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Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

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Sucumbio

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"The battle ended with the victory of..."

Pup Napoleon

Sorry I keep hearing that in my head with the same voice dude as was in sc2 on gc. Carry on 😅
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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Here's the thing with Sonic and Shadow: They're similar aesthetically by design, as one is made in the other's image. They differ greatly in personality; Shadow is the more serious foil edgy one compared to Sonic's cool dude with the attitude somewhat snarky protagonist energy. Their mannerisms reflect this as well. In terms of abilities they have...most of each others abilities. It's doubtful that Shadow can't Spin Dash, but he rarely does it if he does it at all (likely because he's never been in a 2D title, but eh). Sonic can use Chaos Control, but Shadow is way better at it and uses it more often. Sonic straight up can't use Chaos Spear.

So can Shadow be an Echo Fighter of Sonic? Well...yeah, but it carries the same issues as Dark Samus being one. In this case, the effect is even more prominent because some of Sonic's attacks (Forward Aerial for example) don't make sense on Shadow, and Sonic's gameplan revolves around a move Shadow doesn't use.

Can you faithfully represent Shadow with an Echo Fighter? Difficult to say. Sonic's gameplan is so focused on Spin Dash that removing it would turn him into an entirely different character, so that might pose some issues in terms of the balancing workload. Other than that though, it would probably be fine so long as his signature abilities are all accounted for.
 

Gengar84

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I see Medusa brought up every now and then as a potential Palutena echo. I love Medusa’s design but I’ve never played KI: Uprising. How faithful would Medusa be as a clone? Does she have a lot of the same attacks in KI as Palutena does in Smash?
 

SNEKeater

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Regarding Harada's tweet, I think it would be cool to know which are Sakurai's favorite fighting games of all time. Or maybe his favorite games in general. I'm very curious about it.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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I see Medusa brought up every now and then as a potential Palutena echo. I love Medusa’s design but I’ve never played KI: Uprising. How faithful would Medusa be as a clone? Does she have a lot of the same attacks in KI as Palutena does in Smash?
Um...no, but I imagine a playable Medusa would have a lot of her moveset made up anyhow.

Even so though, I'm not sure she shares the same proportions...
 

Megadoomer

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Are we talking about additional echo fighters?

View attachment 324386

Y'all not ready for her.
I'd gladly pay an extra dollar or two for additional echo fighters, especially Jeanne, Octoling, or some kind of Sonic echo, whether it's Tails (who'd probably fall into the same boat as Ken or Chrom, where he has a few different attacks or a different up special) or Metal Sonic. I'm assuming that Shadow isn't an option due to the assist trophy.

Jeanne would be an especially easy one to make, since they could just have the same changes that she has in the source material (lighter/less health, harder hitting Smash attacks, tighter window of timing for Witch Time)
 
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ahemtoday

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Here's the thing with Sonic and Shadow: They're similar aesthetically by design, as one is made in the other's image. They differ greatly in personality; Shadow is the more serious foil edgy one compared to Sonic's cool dude with the attitude somewhat snarky protagonist energy. Their mannerisms reflect this as well. In terms of abilities they have...most of each others abilities. It's doubtful that Shadow can't Spin Dash, but he rarely does it if he does it at all (likely because he's never been in a 2D title, but eh). Sonic can use Chaos Control, but Shadow is way better at it and uses it more often. Sonic straight up can't use Chaos Spear.

So can Shadow be an Echo Fighter of Sonic? Well...yeah, but it carries the same issues as Dark Samus being one. In this case, the effect is even more prominent because some of Sonic's attacks (Forward Aerial for example) don't make sense on Shadow, and Sonic's gameplan revolves around a move Shadow doesn't use.

Can you faithfully represent Shadow with an Echo Fighter? Difficult to say. Sonic's gameplan is so focused on Spin Dash that removing it would turn him into an entirely different character, so that might pose some issues in terms of the balancing workload. Other than that though, it would probably be fine so long as his signature abilities are all accounted for.
Uh, he could Spin Dash just fine in SA2 and in his own game. Which are pretty prominent appearances, considering they're his debut and his own dang game. There'd be no issue with him Spin Dashing.
 
