Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Momotsuki]

Remember how Ultimate wasn't gonna have many newcomers? Pepperidge Farm remembers.
Granted, the base game didn't but it's still funny to think about in retrospect.

 

[MarioRaccoon]

Unstackers will never know the euphoria of having the roster fit in a perfect rectangle:
View attachment 334844

Issue is of course the multiplayer roster is unstacked regardless.

Good reason why Ultimate DX needs 12 new fighter as it would fill another row lol

 

[GilTheGreat19]

Sora’s so much fun to play it’s a crime what in the world bro
Also hello y’all. It’s been a bit lol how’s everyone

 

[Momotsuki]

Unstacking? Perfect rectangle? Modding is pretty neat. Once we can add files and thus give Giga Bowser a CSS icon, it'll look downright perfect~

Spoiler: Large screenshot

 

[SKX31]

Is Maint

Nintendo Support: Super Smash Bros. Ultimate Update Ver. 13.0.0 - Fighter Adjustments

en-americas-support.nintendo.com

Here

The patch looks like Low / Mid Tier Buff city.

(Now we'll simply have to see how significant those changes are, but still I'm posting this since some changes will trip people up. I'm posting this in detail because of that - there are some potentially nasty changes here):

got the buffs Momotsuki mentioned here. D-Air's gone from Frame 16 to 14. Might give him some more confirms, especially D-Air that's hit on grounded opponents and the fact that N-Air / U-Air lasts longer helps his fundamentals. Grounded Doc Tornado gains its armor almost instantly now - aerial Doc Tornado does not have the armor that grounded one has though, so the impact might be limited. Overall though, those changes do help him out.
might be one of the biggest winners here since it got major Jab / B-Air endlag buffs and D-Throw appears to be more of a combo throw. Jab is a lot safer and has more follow ups at low %. B-Air now can threaten follow ups at low % and... one can now Short hop B-air a shield and either directional air dodge for safety or Rest their response. Oh boy. Also as a result, Puff got a Jab -> B-Air combo at high % now.

And... D-Throw -> Rest looks kinda viable (sure, a big target like DK, but still):

If nothing else people will have to respect D-Throw now because if Puff jumps after... they have to react or possibly get comboed / rested.

got knockback buffs on U-Smash and D-Smash (+ a sweetspot buff on D-Smash), sweetspot buff on D-Air and Jab damage / slight lag reduction. Seems to be some really consequential stuff, now Jab 1 -> D-Smash is an actual combo at a lot of %s, and Jab 1 can now threaten Lightning Kick or Grab as well. Also, Rapid Jab / Flurry gained a significant boost as a result. The QoL buff on D-Air veers into significant territory too. This patch helped her out a lot it seems.
got F-Tilt knockback buff, D-Tilt comes out faster (Down from Frame 9 to Frame 7) - meaning it can be spammed more and mitigate pressure better - and dash attack's sweetspot is now just a little easier to hit with. Maybe not huge, but helpful.
got consistency fixes to D-Smash and Side B - making sure Luma appears in front for both. Helpful since previously Luma had trouble following it seems.
's down angled F-Smash almost insta-breaks shield now uncharged, and when combined with D-Tilt beforehand will. This change will trip a lot of people up, I can tell you that.

Straight Lunge (B) got a lot of changes: knockback increase, lag reduction, increased speed and the ability to buffer the punch - meaning the armoring is improved too - while Up B got a knockback buff and Down B has a stronger damage multiplier (from 1.3X to 1.5X). In particular D-Tilt -> Up B appears to be a legimitate kill confirm again. Oh and Up Tilt apparently got a hitstun buff allowing it to combo into lots of stuff (it true comboes into Jab, itself, KO Punch, or Up B).

