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Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

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True Blue Warrior

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Even if it did though the phrasing of "adopted by a group" is loose enough that it could apply to just using something as a mascot. It doesn't require an official declaration of anything.
Which is not something that applies to Spring Man as he just exists as a character, he was never anything special as confirmed by the man Yabuki himself, and he's certainly not used that much considering Min Min is the one playable in Smash which is way more important than being slightly more prominent in some ARMS trailer. I guess by this loose argument Min Min is the actual mascot since she's guaranteed to make the most crossover appearances of all ARMS characters.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Yes but if Nintendo is making all of the considerations as you are arguing, then Sakurai would not be. If you were correct, then the scenario would be:

Nintendo: "Add Min Min to Super Smash Bros."
Sakurai: "OK."

Sakurai would not have considered Ninjara nor asked Yabuki for his input.
Yes, he had no idea how ARMS worked so had to ask Yabuki here. Yabuki requested to Nintendo. He was saying he considered Ninjara in general, but that at most means that if Nintendo had give him "Any ARMS character", he could've chosen someone other than Min Min. That's not the case here. Because then he'd be choosing the characters, not Nintendo. There is no list or categories either. It's clear that it's fully Nintendo's choice. ...As he's said time and time again. His words really aren't trying to be vague at all. He's just trying to be accurate and languages are hard to translate, so it sounds somewhat vague to the idea of what he means.

Considering the purpose of a mascot is brand recognition and not good luck as far as companies are concerned, I don't think that definition applies here.

Even if it did though the phrasing of "adopted by a group" is loose enough that it could apply to just using something as a mascot. It doesn't require an official declaration of anything.

That's actually what we're referring to as well. He's using the wrong word in context. Video Game Mascots are way more specific than regular Mascots are. It has a ton of resources too within the link. Though just like Merriam-Webster, people can edit the website. Video Game Mascot is not an official definition term, hence it not being in there. To be fair, we are just using the wrong word too, since "Mascot" isn't the exact word that applies, so it's an understandable confusion.
 

3BitSaurus

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You know, sometmes I wonder if people back then questioned whether or not Ryu was the face of Street Fighter between SF1 and SF2, or if someone thought that Mai would overtake Terry as the face of Fatal Fury after the first one was released.

Min Min being more popular among the players than the cover art people and/or the 'most basic' characters is nothing unusual or unheard of, nor does it equate to a change in marketing. Most Popular Pick, Series Mascot and Protagonist are not always the same thing, especially in fighting games.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Though it's obvious at hell, seeing Red there for Rovio makes me happy
One thing to note is Ryu isn't listed as one of the Capcom ones. Albeit, I think it's only referring to Capcom Co LTD., since Capcom USA is a separate branch. But Ryu is most definitely one of the faces. Captain Commando was the original, with MegaMan retaking the position. It looks like this list isn't counting every previous one. Tom Nook was the first mascot of AC, after all. And so on.
 

GilTheGreat19

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I'm looking at that game mascots wikipedia page

Klonoa for Bamco? Interesting

Though his developer company went bankrupt, Aero the Acro-Bat looks cool

There's a lot more, sheeeeesh
 

True Blue Warrior

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Min Min being more popular among the players than the cover art people and/or the 'most basic' characters is nothing unusual or unheard of, nor does it equate to a change in marketing.
No, but the fact she was specifically chosen for one of the biggest crossover franchises in video game history in addition to the main man Yabuki straight out saying no one in ARMS is especially important over one another equates to Spring Man never being that important or a mascot in the first place. At least with Robin over Chrom and Rex being a no show, both Chrom' and Rex's status as the main characters of their games were reaffirmed whereas Spring Man was equated as being as much of a protagonist as every other playable character in ARMS.
 

Houndstooth

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Oh ho ho, you have no idea.


and neither do I.

Also I have been neglecting to mention this due to the nature of fan projects but a fan remaster of the first three TimeSplitters games is looking good. This is their latest update. They have four other previous updates with lots to show.


So yeah, I'm a happy boy right now.
That's awesome, then! I have never played the game myself, but I do have a few friends who enjoyed it back in the day.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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Which is not something that applies to Spring Man as he just exists as a character...
On the box art, on the original title screen, and prominently in the ads. That's more than "just existing". They're clearly using him as a promotional tool.

I guess by this loose argument Min Min is the actual mascot since she's guaranteed to make the most crossover appearances of all ARMS characters.
And maybe she will end up that way, but it's a bit too early to tell that.

