Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Guynamednelson]

on the other hand, you are making up a reason to try and completely dismiss the character without evidence simply because, i dunno, he's popular and ate your dog.

Well "he'd be too simple for a DLC fighter" doesn't work because I just get met with "well I want a simple character".

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I just came back for the first time in a month to pure chaos, what happened?

Someone said the slots in the internal data can change at will and as such can’t be used to deduce patterns

...they then trolled us with a fake codename

 

[Megadoomer]

Wait when was Sub-Zero and Chun-li considered for PSASBR?

I knew of Haysbusa, Tomba, and Lightning however.

If this is accurate, their names were seen on a whiteboard by a former employee. No source is provided, though, so there's no way to know if it actually happened. (unless there is a source out there and I'm not aware of it)

I'm not sure where Tomba and Lightning were hinted at, but I know that Ryu Hayabusa was shown on the official website along with Jin and Kazuya from Tekken. Kind of weird for those three to be included in official material, seeing as they weren't playable and Koei-Tecmo wasn't involved in the game.

It'd be nice if they gave that concept another chance. They'd just need to come up with an alternative to only supers killing (to make it so what you do outside of using supers actually matters) - even if they mainly focused on first party titles (since I feel like third party companies would either be hesitant after PSASBR or would use it as an opportunity to blatantly promote upcoming games), I'd think that they could have a solid line-up.

 

[SKX31]

That was literally one example from nearly seven years ago, back when Nintendo's marketing was completely wack during the Wii U era.

And them revealing Mii Fighters and Palu in the same Direct was just them fully revealing the character customization feature and getting it out of the way to update the website and stuff.

I honestly think it's partly because of hindsight, Miis and Palu might not be the most super-duper requested things ever (or the Pittoo tease) but they are not bad reveals in theory. The Miis had an established presence on both the Wii and Wii U, Palu and Dark Pit came right after Uprising - which was successful, and KI looked to be on the rise.

But to go into why I think it was partly hindsight: The Miis were a mess in Smash 4 (as evidenced by them not being playable online, which contributed to their competitive ban). And Palu was the character chosen to highlight Custom Moves, which in theory is a great thing to have. But Custom Moves were borken too. Not just because some moves like Palu's SuperSpeed, DK Tornado or WFT's enourmous volleyballs were absurdly good (and some like Jigglypuff's Spinphony were terrible) but also since Specials - ordinary or Customs - didn't have good synergy with her normals. It's worth noting that both Autoreticle and Explosive Flame were both Neutral B moves, meaning that they couldn't be on the same moveset. And she had her Reflect as her default Side B (where SuperSpeed is) and Counter as her default Down B - which can be a problem casually. Counter was also the weakest Counter in Smash 4 - a game that was filled with strong Counters.

Again, they were neat ideas, but I'm not surprised that both Miis and Palu were overhauled with Ultimate.

I'm not sure where Tomba and Lightning were hinted at, but I know that Ryu Hayabusa was shown on the official website along with Jin and Kazuya from Tekken. Kind of weird for those three to be included in official material, seeing as they weren't playable and Koei-Tecmo wasn't involved in the game.

It'd be nice if they gave that concept another chance. They'd just need to come up with an alternative to only supers killing (to make it so what you do outside of using supers actually matters) - even if they mainly focused on first party titles (since I feel like third party companies would either be hesitant after PSASBR or would use it as an opportunity to blatantly promote upcoming games), I'd think that they could have a solid line-up.

If I had to spitball a guess, it would be that Ryu and Jin / Kazuya were seriously considered for PSASBR (which isn't farfetched - not only with that poster but also considering Heihachi's presence) but they couldn't get the rights to Ryu. We have to remember that corps generally want to be sure that whatever they're investing in is worth it economically (corps are structured around that principle in general) so it's possible that Koei-Tecmo - if they talked with SuperBot that is - didn't think PSASBR was worth it. Ditto potentially Activision.