Chances are that these buffs have a medium-to-major impact actually and Mac winds up one of the big beneficiaries.

got a really slight buff to Side B (edit: ****, I misread this entirely initially) : when ridley grabs someone in side b the bump into the ground is a bit faster (thanks Wunderwaft for pointing this out). Okay, this is very small, but might help in edge cases.
got buffs to Up Tilt's damage and knockback, F-Smash's hit detection and range early on, lag reduction on F-Air and knockback buff on U-Throw. Not huge buffs it seems, but still welcome for him.
got reduced lag on D-Tilt, her F-Smash and F-Throw got a QoL knockback fix and small knockback / notable range buff on D-Smash. The latter is decently impactful since her already potent Jab does confirm into lots of stuff like D-Tilt and D-Smash (especially when shielded - she can shieldbreak surprisingly consistently). Does help her quite a bit, but we'll have to see how much.
got damage and knockback buffs on D-Smash, as well damage buff on U-Air and Up B. Not too sure if it'll help the cat much, but their intent is nevertheless clear.

I could wind up wrong and some changes turn out bigger / smaller, but this is the impression I'm getting.

No nerfs it looks like. Huh.

No buffs to , , or feels really weird. They're probably afraid to buff Ganon more since he does presumably well at casual levels (please buff or rework him). The latter three though would probably appriciate some. Same goes for and - both of which could use some hitbox / frame data adjustments.

Okay, so Sora stuff:

• Sora's Counter not only beats most Up Bs, it also beats Wonderwing and Buster Wolf entirely. It also hits under the ledge, making Counterattack even more dangerous.
• Aerial Sweep (Up B) kills pretty early, we're looking at around 90% near the upper blast zone. An instant double jump Up Air can confirm into it.
• Sluggish start up might be a problem in CQC situations, but can be overcome with some patience. Same with the out of shield situations.
• D-Tilt is quick but has deceptively short range. Does threaten U-Tilt / U-Smash followups though. If one has good timing one can combo tapped F-Air -> D-Tilt -> U-Tilt (or even Up Smash) for starters.
• While Sonic Blade (Side B) will be really difficult and unsafe as an approach option, it can be difficult to catch sometimes and looks decent as a aerial mixup.
• Even though Sora can recover and edgeguard from any position, he'll have to watch out for ledgetrap / 2 frame scenarios due to his low weight.
• Combo potential looks really good, here's a Sora combo vid that shows everything from basic to really advanced stuff. I'm pretty sure that Soras that have practiced will look like KH2's zany aerial combat soon enough. One can even wobble in the air by using N-Air 1 / 2 and get like 30+ %. WTF.

All in all, my early bet is that a lot of people are going to keep playing him for months or years to come simply because he's fun for a lot of people - regardless of how effective he turns out.

Sora’s so much fun to play it’s a crime what in the world bro
Also hello y’all. It’s been a bit lol how’s everyone

Feeling really optimistic about Ultimate's future, what with Sora being really fun and a number of minor-to-relevant buffs to a number of characters. I don't wanna go full optimistic just in case, but still.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

So glad finally got his buff buffet! As a formermain I cannot wait to pick him back up again.

Disappointed did not get buffs to Wonderwing. I was really hoping for less cool down at the end of the move to make it more viable, I would even accept less knock back as a trade off.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

I love how they dont touch anything on Villager on each patch. Keeping my character pure

 

[Evil Trapezium]

Hero getting left behind because he's the only one who doesn't know how to glide.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

Sora classic end picture is the KH3 title screen

 

[Evil Trapezium]

Finally, here's a picture of Mario with Banjo & Kazooie and Sora. Two characters inspired by Super Mario 64.

 

[Paraster]

Here is the Character Select Screen from World of Light with only the required characters and DLC characters.

View attachment 334862

I wonder how a game with a roster consisting only of the required WoL characters would be received.

Obviously it'd be considered slim by modern Smash standards, but what if it was the first game?

 

[Sigran101]

Unstackers will never know the euphoria of having the roster fit in a perfect rectangle:
View attachment 334844

Issue is of course the multiplayer roster is unstacked regardless.

Just remove the miis and voila. Perfect rectangle with no stacking. That's what I did.

 

[BlazGreen]

Unlocking all the DLC characters at once might be one of the most satisfying things I've ever experienced in a game.