I do think she will feature at least somewhat more prominently in a hypothetical ARMS 2, at least as much as Max Brass has in ARMS.

Yes, he had no idea how ARMS worked so had to ask Yabuki here.
Asking for input != not knowing how a game works. He does this for Pokémon as well.

The rest is getting into "interpreting semantics differently" territory, and nothing intelligent can come from that so I'm just going to move on.
 
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GilTheGreat19

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I'm also curious to see, on Monday, if a big name Western character/series character is going to get Mii'd.

I know for sure it's not necessarily a pattern, but we've gotten costumes like Altair, Vault Boy, etc, so who knows.
 

3BitSaurus

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No, but the fact she was specifically chosen for one of the biggest crossover franchises in video game history in addition to the main man Yabuki straight out saying no one in ARMS is especially important over one another equates to Spring Man never being that important or a mascot in the first place. At least with Robin over Chrom and Rex being a no show, both Chrom' and Rex's status as the main characters of their games were reaffirmed whereas Spring Man was equated as being as much of a protagonist as every other playable character in ARMS.
Then why is he in the cover art? Why is it his stage that came with Min Min? Why did Sakurai feel the need to adress the fact tgat he wasn't the pick? Why was his AT literally the first piece of ARMS content we got in the "biggest crossover in gaming history", far before Min Min made it in? And even when she did, why did her trailer, Final Smash and dedicated character art also feel the need to include him so prominently?

Going by that logic, you might as well be saying that Chun-Li and Heihachi aren't important in SF and Tekken, because we got Ken and Kazuya instead.

Smash isn't always this big deciding factor for what happens to other franchises. At most, it can give a second wind to dormant ones, but that's it.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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No, but the fact she was specifically chosen for one of the biggest crossover franchises in video game history in addition to the main man Yabuki straight out saying no one in ARMS is especially important over one another equates to Spring Man never being that important or a mascot in the first place. At least with Robin over Chrom and Rex being a no show, both Chrom' and Rex's status as the main characters of their games were reaffirmed whereas Spring Man was equated as being as much of a protagonist as every other playable character in ARMS.
No, what it says is that he liked Min Min more and that she's a fan favorite.

Smash doesn't mean anything for Mascot status on its own. Min Min could become the third mascot, but Spring Man and Ribbon Girl were always the faces.

You're missing his point. Nobody is important in the story mode. It's because it has a story mode that doesn't change per the character. Some characters are blatantly more important than others. Max Brass is also an important character, and Dr. Coyle has a big story role(for DLC only). These two are also not playable in Story mode, which is the point.

You're ignoring way too much context here. Just like the fact you're ignoring the entire reason why Spring Man had a Manga planned. Because he's an important part of the franchise. More than Ribbon Girl, mind you. He's the face of it, the current series' mascot. Min Min never once held that status. Her getting into Smash was favoritism, nothing to do with main character or mascot status. Whether or not the fans liking her also influenced Yabuki is impossible to say. But she and Spring Man are cited as his favorite two characters. He holds them both in high regards. Maybe that was the tipping point; one is a fan favorite so he requested her to Nintendo. Simple.

SMAASH! Puppy SMAASH! Puppy Yeah, I don't buy in any way that Sakurai was ever given a list of characters either. I'm not convinced. Let's just leave that be. I'm taking his statement very seriously, that Nintendo is fully choosing each character. Otherwise it would contradict his meaning. No, he didn't know how the story actually works. That's what I got from it, since that's the input he had issues with as is. But that's subjective, so I won't go further into it.

...Also, your quotes are broken, otherwise I'd just quote you. But agree to disagree, then?

Then why is he in the cover art? Why is it his stage that cane with Min Min? Why did Sakurai feel the need to adress the fact tgat he wasn't the pick? Why was his AT literally the first piece of ARMS content we got in the "biggest crossover in gaming history", far before Min Min made it in? And even when she did, why did her trailer, Final Smash and dedicated character art also feel the need to include him so prominently?

Going by that logic, you might as well be saying that Chun-Li and Heihachi aren't important in SF and Tekken, because we got Ken and Kazuya instead.

