Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Hold up; if anything, I think Steve’s initial sales may be chalked up to the reveal and release not having much breathing room.

I think revealing Steve a few months in advance might give more time for people to buy the corresponding DLC.

No. There was more than enough breathing room. Again, the sales are based more on when they can be purchased. Characters alone cannot be purchased early very often. Just the full pass. Though feel free to correct me on that. I can't legitimately remember.

Also, many were revealed/released together, and they still have good sales. Sephiroth, Min Min, Pyra/Mythra, Hero. I'm so far not seeing an actual correlation here. Do you have the chart again? I only remember a little of it.

 

[Shroob]

This is kinda a silly argument to have when we don't even know how well FP2 sold tbh.

 

[Perkilator]

This is kinda a silly argument to have when we don't even know how well FP2 sold tbh.

Yeah, I think we should drop it.

So anyways, Kazuya's presentation is 2 days from now. I made a thread for discussing it.

 

[Houndstooth]

Yeah like you and I both said, Alien Resurrection did it first but TimeSplitters is the spiritual successor to both Goldeneye and Perfect Dark where in fact they both also did twin stick controls when you switch to the 2.0 control style (Where you had to hold two controllers at once) and Free Radical was founded in 1999 so they probably started development of TimeSplitters right then and there so...

TimeSplitters wins by heritage!

lol Sounds good. I'm waiting on Halo: Infinite for my next twin shooter title. When does the next TimeSplitters come out?

Seriously, though, the difference between those old school controls and now are crazy. And, it is pretty funny to think that most found that to be the most difficult part of a game. To walk/strafe with one stick while the other turns the character's head around.

 

[Inferno7]

And of course, assist trophies and mii costumes aren’t getting in, if that wasn’t clear after Min Min it should’ve been crystal clear after Pythra
At this point it’s hard to say who exactly will be the last fighter but I feel like too many people are denying the reality that a lot of highly requested characters either lost their shot a while back or lost their shot once Nintendo’s E3 ended this year

People keep saying this while ignoring the fact Chrom has like 3 roles in the game (and he can essentially beat himself up with Robin's FS) and Sakurai confirmed he wanted Rex to come alongside Pyra/Mythra but couldn't make them work because of technical limitations.
Now before you say he just mentioned that so he wouldn't get crucified, it's his word against yours. Not to mention he never came up with the AT situation when he discussed about Spring Man.

 

[Quick Gaming (QG)]

People keep saying this while ignoring the fact Chrom has like 3 roles in the game (and he can essentially beat himself up with Robin's FS) and Sakurai confirmed he wanted Rex to come alongside Pyra/Mythra but couldn't make them work because of technical limitations.
Now before you say he just mentioned that so he wouldn't get crucified, it's his word against yours. Not to mention he never came up with the AT situation when he discussed about Spring Man.

Chrom’s an echo fighter, but no rebuttal for Rex, though it’s weird he’d include a Mii costume of him in the first fighter pass if he was planning on adding him later. Unless he wasn’t

 

[Deleted member]

People keep saying this while ignoring the fact Chrom has like 3 roles in the game (and he can essentially beat himself up with Robin's FS) and Sakurai confirmed he wanted Rex to come alongside Pyra/Mythra but couldn't make them work because of technical limitations.
Now before you say he just mentioned that so he wouldn't get crucified, it's his word against yours. Not to mention he never came up with the AT situation when he discussed about Spring Man.

Well, we've got one more fighter left until the AT and Mii Costume theory is proven right or not. Or would you still doubt it even at the end when not a single solitary character released defied the theory?

 

[Shroob]

We've had this same discussion a million times at this point tbh.


I don't think that Assist Trophies were ever off the table.

The question was if they were ever on to begin with.


Is it possible for Assists to be promoted? Full stop, 100% yes.


Will they? That's the part we don't know, and the more and more gets revealed, the less likely it seems. Yes, it would only take 1 character to disprove it, but at this point, literally everything's riding on CP11.