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Staarih

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I think Echo Fighters didn't really become a "thing" because they're probably not really intended to be a "thing", but rather just quick and easy additions they could fit in during (base game) development... plus a fancy name given to them now. I think having Echo Fighters as DLC would kinda defeat the purpose of DLC as if the character is planned to get in, it would be given the time for full development.

Echo Fighters after the planned DLC, to have a quick buck at the end, I could see happening if they don't want to sacrifice too much time on further development.
 
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SKX31

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Ah, yes:



I kinda miss the weird **** some Nintendo games got away with pre-Wii era.
TBF, even post-Wii era Nintendo have gotten away with some stuff. The Plunger in Color Splash, for example: I'm pretty sure whoever decided "hey, we should have saxophone music playing while the plunger pumps!" is in horny jail now.

Uh, he could Spin Dash just fine in SA2 and in his own game. Which are pretty prominent appearances, considering they're his debut and his own dang game. There'd be no issue with him Spin Dashing.
That's true, although I still agree with what Puppy points out - several of Sonic's attacks might not be the best fit for Shadow (not just F-Air, another one I'm thinking off is U-Air). It's worth noting here that F-Air is a very common follow up from Spin Dash. As such the follow ups from the Spin Dashing might look more natural for Shadow if they were indeed changed. Instead of a spinning headbutt F-Air, a more direct punch or kick suits Shadow better.

Then again, most of the echoes that were introduced in Ultimate were relatively same-y probably due to time constraints and the general workload (this also goes for previous games). They didn't even touch the stats on a couple Echoes, for instance - and they effectively fused Simon's and Richter's movesets. So if Shadow does make it as a Sonic echo I'm not going in expecting a lot to be changed beyond perhaps Chaos Control.
 

DarthEnderX

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Or, just a super big name character that would be big enough to pull more non-Nintendo folks into smash or something...
Not saying that's likely at all, just saying it's another possibility.
I swear to god, if they hold the last character all the way until TGAs, there better at least be a bunch of Echoes in the final update as well.

I also don't understand why the Melee clones that returned are not echoes. Dr Mario was an echo in Sm4sh.
A-****ING-MEN!

I find it interesting how Harada is asking this question.
I'd ask him where he keeps the magic portrait that keeps him from aging.
 
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Inferno7

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They chose echoes he already wanted to add. Legitimately, if they wanted to add characters important to Nintendo, Octoling was a clear inclusion.
As for your others.

Diddy's tail attacks were specifically removed, weren't they?
Shadow plays close to identically like Sonic in almost every single game he is in. It's untrue to the character to force a fully unique moveset upon him. The two signature things he does are Chaos Control and Chaos Spear- and both are animations that could be used from other characters. Considering Sonic is reduced to his primal moves, it would either be Shadow doing the same, or having two characters that don't feel like what they feel to be in game.
Chrom. Not even gonna comment. Fire Emblem is always the exception, the special case, so there is no reason for it not to be this 5th or 6th or 7th time.
Dr Mario was added for the exact reasons of Lucina and Dark Pit, in the same game. Sure, he existed before, but that isn't why he was brought back. The three of them were part of the same categorization in Sm4sh. It's just marketing that he didn't keep that moniker.
-Yes Octoling should be in, but I imagine they came too late in development to be included in any shape or form.

-Idk about Diddy, but even then I think you could make the argument that double-dipping on DK, a spin-off series would be a tad bit too much (I know about FE, but I can't see someone as Dixie or K. Rool having a CP slot full of spirits and music). I still find her omission to be very glaring though.

-Shadow can be both (either unique or semi-clone) and yet he'd be still done justice, that's a fact. Him having a unique moveset wouldn't be ''forced'' I imagine. but rather what Sakurai envisions him as. It really boils down to what the man himself and SEGA are ok with.

-Don't really like to talk about ''FE bias'', quotas and such, but the fan demand was very present in Sm4sh to the point he became a meme, I'll just leave it at there.

-Yes, the reasons and functions could've been the same, but if the dev team (that knows better than us) didn't think of him as an echo, then he most likely shouldn't be.
 
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Rie Sonomura

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I think Echo Fighters didn't really become a "thing" because they're probably not really intended to be a "thing", but rather just quick and easy additions they could fit in during (base game) development... plus a fancy name given to them now. I think having Echo Fighters as DLC would kinda defeat the purpose of DLC as if the character is planned to get in, it would be given the time for full development.