 

[Megadoomer]

Looking through the notification for the Dearly Beloved song, it doesn't look like it will be made available to people who bought FP2 at a later date, unlike spirits that are tied to games. (The notifications for the Rathalos Rider, Sophie, and Arthur spirits all say that those spirits will be made available at a later date, while this just says that you get the song if you have FP2 and save data for Melody of Memories)

That's a little annoying, since I'm the type of person who wants to get all of the collectibles. (I'm annoyed that the Knuckle Joe trophy in Smash 4 is locked behind a challenge that seems near-impossible) Still, with the Rathalos Rider spirit available to everyone, I've almost got a complete collection of spirits now. I just need the Sora alts, and they'll show up eventually.

 

[Firox]

Am I missing something or is there a glitch with my Hollow Bastion stage? No matter what I do, last life, low time, whatever, the background never changes to that dark void place with the stained glass. Is anyone else experiencing this?

 

[BlazGreen]

Am I missing something or is there a glitch with my Hollow Bastion stage? No matter what I do, last life, low time, whatever, the background never changes to that dark void place with the stained glass. Is anyone else experiencing this?

The change doesn't happen if hazards are turned off sadly.

 

[Gengar84]

Easy peesy!

View attachment 334820

Shoulda been Shovel Knight.

I would definitely be happy with this pass, especially with Bill Rizer and Ryu Hyabusa, but I wonder if four NES reps are a bit much for one pass. Although I could definitely be persuaded with an all NES pass if the Battletoads got in over Kunio and Riki.

 

[Firox]

The change doesn't happen if hazards are turned off sadly.

Ah, yup, that's it. Huh. That's pretty dumb. It's not like the stage changes in any physical way. Wonder why they counted it as a hazard?

 

[Trevenant]

Am I missing something or is there a glitch with my Hollow Bastion stage? No matter what I do, last life, low time, whatever, the background never changes to that dark void place with the stained glass. Is anyone else experiencing this?

Might be some shenanigans with the hazard toggle if I had to guess unless you aren't on the actual last stock. Aside from that, mine's working fine, and does even in Omega and BF versions.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Ah, yup, that's it. Huh. That's pretty dumb. It's not like the stage changes in any physical way. Wonder why they counted it as a hazard?

's mining.

 

[Firox]

's mining.

Fricking Steve...

I swear, this game has so many layered facets, it's insane.

 

[Megadoomer]

This has probably been brought up, but I found out that Sora's Final Smash is one of the ones that automatically KOs people if they're hit by it and are at over 100% damage when it ends, like Ridley's or Bayonetta's.

 

[Baba]

wasn't Sora supposed to have a longer victory theme that looped like Cloud's?

 

[3BitSaurus]

Alright, so first impressions:

Regarding Sora's playstyle - he's really fun to play. I think he's not insanely good at first glance like Joker and Pyra/Mythra were, but his skill ceiling will probably go up a lot in the coming months. I also feel like he lacks kill power at early percents and is prone to being interrupted mid-combos, which help balance him out.

Fun fact, if you time your positioning right playing against him, you can actually weave in-between the Thundaga beams. Unless you're playing a heavy, of course.

Then there's his lightweight factor. I legit lost a stock to Wario side tilt at 90%. From midstage. Yeah, he's really light. I think the matchup with Sephiroth might be really interesting because he's also light, but has more early kill power (and I totally didn't just try fighting him in the KHII alt first thing, no sir).

The Classic Mode was... slightly disappointing? Not just because of the boss (come on man, its practically a meme at this point), but the way they went about it is... a bit weird? Like, the segment that seems like a homage to the original first fight against the horde of Heartless on Destiny Islands is played on Skyworld instead of Tortimer's Island. Most events are also out of order in a way? But I do appreciate the Cloud fight in the Colosseum tho.

The Spirits were interesting. Particularly Riku and Roxas. Oh boy, the latter one was great. We both Sonic Blade'd each other once, and I finished him off with the FS. Good stuff. At the same time, fighting Axel (or, well, a representation of Axel) without The 13th Struggle feels weird, man.

