Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Michael the Spikester]

March: Yuri Lowell
June/E3: Chun-Li
September: Cinderace

 

[Golden Icarus]

I think it was even the same actor wearing different outfits, but I could be wrong.

No you're right. In fact it was the same actor wearing the same outfit. They had identical normals in the early games. That's why same normals, different specials could work. I still think it's a lame way to go.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

Been away for 10 days because of a broken laptop and we've jumped like 90 pages. Wow.

On the whole Dark Souls thing, I'd imagine the character would probably compensate for their frame data with extensive defensive options. Healing, better Link shield, etc. It's one of those character ideas I think should get blown up in disadvantage, but should also blow people up for making a mistake. High stress, high reward.

Nah, I mentioned Ryu and Ken for a reason. They have incredibly different movesets despite being echos. Give Scorpion and Sub Zero the same normals but entirely different specials. That was how it was in MK 1-3.
All that matters fir them to be echos is a shared skeleton and model.

Technically speaking, echoes also have the same stats (weight, speed, turnaround, etc.) as the original so that it won't mess up the balancing process. I'm pretty sure Sakurai has admitted that calling Ken an echo is cheating on the idea because he has more differences than the parameters normally allow. I don't think an echo with different specials would be out of the running, as it has happened before with Chrom and to a lesser extent Dark Pit, but Ken's not the greatest comparison point.

 

[SpecterFlower]

I wasn't active on the boards during the ARMS character speculation, so I luckily didn't witness that. As a big fan of ARMS, that's cringe.

"Yes this gigantic mummy who towers over all the other characters can have the same animations as this pile of goo"

that makes perfect sense

as another person who played ARMS that was horrible, that's like saying that Ryu, Ken, Blanka, Chun-li, Dhalsim, Guile, E Honda and Zangief could have all been alts of one another blatantly ignoring their vastly different body types and abilities.

you could really tell who played and who didn't play ARMS.

 

[Ivander]

Pretty much what Faso said.

By the time Dark Souls really made its franchise massive, the Soulcalibur devs already had settled on Ezio for the guest of SCV... and then the game ended up having literally no single-player content aside from a really ****ty story mode and its roster left many casual fans outright pissed off at Namco, cutting out many beloved favorites and replacing them with inexperienced brats with as much personality as a sheet of paper.

And the one "Quick Battle" mode that was practically a pseudo-online mode with AI opponents. It was......decent at best, and much better than Tower of Lost Souls from IV, but it was certainly not Weapon Master Mode/Chronicles of the Sword levels of replay-ability.

And I enjoyed Patroklos. Sure, the other ones weren't good, especially the expies of Naruto and Goku, but Patroklos was still hammy enough to enjoy and was a nice accurate depiction of actual historical "knights". And him being gaslighted into killing "for justice" through his anger and hatred is better than your frickin' goody two-shoes who is too nice following the orders of the "laughably obviously evil" lord.

How bad it is? They somehow ****ed up Nightmare by making him a conqueror instead of the bloodthirsty monster he's always been known as. And that's just the tip of the iceberg of how bad V is from a story aspect.

I mean, one, Nightmare has always had a conqueror side to him since Soul Calibur 1 where he used his Malfested army(and IIRC, alongside Astaroth, Aeon/Lizardman and maybe Ivy) to conquer Ostrheinsburg and used that as his base of operation until his defeat. And two, he had a different host, one who was alot more scheming in nature, so it's not surprising if his host affected the way he thought. Heck, the times when he was more of a conqueror were the ones where he had a human host whereas the times when he's a much more bloodthirsty monster is when Inferno is in control during III and IV.

It's honestly a miracle Project Soul wasn't disbanded after that mess.

Nope it did. After Soul Calibur V, the main team that worked on both IV and V was disbanded. The team doing Soulcalibur VI was very different from the ones who did SCIV and V.