Smash isn't always this big deciding factor for what happens to other franchises. At most, it can give a second wind to dormant ones, but that's it.
To be fair, Ramen Bowl was not a good usable stage for Smash. Everything else? Yep. Spring Man is held in high regard without a single doubt. But it was obvious he(with somewhat Ribbon Girl) were the faces. Cover Arts aren't everything immediately, but they often play a role in marketing. Nobody else was marketed as the faces of the ARMS series at any point. The fact they advertised Spring Man as "possible" means that Nintendo also didn't care about his AT status.
 
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Inferno7

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After thinking it over, there is one AT I could maybe see getting in. The last time I thought about it, I didn't belive him possible, but both Sephiroth and Kazuya have reopened his doors. The character in question?
Zero (Mega Man) - SmashWiki, the Super Smash Bros. wiki

If we're getting any AT, it's him.
Holy moly I'd love to see this so damn much, literally would insta main
He's one of those huge glaring omissions from base game imo, but I don't see him happening before a new IP sadly.
 

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To be fair, Ramen Bowl was not a good usable stage for Smash. Everything else? Yep. Spring Man is held in high regard without a single doubt. But it was obvious he(with somewhat Ribbon Girl) were the faces. Cover Arts aren't everything immediately, but they often play a role in marketing. Nobody else was marketed as the faces of the ARMS series at any point. The fact they advertised Spring Man as "possible" means that Nintendo also didn't care about his AT status.
Yeah, pretty much. That kinda plays into the difference between mascots, popular picks and protagonists.

In SFV, Ryu barely plays a role in the story at all. You fight as him... what, three times? Chun-Li, Karin, Nash and Rashid, for example, all play more central roles in the story. None of that suddenly means Ryu is getting replaced.

KoF. Kyo hasn't been the 'de facto' protagonist for a while, but he's still on the cover of... pretty much every KoF game even after his tenure was over, if memory serves. And even then, some would argue that Iori is more popular than him.

Really, fighting games are full of examples like this. It's actually very rare for all three roles to coincide, as far as I remember.
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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To be fair, Ramen Bowl was not a good usable stage for Smash.
Well technically it was usable it's just...
1624744416184.png

...probably a good thing they didn't. lol

I personally was expecting Sky Arena since it's kind of the "Final Destination" of the game, and it's the only one suspended in the air.

I feel like I should say that this isn't meant to be a counterargument. I'm just...saying things.
 

DittoInDisguise

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After thinking it over, there is one AT I could maybe see getting in. The last time I thought about it, I didn't belive him possible, but both Sephiroth and Kazuya have reopened his doors. The character in question?
Zero (Mega Man) - SmashWiki, the Super Smash Bros. wiki

If we're getting any AT, it's him.
If we are getting any AT promo it would be Waluigi, who has some fan demand while also being a 1st party rep (allowing Nintendo to profit fully from CP11 and not have to do any negotiating with any other company) and can also be used to shill Mario Party Superstars in October. Throw in second chance/base game expansion theory, 3rd parties revealed at events, and Nintendo having a tendency to end things with a 1st party if you want to go full conspiracy/tin foil hat with it. I am admittedly, biased but I feel Waluigi would be the AT promo (if Nintendo actually went promoting any AT).

Zero (as well as Shadow) are more likely if Nintendo is willing to go third party, but I don't think they would promo a third party AT when they could just get a fully new IP
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Yeah, pretty much. That kinda plays into the difference between mascots, popular picks and protagonists.

In SFV, Ryu barely plays a role in the story at all. You fight as him... what, three times? Chun-Li, Karin, Nash and Rashid, for example, all play more central roles in the story. None of that suddenly means Ryu is getting replaced.

KoF. Kyo hasn't been the 'de facto' protagonist for a while, but he's still on the cover of... pretty much every KoF game even after his tenure was over, if memory serves. And even then, some would argue that Iori is more popular than him.

Really, fighting games are full of examples like this. It's actually very rare for all three roles to coincide, as far as I remember.
Kazuya can apply, in a twist.

Nightmare? Nope. Antagonist. He isn't actually a protagonist once he puts the armor on while as Siegfried, either. I know there's special arcade modes, etc., but Nightmare is an antagonist in the story.

Fulgore? Same thing. Never a Protag.

Scorpion? Well, he helps out in some movies, but he doesn't have his own starring role. Sub-Zero(Classic, not unmasked) did manage that part, though. If he was a mascot, well...
 