Also:

 

[Michael the Spikester]

/

The roster is finally complete. We can truly call it Ultimate now.

 

[BlondeLombax]

Unlocking all the DLC characters at once might be one of the most satisfying things I've ever experienced in a game.

I took a snapshot of every unlock splash screen since Plant. I'm a bit of a perfectionist.

 

[FreeFox]

The patch looks like Low / Mid Tier Buff city.

(Now we'll simply have to see how significant those changes are, but still I'm posting this since some changes will trip people up. I'm posting this in detail because of that - there are some potentially nasty changes here):

got the buffs Momotsuki mentioned here. D-Air's gone from Frame 16 to 14. Might give him some more confirms, especially D-Air that's hit on grounded opponents and the fact that N-Air / U-Air lasts longer helps his fundamentals. Grounded Doc Tornado gains its armor almost instantly now - aerial Doc Tornado does not have the armor that grounded one has though, so the impact might be limited. Overall though, those changes do help him out.
might be one of the biggest winners here since it got major Jab / B-Air endlag buffs and D-Throw appears to be more of a combo throw. Jab is a lot safer and has more follow ups at low %. B-Air now can threaten follow ups at low % and... one can now Short hop B-air a shield and either directional air dodge for safety or Rest their response. Oh boy. Also as a result, Puff got a Jab -> B-Air combo at high % now.

And... D-Throw -> Rest looks kinda viable (sure, a big target like DK, but still):

If nothing else people will have to respect D-Throw now because if Puff jumps after... they have to react or possibly get comboed / rested.

got knockback buffs on U-Smash and D-Smash (+ a sweetspot buff on D-Smash), sweetspot buff on D-Air and Jab damage / slight lag reduction. Seems to be some really consequential stuff, now Jab 1 -> D-Smash is an actual combo at a lot of %s, and Jab 1 can now threaten Lightning Kick or Grab as well. Also, Rapid Jab / Flurry gained a significant boost as a result. The QoL buff on D-Air veers into significant territory too. This patch helped her out a lot it seems.
got F-Tilt knockback buff, D-Tilt comes out faster (Down from Frame 9 to Frame 7) - meaning it can be spammed more and mitigate pressure better - and dash attack's sweetspot is now just a little easier to hit with. Maybe not huge, but helpful.
got consistency fixes to D-Smash and Side B - making sure Luma appears in front for both. Helpful since previously Luma had trouble following it seems.
's down angled F-Smash almost insta-breaks shield now uncharged, and when combined with D-Tilt beforehand will. This change will trip a lot of people up, I can tell you that.

Straight Lunge (B) got a lot of changes: knockback increase, lag reduction, increased speed and the ability to buffer the punch - meaning the armoring is improved too - while Up B got a knockback buff and Down B has a stronger damage multiplier (from 1.3X to 1.5X). In particular D-Tilt -> Up B appears to be a legimitate kill confirm again. Oh and Up Tilt apparently got a hitstun buff allowing it to combo into lots of stuff (it true comboes into Jab, itself, KO Punch, or Up B).

Chances are that these buffs have a medium-to-major impact actually and Mac winds up one of the big beneficiaries.

got a really slight buff to Side B (edit: ****, I misread this entirely initially) : when ridley grabs someone in side b the bump into the ground is a bit faster (thanks Wunderwaft for pointing this out). Okay, this is very small, but might help in edge cases.
got buffs to Up Tilt's damage and knockback, F-Smash's hit detection and range early on, lag reduction on F-Air and knockback buff on U-Throw. Not huge buffs it seems, but still welcome for him.
got reduced lag on D-Tilt, her F-Smash and F-Throw got a QoL knockback fix and small knockback / notable range buff on D-Smash. The latter is decently impactful since her already potent Jab does confirm into lots of stuff like D-Tilt and D-Smash (especially when shielded - she can shieldbreak surprisingly consistently). Does help her quite a bit, but we'll have to see how much.
got damage and knockback buffs on D-Smash, as well damage buff on U-Air and Up B. Not too sure if it'll help the cat much, but their intent is nevertheless clear.