But what can you expect when the development team was screwed over by Namco in favor of Street Fighter X Tekken? When Soucalibur V was supposed to release around a later date around March/April with some more content including Bangoo and Cassandra with a ^%@$ing Longsword(seriously, why do they hate this weapon so much? Like this weapon and having a Sword & Shield user with a moveset that doesn't involve crotches and cheeks are on the top of Namco's list for "Things to avoid putting in Soulcalibur"), but Namco chose to bring forward the release date due to another certain game that was coming in March rather than delay the game? And then came the Lost Souls spin-off game that was being headed by a guy with an obsession for Alexandra girls?

Soulcalibur V did have problems, no denying there, but man, the gameplay(the fighting part) was the most fun since SCII and SCIII, but was hurt by it's lack of Single player modes and it sucks that the development team got screwed in favor of the game that would put Capcom in the hot seat due to the insane amount of On-disk DLC. It is easily an example of a game of "Don't rush your frickin' games' development."

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Ken also was specifically meant to be effectively just Player 2. The MK Ninjas are not that.

Also, we don't really know how many differences really count. Ken is more of an outlier, and even his specials are pretty clearly similar. He doesn't have outright different specials. Even Chrom has a way more unique one. Which makes sense why Sakurai would call Ken "cheating" the idea. This is why the only truly hard definition is same bodyshape right now. The stats/etc. can vary, but they tend to be pretty much the same for the most part.

Characters that have had the same normals but very different specials were pretty much regular clones at best in Smash. It could be labeled an Echo if they have the same bodyshape, but honestly it depends upon how much is "too much" for Sakurai. Ken is kind of unique in that regard. Frankly he would've made sense to be a regular clone, and he's actually closer to Ryu is than Dr. Mario is to Mario, and these two(Ken/Dr. Mario) are still extremely similar to their counterpart.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Been away for 10 days because of a broken laptop and we've jumped like 90 pages. Wow.

On the whole Dark Souls thing, I'd imagine the character would probably compensate for their frame data with extensive defensive options. Healing, better Link shield, etc. It's one of those character ideas I think should get blown up in disadvantage, but should also blow people up for making a mistake. High stress, high reward.


Technically speaking, echoes also have the same stats (weight, speed, turnaround, etc.) as the original so that it won't mess up the balancing process. I'm pretty sure Sakurai has admitted that calling Ken an echo is cheating on the idea because he has more differences than the parameters normally allow. I don't think an echo with different specials would be out of the running, as it has happened before with Chrom and to a lesser extent Dark Pit, but Ken's not the greatest comparison point.

I guess Ken may be a bad example. Though Scorpion and Sub Zero could very easily have the same stats, since they had identical stats in their earlier games.
While I would vastly prefer making Scorpion and Sub Zero unique characters, making them heavily altered echos is just more realistic.

 

[7NATOR]

I was the Person that thought they'd make all 15 ARMS Characters as Playable

I thought it would like the Mii Fighters where not only could you switch the ARMS, but you could also customize the abilities depending on the Character. I think I was being too Optimistic though
----------------------------------------------

I also think the idea of Scorpion and Sub-Zero having the Same Stats and Normals, but Different Specials would work if you wanted to classify one of them as an echo, As you'd just have to balance the Special moves between each other

...Is what I would have said before, but thinking about it Scorpion's and Sub-Zero's Specials work way too differently that you can't just balance them next to each other, Especially Sub since his Specials have been the bane of MK Players for long time (though Scorpion has alot of complaints as well)

and they couldn't do it in Ultimate, since you already have to balance and do all the work on one of the characters (Likely Scorpion), I don't think they could do both Scorpion and Sub anyway. yes

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I guess that's true. That being said, I think those problems would still be greater for Chosen Undead or whoever potentially gets in.

-Ganondorf was designed as a slower more damage-heavy Captain Falcon and people who didn`t/don't like Ganon play as Captain Falcon instead.

