Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[JamesDNaux]

Most of the arguments against Rayman's inclusions I've seen haven't had anything to do with him being a Ubisoft character.

I've seen plenty of people continually saying "the Ubisoft costumes would have come with Rayman so he won't be a fighter" and that was the point of the post.

If anything, it's a point in his favor as Nintendo and Ubisoft have demonstrated that they actually have a very good working relationship.

Agreed.

The biggest reasons people find Rayman unlikely is he's the star of a relatively dormant franchise that is very obscure in Japan, and Smash picks tend to be very Japan-centric and that trend has continued in FP2.

Our very first fully western character was from a far, far more dormant franchise.
As for Smash being Japan centric, true, but as we've seen with two characters already, Sakurai isn't allergic to throwing western characters a bone. Smash was Nintendo focused once upon a time, then we got two third party characters and we thought that was a lot, boy those were the days.

And Rayman isn't as dormant as people think, his latest game has a definitive port on the Switch, it's still as fresh in the gaming sphere as the likes of ARMS and Xenoblade. And as you said, Nintendo and Ubisoft have a great working relationship, which would certainly be reason enough to get Rayman into Smash.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Mii Costumes disconfirm, except for Sans because i don't want that one to disconfirm.

it's sad because i unironically believe that

There there, I thought Rex had a chance...

Granted, that one was complicated, but still.

 

[Pillow]

Rayman's in an awkward spot, he's pretty wellknown but so heavily overshadowed by bigger franchises from the same company and even the ****ing spinoff characters from his own game, doesn't help Michelle Ancel's the only one who seems to bother making his games at Ubisoft, which is pretty bad considering he's been working on Beyond Good and Evil 2 for like 5 years before retiring/evading bad press in October iirc, which is probably why he never gets talked about much, a franchise's wellbeing tends to help spark discussion on it. Personally, I don't remember much of the franchise beyond hating Rayman 1 on the GBA but liking Rayman 3's console game.

I'm not sure I would consider the Rabbids specifically to be competition for Rayman, since they could very easily be incorporated into his moveset and that seems like something Sakurai might be interested in doing especially after we received a character with a similar long limb gimmick in Min Min. I would say Assassin's creed is his biggest competition from Ubisoft, but Ezio got a Mii costume so, eh.

The big thing is that there's only 2 slots left, and Rayman really isn't that well known, even here in the West.

I've seen plenty of people continually saying "the Ubisoft costumes would have come with Rayman so he won't be a fighter" and that was the point of the post.


Agreed.


Our very first fully western character was from a far, far more dormant franchise.
As for Smash being Japan centric, true, but as we've seen with two characters already, Sakurai isn't allergic to throwing western characters a bone. Smash was Nintendo focused once upon a time, then we got two third party characters and we thought that was a lot, boy those were the days.

Rayman isn't as dormant as people think, his latest game has a definitive port on the Switch, it's still as fresh in the gaming sphere as the likes of ARMS and Xenoblade. And as you said, Nintendo and Ubisoft have a great working relationship, which would certainly be reason enough to get Rayman into Smash.

Well people who count Ubisoft out of pass 2 because of the costumes from pass 1 are just being silly then.

Banjo & Kazooie would never have gotten in, if not for the massive amount of support they had from Smash fandom. Support that Rayman is lacking. And I wasn't trying to be so down on Rayman's chances or anything. I just think he has a lot going against him, Ubisoft hasn't seemed to show a particular interest in him as an IP, and the timing isn't great for him.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

The best thing that Lloyd had going for him was the Tales of leak.


With P/M here, I think we're all just kinda expecting the inevitable at this point. Like, the moment you saw Sephiroth, you kinda had to imagine "Yeah, Geno's ****ed", lol.

I’m thinking P&M are more a death knell for the MonHuns

yeah. Like I said when I first saw the name Abyssal Lagiacrus I thought that was a Xenoblade UM

 

[True Blue Warrior]

In fairness, that is a lot of sword characters and a lot of the sword characters share a similar build and artystyle giving them a less diverse feel than hand to hand fighters.