I could wind up wrong and some changes turn out bigger / smaller, but this is the impression I'm getting.

No nerfs it looks like. Huh.

No buffs to , , or feels really weird. They're probably afraid to buff Ganon more since he does presumably well at casual levels (please buff or rework him). The latter three though would probably appriciate some. Same goes for and - both of which could use some hitbox / frame data adjustments.

Okay, so Sora stuff:

• Sora's Counter not only beats most Up Bs, it also beats Wonderwing and Buster Wolf entirely. It also hits under the ledge, making Counterattack even more dangerous.
• Aerial Sweep (Up B) kills pretty early, we're looking at around 90% near the upper blast zone. An instant double jump Up Air can confirm into it.
• Sluggish start up might be a problem in CQC situations, but can be overcome with some patience. Same with the out of shield situations.
• D-Tilt is quick but has deceptively short range. Does threaten U-Tilt / U-Smash followups though. If one has good timing one can combo tapped F-Air -> D-Tilt -> U-Tilt (or even Up Smash) for starters.
• While Sonic Blade (Side B) will be really difficult and unsafe as an approach option, it can be difficult to catch sometimes and looks decent as a aerial mixup.
• Even though Sora can recover and edgeguard from any position, he'll have to watch out for ledgetrap / 2 frame scenarios due to his low weight.
• Combo potential looks really good, here's a Sora combo vid that shows everything from basic to really advanced stuff. I'm pretty sure that Soras that have practiced will look like KH2's zany aerial combat soon enough. One can even wobble in the air by using N-Air 1 / 2 and get like 30+ %. WTF.

All in all, my early bet is that a lot of people are going to keep playing him for months or years to come simply because he's fun for a lot of people - regardless of how effective he turns out.



Feeling really optimistic about Ultimate's future, what with Sora being really fun and a number of minor-to-relevant buffs to a number of characters. I don't wanna go full optimistic just in case, but still.

Yeah. Sora´s counter has some really unique properties.

As for the buffs, I am glad since I play many of these characters.

Alright, so first impressions:

Regarding Sora's playstyle - he's really fun to play. I think he's not insanely good at first glance like Joker and Pyra/Mythra were, but his skill ceiling will probably go up a lot in the coming months. I also feel like he lacks kill power at early percents and is prone to being interrupted mid-combos, which help balance him out.

Fun fact, if you time your positioning right playing against him, you can actually weave in-between the Thundaga beams. Unless you're playing a heavy, of course.

Then there's his lightweight factor. I legit lost a stock to Wario side tilt at 90%. From midstage. Yeah, he's really light. I think the matchup with Sephiroth might be really interesting because he's also light, but has more early kill power (and I totally didn't just try fighting him in the KHII alt first thing, no sir).

The Classic Mode was... slightly disappointing? Not just because of the boss (come on man, its practically a meme at this point), but the way they went about it is... a bit weird? Like, the segment that seems like a homage to the original first fight against the horde of Heartless on Destiny Islands is played on Skyworld instead of Tortimer's Island. Most events are also out of order in a way? But I do appreciate the Cloud fight in the Colosseum tho.

The Spirits were interesting. Particularly Riku and Roxas. Oh boy, the latter one was great. We both Sonic Blade'd each other once, and I finished him off with the FS. Good stuff. At the same time, fighting Axel (or, well, a representation of Axel) without The 13th Struggle feels weird, man.

Also:

Yeah, he feels like a hard to master character but he also seem pretty powerful. I am sure he will end up doing pretty well on the competitive scene once people get the hang of him.

 

[Discoball Fever]

This is a little pedantic but I always wished that once they finished the fighters they would update this art from the spirit menu to represent more of the DLC roster, I suppose it will forever be stuck on just the Persona 5 spirits as they came first though.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I would definitely be happy with this pass, especially with Bill Rizer and Ryu Hyabusa, but I wonder if four NES reps are a bit much for one pass.