I do agree on the alternative to only supers killing (casually it becomes stale, competitively it encourages characters that can kill-confirm way too much) - perhaps something like total damage dealt and / or using a Stamina-esque mechanic? Total damage dealt could also be an interesting side mode / ruleset for Smash for that matter.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

It'd be nice if they gave that concept another chance. They'd just need to come up with an alternative to only supers killing (to make it so what you do outside of using supers actually matters) - even if they mainly focused on first party titles (since I feel like third party companies would either be hesitant after PSASBR or would use it as an opportunity to blatantly promote upcoming games), I'd think that they could have a solid line-up.

Same here. I'd love to see War of the Monsters represented even if just a stage.

Only character I could see work would be Kineticlops since he isn't a physical being could be resized as shown in Downhill Domination.

I would also love to see Raven from Gravity Rush and Until Dawn getting stage representation.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I feel it's best to just consider Mii Fighters the big e3 regular reveal at this point. Palutena was there cause, you know, customs. And Pac-Man being behind closed doors makes it a non-regular reveal.

Palutena didn't make the reveal less big for Mii Fighters even then. It just highlighted them more. She's also a very popular character to begin with, so that still helped a lot.

Dark Pit is awkward. Besides not having an actual trailer(or newcomer/tagline given), he isn't listed as a newcomer or veteran on the Smash For website either. The theory is that the clone trio were worked on after Palutena's Trailer was made, but before Lucina/Robin's was made as well. This actually makes a lot of sense and fixes any situation. That said, they still should've made the website accurate. It's fine if he didn't get a tagline. He was already in a trailer anyway. But Dark Pit not being listed as one officially on the official website is really awkward. I forgot if any other languages fixed that issue, though? It's been a while.

 

[Guynamednelson]

because you couldn't handle a guy posting a PSABR video and mentioned Crash got talked about

No, that PSASBR video had nothing to do with it. I'm just so ****ing sick of people thinking Crash is a lock and not considering reasons why he wouldn't be and we'd get someone less iconic.

 

[Bobthealligator]

That was literally one example from nearly seven years ago, back when Nintendo's marketing was completely wack during the Wii U era.

And them revealing Mii Fighters and Palu in the same Direct was just them fully revealing the character customization feature and getting it out of the way to update the website and stuff.

I'm going to defend this. Palutena and the Miis were revealed at E3 because Nintendo was pushing how customisable Smash 4 was in that presesntation, and that was those character's gimmicks. When you consider that, having PacMan be less of a big deal makes a lot more sense.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Haven't been on here for two days. What did I miss?

 

[SNEKeater]

No, that PSASBR video had nothing to do with it. I'm just so ****ing sick of people thinking Crash is a lock and not considering reasons why he wouldn't be and we'd get someone less iconic.

I mean yeah but you can find people thinking similar for other characters, not only Crash. Or have you missed how since Sephiroth a lot of people have started leaning towards Chun-Li and Lloyd/Yuri? Those aren't small names if you ask me, specially Chun-Li.

I don't want to be mean but your fixation with Crash seems to come from you thinking we won't get more big names. Which is an okay point of view but I don't think said point needs to be reminded almost every day.

Edit: also, I don't agree with people not considering reasons why Crash couldn't be in. Not long ago people discussed if that cartoon Amazon canceled would be a bad sign for Crash in Smash, for example.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Haven't been on here for two days. What did I miss?

Me being worse than Hitler for thinking first-parties that aren't Cinderace might have a better chance than Crash.

Which is an okay point of view but I don't think said point needs to be reminded almost every day.

You're right, but what am I supposed to do when most of the characters I want are considered impossible like this pass never started with an ARMS rep?

 

[OffBrandANON]

No, that PSASBR video had nothing to do with it. I'm just so ****ing sick of people thinking Crash is a lock and not considering reasons why he wouldn't be and we'd get someone less iconic.

then why do you keep bringing it up?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'm going to defend this. Palutena and the Miis were revealed at E3 because Nintendo was pushing how customisable Smash 4 was in that presesntation, and that was those character's gimmicks. When you consider that, having PacMan be less of a big deal makes a lot more sense.

Not so much "less of a big deal" as "not what we want to show off about the game at this e3."

Pac-Man is mostly definitely a bigger deal than those two characters. Like, full stop. He's one of the top most iconic characters. Not being revealed at e3 suuuuuucked. All 3(well, 5) characters should've been regular e3 reveals. Or have Pac-Man have a separate reveal later on, instead of behind closed doors. Similar to what was done for Shulk. This way Nintendo can keep focus on customization(which is in itself a big deal for the game).