This is pretty much the only reason why the “punchy” characters gets a free pass. The first group in that list have a greater variation in terms of body types and silhouettes overall compared to the sword group.

 

[Shroob]

To be fair, Byleth was announced after FP2 had already been locked in, so I imagine that's where most people's skepticism comes from - I know that's why I personally feel that way. On top of the fact that Ubisoft never had costumes before, as opposed to...



The thing is, there's no feasible reality where they would outright cut the Monster Hunter costumes entirely. The strange part about MH's situation is that vomit of costumes just halting once FP2 started without Monster Hunter appearing whatsoever. If Capcom had no returning costumes to speak of and got the same treatment I wouldn't be nearly as positive about their odds of getting something this time around.

But I mean, Rayman can still happen. I just think that it's reasonable to have some skepticism about those costumes too.

Byleth was announced after FP2 was locked in, but Byleth had already been picked long before that moment. I do remember that like, either a day or a few hours after the final presentation that Sakurai tweeted out that the choices for FP1 had already been finalized.

And I agree that the Monster Hunter costumes will come back, in one way or another, be it playable or costumes, but in the end, a lack of costumes isn't exactly evidence either, because they could just as easily show up in the P/M presentation with 0 fanfare to speak of.


A lack of something isn't evidence, just something to keep an eye on. something that the Geno fanbase really needed to learn tbh

 

[MrMcNuts]

Rayman's in an awkward spot, he's pretty wellknown but so heavily overshadowed by bigger franchises from the same company and even the ****ing spinoff characters from his own game, doesn't help Michelle Ancel's the only one who seems to bother making his games at Ubisoft, which is pretty bad considering he's been working on Beyond Good and Evil 2 for like 5 years before retiring/evading bad press in October iirc, which is probably why he never gets talked about much, a franchise's wellbeing tends to help spark discussion on it. Personally, I don't remember much of the franchise beyond hating Rayman 1 on the GBA but liking Rayman 3's console game.

I mean if your spin off series had a crossover with Mario himself then of course it's gonna gain massive popularity. People don't seem to remember that Rabbids go home is the only standalone rabbids game without rayman or someone else that sold well. The rest of the games sold pretty poorly. Doesn't matter bout rabbids or Assassin's creed anyways since megaman and banjo prove that you don't need to be the biggest ips in your company.

And nah Rayman gets plenty of discussion on other sites. Like I said this site can be kinda negative about him from what I've seen, so I feel his fans don't stick around here to discuss him much. None of us think he's a lock though, just that people can be a little overly pessimistic when it comes to him.

 

[Shroob]

I’m thinking P&M are more a death knell for the MonHuns

yeah. Like I said when I first saw the name Abyssal Lagiacrus I thought that was a Xenoblade UM

Why not both?


Truth be told, both costumes make about as much sense to launch alongside P/M, and if both do? Hoo boy things are gonna get weird.

 

[Pillow]

I’m thinking P&M are more a death knell for the MonHuns

yeah. Like I said when I first saw the name Abyssal Lagiacrus I thought that was a Xenoblade UM

If the MonHuns don't show up though, then my Phoenix Wright stonks will shoot to the moon!

Why not both?


Truth be told, both costumes make about as much sense to launch alongside P/M, and if both do? Hoo boy things are gonna get weird.

On the other hand, if MonHun and by extent, Capcom as a whole, gets "deconfirmed" with Pyra's stream then I'm going all in on Master Chief.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Why not both?


Truth be told, both costumes make about as much sense to launch alongside P/M, and if both do? Hoo boy things are gonna get weird.

And then I'll be handing out the popcorn for everyone's salt.

Wait...

 

[JamesDNaux]

I would say Assassin's creed is his biggest competition from Ubisoft, but Ezio got a Mii costume so, eh.