True Blue Warrior

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Going by that logic, you might as well be saying that Chun-Li and Heihachi aren't important in SF and Tekken, because we got Ken and Kazuya instead.
Chun Li and Heihachi are some of the most popular and iconic fighting game characters of all time with tons of crossover appearances. All Spring Man is is one guy from one game where no one is more important than anyone else (as confirmed by the creator) who couldn’t even make it into the Nintendo crossover as a playable character and has no real significant playable crossover history at all. Even Chrom and Fiora are more of a mascot character than he ever was despite the latter never being playable in a Smash game as they at least are playable in a Project X Zone title, a crossover series, which is more mascot material than Spring Man has.

Why did Sakurai feel the need to adress the fact tgat he wasn't the pick?
To address some misconception that he is more important than anyone else. Tons of fans also believe Nintendo connections were super important until Sakurai made that console wars comment.

Why was his AT literally the first piece of ARMS content we got in the "biggest crossover in gaming history", far before Min Min made it in?
Just like how Klaptrap being an AT means it is more important to Donkey Kong than Dixie, Cranky and Funky. AT status don’t mean anything in terms of series importance.

No, what it says is that he liked Min Min more and that she's a fan favorite.
That and no-one really matters that much in ARMS.
 
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warubyun

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Since we're somewhat on the topic, one particular notion in the AT debate I don't understand the rationale of, is that if an AT promotion were to happen, it must have happened prior to this point. I don't see what there is to suggest that it is somehow most likely that the pass will not end on an AT character getting promoted.
 

True Blue Warrior

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And even when she did, why did her trailer, Final Smash and dedicated character art also feel the need to include him so prominently?
Ninjara had more or equal the screen time Spring Man did. And Biff was just as prominent in that character art so that is not a good example at all.
 
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MattX20

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If we do get one more upgrade for the last character, it'll likely be a spirit character and not an AT. We've never had an AT and their upgrade occur in the same game. All 3 of the AT upgrade characters (Little Mac, Dark Samus, and Isabelle) were one-timers.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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Speaking of Green Hill Zone, how would everyone feel if it was replaced with an Emerald Hill Zone stage?

EDIT: I should probably state that said Emerald Hill Zone stage would be a different stage, not just "we called it Emerald Hill Zone because reasons".
 
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LiveStudioAudience

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I wouldn't mind Green Hill getting replaced, though I think over time Windy Hill Zone's inclusion is the one that really feels like its overdue for getting a more interesting level to be in its place. Something from Mania, Colors, or even Unleashed feels like it has more potential for fun aesthetics.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Ninjara had more or equal the screen time Spring Man did. And Biff was just as prominent in that character art so that is not a good example at all.
...Ninjara, the one who Sakurai has as a favorite, had the same screentime that Spring Man and Ribbon Girl did(actually, Spring Man and Ribbon Girl had more), but was close, because... the other two are the mascots. It's not that complicated. Biff was nowhere near as prominent.

That and no-one really matters that much in ARMS.
I just told you why that's incorrect.

You're still ignoring the context. He was talking about the playable characters are on equal ground in the story mode specifically. That's all that was meant. That's the only story that translates to who a main character is as well, for purposes of a game, since that's 100% story related. Of course nobody matters besides the two NPC's(Max Brass and Dr. Coyle). Nobody is a designated protagonist. It's impossible to matter.

To be a main character in a game, it requires you to be the only playable character or for there to be an actual story of sorts. ...ARMS has a story. It has no set main character(only Spring Man came close) as a protagonist. It makes sense why Yabuki said that. Because of strict context.
 

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Now that Kazuya is in Tekken it makes the feeling that a Mortal Kombat character is “missing” even more prominent.
Very true, but that might be one of the biggest pipe dreams of all. I've been feeling that way about RE lately too, and they both probably have similar issues.
 
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ahemtoday

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Speaking of Green Hill Zone, how would everyone feel if it was replaced with an Emerald Hill Zone stage?

EDIT: I should probably state that said Emerald Hill Zone stage would be a different stage, not just "we called it Emerald Hill Zone because reasons".
At this point, we would have gotten three Sonic stages, and they would all be of locations that are (or are clones of) Green Hill.

If we get a new Sonic stage, I want it to be something else.
 

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We've never had an AT and their upgrade occur in the same game.
Just like we've never seen a first-party DLC newcomer not be from the latest Fire Emblem until Min Min.

Just like we've never seen a third-party get two unique fighters until Sephiroth.

Just like we've never seen a series get a fighter after it got DLC Mii costumes until Kazuya.
 