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

I still think Pac-Man looks out of place in Smash.

 

[3BitSaurus]

And she had her Reflect as her default Side B (where SuperSpeed is) and Counter as her default Down B - which can be a problem casually. Counter was also the weakest Counter in Smash 4 - a game that was filled with strong Counters.

A bit off-topic, but I kinda wish we had more characters with reflects/counters that AREN'T Down B. I know it has to do with Down normally being used for some sort of utility move, but it would spice things more imo.

 

[ForsakenM]

I still think Pac-Man looks out of place in Smash.

No where near as much as Steve though.

Even the 'gamer zoomers' who are used to Steve and how he looks call out how out-of-place he looks in Ultimate.

 

[OffBrandANON]

Haven't been on here for two days. What did I miss?

this guy keeps randomly bringing up how much they hate crash bandicoot for no apparent reason, acts like an asshole about it, claims that everyone is only talking about him(note: fairly certain the only two reason he's come up lately are him nd the psas anecdote), and claims this somehow helps the discussion of other characters(when it literally does the exact opposite).
also, some sora discourse involving someone claiming him to be inherently impossible for future games because he can, apparently, somehow only be a walking pile of disney ads.

 

[Speed Weed]

I just came back for the first time in a month to pure chaos, what happened?

things are this chaotic because Fighter 9 was revealed to be Amingo. You'd expect his reveal to unite the Smash community, but instead his inclusion was so perfect that it was overwhelming - having brought Armageddon upon this fanbase.

A small price to pay for funny cactus.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

A bit off-topic, but I kinda wish we had more characters with reflects/counters that AREN'T Down B. I know it has to do with Down normally being used for some sort of utility move, but it would spice things more imo.

I'm trying to think of a reason why it should have a different button combo for those kind of moves. Isn't that part of what is usually the point of Down B? Up B is generally a Recovery move, Neutral B is often a projectile or some kind of hard-focus move(like Falcon Punch or Giant Punch would be), Side B is quite often a Rush or Self Launch move. Down B is Utility. It seems more of a design philosophy here. Not saying they can't work otherwise, but changing it just because shouldn't be a thing. One should look at what works well for a Side B in those cases. Cape and Doctor's Cape work great for that. As did the Whip Chain that Sheik used to use. Sometimes it works fine for projectiles if it's a "holding right" kind of thing with Zelse(or if it's a Smash-based move with the Boomerangs and Missiles). It can vary.

That said, it's been done, so do you have any examples of ones that fit well otherwise for Side B? I could see Falco's Reflector fitting that well... if you replaced Phantasm entirely.

 

[ForsakenM]

things are this chaotic because Fighter 9 was revealed to be Amingo. You'd expect his reveal to unite the Smash community, but instead his inclusion was so perfect that it was overwhelming - having brought Armageddon upon this fanbase.

A small price to pay for funny cactus.

HOLY **** I LOVE AMINGO! I really miss him, Ruby Heart and Sonson.

This leads me to something that will never happen because of the demands of the fan base.

What does the Newcomer Thread think about an original Smash character being playable?

 

[SNEKeater]

You're right, but what am I supposed to do when most of the characters I want are considered impossible like this pass never started with an ARMS rep?

To be honest, I don't know. But I'm convinced that going against popular names won't help your most wanteds being more discussed. Bringing those characters and trying to spark discussion about them in a way that makes people curious or interested sounds like a good start to me. Easier said than done, but I can't think of a better way, unless we count leaks and all.

Obviously it doesn't work always because catching people's attention isn't easy, but there's always a second chance. Sometimes when I mention one of my most wanteds it works and the thread begins to talk about them, but then sometimes it doesn't work, which sucks but I just move on until I decide to try again.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

This discussion reminds me of the “No take, only throw” meme with the dog holding a frisbee in his mouth except its “No specifics, only first party”

Like, nobody comes in here and says “well i think we should get hyped about third parties.”, it’s just a pattern that arises that most of the characters people like and want to see are third party. But first party defenders seem like a monolith that are defending a concept most akin to Rex, Bandana Dee and a Pokémon in a trenchcoat calling itself “First Parties.”