Echo Fighters after the planned DLC, to have a quick buck at the end, I could see happening if they don't want to sacrifice too much time on further development.
They’d probably have to be a lot cheaper than the dlc characters we’ve had so far

I believe PP onwards are what, $4.99 if bought individually? Then DLC echoes should be like $1.99. And no stage or music.
 

Staarih

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They’d probably have to be a lot cheaper than the dlc characters we’ve had so far

I believe PP onwards are what, $4.99 if bought individually? Then DLC echoes should be like $1.99. And no stage or music.
Yeah, or then have a pack of multiple (like, three Echo Fighters) for the same price as one individual DLC fighter.

I still kinda doubt it'll happen as I'm in the boat of "next fighter will be last of all DLC". I'd also love to see stage DLC and stuff like that, but kinda doubting it too lol.
 

Ivander

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I see Medusa brought up every now and then as a potential Palutena echo. I love Medusa’s design but I’ve never played KI: Uprising. How faithful would Medusa be as a clone? Does she have a lot of the same attacks in KI as Palutena does in Smash?
Not really. Palutena and Medusa may look similar to each other with their Uprising designs, but compared to Palutena, Medusa does attack with her own body, like doing a destructive slash with her hands, shooting projectiles from her snake hair, eye lasers, etc. She even punched off the head of the main villain in Uprising. She does have a couple similar skills that Palutena has used, like Medusa has a Warp skill, but most of her attacks are different from Palutena. And obviously, Medusa is much more destructive and full of power.

As someone who has played Uprising, Medusa being an Echo of Palutena would be incredibly disappointing for me. I want Medusa to have a moveset that shows off power, much like Ganondorf and Sephiroth. And Palutena's moveset does not do that.
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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Even so though, I'm not sure...[Medusa]...shares the same proportions...
After comparing the two, they probably are similar enough for it not to be weird. In terms of her sharing Palutena's moveset:
  • Autoretical would probably be fine with some dark projectiles, but you could also just give her a petrifying eye beam/projectile since that's kind of her thing.
    • Actually please do. A Medusa that couldn't turn you to stone would be the most baffling thing ever.
  • Medusa actually has an attack that could be similar to Explosive Flame in her boss fight, though it's more of a proximity mine than a spontaneous explosion originally.
  • Medusa straight up teleports during her boss fight, so Warp checks out.
  • Medusa isn't armed with a shield, so Counter/Reflect doesn't make as much sense here. They could get creative and have her use the laser walls as her shield for this Special Move if they so chose, though it wouldn't hurt to give her something different.
    • Even a Lightweight or Celestial Firework equivalent would be good here.
    • During her boss fight, Palutena makes a comment about her pushing Pit away, so maybe she could have something like Heavenly Light, but ya'know, dark.
  • Black Hole Laser would probably just be something involving her second phase.
  • Palutena's shield attacks would probably be similar scratch attacks since she doesn't have a shield, instead opting to scratch you.
  • Palutena's Forward, Down, and Up Tilt animations would probably be made more visious for Medusa.
  • Palutena's Up Air would at the very least need to be an assault with Medusa's snake hair instead of Palutena's Halo.
  • Palutena's Smash Attacks would have to be different as Medusa.
One thing I noticed after all of this is that Medusa is left handed. Or at least, she wields her staff in her left hand, so her animations would all have to be mirrored along the z-axis, or completely redone. The latter option kind of defeats the purpose.
 
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DarthEnderX

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I don't understand why NES matters more than other eras. It's something I often see, particularly in relation to playable characters (which, undoubtedly still misses many characters... though I know you didn't say playable characters, you said anything)
Seniority. Iconicness. Because it marks the start of Nintendo becoming a video game titan. And most of the iconic characters from that generation show up in every future generation, meaning they show up in the most generations.

Take your pick really.

If anything I want to see the DS generation get more love - our only current playable rep from that Gen is Lucario

so much potential - Phoenix Wright, Professor Layton, Neku Sakuraba
Phoenix Wright is a GBA character.
 
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GoodGrief741

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Which makes it useless as a descriptive term so who cares?
It's not useless, it's broad. That's why we have subgenres, to be more specific. But describing a game as being an action game already tells you quite a lot about what it is and what it isn't.