And I wasn't trying to be so down on Rayman's chances or anything. I just think he has a lot going against him, Ubisoft hasn't seemed to show a particular interest in him as an IP, and the timing isn't great for him.

We actually know that Ubisoft has been pushing for Rayman specifically as a fighter in Smash, which was what led to his trophies and now spirit, so there's nothing to worry about from any other Ubisoft franchise, it's all a matter of if the deals ever went through. Steve took five years to happen, so who knows...

The big thing is that there's only 2 slots left, and Rayman really isn't that well known, even here in the West.

Rayman not being all that big works to his benefit for getting in this late, since they frontload the huge characters and put stuff like Bayo and Terry towards the end.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Public service announcement:
DEconfirmed is not a word.

DISconfirmed is a word.

 

[MrMcNuts]

The big thing is that there's only 2 slots left, and Rayman really isn't that well known, even here in the West.


Well people who count Ubisoft out of pass 2 because of the costumes from pass 1 are just being silly then.

Banjo & Kazooie would never have gotten in, if not for the massive amount of support they had from Smash fandom. Support that Rayman is lacking. And I wasn't trying to be so down on Rayman's chances or anything. I just think he has a lot going against him, Ubisoft hasn't seemed to show a particular interest in him as an IP, and the timing isn't great for him.

Rayman is easily more known than the likes of Terry, MinMin, Pyra and at least a few others in smash, he has enough icon status and gaming history.

And ignoring the fact he's among one of the most requested Characters, the idea that a character NEEDS to be on Banjos level of demand is silly. A big demand is still a big demand after all

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I'm not sure I would consider the Rabbids specifically to be competition for Rayman, since they could very easily be incorporated into his moveset and that seems like something Sakurai might be interested in doing especially after we received a character with a similar long limb gimmick in Min Min. I would say Assassin's creed is his biggest competition from Ubisoft, but Ezio got a Mii costume so, eh.

The big thing is that there's only 2 slots left, and Rayman really isn't that well known, even here in the West.

I mean. The franchise those ****ers spawned has been significantly more prominent, iirc they even got multiple comics and magazines, Rabbids were pretty much everywhere, hell, look at Mario and Rabbids, Rayman's nowhere at all in that. As for Rayman using Rabbids in his moveset, I don't think that'd really go well due to fans blaming the Rabbids for making Rayman dormant all the time, especially as Rayman can throw mother****ing BEARTRAP HOOKSHOTS THAT ELECTROCUTE YOU HOLY **** THAT'S COOL. Also, Altaïr has the Mii Costume, not Ezio, Altaïr's super popular in Japan.


That's my point, Rayman's never really flopped from what I can tell but he's so overshadowed by pretty much everything.

I mean if your spin off series had a crossover with Mario himself then of course it's gonna gain massive popularity. People don't seem to remember that Rabbids go home is the only standalone rabbids game without rayman or someone else that sold well. The rest of the games sold pretty poorly. Doesn't matter bout rabbids or Assassin's creed anyways since megaman and banjo prove that you don't need to be the biggest ips in your company.

And nah Rayman gets plenty of discussion on other sites. Like I said this site can be kinda negative about him from what I've seen, so I feel his fans don't stick around here to discuss him much. None of us think he's a lock though, just that people can be a little overly pessimistic when it comes to him.

I was just putting out thoughts on the reasons why Rayman doesn't get discussed much here, and I haven't seen anyone accuse fans of claiming he's a lock or anything at all. Again, I don't have the biggest opinions on the series

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

Other Weapons:

Other Weapons = hammers

This is a good list for reference, though.

 

[Shroob]

And then I'll be handing out the popcorn for everyone's salt.

Wait...

Salt? Hardly.


I'd feel bad for people expecting another Capcom character sure, but all of a sudden, we'd be in completely uncharted water. No Mii costumes that need importing from Smash 4, no leaks at all would survive it, and the next character would be, for all intents, the E3 reveal.