I like lots of first parties, I think Bandana Dee is one of the more underrated characters right now, but right now the discussion around “first party” is weirdly centered around not mentioning any specific character.

Heck, I’d already see it as a great improvement if people didn’t follow up the “people talk about only ten characters” talk without then shilling something as ubiquitous as “we must think about the pokemon” as if that hasn’t been a free slot on speculation bingo since the dawn of time.

 

[OffBrandANON]

I'm trying to think of a reason why it should have a different button combo for those kind of moves. Isn't that part of what is usually the point of Down B? Up B is generally a Recovery move, Neutral B is often a projectile or some kind of hard-focus move(like Falcon Punch or Giant Punch would be), Side B is quite often a Rush or Self Launch move. Down B is Utility. It seems more of a design philosophy here. Not saying they can't work otherwise, but changing it just because shouldn't be a thing. One should look at what works well for a Side B in those cases. Cape and Doctor's Cape work great for that. As did the Whip Chain that Sheik used to use. Sometimes it works fine for projectiles if it's a "holding right" kind of thing with Zelse(or if it's a Smash-based move with the Boomerangs and Missiles). It can vary.

That said, it's been done, so do you have any examples of ones that fit well otherwise for Side B? I could see Falco's Reflector fitting that well... if you replaced Phantasm entirely.

eh, i'd say there's more variability than that; lot of nspecials are utility over hard focus moves(in fact, i'd sum it up as "the special the character is expected most to do"), decent amount of projectile fspecials and some hard focus, i'd say dspecial is often a sort of misc slot aswell.

 

[Guynamednelson]

This discussion reminds me of the “No take, only throw” meme with the dog holding a frisbee in his mouth except its “No specifics, only first party”

Like, nobody comes in here and says “well i think we should get hyped about third parties.”, it’s just a pattern that arises that most of the characters people like and want to see are third party. But first party defenders seem like a monolith that are defending a concept most akin to Rex, Bandana Dee and a Pokémon in a trenchcoat calling itself “First Parties.”

I like lots of first parties, I think Bandana Dee is one of the more underrated characters right now, but right now the discussion around “first party” is weirdly centered around not mentioning any specific character.

Heck, I’d already see it as a great improvement if people didn’t follow up the “people talk about only ten characters” talk without then shilling something as ubiquitous as “we must think about the pokemon” as if that hasn’t been a free slot on speculation bingo since the dawn of time.

Except I don't just have the "first parties aren't hype" thing to deal with. I also have people overly attached to side content acting like I'd be getting rid of something that has 9 million moves and is the very basis of Smash's coding by promoting an AT before Smash 6.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

What does the Newcomer Thread think about an original Smash character being playable?

I want Master Hand playable. We semi-have it with Mr. Game & Watch(who was redesigned as a character by combining all the games), Giga Bowser(actually made for Smash, and loosely based upon Giant Bowser. Unlike with Mr. Game & Watch, he's actually a lot more original, and has little in common besides using Bowser's animations. He doesn't resemble Giant Bowser in practice either. He's a proper OC), and Mii Fighters(they're a special interpretation meant only to exist in Smash, which is why they have the Smash symbol. The moveset is hard created for Smash alone).

I say "semi" because they weren't just made for Smash, but they took an official character and redesigned them to make them unique to Smash.

Master Hand is the first actual full out OC(I'm aware it's loosely based upon a Kirby boss. Wham Bam Rock... or was that the Super Mario 64 enemy?) in Smash, and was partially playable. He's also usable in other games by using cheat codes and/or the debug menu, and sometimes has a proper Smash moveset. In Melee/Brawl, Bosses do not have this and have weird button combos like L and R plus the D-Pad. But in Smash 64, he had mostly every single of the same move commands as Mario, etc., plus a true Side B.

That said, there's a lot of neat bosses who could be cool as playable. I'd love Giga Bowser separate(not that he's a straight OC, but eh) as an Echo/Clone(depending what the rules are, he could be either or). And under the Smash label like Mii Fighters are. Master Hand seems fine if they force all stages to be Final Destination/Battlefield as is. That would eliminate any oddities.

eh, i'd say there's more variability than that; lot of nspecials are utility over hard focus moves(in fact, i'd sum it up as "the special the character is expected most to do"), decent amount of projectile fspecials and some hard focus, i'd say dspecial is often a sort of misc slot aswell.