SNEKeater

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After thinking it over, there is one AT I could maybe see getting in. The last time I thought about it, I didn't belive him possible, but both Sephiroth and Kazuya have reopened his doors. The character in question?
Zero (Mega Man) - SmashWiki, the Super Smash Bros. wiki

If we're getting any AT, it's him.
"So we finally get an AT promotion, but it's not Waluigi and instead, just another anime swordfighter?"

Just joking. Zero would be a dope addition and I think he is very likely for future games, but I see him more as a base roster newcomer for some reason.
A while ago I was thinking in doing and posting a Zero moveset, maybe I'll try to finish that and share it here.
 

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Just like we've never seen a first-party DLC newcomer not be from the latest Fire Emblem until Min Min.

Just like we've never seen a third-party get two unique fighters until Sephiroth.

Just like we've never seen a series get a fighter after it got DLC Mii costumes until Kazuya.
Exactly, lack of precedence isn’t confirmation of there being a rule. I’m not saying that we will get an AT upgrade in this game, but that specifically is not a good argument.
 

3BitSaurus

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Kazuya can apply, in a twist.

Nightmare? Nope. Antagonist. He isn't actually a protagonist once he puts the armor on while as Siegfried, either. I know there's special arcade modes, etc., but Nightmare is an antagonist in the story.

Fulgore? Same thing. Never a Protag.

Scorpion? Well, he helps out in some movies, but he doesn't have his own starring role. Sub-Zero(Classic, not unmasked) did manage that part, though. If he was a mascot, well...
Definitely not Ragna, either. It's been years since I touched BB, but I distinctly remember other characters being a bit more popular than him.

Maybe Sol? I haven't picked up Strive yet, but I've heard people saying that Ramlethal takes a more central role in the story? No idea if it's true, but otherwise I'd say he could qualify.

Chun Li and Heihachi are some of the most popular and iconic fighting game characters of all time with tons of crossover appearances.
And you know how they got there? By appearing in successful entries in their own series over and over. It's not something that was set in stone day 1.

address some misconception that he is more important than anyone else.
That "misconception" originated from the way they marketed the game.

The first look at ARMS literally featured just Spring Man and Ribbon Girl. Spring Man is the only character to have a 'semiclone'. He takes central position in almost every trailer. And so on.

Just like how Klaptrap being an AT means it is more important to Donkey Kong than Dixie, Cranky and Funky. AT status don’t mean anything in terms of series importance.
...by the point Klaptrap was added, DK had been in Smash for, what, 20 years?

Spring Man was literally ARMS' debut into Smash. And it was in a time when Sakurai felt like he couldn't include an ARMS rep. So the best way they could include content was a bunch of Spirits and an AT. And they chose Spring Man for that one role. There's a reason why.

Your comparison just doesn't work.

Ninjara had more or equal the screen time Spring Man did. And Biff was just as prominent in that character art so that is not a good example at all.
No he didn't. At best, he had as much as Ribbon Girl, Twintelle and Kid Cobra - who are also popular picks. Again, they started the whole bait and switch with Spring Man for a reason.

And Biff is not a good example, because he isn't even a playable character.
 
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Guynamednelson

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but I see him more as a base roster newcomer for some reason.
On one hand, there's enough MMX content not in the game for a challenger pack.

On the other, that could be because Smash's Mega Man is supposed to be pure fanservice for the classic series, and any subseries content is supposed to be a bonus, not deliberately lacking so DLC can expand it.
 

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Spring Man was literally ARMS' debut into Smash. And it was in a time when Sakurai felt like he couldn't include an ARMS rep. So the best way they could include content was a bunch of Spirits and an AT. And they chose Spring Man for that one role. Therd's a reason why.
And yet he wasn’t chosen as the main fighter. Being a fighter is a far bigger deal in terms of prominence than being a Spirit or AT as they get far more promotion in general and even merchandise (amiibo) than individual spirits and ATs and Min Min got that spot as playable and thus more promotion. Nothing else gets as much love as being playable in terms of Smash roles. If Spring Man had tons of non-Smash crossover playable appearance similar to Heihachi and Chun-Li, then the comparison to them might work, otherwise he is no mascot by definition.
 

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That is as far from the truth as you can get. Not only is Sol very much a central character in Strive's story, Ram's not even in it.
Alright. I stand corrected, then. Or, I guess, whoever was spreading that online lol.

For context, I really don't know jack about Strive's story yet. All I know is mechanics, and I haven't watched Koefficient's video yet because I want to dive in for myself.
 
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