 

[Mamboo07]

Most of the arguments against Rayman's inclusions I've seen haven't had anything to do with him being a Ubisoft character. If anything, it's a point in his favor as Nintendo and Ubisoft have demonstrated that they actually have a very good working relationship. The biggest reasons people find Rayman unlikely is he's the star of a relatively dormant franchise that is very obscure in Japan, and Smash picks tend to be very Japan-centric and that trend has continued in FP2.


In fairness, that is a lot of sword characters and a lot of the sword characters share a similar build and artystyle giving them a less diverse feel than hand to hand fighters.

Don't forget that people say Rayman will never be in Smash due to being in Brawlhalla which is stupid.

 

[Dinoman96]

In regards to Rayman, I just don't see a Japan centric company like Nintendo being interested in a mid tier western franchise that's almost completely obscure in their home country.

Like I think it's pretty telling that the first ever western IP they were interested in including in Smash was the game that, you know, became the very best selling foreign game in Japan (Minecraft), and that led the way for Banjo, a fan favorite former Nintendo mascot that performed moderately well in Japan during the N64 era.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Altaïr's super popular in Japan.

As a giant Assassin’s Creed fan I actually did not but hot DAMN the Japanese always got good taste.

 

[SharkLord]

Public service announcement:
DEconfirmed is not a word.

DISconfirmed is a word.

Language changes. As speaker of this language, I have to power to drive that change. Ergo, %$#@ it I'm adding "deconfirmed" to Urban Dictionary and you can't stop me.

 

[chocolatejr9]

As a giant Assassin’s Creed fan I actually did not but hot DAMN the Japanese always got good taste.

But of course! Why do you think Nintendo prioritises them?

Aside from being Japanese themselves.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

I'm going to have to pull out my etymology post again, aren't I?

 

[Idon]

I have a compromise.

A punchy character...

Spoiler

that summons swords.

Spoiler

 

[Louie G.]

Byleth was announced after FP2 was locked in, but Byleth had already been picked long before that moment. I do remember that like, either a day or a few hours after the presentation that Sakurai tweeted out that the choices for FP1 had already been finalized.

Yeah of course, I wasn't trying to imply that though.

I'm sure that Heihachi and Geno costumes, for example, were always planned to return and were explicitly held off for FP2 for whatever reason (perhaps Geno syncing up with a Final Fantasy character felt more fitting, etc).

Since FP2 had been locked in, it just makes me suspicious of Ubisoft since the costumes could have easily been readjusted to better suit future plans. There's nothing that distinctly ties Byleth together with Altair and Rabbids, so they could have really dropped at any time they wanted. That's why I bring up FP2 plans, I'm aware that Byleth had been planned way beforehand.

It's all negligible though, at this point it's a matter of perspective. I'm not seeing it myself but I'm not going to act like Mii costume releases are an absolute rule of thumb when crazier walls have been broken... but so far it hasn't let me down yet (Geno and Chocobo's absence hinted me in on a new SE character, etc). Since for what it's worth, we didn't get a Rayman costume outright (although we did get Rabbid, that's my biggest hangup).

 

[N3ON]

They obviously knew when and how they were going to distribute which costume at some point pretty early in the DLC. For example, otherwise Geno and Chocobo would've come with Hero, but they were saved for the Square character in the next pass. And that was way back with CP2.

FP2 has come with a reevaluation of base content, but not FP1-era content, because most of that was done already knowing how the following pass would proceed. Stuff like spirit events and Mii costumes were made in tandem with the DLC, so as to eliminate overlap. And Rayman showing up later wouldn't be overlap, but I do believe it would've been coordinated with costumes from his company. Especially the Rabbids.

And I'd say the same about a Bethesda character.