-Sephiroth has some end lag but none of his regular moves come close to being as slow as those in Dark Souls. He also has a variety of faster attacks and somewhat quick movement speed.

-Byleth is kinda the same situation as Sephiroth. Can be slow but not nearly as much as I'd imagine a Dark Souls rep would be. Byleth also has some attacks with a decent(ish) amount of speed, but movement wise I think Byleth would probably be the most similar to Chosen Undead.


That being said I still think Chosen Undead would be a cool addition so I'd be happy if they actually made it in.

The deal is that Dark Souls's slow animations are to sell the weight of the character and their weapons, and to ground it more in realism right? Well, this is Smash, so realism isn't as big of a deal, and there are ways to convey a sense of weight in less frames. In fact, pretty much every character uses these techniques to make their attacks feel powerful, they'd just be more obvious on a Dark Souls character, and characters that move like them, like the Monster Hunter.

 

[DanganZilla5]

I present to you all my Bill Rizer essay that argues in favor of Contra's inclusion (Located below in the files section). Let me know what you all think. Any feedback or objections are welcomed. This was so much fun to make and I hope it is as exciting for you to read as it was for me to make it.

Tagging Rie Sonomura as they wanted to read this.

Edit: I just wanted to correct something. Microsoft does not own Cuohead, making the last counter argument moot. I will change this and come up with a new defense. If anyone wants to see the corrected version, PM me.

 

[Commander_Alph]

Unrelated but I like that everyone refer to Bandai Namco as just Namco as if Bandai never merge with Namco, I know that it's to shorten their name not out of pure ignorance but I still think that it's better to refer to them as Bamco.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Something that bugs me whenever non gaming characters are brought up: why is it always Goku?

Goku is the Micky Mouse of Japan.

If your gonna go 4th party(which hopefully, they never do), go as big as you can!

The Day Goku gets in is not the Day Smash dies, but Evolves to something greater

It's also the day it stops being about video games.

Much like how most additions to the game are 3rd party these days, once that 4th party barrier comes down, that's all most people are going to care about.

 

[Commander_Alph]

Goku is the Micky Mouse of Japan.

If your gonna go 4th party, go as big as you can!

Mickey is bigger than Goku, so why not go with Mickey

 

[PLATINUM7]

Goku is the Micky Mouse of Japan.

If your gonna go 4th party, go as big as you can!

I thought that would be Doraemon.

 

[7NATOR]

Mickey is bigger than Goku, so why not go with Mickey

If rumors are any indication, That's what Disney was thinking when Nintendo went to go ask for Sora.

 

[ChunkySlugger72]

If y'all want Spongebob in Smash.

How about just making a petition to Nick to create a Nicktoons Smash-style game. Nick has plenty of characters to have such a large roster from all their IPs.

Closest you'll get to Spongebob in Smash and also a win for me if Daggett is among the characters.

I'm surprised that Nickelodeon hasn't already tackled that idea "on console" considering Cartoon Network already did back during the Wii era using their roster of cartoons (Powerpuff Girls, Dexter, Johnny Bravo, Grim Adventures of Billy & Mandy, Samurai Jack etc).

Nick definitely has a deep enough library of characters for a robust roster and I would be intrigued by the idea, Especially seeing the more "Slapstick heavy style" 90's cartoons in action which were some of my favorite (Spongebob, Ren & Stimpy, Rocko's, Angry Beavers, CatDog etc)

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I think Echo Fighters were best defined by the idea that they are alternate costumes that allow for gameplay changes so long as they don't affect the character's balance. (I forgot who said this) EDIT: Ah! Saw the name. It was Koopaul.

This would mean that yeah, they have to have the same proportions because they wouldn't otherwise work as alternate costumes. This also means that whatever changes are made have to either be benign, like with the different animations, or cause the characters to have a proportional boost to their strengths and weaknesses such that making a balance change for the base character has more or less the same effect in the Echo Fighter.

