone character first might change.

 

[N3ON]

While this is true, if Sakurai is directing the next Smash game I feel we won’t be seeing any character cuts anyway, or as few cuts as possible. I’m not sure he will be though, in which case this policy of cutting clone character first might change.

I can't speak to the hypothetical habits of a different director. They might stay the same, they might vary completely. The entire roster may get rebooted, in which case a bunch of clones would get cut, along with many other characters.

But I did say 'once the axe comes out' advisedly. Because I don't know when it will. It is possible they continue to build on this base. In which case maybe they can retain it all. But if not, the only cuts would probably be third-parties they failed to reacquire. I was more speaking of when cuts are actually deliberate instead of nonexistent or out of their hands, though.

Personally I'm not as confident as others are that they will just build off this game going forward. It'd be nice, and smart, but it's also not really Nintendo's MO. Plus, part of the reason Ultimate even happened as it did was owing to Nintendo truncating the Wii U's lifespan and expediting their big names so as to better foster the Switch. They won't need to do that this time, and I imagine it will be quite a while before the next Smash.

Though who knows, Nintendo is nothing if not hard to predict.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Ike is no longer relevant (aside from Heroes)

He's the most popular male character according to the first CYL. Heroes has a lot higher sales than any other FE game, and I bet more players (I don't feel like looking that up). It's absurd to brush that aside.

 

[Otoad64]

He's the most popular male character according to the first CYL. Heroes has a lot higher sales than any other FE game, and I bet more players (I don't feel like looking that up). It's absurd to brush that aside.

why does the first one matter? Wouldn't the most recent one be a better indication of who's popular?

I don't really know Fire Emblem though so I could be wrong

 

[AmphabulouSnake]

Yo, I don't know if it's been mentionned in this thread already, but does anyone know if Pyra/Mythra take up two slots or one slot on the datamine WoL stuff?

 

[skylanders fan]

why does the first one matter? Wouldn't the most recent one be a better indication of who's popular?

I don't really know Fire Emblem though so I could be wrong

Only reason I could think is maybe the first poll had more people doing it

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Yo, I don't know if it's been mentionned in this thread already, but does anyone know if Pyra/Mythra take up two slots or one slot on the datamine WoL stuff?

Two, but they added two more slots for some reason. There’s 10 remaining still to this day. Not that it matters cause the 91-before-crashing-thing still hasn’t been fixed

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

why does the first one matter? Wouldn't the most recent one be a better indication of who's popular?

I don't really know Fire Emblem though so I could be wrong

In the first poll, any character could be chosen, and the prizes were unknown. Subsequent polls (of which I'm aware) had previous winners excluded, and voters would have known the prizes were probably special versions of the winning units.

 

[Otoad64]

The first one had all characters available.

oh, I see.

Why don't the other ones have all the characters?

 

[PeridotGX]

oh, I see.

Why don't the other ones have all the characters?

they don't allow the top two winners from the previous years. For example, next year they won't allow Gatekeeper, Chrom, Erika, and Marianne, because they won this year.

 

[DarthEnderX]

F-Zero didn't do as well as other series included

Neither did Fire Emblem. But it kept getting new characters.

Fire Emblem is one of Nintendo's bigger series these days

These days, yes. But not when it started getting more characters.

Bottom line is, this notion you have of new releases NEEDING representation is nonsense. It's never BEEN the case. Nintendo just pushes whoever they feel like. It's not consistent. And if FE characters keep getting massive backlashes, they might stop doing it every game.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Neither did Fire Emblem. But it kept getting new characters.

Because of bonus clones () and advertising opportunities ().

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Neither did Fire Emblem. But it kept getting new characters.

These days, yes. But not when it started getting more characters.

Bottom line is, this notion you have of new releases NEEDING representation is nonsense. It's never BEEN the case. Nintendo just pushes whoever they feel like. It's not consistent. And if FE characters keep getting massive backlashes, they might stop doing it every game.

Eh, Roy was literally a last minute clone and Ike was added because Sakurai wanted a swordie who played like a heavy and Ike just so happened to fit the bill, after that, FE became a major success.