They aren't JUST NES reps though. Their franchises span many consoles.

A mere NES rep is someone like Ice Climbers, ROB, or Duck Hunt.

 

[Gengar84]

They aren't JUST NES reps though. Their franchises span many consoles.

A mere NES rep is someone like Ice Climbers, ROB, or Duck Hunt.

That’s true. I would argue that, with the possible exception of Ryu Hyabusa, they are probably best known for their NES games but you’re right that they have all appeared on multiple consoles.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I do hope the DS gets more love next game. Neku and Phoenix as playable, more content from DS games… we still only have Lucario as our lone DS generation character

 

[Gengar84]

I do hope the DS gets more love next game. Neku and Phoenix as playable, more content from DS games… we still only have Lucario as our lone DS generation character

Yeah, I would like some more representation from every console. I’ve never really been much of a handheld gamer other than Pokémon but I would be happy to see the DS get some more love even if there aren’t any characters that specifically cater to me.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I’d also suggest Layton for a DS rep

…were it not for Level 5’s… delicate situation

then maybe Derek Stiles Trauma Center will begin the operation

GIVE US A NEW TC SERIES GAME ATLUS ITS LITERALLY BEEN A DECADE

 

[Gengar84]

I’d also suggest Layton for a DS rep

…were it not for Level 5’s… delicate situation

then maybe Derek Stiles Trauma Center will begin the operation

GIVE US A NEW TC SERIES GAME ATLUS ITS LITERALLY BEEN A DECADE

It really is a shame the whole situation with Level 5. I would have loved to see a revival of Rogue Galaxy or the Dark Cloud series but it’s looking like that’s not going to happen.

I’m struggling to come up with a DS rep that would personally get me hyped other than another Pokémon. I feel like I probably missed out on something cool but I’ve never played a Layton, Ace Attorney, or World Ends with You game. I’d like to get around to at least trying TWEWY some day.

 

[N3ON]

Yeah ofc Sora's cool and all but I don't know how you can argue that this isn't the best part of the update

 

[3BitSaurus]

Three other things I forgot to mention: first, I kinda wish the Down Special was something else, like Strike Raid. I get that they wanted to showcase something similar to the parrying and reflecting mechanics that appear in KH games, but at the same time, I just think there are more interesting things for Sora to have.

Second, I had been struggling to put it into words, but I felt that Sora was a bit slower than I imagined. After playing a few times, I realize not only that it's probably part of his balancing, but it makes him a bit more like the first KH, unlike KHII for example, which is a lot more snappy.

Finally, I found out that DAir kills upwards at high percents on lighter characters like Puff. That's all.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I do hope the DS gets more love next game. Neku and Phoenix as playable, more content from DS games… we still only have Lucario as our lone DS generation character

Now it's Fossil Fighters's time to shine!

Man, I miss Fossil Fighters and wish Frontier hadn't been trash gameplay-wise

 

[N3ON]

I do hope the DS gets more love next game. Neku and Phoenix as playable, more content from DS games… we still only have Lucario as our lone DS generation character

Tbf Phoenix would be a GBA rep, if the character is defined by their first platform, despite later prominence. Like how Villager is an N64 rep.

One potential DS character who all but vanished after deconfirmation, despite being really popular beforehand, and still getting releases, is Ashley. I'd be fine with her inclusion, but it's just strange how her support went from such peaks to seemingly crumbling overnight.

 

[Will]

Hero getting left behind because he's the only one who doesn't know how to glide.

View attachment 334871

We'll see who's laughing when he gets that Zoom in like, six RNG controlled menu window screens.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

I’d also suggest Layton for a DS rep

…were it not for Level 5’s… delicate situation

then maybe Derek Stiles Trauma Center will begin the operation

GIVE US A NEW TC SERIES GAME ATLUS ITS LITERALLY BEEN A DECADE

YeS, we layton fans getnit, Level 5 is rocky rn, we get it, we . Get. It