Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[SharkLord]

The question I have is what counts as a Gunner Character? Joker uses a Gun, but he's not really considered a Gunner character is he. Hero and Banjo also have alot of Zoning capabilities with Projectiles but they aren't considered Gunner characters

I'm going to assuming a Gunner character is when the character has more projectiles than normal, perhaps Projectile Normals, or just more focus on their projectile moves. Reimu would definitely fit, and KOS-MOS could fit also, along with a FPS Character. I'm a little unsure on Elma because she also has that focus on TWO Swords. she could do both technically, so she probably fits, but what's your definition?

Yeah, I'd imagine a "gunner" would be a largely projectile-focused character. It seems like the definitions are kinda fluid; Steve is classified as a brawler due to his close-range nature despite using weapons, and Byleth is classified as a swordie due to their disjoints, despite only using the actual sword in sword form for like five moves. I'd imagine Reimu would end up fitting under the gunner archetype, despite not having any sort of firearm on her person.

 

[Otoad64]

The question I have is what counts as a Gunner Character? Joker uses a Gun, but he's not really considered a Gunner character is he. Hero and Banjo also have alot of Zoning capabilities with Projectiles but they aren't considered Gunner characters

I'm going to assuming a Gunner character is when the character has more projectiles than normal, perhaps Projectile Normals, or just more focus on their projectile moves. Reimu would definitely fit, and KOS-MOS could fit also, along with a FPS Character. I'm a little unsure on Elma because she also has that focus on TWO Swords. she could do both technically, so she probably fits, but what's your definition?




EA Makes good games

like what? I mean most of their games are glitchy microtransaction and lootbox riddled messes

 

[cothero]

Ok, I just edited this post because I think Profile Theory is true. Eggman, Paper Mario, Geno, Waluigi, Chun Li, etc all have pfps. Pyra and Mythra do as well. But no Rex. Strange, isn’t it?

Jesus Christ. First "M & S" theory and now this? What's this Profile Theory even about?

 

[Rie Sonomura]

The question I have is what counts as a Gunner Character? Joker uses a Gun, but he's not really considered a Gunner character is he. Hero and Banjo also have alot of Zoning capabilities with Projectiles but they aren't considered Gunner characters

I'm going to assuming a Gunner character is when the character has more projectiles than normal, perhaps Projectile Normals, or just more focus on their projectile moves. Reimu would definitely fit, and KOS-MOS could fit also, along with a FPS Character. I'm a little unsure on Elma because she also has that focus on TWO Swords. she could do both technically, so she probably fits, but what's your definition?




EA Makes good games

Reimu technically uses magic to generate bullets so she’s technically not a gunner. Elma would be that perfect swordie-gunner hybrid and a dual wielder to boot. KOS-MOS is mostly gunner with some sword moves I guess

also

EA makes good games

the Sims, yes. Everything else... not so much

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Jesus Christ. First "M & S" theory and now this? What's this Profile Theory even about?

Clearly it means those with the best facial profile are getting in next.

Phoenix Wright and Dante will of course be neck and neck in that category.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I’m just saying tho

she lacks a profile icon too...

 

[cashregister9]

nintendo is not ea 2, at least nintendo makes good games.

if anything activision minus crash/spyro is ea 2

On the EA front we have Battlefront 2, Jedi Fallen Order, Titanfall 2 and the Sims are all fantastic games

On the Activision front we have all of the Blizzard franchises that are all consistently high quality and then a lot of the newer Call Of Duty games are quite fun

Yes I know what the OP was trying to say, I'm just poking some fun this post is not intended to be serious, Sorry if the reaction image was a bit too rude

 

[JOJONumber691]

Only five gunners we have are & . I think we could benefit greatly from another Gun Character Moveset-Wise, but I don't see it happening unless it's DFO or whoever the 2021 Character is. Mostly because most candidates are Western, and I can't see another Western Character after Steve unless it's Cadence, mostly because of the Lack of Music Licensing (OOPS! ALL ZELDA MUSIC!), Uniqueness, Indie Status with HUGE Nintendo Relevance, and Cadence of Hyrule.

 

[7NATOR]

Jesus Christ. First "M & S" theory and now this? What's this Profile Theory even about?