So I stand by my belief that the Ubisoft costumes hinder Rayman's chances. Though I never claimed they outright invalidated them. Having said that, I do believe Rayman is unlikely for reasons more than just that, which don't have anything to do with Ubisoft specifically.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

As a giant Assassin’s Creed fan I actually did not but hot DAMN the Japanese always got good taste.

My experience with the franchise is being forced to watch the movie at a friend's birthday so I can't speak for any specific ****, but I think Xander Mobus mentioned that Altaïr was a name they asked him to say for Smash 4 recordings. Not because he was planned and scrapped but because Nintendo always throws up fake names to make sure the announcers can't really leak it

 

[DevaAshera]

"But there's more ways to punch than swing a sword!" Some guy who popped off at Min Min who has the exact same kind of punch for half of her entire moveset probably

Yeah, people don't realize that sword fighting has as many different styles and types as any other martial arts.

In fairness, that is a lot of sword characters and a lot of the sword characters share a similar build and artystyle giving them a less diverse feel than hand to hand fighters.

Not really. The artstyles are actually pretty diverse, just similar in proportions and being human-like, they only look distinctly Japanese in artstyle, which Westerners tend to just lump together as 'anime'. The art styles look about as different as Mario & Toon Link or Sonic & Crash Bandicoot, who could similarly be called 'cartoon characters'

 

[MrMcNuts]

In regards to Rayman, I just don't see a Japan centric company like Nintendo being interested in a mid tier western franchise that's almost completely obscure in their home country.

Like I think it's pretty telling that the first ever western IP they were interested in including in Smash was the game that, you know, became the very best selling foreign game in Japan (Minecraft), and that led the way for Banjo, a fan favorite former Nintendo mascot that performed moderately well in Japan during the N64 era.

The "not popular in Japan" arguement is gonna be broken eventually with characters like Ray getting more and more demanded each game. By Smash 7 at least they'll be running out of interesting 3rd party japanese characters and will eventually start looking to what're some popular western requests. Sure it's an assumption but it makes sense

 

[Pillow]

Public service announcement:
DEconfirmed is not a word.

DISconfirmed is a word.

Not my Smash speculation. I'll say whelmed too, nobody can stop me!

Rayman is easily more known than the likes of Terry, MinMin, Pyra and at least a few others in smash, he has enough icon status and gaming history.

And ignoring the fact he's among one of the most requested Characters, the idea that a character NEEDS to be on Banjos level of demand is silly. A big demand is still a big demand after all

I never claimed he did not have a legacy. He's about on the same level as Terry, so I suppose it's possible. He shouldn't be compared to Nintendo 1st parties, though. And Banjo's demand was much higher than Rayman's. I respect the points you Rayman fans are making in his favor, but I still personally believe that majority of Smash fans find him to be somewhat of a milquetoast inclusion so the points in his favor are not enough to propel him to the status of being a likely character.

Also, Altaïr has the Mii Costume, not Ezio, Altaïr's super popular in Japan.

Ah, right. Ezio's the better character though. Japan, as always, is wrong.

Yeah, people don't realize that sword fighting has as many different styles and types as any other martial arts.

Not really. The artstyles are actually pretty diverse, just similar in proportions and being human-like, they only look distinctly Japanese in artstyle, which Westerners tend to just lump together as 'anime'. The art styles look about as different as Mario & Toon Link or Sonic & Crash Bandicoot, who could similarly be called 'cartoon characters'

Yes, "anime" is an artstyle people categorize them together is. I'd also say your example of Mario and Crash Bandicoot as "Cartoony" is another accurate category. If we got Bubsy, Gex, Crash, and Spyro as DLC characters in short succession, I bet people would complain about too many cereal box mascots too.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Our very first fully western character was from a far, far more dormant franchise.
As for Smash being Japan centric, true, but as we've seen with two characters already, Sakurai isn't allergic to throwing western characters a bone. Smash was Nintendo focused once upon a time, then we got two third party characters and we thought that was a lot, boy those were the days.

