Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Ivander]

I'm not familiar with SC at all, so I gotta ask:

Does Nightmare also get a buff while in said Stance change in SC?

No. It's mainly for moveset purposes. It doesn't effect stats.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Ironically what you're describing is Lora, the protagonist of the Xenoblade DLC campaign Torna.

Yeah, that does happen in Torna, but I'm using the XC2 cutscenes and special moves as my inspiration.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Are these a handful of moves or completely different movesets?

Despite how large some SC movesets are, it's rare that you'd need more than one hand to count the moves of each of Nightmare's individual stances.

Maybe one stance in VI, but aside from that, it's mostly pre-III Nightmare and only because there's a lot of repeats in the moveset.

So it'd really only change the jabs and tilts, leaving everything else untouched.

I'm not familiar with SC at all, so I gotta ask:

Does Nightmare also get a buff while in said Stance change in SC? And could he get some if that was implemented the same way in Smash? For reference, Cloud does get stat buffs while in Limit Break:

It's more like the Shulk Monado shenanigans, getting increases in some aspects at the costs of some others, and even then it's rarely drastic like what we'd see for Smash gimmicks.

For example, Night Behind boosts his mobility, but his range suffers for it. Though again, it's not a major change, but it's enough to be noticeable.

I'm not sure a stance changing character is too complex for a fighter if Steve had to redo every stage.

Regardless, I always saw Rex and Pyra as more of a "pass the sword" type character. A more flashy, team dependent Ice Climbers.

Basically this.

Not to mention that for every stage they had, they have to do even more work on Steve.

The ride never ends when it comes to the hell they have to go through with pixel man.

 

[7NATOR]

I'm not familiar with SC at all, so I gotta ask:

Does Nightmare also get a buff while in said Stance change in SC? And could he get some if that was implemented the same way in Smash? For reference, Cloud does get stat buffs while in Limit Break:



And likewise Sephiroth gets some insane stat buffs while in Winged:

View attachment 299886

Another example is 's Deep Breathing.

The stat buffs are not something most will notice because they're often kinda small (except for cases like Sephiroth's 30 % damage buff), but they're absolutely impactful - especially since those three cases are several small buffs rolled up into a package. If Nightmare would have similar buffs from the Stance change it would affect a lot.

Nightmare's Stances don't grant him a Stat boost to my knowledge, they just change the moves you can perform

Even the Power up Mechanic only grants extra properties to moves I believe, and it's usually one use only

EDIT: Nevermind, apprantly they do. though I don't know if it counts as a direct change to the stats, and more of a symptom of how Nightmare is standing and moving

I do hope though we see more Power up/Buffed forms/Transformations in this pass. They are fun to play around with and there are still interesting ways to Implement them

 

[JOJONumber691]

That seems to be at least partially because Sakurai was put off by Steve's complexity, until he finally caved in and went "FINE, I'm redoing every stage in the game." For someone like, for example, Crash or Shovel Knight, they would be a lot less complicated and therefore a lot less likely for Sakurai to keep putting off.

Activision would probably force an Echo. Yacht Club maybe, though I think Cadence is extremely tough competition to Shovel Knight, mostly thanks to the Music and being less gimmicky, or having overlap with Steve’s Mining with his Rivals Passive.

My post was more of an adendum to the part about Cadence of Hyrule's OST ownership, but in regards to this, I'd be willing to bet that Steve took 5 years because he's Steve since, while Microsoft is the only western 3rd party with a character, Super Smash Bros. does have quite a bit of western 3rd party content now, featuring content from Ubisoft, Bethesda, Toby Fox, Wayforward, Digital Extremes, etc. It may not be quite the same negotiation workload as a fighter, but I feel like if the barrier for western inclusion was that bad we wouldn't have most of the stuff we do in that regard.

True, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the Process of getting a Fighter is probably more difficult to a Western Developer due to the In-Depth Process, and the Approval Process. It’s complicated. Also imagine trying to balance Master Chief or Doomguy lol.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Even the Power up Mechanic only grants extra properties to moves I believe, and it's usually one use only

The stances are also one use only.

And I assume the "power up mechanic" is referring to Terror Charge?