If you go into one of the Online menu's, you have the option of changing your profile to specific characters. Characters that have profile pics usually are Playable characters, Assists, Bosses, and some of the spirit characters

Rex doesn't have one, despite being a Spirit and mii costume, so people assume they saving his pic for when they make him playable I assume. Though they made Pyra and Mythera pics as well, so I don't know

like what? I mean most of their games are glitchy microtransaction and lootbox riddled messes

People still love the games though. Games like Fifa, The Sims, and Apex Legends, which is a sub-series of the loved Titanfall games. Plus there's games like Jedi: Fallen order that don't really have microtransactions

Yeah, I'd imagine a "gunner" would be a largely projectile-focused character. It seems like the definitions are kinda fluid; Steve is classified as a brawler due to his close-range nature despite using weapons, and Byleth is classified as a swordie due to their disjoints, despite only using the actual sword in sword form for like five moves. I'd imagine Reimu would end up fitting under the gunner archetype, despite not having any sort of firearm on her person.

Yeah that's what I'm kinda figuring, though I don't know about Steve being a Brawler. It kind of makes sense i guess, but Steve is a very weird character that I personally find it hard to really classify him

Anyway, We still haven't gotten a Projectile based tourney, despite having gotten a No Projectile based Tourney shortly before Steve was revealed. However I will have to say that Steve's tourney did have alot of projectile users, But I'm not sure on all of them

The thing I will say is that if we get a Projectile based tourney, it probably would be characters that have more than One projectile, perhaps more Projectile specials or Projectile normals even

 

[SharkLord]

Only five gunners we have are & . I think we could benefit greatly from another Gun Character Moveset-Wise, but I don't see it happening unless it's DFO or whoever the 2021 Character is. Mostly because most candidates are Western, and I can't see another Western Character after Steve unless it's Cadence, mostly because of the Lack of Music Licensing (OOPS! ALL ZELDA MUSIC!), and Cadence of Hyrule.

Bayo's more of a brawler. Her neutral special's the only gun move that's not an extension of a punch or a kick; She doesn't use projectiles extensively.

 

[cothero]

Clearly it means those with the best facial profile are getting in next.

Phoenix Wright and Dante will of course be neck and neck in that category.

They're in.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Only five gunners we have are & . I think we could benefit greatly from another Gun Character Moveset-Wise, but I don't see it happening unless it's DFO or whoever the 2021 Character is. Mostly because most candidates are Western, and I can't see another Western Character after Steve unless it's Cadence, mostly because of the Lack of Music Licensing (OOPS! ALL ZELDA MUSIC!), Uniqueness, Indie Staus with HUGE Nintendo Relevance, and Cadence of Hyrule.

Gunner character eh?

Well, there is a rather famous 90s figure who utilized a shooting mechanic that might just fit in Smash. Someone who's been on a Nintendo console perhaps? A character that also carved a fairly respectful PC legacy? Maybe even one owned by Bethesda, and more specifically Id Software? A fighter that most would probably agree has stood out so much for their exciting adventures on Mars? I think we all know who I'm talking about...

Spoiler

 

[Paraster]

Yeah, I'd imagine a "gunner" would be a largely projectile-focused character. It seems like the definitions are kinda fluid; Steve is classified as a brawler due to his close-range nature despite using weapons, and Byleth is classified as a swordie due to their disjoints, despite only using the actual sword in sword form for like five moves. I'd imagine Reimu would end up fitting under the gunner archetype, despite not having any sort of firearm on her person.

I mentioned Quote earlier, and he would absolutely be a gunner is both gameplay and aesthetics. He wields nine weapons, eight of which are guns or some other kind of ordnance. Even the sword he wields is used as a throwing weapon in Cave Story (though he did use it as a melee weapon in Blade Strangers). I've seen multiple prospective Quote movesets where he uses the Polar Star in his normals like Mega Man's Mega Buster.

 

[JOJONumber691]

Bayo's more of a brawler. Her neutral special's the only gun move that's not an extension of a punch or a kick; She doesn't use projectiles extensively.