This would also explain why Dr. Mario isn't an Echo Fighter; If you were to make one of Mario's moves do more damage and knockback, chances are, Dr. Mario's attack already is stronger, and would become kinda stupid if you buffed it that way.

Unrelated but I like that everyone refer to Bandai Namco as just Namco as if Bandai never merge with Namco, I know that it's to shorten their name not out of pure ignorance but I still think that it's better to refer to them as Bamco.

As someone who prefers that things be called their actual name, the term Bamco drives me bonkers.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

I'm surprised that Nickelodeon hasn't tackled that idea "on console" considering Cartoon Network already did back during the Wii using their roster of cartoons (Powerpuff Girls, Dexter, Johnny Bravo, Grim Adventures of Billy & Mandy, Samurai Jack etc).

Nick definitely has a deep enough library of characters for a robust roster and I would be intrigued by the idea, Especially seeing the more "Slapstick heavy style" 90's cartoons in action which were some of my favorite (Spongebob, Ren & Stimpy, Rocko's, Angry Beavers, CatDog etc)

More the reason it needs to happen.

Just as long as my boi Daggett gets in. I'd even settle for him as an alt for Norbert.

Hell you would think given how popular Smash is, there'd be more Smash-Style games from companies alone whether Nick, Microsoft, DreamWorks Animation, Disney (I recall there were plans but was scrapped), and such.

 

[Commander_Alph]

As someone who prefers that things be called their actual name, the term Bamco drives me bonkers.

For me it's the opposite, I know that calling them "Bandai Namco" all the time didn't roll off the tongue but at least acknowledge them as one company rather than refer to just one of them even just by name.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Goku is the Micky Mouse of Japan.

If your gonna go 4th party(which hopefully, they never do), go as big as you can!

No that would actually be Mario.

On top of that, he's the Mickey of Nintendo and video games.

 

[Commander_Alph]

No that would actually be Mario.

On top of that, he's the Mickey of Nintendo and video games.

Might as well make a crossover cartoon game with Mickey as the mascot and crossover anime game with Goku as the poster boy.

 

[Greyfox22]

The deal is that Dark Souls's slow animations are to sell the weight of the character and their weapons, and to ground it more in realism right? Well, this is Smash, so realism isn't as big of a deal, and there are ways to convey a sense of weight in less frames. In fact, pretty much every character uses these techniques to make their attacks feel powerful, they'd just be more obvious on a Dark Souls character, and characters that move like them, like the Monster Hunter.

It does have to do with realism, but I think the general slowness and stiffness of attacking in Dark Souls is attached to choosing carefully when to hit so you don't get damaged during the ending lag of your attack. It's a pretty defining feature of the games and I think it would be weird if it wasn't incorporated into a Dark Souls rep's moveset, but I guess the Smash team could choose not to incorporate it seeing as it wouldn't make the character very fun to play in a fast-paced fighting game. I'd personally love to see a DS rep in Smash if they brought a good moveset with them.

 

[Commander_Alph]

DS rep

I thought you meant a rep from Nintendo DS & 3DS for a sec.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

More the reason it needs to happen.

Just as long as my boi Daggett gets in. I'd even settle for him as an alt for Norbert.

Hell you would think given how popular Smash is, there'd be more Smash-Style games from companies alone whether Nick, Microsoft, DreamWorks Animation, Disney (I recall there were plans but was scrapped), and such.

Smash is just so big that it's hard to make a new game based on it. Sony tried it and it didn't have the success that they wanted. Besides, I'd rather have more Microsoft in Smash instead of them trying to do their own thing. It works with other characters like Manga, television, movie etc. but Smash can't be compete in term of video game crossover fighter.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I think Echo Fighters were best defined by the idea that they are alternate costumes that allow for gameplay changes so long as they don't affect the character's balance. (I forgot who said this)

With this definition, it's doubtful that Scorpion and Sub Zero could be Echo Fighters since, assuming they'd be purely based off of their Mortal Kombat 2 iterations, Scorpion has a hit grab projectile, a teleport, an air grab, and grab that trips opponents, which I'd imagine wouldn't be balanced in the same way as a projectile that freezes opponents in place, a trap that causes them to trip, and a sliding kick, even if the normals were all the same.