 

[JOJONumber691]

I think a Stance Change Character would be surprisingly easy for the Smash Team. Hayabusa would be perfect for this, especially if Kasumi was an Alt. Euden has his Dragon, etc etc.

 

[Ivander]

For example, Night Behind boosts his mobility, but his range suffers for it. Though again, it's not a major change, but it's enough to be noticeable.

Is this a Soulcalibur thing from 6, 2 or 3? Cause in 5, the only thing Night Behind does aside from moveset changes is that you can only side-step or dash forward, but regular stance side-stepping is still faster and dashing doesn't seem any different speed-wise.

 

[MBRedboy31]

Just saying, but, isn’t Breegull Blaster a stance change? Nobody ever mentions it as such, even though it completely replaces Banjo’s moveset with a different (even if very minimal) moveset until you get hit or press shield to exit out of it.

 

[7NATOR]

The stances are also one use only.

And I assume the "power up mechanic" is referring to Terror Charge?

Yes, Terror Charge.

Also I haven't played Nightmare nor Soul Calibur in awhile, but couldn't you go from one of the stances to another stance if you hold the button

 

[SharkLord]

Activision would probably force an Echo. Yacht Club maybe, though I think Cadence is extremely tough competition to Shovel Knight, mostly thanks to the Music and being less gimmicky, or having overlap with Steve’s Mining with his Rivals Passive.

A standard retro-throwback platformer seems a lot less gimmicky than a rhythm-roguelike hybrid. Not that it matters, seeing as we have Steve %$#@ing Minecraft and he stage-rebooting frickery. Either way, I don't think Nintendo really cares about how gimmicky a character is.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

It's a take I never see, but it wouldn't surprise me if Rex and Pyra had a moveset built on Xenoblade 2's special recharge mechanic. Basically as they do attacks, a meter fills up and depending on how much that builds they could do up to a level 3 super move that then depletes and has to be built up again. Level 4 would probably be the final smash in this scenario.

Basically Cloud's limit combined with Wario's waft. Not what I would want Rex to do, but I could see it happening and haven't seen it mentioned.

 

[ahemtoday]

I know this is only vaguely related to one small point in the discussion here, but I could definitely see Shovel Knight being a simple character. Maybe even deliberately so - I mean, I'm convinced they made Banjo and Ridley have somewhat old-school-Smash movesets to match how long they've been requested. In a similar vein, Shovel Knight is a modern character designed to feel like he's existed forever, so why not make his Smash moveset feel like it's existed forever too?

 

[JOJONumber691]

A standard retro-throwback platformer seems a lot less gimmicky than a rhythm-roguelike hybrid. Not that it matters, seeing as we have Steve %$#@ing Minecraft and he stage-rebooting frickery. Either way, I don't think Nintendo really cares about how gimmicky a character is.

Crash, to say the least, has stiff competition from several angles. His own company’s Greed. Moveset Wise he and Rayman would be similar. Relations Wise Activision is not nearly as close to Nintendo as either Ubisoft and ESPECIALLY Koei Tecmo. His Fan Requests started to become a thing AFTER N-Sane Trilogy came to Switch in 2018, so around Three Years or so ago, not to mention Coco would also be something Activision would probably require if Crash got in. Also depending on CERO’s Mood Call of Duty is there. Also, Activision Blizzard owns Riot as well, meaning League is also an Option, which would be prioritized unless DFO got a Character. Yeah I can’t see Crash happening, at least not in this Pass. If we get a Third I could see it, but for now I simply can’t.

 

[7NATOR]

Just saying, but, isn’t Breegull Blaster a stance change? Nobody ever mentions it as such, even though it completely replaces Banjo’s moveset with a different (even if very minimal) moveset until you get hit or press shield to exit out of it.

Yes, yes it is actually

It's very minimal like you mention, but it makes Banjo act like a FPS Character kind of, and You can't play Breegull Blaster Banjo like Regular Banjo.

I'm going to guess people want a more substantial Stance switch character, since Banjo's doesn't change much

A standard retro-throwback platformer seems a lot less gimmicky than a rhythm-roguelike hybrid. Not that it matters, seeing as we have Steve %$#@ing Minecraft and he stage-rebooting frickery. Either way, I don't think Nintendo really cares about how gimmicky a character is.