Bruh Bayo has an entire Gimmick dedicated to her Guns, where she can hold her Normals and Aerials out longer while shooting her Bullets, which considering the Nature of her Kit, is definitely a Gun Character. I mean if they have to be Pure Zoners, the we can immediately disqualify Mii Gunner for more being a Grappler Heavy Weight than anything else, since the Gun just acts as different moves as well.

 

[Otoad64]

People still love the games though. Games like Fifa, The Sims, and Apex Legends, which is a sub-series of the loved Titanfall games. Plus there's games like Jedi: Fallen order that don't really have microtransactions

fair enough, i've never cared for any of those though and the aformentioned microtransactions and loot boxes don't make me want to support any of them.

I guess I just have a lot of hatred for ea in general though.

 

[SharkLord]

Bruh Bayo has an entire Gimmick dedicated to her Guns, where she can hold her Normals and Aerials out longer while shooting her Bullets, which considering the Nature of her Kit, is definitely a Gun Character. I mean if they have to be Pure Zoners, the we can immediately disqualify Mii Gunner for more being a Grappler Heavy Weight than anything else, since the Gun just acts as different moves as well.

They're still supplements to the brawling. If she were a straight gunner she'd be firing those guns immediately instead of just punching, then firing them.

 

[Fluttershy64]

Only five gunners we have are & . I think we could benefit greatly from another Gun Character Moveset-Wise, but I don't see it happening unless it's DFO or whoever the 2021 Character is. Mostly because most candidates are Western, and I can't see another Western Character after Steve unless it's Cadence, mostly because of the Lack of Music Licensing (OOPS! ALL ZELDA MUSIC!), Uniqueness, Indie Status with HUGE Nintendo Relevance, and Cadence of Hyrule.

Wow, I didn't realize that we only had 5 gun fighters.

 

[Firox]

The question I have is what counts as a Gunner Character? Joker uses a Gun, but he's not really considered a Gunner character is he. Hero and Banjo also have alot of Zoning capabilities with Projectiles but they aren't considered Gunner characters

I'm going to assuming a Gunner character is when the character has more projectiles than normal, perhaps Projectile Normals, or just more focus on their projectile moves. Reimu would definitely fit, and KOS-MOS could fit also, along with a FPS Character. I'm a little unsure on Elma because she also has that focus on TWO Swords. she could do both technically, so she probably fits, but what's your definition?

A very good question and I would say your assumptions are very much aligned with what I had in mind. I would agree that Joker, Hero and Banjo are not gunners in an archetype sense, but do possess some zoning options. I would also agree that a gunner-type character would be constituted by one that:

-Possesses at least two or more projectile specials and/or smash attacks that are key to their playstyle
-Possesses projectile normals a la Megaman (lemons, Up Air, Dair, F Smash) and Mii Gunner (Fair, Up air, F smash)

Stereotypical gunners on the current roster include, but is not necessarily limited to: and maybe . If Geno had actually made it into Smash, he would have fit perfectly into this category as well. Honorable mention to , but since her playstyle is more air combo oriented and her guns do very minor supplementary damage, I don't really consider her a gunner but I can see why some people might think so because of her neutral B.

Granted, these aren't rigid requirements or intended to be fan rules of any kind, but more of the typical description of the gunner archetype. I understand that the lines can be blurred and some characters can fall into multiple categories, but it is interesting to note that the stereotypical gunner archetype is the least represented of any other fighter type, though zoners in general are fairly common. Again, to your point, KOS-MOS, Doomslayer, Master Chief and pretty much any FPS character would fit this description fairly easily. As for Elma, that would greatly depend on how Sakurai would choose to represent her since the fighting style of XBCX characters can be pretty fluid.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

A very good question and I would say your assumptions are very much aligned with what I had in mind. I would agree that Joker, Hero and Banjo are not gunners in an archetype sense, but do possess some zoning options. I would also agree that a gunner-type character would be constituted by one that:

-Possesses at least two or more projectile specials and/or smash attacks that are key to their playstyle
-Possesses projectile normals a la Megaman (lemons, Up Air, Dair, F Smash) and Mii Gunner (Fair, Up air, F smash)

Stereotypical gunners on the current roster include, but is not necessarily limited to: and maybe . If Geno had actually made it into Smash, he would have fit perfectly into this category as well.