 

[Inferno7]

Well, we've got one more fighter left until the AT and Mii Costume theory is proven right or not. Or would you still doubt it even at the end when not a single solitary character released defied the theory?

That is a precedent, not a rule. Such things boil down to ''it hasn't happened yet, so it never will''.
I don't believe being an AT deconfirms, but am I expecting one? Not really sure, it depends if Sakurai or Nintendo want one of those characters at all, and given the fact they were made into ATs in the first place, it may not seem very likely. It's definitely a thing Sakurai would do to throw off speculation at the very end tho, so I wouldn't put it past him.

Chrom’s an echo fighter, but no rebuttal for Rex, though it’s weird he’d include a Mii costume of him in the first fighter pass if he was planning on adding him later. Unless he wasn’t

or maybe he didn't plan that far ahead and FP2 wasn't on the table yet
Base game spirits from XC2 and ARMS pretty much confirm this theory

 

[GilTheGreat19]

, but at this point, literally everything's riding on CP11.

and that’s the exciting part

 

[Shroob]

Anyway, considering we got the notice that the patch is coming soon, and we already have the "datamined" update slots, going all in on Kazuya dropping Monday "Some time after the presentation", probably in the evening.

 

[MattX20]

Anyway, considering we got the notice that the patch is coming soon, and we already have the "datamined" update slots, going all in on Kazuya dropping Monday "Some time after the presentation", probably in the evening.

That, and the spirits for Arthur and Sophia

 

[True Blue Warrior]

It doesn’t matter whether or not ATs were ever off the table for DLC or not as the vast majority of AT characters were never going to be DLC regardless of their status. It’s not as if someone like Spring Man is suddenly anymore likely to be in the base roster for the next game because being an item in this base game when the second round of DLC wasn’t even decided upon is such as arbitrary and nonsensical reason to be excluded from being considered for FP2.

 

[Shroob]

That, and the spirits for Arthur and Sophia

The most underrated part of the update, but one that'll soothe my collection ocd.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Chrom’s an echo fighter, but no rebuttal for Rex, though it’s weird he’d include a Mii costume of him in the first fighter pass if he was planning on adding him later. Unless he wasn’t

It's not weird. The costumes, especially first party(third party might be more awkward due to how licensing can go many ways), are fun things and Sakurai doesn't follow these kind of fan rules. Base game doesn't apply to all DLC, especially a second set.

Rex wasn't planned for playable in Pass 1, as Nintendo didn't suggest the character to him. Thus, he got a MIi costume because he was notable and someone he considered for base.

Pass 2 was greenlit later, and Pyra and Mythra are the core fighters anyway. Rex was just like Pokemon Trainer. Still a part of it, but didn't have his own numbers.

Chrom is just more proof Sakurai doesn't actually care if they have another role. It's just that the first DLC is going to be planned around the overall base game's finished character roles, so rarely a character will be in a special role and playable. It's not some guideline, it's "we already weren't going to have them playable" and the first set of DLC is easy to look at as continuing the base game. Keep in mind a Pass 2 wasn't originally going to happen.

This doesn't mean a MIi Costume or AT will be upgraded. It just means they are hardly as important as people think they are. We already pretty much know MIi Costumes aren't supposed to mean anything on their own. Nintendo, being the ones choosing the DLC, only care about business. They are just going to suggest interesting characters, often tied to business decisions and/or fan requests. Not cause "oh, hey, we see this guy has a role." That's really not where their thoughts would lie. It'd actually be really bad business to make some asinine rule like that. Now, what is realistic is Sakurai would've denied characters he already has a role for just for the First Pass alone. It probably happened, Sakurai did note nobody was denied for moveset reasons, but anybody else could've been denied in the First Pass for many reasons.

 

[3BitSaurus]

People keep saying this while ignoring the fact Chrom has like 3 roles in the game (and he can essentially beat himself up with Robin's FS) and Sakurai confirmed he wanted Rex to come alongside Pyra/Mythra but couldn't make them work because of technical limitations.
Now before you say he just mentioned that so he wouldn't get crucified, it's his word against yours. Not to mention he never came up with the AT situation when he discussed about Spring Man.