Nintendo may not exactly care, But Sakurai would absolutely care, because if he isn't able to implement a character potentially because they don't have an accurate way to translate them or perhaps their gimmicks might not able to work at the moment, then that character won't be added at that point. Nintendo also is paying Sakurai as well, so they also need to know that whatever he's working with is able to be worked with

Now it's unknown what's too much for the devs to handle since we're not actually in the dev circle, and Steve was a high bar, but Steve also had many advantages to him as well, and it still took awhile for moveset conceptions and stuff like that to come to a full agreement

Regarding a Rhythm based Character, We know that Rhythm Heaven was probably planned for Smash 4 at somepoint. We also don't know what exactly they weren't in that game or in Ultimate, but I have to imagine that a rhythm based moveset is hard as heck to make, and I'm unsure if the candiates that could make use of this will be able to stack up against other candidates that perhaps more merit, while also being easier to translate to Smash

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I'm just gonna say it. If we are getting another Xenoblade character for Pass 2, its Rex or no one.

If you are expecting a XC1, XCX or Torna character, I feel you'll be disappointed.

Heck, I'm pretty doubtful about Rex at this point.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Heck, I'm pretty doubtful about Rex at this point.

This is where Elma wins.

 

[chocolatejr9]

This is where Elma wins.

He just said it's Rex or nobody. The joke doesn't work.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

This is where Elma wins.

Bruh.

I'm just gonna say it. If we are getting another Xenoblade character for Pass 2, its Rex or no one.

If you are expecting a XC1, XCX or Torna character, I feel you'll be disappointed.

Heck, I'm pretty doubtful about Rex at this point.

Reading a three sentence post is not that hard.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

He just said it's Rex or nobody. The joke doesn't work.

Ah poop...

 

[ChunkySlugger72]

Activision would probably force an Echo.

I hope we get Crash Bandicoot's sister (Coco) as an Echo/Alt or whatever the hell it would fall under seeing how they have identical movesets, But I would imagine the base/skeletal structure used for Crash Bandicoot would probably make things a kind of complicated.

It would be cool if the Smash team can make it happen.

Getting Crash Bandicoot would be the delicious "Whoa" of a cake and Coco would be the Wumpa fruit on top.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Yes, Terror Charge.

Also I haven't played Nightmare nor Soul Calibur in awhile, but couldn't you go from one of the stances to another stance if you hold the button

It depends on the game, the move and even the stance itself, but yes, in all cases it happens when you hold the button.

Every now and then, Nightmare can even have a move that allows him to keep his stance.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Getting Crash Bandicoot would be the delicious "Whoa" of a cake and Coco would be the Wumpa fruit on top.

... No, no, not gonna make that comparison. There are children here.

Anyway, yeah, Coco would at least get SOMETHING if Crash came.

 

[N3ON]

JOJONumber691
You're going to be continually let down if you keep viewing "ease of collaboration" as dealbreaker. At the most extremes, the likes of Disney and Sony, sure. But what about the previous six third-parties makes you think Nintendo opts for the simple acquisition? Two were from new companies, two were from Square, two were western (and from a competitor), all except Terry seemed to involve multiple parties when you consider the music/artwork.

At the point you have Sega, Capcom and Namco on board, you're set for third-parties for several titles. Those companies have a wealth to themselves. But Nintendo doesn't rest on its laurels and mine the same developers over and over as much as they reach out to new ones constantly. And that doesn't even touch on the big companies that have been involved only to the extent of supporting content. Nintendo is not afraid to play the field.

There's no good reason to consider a company like Activision off the table, even if no further western characters arrive this time.

Also, Activision-Blizzard doesn't own Riot. Tencent owns Riot.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

A reminder we should be getting our next event/tourney in 12 minutes to a little over an hour!

 

[cothero]

I'm just gonna say it. If we are getting another Xenoblade character for Pass 2, its Rex or no one.

If you are expecting a XC1, XCX or Torna character, I feel you'll be disappointed.

Heck, I'm pretty doubtful about Rex at this point.

Actually, Xeno X was better received amongst reviewers, while Xeno 2 received mostly favorable or mixed reviews.

Xenoblade Chronicles X - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Xenoblade Chronicles 2 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I've never played a Xeno game and never will, but add the Rex mii costume factor into the count and do the math.