It does have to do with realism, but I think the general slowness and stiffness of attacking in Dark Souls is attached to choosing carefully when to hit so you don't get damaged during the ending lag of your attack. It's a pretty defining feature of the games and I think it would be weird if it wasn't incorporated into a Dark Souls rep's moveset, but I guess the Smash team could choose not to incorporate it seeing as it wouldn't make the character very fun to play in a fast-paced fighting game. I'd personally love to see a DS rep in Smash if they brought a good moveset with them.

Well in that case, there are already fighters designed like this. Well, you could argue that all fighters are like this, but oversimplifications aside, most grapplers have easy to punish attacks (so don't spam) that do a lot of damage, and their goal is to capitalize on mistakes rather than just come out swinging.

 

[DevaAshera]

I mean you can go small first just like Smash with only Nintendo characters and little by little if the series succeed and is very profitable then you know that some author will lend their manga to be featured (I'm not including the anime director of said adaptation cause it will all boiled down to whether or not the author allow it and this could be said with anime original in which you have to talk to the director). Tho you already know that everyone is already tired of seeing Goku, Naruto, and Luffy appearing on a lackluster arena fighting game but that won't help cause Shonen Jump is basically Nintendo of manga/anime world. I mean at least if they want to make a crossover anime/manga game they don't need to add "Jump" or any form of indication that it's obviously only include Shonen title, make it just like Super Smash Bros where it's super vague and doesn't ties in directly to Nintendo other than Bros. which always used in Mario games.


Tho about them having only Japan Dub is not a big problem as I can't see a time where an english dub actor have to voice 5 different characters and will sound too similar, like all english dub anime sounds like.

Even going small it would still cost a fortune and be extremely difficult.
For example, Tatsunoko vs Capcom took a LONG while to get released in the West and, when it did, it needed to be heavily altered. For example, they had to cut Hakushon Daimaō due to rights issues in the West, despite being a fairly obscure character like most of Tatsunoko's characters, though making up for it by adding 5 new characters, such as Zero & Joe the Condor, losing all character theme songs (aside from Roll's, which was made into her own ending credits song and given a new English version), and Capcom just generally saying that the game itself was a miracle to bring over.

That was with Tatsunoko series, virtually unknown in the West, not imagine the rights issues with series popular in the West, such as Dragon Ball, Naruto, One Piece, Bleach, My Hero Academia, etc..series that have their rights split not just with the original Author, their publisher, and the studio doing the anime adaptions, but now add in the manga localizers and anime localizers that they are licensed to in the West..per territory, since its not always the same..it can easily become a nightmare even with a small selection, unlike with Video Games, where all rights are solely retained by the original company, which is why we don't see 'SEGA USA' 'Atlus West' 'NIS America' etc in the copyright info in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate....Capcom USA is an outlier due to Capcom USA owning the copyright to the Street Fighter series so that they didn't have to keep asking Capcom for permission to hold Western Tournaments.

 

[cothero]

I thought that would be Doraemon.

Pikachu seeing you guys ignoring him as Japan's Mickey Mouse:

 

[andree123]

Bowser's Fury will be unleashed in a new #SuperMario3DWorld + #BowsersFury trailer tomorrow! Come back at 6am PT to see the 2-minute long trailer. pic.twitter.com/gCDpOiViK1

— Nintendo of America (@NintendoAmerica) January 12, 2021

New trailer for Bowser's Fury coming soon.

Well, proper Nintendo directs will might come back in March and beyond. After the Zelda and Pokemon directs in February.

 

[Koopaul]

I'm pretty sure its been said that Astro Boy is the Mickey Mouse of Japan.