Granted, these aren't rigid requirements or intended to be fan rules of any kind, but more of the typical description of the gunner archetype. I understand that the lines can be blurred and some characters can fall into multiple categories, but it is interesting to note that the stereotypical gunner archetype is the least represented of any other fighter type, though zoners in general are fairly common. Again, to your point, KOS-MOS, Doomslayer, Master Chief and pretty much any FPS character would fit this description fairly easily. As for Elma, that would greatly depend on how Sakurai would choose to represent her since the fighting style of XBCX characters can be pretty fluid.

Hnnnnng that’s what I loved about X, how fluid the combat is. Just imagine it in Smash

 

[N3ON]

Only five gunners we have are & . I think we could benefit greatly from another Gun Character Moveset-Wise, but I don't see it happening unless it's DFO or whoever the 2021 Character is. Mostly because most candidates are Western, and I can't see another Western Character after Steve unless it's Cadence, mostly because of the Lack of Music Licensing (OOPS! ALL ZELDA MUSIC!), Uniqueness, Indie Status with HUGE Nintendo Relevance, and Cadence of Hyrule.

That's a very strange reason not to expect more western characters. The reason Steve's music was a licensing challenge isn't going to apply to most of the plausible western candidates, where the soundtrack, unless it uses licensed material, is owned in-house.

Also Cadence would obviously also come with Crypt of the Necrodancer music. That's her actual game.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I believe EA also makes the Civilization games. EDIT: I have been informed that this is not the case.

Also, I believe the gunner as a gameplay archetype mostly just consists of Samus and Mii Gunner. Perhaps a few other characters might be added there if there are any you think play like them, but I wouldn't say that Mega Man and Bayonetta do since Bayonetta belongs more to the brawler archetype, and Mega Man is kind of his own thing.

As for characters that have a focus on guns with their ability set, the aforementioned characters, and Zero Suit Samus (kind of) would fit under that motif.

 

[SKX31]

I believe EA also makes the Civilization games.

That's actually 2K, with Firaxis being the Civ games' developers since IV at least.

Bruh Bayo has an entire Gimmick dedicated to her Guns, where she can hold her Normals and Aerials out longer while shooting her Bullets, which considering the Nature of her Kit, is definitely a Gun Character. I mean if they have to be Pure Zoners, the we can immediately disqualify Mii Gunner for more being a Grappler Heavy Weight than anything else, since the Gun just acts as different moves as well.

Besides what SharkLord is saying:

The overwhelming amount of Bayo's damage output and kill moves are up close. Sure, she's not her Smash 4 self, but a Bayo that has learned her bread and butter combos will do 40+ % per opening regularily. The guns arguably break that flow since she has to stop her combo game to shoot. Same goes for her kill confirms - outside of her Smashes, her most common finisher is B-Air (which is a kick).

The most use the guns get is whenever someone else is offstage, diagonally above Bayo. Then the guns can in some situations stop double jumps / Up Bs.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

That's a very strange reason not to expect more western characters. The reason Steve's music was a licensing challenge isn't going to apply to most of the plausible western candidates, where the soundtrack, unless it uses licensed material, is owned in-house.

Also Cadence would obviously also come with Crypt of the Necrodancer music. That's her actual game.

Also, Cadence of Hyrule has multiple 3rd party composers, so they may not actually own the specific renditions in the Cadence of Hyrule OST.

In which case, she might only come with Crypt of the Necrodancer music because from what I know, Crypt of the Necrodancer and Cadence of Hyrule have different composers.
EDIT: After looking it up, this seems to not be the case. Not sure where I heard that then.
EDIT EDIT: The composer for Cadence of Hyrule is still probably not in-house, so the first statement still applies.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Still not nearly as ambitious as you made it sound, since stances wouldn't be like "making a whole new character" since most of the setup needed to animate moves is already done.

Completely disagree. The fact that you think that the skin that wraps around the skeleton is "most" of the work, and ALL of the animations that skeleton is going to make and all of the frame data associated with those animations isn't, is completely backwards.