(Plus genre classification, even at its most generic stage, is very important in game design, both to know what you're aiming to do, and to be able to make a game that defies the rules of its genre)
I mean, if you want to take it that far, then technically- there are only three genres to which everything can be brought.
Good to know you didn't read the other half of my post in which I said the exact same thing.
 

Mushroomguy12

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You know, after what happened with NSO and classic system rereleases in general where NES always gets first pick every new generation while we have to wait years to get the others, I'm pretty sick of NES stuff. Yeah, it's the most important yadayada but they already have far more characters than most of the other console generations. Give me some diversity.



This is the newest chart I could find (before Byleth or any of FP2 was added, so Switch is empty).
Source
 

GilTheGreat19

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Bill Rizer with Lance as either an alt or an echo...


I'll take it
Just make Bill look like Arnold Schwarzenegger and Lance look like Sylvestor Stallone and we're good :4pacman:
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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It's not useless, it's broad. That's why we have subgenres, to be more specific.
It's too broad to be meaningful. If we're going with your system, that's why we have subgenres; to actually describe the type of games we're talking about beyond things that apply to pretty much all of them.

But describing a game as being an action game already tells you quite a lot about what it is and what it isn't.
All it says is that there is some sort of action going on. We could still be talking about anything from Devil May Cry to Paper Mario. It's too broad to mean anything.
 

Rie Sonomura

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I personally think CP11 will be the last character

we could have some non-character DLC for a little while like stages

maybe some non-spirit free stuff patched in that again isnt characters
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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I personally think CP11 will be the last character

we could have some non-character DLC for a little while like stages

maybe some non-spirit free stuff patched in that again isnt characters
I doubt it. I think the skeleton crew that sticks around for the game will just be the balancing team who might also make a few new Spirits.
 

CommanderZaktan

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You know, after what happened with NSO and classic system rereleases in general where NES always gets first pick every new generation while we have to wait years to get the others, I'm pretty sick of NES stuff. Yeah, it's the most important yadayada but they already have far more characters than most of the other console generations. Give me some diversity.



This is the newest chart I could find (before Byleth or any of FP2 was added, so Switch is empty).
Source
So Byleth, Min Min, and Pyra/Mythra will be at the Switch section. Steve and Sephiroth on other. and Kazuya on GW + Arcade.
 

Mushroomguy12

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So Byleth, Min Min, and Pyra/Mythra will be at the Switch section. Steve and Sephiroth on other. and Kazuya on GW + Arcade.
Yup. Switch has relatively better representation (in that it has something instead of nothing), even better than 3DS and Wii U, although all three pale in comparison to the rest. And it wouldn't change the fact that NES has more reps than all of SNES, N64, GCN, and Wii combined.
 
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ahemtoday

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And yet you tried to use Min Min and Pyra to prove outdated games on Switch can still be advertised in Smash.
I mean, what else do they prove?

Yeah, sure, they "were meant to be on the base roster", let's pretend I buy that. But they weren't on the base roster. If the reason to include them was gone, why revisit them? Why not just leave them to rot on the garbage pile?
 

GilTheGreat19

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You know, after what happened with NSO and classic system rereleases in general where NES always gets first pick every new generation while we have to wait years to get the others, I'm pretty sick of NES stuff. Yeah, it's the most important yadayada but they already have far more characters than most of the other console generations. Give me some diversity.



This is the newest chart I could find (before Byleth or any of FP2 was added, so Switch is empty).
Source
Poor DS gang
Lucario is all alone
 

Willbuysmash4mw

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On this whole topic of what constitutes "a while,"
--- I still cannot believe that people will try to read language that is said with such obscurity.
Because Sakurai also said “by the end of the year”.

When you combine “a while” and “by the end of the year” you don’t get September.

In the case of Smash Ultimate dlc reveals 3 months is literally the shortest time period you can wait between characters without a double reveal, even the double reveal of Hero and Banjo took 2 months.
 

Guynamednelson

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The poor Gameboy-Wii U eras will have to wait until they become the big nostalgia cows before they'll get another character unprompted by current activity.
Nintendo has always had issues realizing people can be nostalgic for more than the NES. At least the GBA was full of SNES ports, but look at how much they love to remind people of Mario's SMB1 sprite.
 
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