That's true. Utility is common with Down B, but it's not the only option. Depends if you consider Transformation/Pokemon Change a Utility move. Phantom Knight is more of a rush move instead. I feel like sometimes a key thing is the direction the move goes on might just be enough. A lot of Side B's actually go to the side alone for their animations.

 

[ForsakenM]

This discussion reminds me of the “No take, only throw” meme with the dog holding a frisbee in his mouth except its “No specifics, only first party”

Like, nobody comes in here and says “well i think we should get hyped about third parties.”, it’s just a pattern that arises that most of the characters people like and want to see are third party. But first party defenders seem like a monolith that are defending a concept most akin to Rex, Bandana Dee and a Pokémon in a trenchcoat calling itself “First Parties.”

I like lots of first parties, I think Bandana Dee is one of the more underrated characters right now, but right now the discussion around “first party” is weirdly centered around not mentioning any specific character.

Heck, I’d already see it as a great improvement if people didn’t follow up the “people talk about only ten characters” talk without then shilling something as ubiquitous as “we must think about the pokemon” as if that hasn’t been a free slot on speculation bingo since the dawn of time.

I'll add onto this a bit, and I hope nobody takes this as rude since there are many first party characters to be excited about, but the only ones anyone really pushes are someone from Xenoblade, a Gen 8 Pokemon, or the biggest possible 1st Party shill they can think of.

I'm sorry, but when the only characters you mention or argue about for 1st party are ones like this, people get bored and don't want to talk about it since not only have they talked about it a million times already, but frankly I think many Smash fans find all these picks to be boring and ones they do not want.

Add in that the community is so set in their dumb ways that they refuse to acknowledge Waluigi or Isaac/Matthew and there leaves little room to seriously and enjoyably discuss and 1st party choices.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Add in that the community is so set in their dumb ways that they refuse to acknowledge Waluigi or Isaac/Matthew and there leaves little room to seriously and enjoyably discuss and 1st party choices.

I would definitely be admitting that Isaac is one of the characters I wish to discuss if people would stop living in a fantasy world where an AT has more work put into it than a fighter.

 

[Otoad64]

What does the Newcomer Thread think about an original Smash character being playable?

if it's someone like sandbag or tabuu that'd be cool, but not a completely original character

 

[Mushroomguy12]

What does the Newcomer Thread think about an original Smash character being playable?

It's not really anywhere near my priority list, just cause there are still so many characters and series from the outside I still want.

 

[OffBrandANON]

wait, i know a perfect first party character:
Non-Specific Action Figure!

 

[Evil Trapezium]

No one is a lock but I think Crash Bandicoot just has more going for him than against him.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'll add onto this a bit, and I hope nobody takes this as rude since there are many first party characters to be excited about, but the only ones anyone really pushes are someone from Xenoblade, a Gen 8 Pokemon, or the biggest possible 1st Party shill they can think of.

I'm sorry, but when the only characters you mention or argue about for 1st party are ones like this, people get bored and don't want to talk about it since not only have they talked about it a million times already, but frankly I think many Smash fans find all these picks to be boring and ones they do not want.

Add in that the community is so set in their dumb ways that they refuse to acknowledge Waluigi or Isaac/Matthew and there leaves little room to seriously and enjoyably discuss and 1st party choices.

Yeah, I hate that too. There's a difference between not seeing an AT likely and massively gatekeeping things.

Who cares if they aren't likely. That doesn't mean they can't be fun to discuss. There's a ton of neat things they can bring to the table. It doesn't matter what their role is in that regard otherwise. Not everything is "chance to get in", honestly.

if it's someone like sandbag or tabuu that'd be cool, but not a completely original character

Those are completely original characters. Note my post above that explains that we have some OC's who are meant to be clearly retakes on existing characters, but also have many who are actually truly unique overall.

Albeit, Sandbag is kind of common enough to barely count as an OC, but it's not an actual character either in most cases. It's not a "species" in other games like Pokemon are in general either. But Sandbag in Smash is an OC.