There's a REASON why character skins in games are synonymous with cheap, easy DLC. It's because that's actually the simplest part of making a character.

 

[JustPlainDan]

They're in.

View attachment 299850

Don’t do that, don’t give me hope.

 

[7NATOR]

Completely disagree. The fact that you think that the skin that wraps around the skeleton is "most" of the work, and ALL of the animations that skeleton is going to make and all of the frame data associated with those animations isn't, is completely backwards.

There's a REASON why character skins in games are synonymous with cheap, easy DLC. It's because that's actually the simplest part of making a character.

I'm kind of confused by this conversation

But I think he's not saying making the New model is most of the work. I think he knows that animating is the hard part, along with everything else related to that animation.

But I think he's right in saying that a Stance character isn't making a Completely different character. With making a new character, you got to conceptualize everything beforehand, Make a new model, add rigging, and stuff like that

With a Stance character, you already do have the Rig and Model at the ready, and they Devs (should) have the concepts of what moves to add with the stance switch and how to balance it. Animating and putting in all the properties and frame data will take awhile, and I do think making skins is easier than adding new moves, especially the amount a Stance switch might entail, but I think it's easier than making a whole new character

I do think though that Animating more moves than usual probably takes alot of work and balancing, and probably is a harder job than Making Daisy for example, since Daisy mostly uses the same animations as Peach and is only balanced against her

 

[ChunkySlugger72]

This is how Rayman will still win.

If were gonna get one more platforming mascot, It's very likely gonna come down to Rayman or Crash Bandicoot, Both would be even better, But I doubt we'll get 2 platforming mascots with only 3 spots left to go.

I just find it weird to believe that Banjo-Kazooie would be the only platforming mascot in both fighter passes.

I used to flip flop on both Crash and Rayman, But Crash Bandicoot just has a lot more going for him right now. Rayman for me is starting to fade away only because you would think we would of gotten him by now seeing how Ubisoft seems very cooperative and has already provided a 3D model back in Smash 4 and not to mention Ultimate's already got Ubisoft side content.

I respect Rayman and would be cool if he made it in, But I'll still take Crash Bandicoot anyday of the week.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I'm kind of confused by this conversation

The point I was making was that giving a character a stance(of the kind that completely changes their moveset), is like creating and entirely new set of animations and frame data etc. To the point where adding a character with multiple stances might as well be costing you a character slot.

His argument to that is that "Nah, it's reusing most of the assets. It's like an Echo fighter."

And my argument to THAT is "No, the assets an Echo fighter reuses are all the parts that actually take a lot of work to develop. Creating a new stance reuses the easy parts(the character skin basically), while redoing all of the HARD parts of making a character."

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I'm kind of confused by this conversation

But I think he's not saying making the New model is most of the work. I think he knows that animating is the hard part, along with everything else related to that animation.

But I think he's right in saying that a Stance character isn't making a Completely different character. With making a new character, you got to conceptualize everything beforehand, Make a new model, add rigging, and stuff like that

With a Stance character, you already do have the Rig and Model at the ready, and they Devs (should) have the concepts of what moves to add with the stance switch and how to balance it. Animating and putting in all the properties and frame data will take awhile, and I do think making skins is easier than adding new moves, especially the amount a Stance switch might entail, but I think it's easier than making a whole new character

I do think though that Animating more moves than usual probably takes alot of work and balancing, and probably is a harder job than Making Daisy for example, since Daisy mostly uses the same animations as Peach and is only balanced against her

The thing is that it depends on how the stance works. If the stance changes your entire moveset, then it's effectively a character switch. If the stance changes the properties of your moveset without swapping out moves, then it's not a new moveset, and therefore doesn't count as multiple characters. If the stance allows you to do a specific move or cancel into something else, then it's really not a multiple character situation.

 

[7NATOR]

The point I was making was that giving a character a stance(of the kind that completely changes their moveset), is like creating and entirely new set of animations and frame data etc. To the point where adding a character with multiple stances might as well be costing you a character slot.

His argument to that is that "Nah, it's reusing most of the assets. It's like an Echo fighter."