HOWEVER, Xeno 2 is the best selling game in the Xeno franchise. Then again, the Rex mii costume factor still counts against his inclusion.

If i have to guess who would become a character between these two, i'll probably stick to Elma.

 

[SharkLord]

Crash, to say the least, has stiff competition from several angles. His own company’s Greed. Moveset Wise he and Rayman would be similar. Relations Wise Activision is not nearly as close to Nintendo as either Ubisoft and ESPECIALLY Koei Tecmo. His Fan Requests started to become a thing AFTER N-Sane Trilogy came to Switch in 2018, so around Three Years or so ago, not to mention Coco would also be something Activision would probably require if Crash got in. Also depending on CERO’s Mood Call of Duty is there. Also, Activision Blizzard owns Riot as well, meaning League is also an Option, which would be prioritized unless DFO got a Character. Yeah I can’t see Crash happening, at least not in this Pass. If we get a Third I could see it, but for now I simply can’t.

...That was in response to Shovel Knight, not Crash.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I mean

yeah Rex is the expected choice

but if there’s anything this pass has taught me it’s to expect the unexpected

who would have possibly expected Steve & Alex? Or Sephiroth? Or AN ARMS CHARACTER LET ALONE MIN MIN??

so yeah. Still hoping for Elma but overall expecting the unexpected

 

[Michael the Spikester]

I mean

yeah Rex is the expected choice

but if there’s anything this pass has taught me it’s to expect the unexpected

who would have possibly expected Steve & Alex? Or Sephiroth? Or AN ARMS CHARACTER LET ALONE MIN MIN??

so yeah. Still hoping for Elma but overall expecting the unexpected

Or Joker.

 

[chocolatejr9]

I mean

yeah Rex is the expected choice

but if there’s anything this pass has taught me it’s to expect the unexpected

who would have possibly expected Steve & Alex? Or Sephiroth? Or AN ARMS CHARACTER LET ALONE MIN MIN??

so yeah. Still hoping for Elma but overall expecting the unexpected

Counterpoint: this thread alone proves a bunch of people don't expect Rex.

 

[SneakyLink]

A reminder we should be getting our next event/tourney in 12 minutes to a little over an hour!

Very likely a tourney. We had 2 spirit events in a row

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Actually, Xeno X was better received amongst reviewers, while Xeno 2 received mostly favorable or mixed reviews.

Xenoblade Chronicles X - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Xenoblade Chronicles 2 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I've never played a Xeno game and never will, but add the Rex mii costume factor into the count and do the math.

HOWEVER, Xeno 2 is the best selling game in the Xeno franchise. Then again, the Rex mii costume factor still counts against his inclusion.

If i have to guess who would become a character between these two, i'll probably stick to Elma.

I think you're the first person to use reviews in an argument for a character.

And if we're going by that metric why are you even entertaining a XCX character when XC1 has much better reivews?

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I think you're the first person to use reviews in an argument for a character.

And if we're going by that metric why are you even entertaining a XCX character when XC1 has much better reivews?

Cause XC1 already has a rep and it’s doubtful we’ll get a second XC1 character?

 

[SharkLord]

If we're using reviews as a metric, we should take user scores into account. By that logic, Corey's looking pretty good.

 

[Truth the Ceomasterz33]

What Wrong? XenoBlade?

 

[Megadoomer]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

This week's event is a tournament between the characters with the highest running speed. So no Spirit massacre tonight, thankfully.

 

[7NATOR]

JOJONumber691
You're going to be continually let down if you keep viewing "ease of collaboration" as dealbreaker. At the most extremes, the likes of Disney and Sony, sure. But what about the previous six third-parties makes you think Nintendo opts for the simple acquisition? Two were from new companies, two were from Square, two were western (and from a competitor), all except Terry seemed to involve multiple parties when you consider the music/artwork.

At the point you have Sega, Capcom and Namco on board, you're set for third-parties for several titles. Those companies have a wealth to themselves. But Nintendo doesn't rest on its laurels and mine the same developers over and over as much as they reach out to new ones constantly. And that doesn't even touch on the big companies that have been involved only to the extent of supporting content. Nintendo is not afraid to play the field.

There's no good reason to consider a company like Activision off the table, even if no further western characters arrive this time.