So... I'm not sure why those would be an odd exception to the other normal OC's in Smash(nearly every boss, except Giant DK, Metal Mario, and Giga Bowser). Just wondering what your thought process is here.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Except I don't just have the "first parties aren't hype" thing to deal with. I also have people overly attached to side content acting like I'd be getting rid of something that has 9 million moves and is the very basis of Smash's coding by promoting an AT before Smash 6.

First parties and ATs have quite little correlation and lumping them together makes your argument more vague than necessary. Furthermore, I’d argue much more people are open to AT-upgrades than you might think. It’s mostly one or two people here that think upgrading one is the PR equivalent of kicking a puppy, but I’d say that more people would be fine with it than the Don Quichote attitude suggests.

It’s with individual cases that some characters have more going for them than others, and most ATs are in the same position that made them miss out on the roster in the first place than they were back when the initial roster was decided, and in the case of some, their popularity has dropped as their status as dead character didn’t improve.

 

[spicynun]

What does the Newcomer Thread think about an original Smash character being playable?

I personally wouldn't be a fan. Smash has always been about the crossover aspect to me. I know some other crossover games have original playable characters like Namco X Capcom but I usually don't really care about them.

 

[ForsakenM]

I would definitely be admitting that Isaac is one of the characters I wish to discuss if people would stop living in a fantasy world where an AT has more work put into it than a fighter.

Anyone who says that an AT has more work put in than a fighter is flat-out delusional. Of course the amount of effort various from AT to AT, but the fact remains that even the best looking AT pales in comparison to the effort put into character models and the fact that the amount of moves they can use absolutely pales in comparison is proof enough.

Isaac has like, what three...maybe four unique moves he can use? And they all use that weird hand spell, which is LITERALLY a single spell from Golden Sun that has been given creative freedom to do as much as it does in Smash and nowhere NEAR represents him or the series as much as say Hero does with Dragon Quest.

Yeah no, there is a huge difference.

It's not really anywhere near my priority list, just cause there are still so many characters and series from the outside I still want.

Like I said in my original post, this is exactly why it will never happen.

The list of characters is ever-growing and the desire of the Smashbase is a molten maw of an insatiable Gorgsh.

 

[Miles of SmashWiki]

What does the Newcomer Thread think about an original Smash character being playable?

more or less qualify. Miis are preexisting of course but the Smash interpretations of them are original and use the Smash series icon.

 

[Otoad64]

Those are completely original characters. Note my post above that explains that we have some OC's who are meant to be clearly retakes on existing characters, but also have many who are actually truly unique overall.

Albeit, Sandbag is kind of common enough to barely count as an OC, but it's not an actual character either in most cases. It's not a "species" in other games like Pokemon are in general either. But Sandbag in Smash is an OC.

So... I'm not sure why those would be an odd exception to the other normal OC's in Smash(nearly every boss, except Giant DK, Metal Mario, and Giga Bowser). Just wondering what your thought process is here.

no, I mean smash OCs that already exist.


I don't want them to make a character up from scratch

 

[Guynamednelson]

Anyone who says that an AT has more work put in than a fighter is flat-out delusional. Of course the amount of effort various from AT to AT, but the fact remains that even the best looking AT pales in comparison to the effort put into character models and the fact that the amount of moves they can use absolutely pales in comparison is proof enough.

It's kind of an exaggeration, but I do see some go "noooo don't throw away that hard work!" when a fighter would make that work on the AT look pathetic.

Isaac has like, what three...maybe four unique moves he can use? And they all use that weird hand spell, which is LITERALLY a single spell from Golden Sun that has been given creative freedom to do as much as it does in Smash and nowhere NEAR represents him or the series as much as say Hero does with Dragon Quest.

Even then I'd think they'd need to be reanimated, they'd be too OP as fighter moves. I imagine them getting reworked into his throws, with Catch being the grab.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I would definitely be admitting that Isaac is one of the characters I wish to discuss if people would stop living in a fantasy world where an AT has more work put into it than a fighter.

My, what a horrible take, surely an awful person said that, is this what they looked like?

It's ok, they can't hurt you anymore

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

no, I mean smash OCs that already exist.


I don't want them to make a character up from scratch

Ah, you just want an NPC playable instead that happens to be an OC. Gotcha~