And my argument to THAT is "No, the assets an Echo fighter reuses are all the parts that actually take a lot of work to develop. Creating a new stance reuses the easy parts(the character skin basically), while redoing all of the HARD parts of making a character."

If that's how it went down, then I do agree with you on this one

The thing is that it depends on how the stance works. If the stance changes your entire moveset, then it's effectively a character switch. If the stance changes the properties of your moveset without swapping out moves, then it's not a new moveset, and therefore doesn't count as multiple characters. If the stance allows you to do a specific move or cancel into something else, then it's really not a multiple character situation.

Oh yeah, it depends on what type of Stance Switch it is

If it's one that completely changes the entire moveset, than yeah that would eat away alot of time. That effort I would say would probably be worth the effort of around 5 Echoes or more, and perhaps around the effort of a New character, but less so at the same time, since that Stance switch has to be balanced against the rest of the cast, each move has their own properties and frame data, along with all the animation. It also has to be balanced against the Regular moveset of the character so the Stance switch moveset isn't completely overshadowed. The only upside is that the concepts for the character should be complete, and you still have the rig and Model to re-use

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

I was about to say "man, the animal crossing update videos sure is taking a long time" but then I remember some prefectures of Japan went under state of emergency

 

[DarthEnderX]

The thing is that it depends on how the stance works. If the stance changes your entire moveset, then it's effectively a character switch. If the stance changes the properties of your moveset without swapping out moves, then it's not a new moveset, and therefore doesn't count as multiple characters.

Very true.

Since the original inspiration for this topic was Nightmare. So the question is, in SC, do Nightmare's stance changes completely change his moves, or do they just change the properties of his moves?

 

[7NATOR]

Okay, So I've been meaning to ask this since I had gotten into an arguement about it in Papageno's Discord days ago

So in Papageno's Discord, Forest Maze, Someone said that Shadow would only be good as a Base game character, and I disagreed because I said Shadow is about as Iconic (or more) than Sephiroth, who we just got, and let's just say that apparently I had an unpopular opinion in there, as not only most of the people there massively disagreed, but some even thought I was trolling or out of my mind, when I think it's a valid arguement.

So the question I ask is

Who's More Iconic, Shadow the Hedgehog or Sephiroth? and by how much?

Very true.

Since the original inspiration for this topic was Nightmare. So the question is, in SC, do Nightmare's stance changes completely change his moves, or do they just change the properties of his moves?

Nightmare stances do give him Completely different moves, and he has multiple of these stances. It's also worth keeping in mind that the Amount of moves a SC character has is comparable to Tekken (though I don't believe as much).

He also has a power up move that gives his moves stronger properties

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Who's More Iconic, Shadow the Hedgehog or Sephiroth? and by how much?

Sephiroth is more iconic due to the cultural impact he and FF7 had in the world of gaming.

 

[Otoad64]

Who's More Iconic, Shadow the Hedgehog or Sephiroth? and by how much?

depends on the generation.


the younger the generation the more the answer becomes shadow


for me it's shadow by an extremely large margin but I didn't know who cloud was before he got into smash so i'm probably wrong.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Shadow might be more well known due to the sheer amount of younger fans that have encountered elements from the Sonic series all over the world, but Sephiroth has the edge in being a more significant figure because of his association with such a genre shifting game like FFVII.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

Who's More Iconic, Shadow the Hedgehog or Sephiroth? and by how much?

Tbh, to me, Sephiroth by a large margin

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

Who's More Iconic, Shadow the Hedgehog or Sephiroth? and by how much?

Saying something is iconic is a bit of a bombshell, as it can have a lot of different interpretations. If you go for an importance angle, then Sephiroth wins hands-down. If you go for recognizability, I would actually give it to Shadow. If you go for media related to the character and not the character himself, I think it could go either way.

I would 100% expect somebody's mom to know Shadow before Sephiroth, but I think Sephiroth has a larger place in history and probably has the most instantly recognizable music.

 

[cothero]

Don’t do that, don’t give me hope.

Your avatar fits your comment perfectly. LOL

 

[JamesDNaux]

But I doubt we'll get 2 platforming mascots with only 3 spots left to go.

I don't see why we can't have two platforming characters when 90% of all Smash DLC is 'RPG character'