And Rayman isn't as dormant as people think, his latest game has a definitive port on the Switch, it's still as fresh in the gaming sphere as the likes of ARMS and Xenoblade. And as you said, Nintendo and Ubisoft have a great working relationship, which would certainly be reason enough to get Rayman into Smash.

Not comparable. One had among the biggest fan, the other while requested was nowhere close to the levels of that of the bear and bird duo as well as K. Rool, and Ridley.

 

[JamesDNaux]

Rayman might not be huge these days, but his first game is the reason Ubisoft is even on the map as a company. People forget that his first two games were massively financially and critically successful. Rayman 1 was the best selling PS1 game in the UK and Rayman 2 got review scores the likes of Ocarina of Time.

Hell, people even think the Rabbids have overtaken him since they're all over the place, but the volume of games doesn't beat out the success of the fewer Rayman games. The Rayman series still outsells the Rabbids (and Castlevania for that matter, as a reference point for a series already in Smash).

His only real point of contention is the aforementioned lack of presence in Japan, which is a fair point to make. But with Ubisoft being the biggest producer of third party content for the Switch, even to the point where Nintendo let them make a Mario game, they're definitely in a position for Nintendo to consider giving them a spot in Smash. And Rayman is who Ubisoft wants in Smash. Still waiting for those "future collaborations with Nintendo" they mentioned...

 

[N3ON]

Altaïr's super popular in Japan.

Is this true? What's the basis here?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Yeah, people don't realize that sword fighting has as many different styles and types as any other martial arts.

I'd get that as Sakurai does seem to primarily focus on basic sword swings or finesse strikes, but he also tends to do the most basic **** for punchy kicky dudes, so it still ends up being hypocritical bull****. Like, one of the most visually impressive characters to me is Little Mac because you can Sakurai actually tried doing different stuff from the usual punches and it's great. Sure, Mac's core design doesn't really fit boxing or Punch Out but you can tell there was a lot more effort put into Mac's normals than most characters.

 

[rexfan53]

Pyra and Mythra our first polyamorous character, let's ****ing goooooooooooooooo.

yeah but mythras love interest is dead lol and that isnt a spoiler

 

[Idon]

I will not accept that we have reached the limit on what we can do with sword characters until one of them does this:

yeah but mythras love interest is dead lol and that isnt a spoiler

and even if he wasn't, he's taken :V

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Also Rayman's in a similar position to Spyro apparently, popular and requested but did poorly in Japan and lack of popularity there.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Well fine then, y’all be illiterate. Don’t ask me to proofread your college essays though.

Rayman is big enough of a character to be acknowledged as an icon by Nintendo themselves in Trailers and even Smash itself. People can argue the semantics of whether he is or isn’t “as big” as other characters but it doesn’t really matter because someone can come into most the places on the internet where games or Smash is discussed and say “I want Rayman in Smash” and everyone knows exactly who you’re talking about.

 

[chocolatejr9]

yeah but mythras love interest is dead lol and that isnt a spoiler

It's true, but you shouldn't say it...

 

[Louie G.]

For what it's worth, as much as I'm skeptical I'd be really happy to have Rayman in the game. Rayman Origins is among my favorite platformers ever, I love the potential and general vibe he would bring alongside him too. If we had to get another cartoony platforming mascot I'd want it to be him.

It is pretty striking that a company like Ubisoft, which is not only a major player on Nintendo consoles but was once one of the single closest third party partners (hence why Rayman was seen as such a strong possibility in Smash 4 DLC) and has been trusted with MARIO of all things... is still limited to the pretty sparse content that it has now. If nothing else I feel like Rayman should have gotten bumped up to AT status, if there are no further plans for him.

 

[Shroob]

So anyway


Again, guesses as to when the P/M presentation, not their release date, will drop?


Unless we're super lucky and the Presentation is this coming week, with a release date of the week after, the first three weeks, and the last week of March all seem like viable candidates, with the 4th week of March seeming a bit dicey due to Rise coming out that week.