Also, Activision-Blizzard doesn't own Riot. Tencent owns Riot.

I think Nintendo does reach out to new companies, but they probably do Mine each company of there resources, or potential characters

Like Perhaps a big logical reason why we don't get a TWO Characters from the same company in one DLC cycle (or Base game cycle) is perhaps so Nintendo has easier access to characters for potential future DLC or Future games. Nintendo is mining each company they work with like Sega, Square, and Microsoft for more characters so they already have some slots filled when they feel like doing new DLC or new game. Which is why if we did get FP3 or a new game, Master Chief might be looking good since there wasn't any rumors of negotiations failing with Chief unlike Sora

But going to new companies is also very good. The most Nintendo establishes connections with these companies, the more resources Nintendo has at their disposal to create Legendary rosters

I mean

yeah Rex is the expected choice

but if there’s anything this pass has taught me it’s to expect the unexpected

who would have possibly expected Steve & Alex? Or Sephiroth? Or AN ARMS CHARACTER LET ALONE MIN MIN??

so yeah. Still hoping for Elma but overall expecting the unexpected

Honestly, the only "Expected" characters in all of Ultimate DLC was Hero and Banjo, and Hero was only because of the leaks and such.

Also weird question, but does Elma happen to have a Self-Damaging mechanic, because I think I remember something about her having something like that

 

[SKX31]

It's more like the Shulk Monado shenanigans, getting increases in some aspects at the costs of some others, and even then it's rarely drastic like what we'd see for Smash gimmicks.

For example, Night Behind boosts his mobility, but his range suffers for it. Though again, it's not a major change, but it's enough to be noticeable.

That sounds like a viable trade-off. Was wondering because of the Cloud comparision. Thanks!

Just saying, but, isn’t Breegull Blaster a stance change? Nobody ever mentions it as such, even though it completely replaces Banjo’s moveset with a different (even if very minimal) moveset until you get hit or press shield to exit out of it.

Nobody really mentions it (outside of pro contexts, AFAIK) because the stance change is a really minor one on the surface. Even if it changes how the Eggs' knockback behave: In normal mode the eggs cause a little flinching, in Breegull Blaster the eggs knock the opponent a bit vertically upwards (up close, farther away it's the same flinching). The normal eggs are mostly used to keep the opponent(s) at bay and second guessing. Breegull Blaster can set up for a lot of combos / frame traps, for example:

Blaster -> Jump and Blaster in Mid Air -> Double Jump Nair.

But it can be tricky to pull off since those follow ups have rather exact timings and a couple moves like Up Air can be inconsistent.

If we're using reviews as a metric, we should take user scores into account. By that logic, Corey's looking pretty good.
View attachment 299892
View attachment 299893
View attachment 299894
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Can't believe that KH hasn't had a Cory world yet, it's the best anime ever for a reason.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Cause XC1 already has a rep and it’s doubtful we’ll get a second XC1 character?

But the reviews, Rie!

They're so important! Especially for games that came out ages ago!

...

I really don't like this line of logic. We got an Other M stage for crying out loud.

Reviews don't matter much, if at all. Success does. Sales do. History does.

But reviews? Nah that's a bruh moment.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I think Nintendo does reach out to new companies, but they probably do Mine each company of there resources, or potential characters

Like Perhaps a big logical reason why we don't get a TWO Characters from the same company in one DLC cycle (or Base game cycle) is perhaps so Nintendo has easier access to characters for potential future DLC or Future games. Nintendo is mining each company they work with like Sega, Square, and Microsoft for more characters so they already have some slots filled when they feel like doing new DLC or new game. Which is why if we did get FP3 or a new game, Master Chief might be looking good since there wasn't any rumors of negotiations failing with Chief unlike Sora

But going to new companies is also very good. The most Nintendo establishes connections with these companies, the more resources Nintendo has at their disposal to create Legendary rosters



Honestly, the only "Expected" characters in all of Ultimate DLC was Hero and Banjo, and Hero was only because of the leaks and such.

Also weird question, but does Elma happen to have a Self-Damaging mechanic, because I think I remember something about her having something like that

Not necessarily but she does have Overdrive which happens when you reach at least 3000 TP, accumulated by taking and receiving damage and certain arts