Anyway....

Well, proper Nintendo directs will might come back in March and beyond. After the Zelda and Pokemon directs in February.

As long as they give me the proper heads up I don't care if Directs come back. I hated shadow drops. This is nice that they have the courtesy of prepping us for some sweet reaction moments.

 

[PK-remling Fire]

I always thought that the Japan equivalent to Mickey was Hello Kitty, with it being one of the highest grossing franchises of all time and all.

 

[cothero]

I always thought that the Japan equivalent to Mickey was Hello Kitty, with it being one of the highest grossing franchises of all time and all.

Hello Kitty clearly is Mickey Mouse's echo.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

Hello Kitty clearly is Mickey Mouse's echo.

Nah, Hello Kitty's an echo of Pete. Who is an echo of Goofy. Who is an echo of Pluto.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

I'm pretty sure its been said that Astro Boy is the Mickey Mouse of Japan.

Well then. Mario is the Mickey of video games then.

 

[Kyphlosion16]

My predictions for the final fighters in FP2
CP 9 Lloyd Irving (March Reveal)
CP 10 Crash Bandicoot (E3 Reveal)
CP 11 Ryu Hayabusa (Q4 Reveal)

 

[Commander_Alph]

Even going small it would still cost a fortune and be extremely difficult.
For example, Tatsunoko vs Capcom took a LONG while to get released in the West and, when it did, it needed to be heavily altered. For example, they had to cut Hakushon Daimaō due to rights issues in the West, despite being a fairly obscure character like most of Tatsunoko's characters, though making up for it by adding 5 new characters, such as Zero & Joe the Condor, losing all character theme songs (aside from Roll's, which was made into her own ending credits song and given a new English version), and Capcom just generally saying that the game itself was a miracle to bring over.

That was with Tatsunoko series, virtually unknown in the West, not imagine the rights issues with series popular in the West, such as Dragon Ball, Naruto, One Piece, Bleach, My Hero Academia, etc..series that have their rights split not just with the original Author, their publisher, and the studio doing the anime adaptions, but now add in the manga localizers and anime localizers that they are licensed to in the West..per territory, since its not always the same..it can easily become a nightmare even with a small selection, unlike with Video Games, where all rights are solely retained by the original company, which is why we don't see 'SEGA USA' 'Atlus West' 'NIS America' etc in the copyright info in Super Smash Bros. Ultimate....Capcom USA is an outlier due to Capcom USA owning the copyright to the Street Fighter series so that they didn't have to keep asking Capcom for permission to hold Western Tournaments.

Off, that's rough, I forgot that Tatsu Vs Capcom exist and how hard they have to handle all of the ownership. I suppose I've heard about a game called Super Robot Wars which is a crossover mecha game all around Japanese media, it's successful for sure but that never came to overseas.

 

[Adrianette Bromide]

I'm not even gonna try to predict anymore. I like the fun of speculation but actually making cold stone predictions, meh. I'll be wrong and look stupid lol. Especially since the last two characters I dropped from my predictions were Steve and Sephiroth... Heh.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Off, that's rough, I forgot that Tatsu Vs Capcom exist and how hard they have to handle all of the ownership. I suppose I've heard about a game called Super Robot Wars which is a crossover mecha game all around Japanese media, it's successful for sure but that never came to overseas.

Doesn't the copyright listing cover up the entire cartridge on the Switch game? That's how you know something's ****ed lmao. I remember there was also a survival horror kaiju game with Godzilla, Gundam, Evangelion, Patlabour and Ultraman which obviously never got a localization

 

[Commander_Alph]

Doesn't the copyright listing cover up the entire cartridge on the Switch game?

You mean this?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

You mean this?

Damn they really got a ****ing Kamen rider in this ****.

But nah I meant the cartridge which looks like this

 

[Perkilator]

You mean this?

sees bottom

Uh, what?