Considering it never came up, it's more likely it would have always been Min Min, regardless of whether or not we had the Spring Man AT in the base game.

Like... at this point most people don't believe in AT promotions not because they're ATs, but because it's hard to come up with characters among them who would warrant a promotion. Especially since most of them aren't tied to any Switch game.

We've had this same discussion a million times at this point tbh.


I don't think that Assist Trophies were ever off the table.

The question was if they were ever on to begin with.


Is it possible for Assists to be promoted? Full stop, 100% yes.


Will they? That's the part we don't know, and the more and more gets revealed, the less likely it seems. Yes, it would only take 1 character to disprove it, but at this point, literally everything's riding on CP11.

Pretty much. I don't think CP11 will be it, but at the same time I don't believe that the reason it might not happen is because these characters have prior roles.

Like, I can't really see Sakurai, the man who goes out of his way to put more content and cool **** in this game, denying a pick because "they already have another role". Not when he flat out said we would have got Rex if not for technical limitations.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

It doesn’t matter whether or not ATs were ever off the table for DLC or not as the vast majority of AT characters were never going to be DLC regardless of their status. It’s not as if someone like Spring Man is suddenly anymore likely to be in the base roster for the next game because being an item in this base game when the second round of DLC wasn’t even decided upon is such as arbitrary and nonsensical reason to be excluded from being considered for FP2.

As far as I know, the whole thing stems from attention that was brought to the attention to detail in Super Smash Bros. for 3Ds/Wii U (well that and being an Assist Trophy absolutely means that you're not in the base game). It's been established that the same character can't appear in both playable and non-playable form (except when they can, which does make the whole reasoning a bit tenuous) and people ran with that.

I personally still think that Spring Man was excluded due to his Assist Trophy status since there's literally no other reason for it and he by all means should have been the pick (meaning that Min Min over Spring Man is a pretty big deviation from the character selection norms).

EDIT: As for his chances in the next game, that would heavily depend on whether or not ARMS would get a second character. If it does, he has the best shot.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

lol Sounds good. I'm waiting on Halo: Infinite for my next twin shooter title. When does the next TimeSplitters come out?

Oh ho ho, you have no idea.

A new Deep Silver Studio is coming - Free Radical Design pic.twitter.com/N5qTTcZfsW

— Deep Silver (@deepsilver) May 20, 2021

and neither do I.

Also I have been neglecting to mention this due to the nature of fan projects but a fan remaster of the first three TimeSplitters games is looking good. This is their latest update. They have four other previous updates with lots to show.

So yeah, I'm a happy boy right now.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

As far as I know, the whole thing stems from attention that was brought to the attention to detail in Super Smash Bros. for 3Ds/Wii U (well that and being an Assist Trophy absolutely means that you're not in the base game). It's been established that the same character can't appear in both playable and non-playable form (except when they can, which does make the whole reasoning a bit tenuous) and people ran with that.

I personally still think that Spring Man was excluded due to his Assist Trophy status since there's literally no other reason for it and he by all means should have been the pick (meaning that Min Min over Spring Man is a pretty big deviation from the character selection norms).

...Spring Man wasn't on the table(for DLC), but only because Min Min was requested to Nintendo and they told Sakurai. Him being an AT didn't really change anything in context. Also, keep in mind many AT's are there because they couldn't be playable. ARMS was considered for a character but didn't meet the timing window. It's pretty clear Spring Man was the original option, since he's the AT and all. A lot of franchises are represented through an AT, and that's generally because they were the core best option for playable. Which obviously can change during DLC for many reasons. Special Requests by a Director, the franchise's own character roles changing, or just it wasn't an option for Sakurai alone(Nintendo is choosing the characters, not him). The only DLC he chose outright was PP, and that's it. The rest were "only if Nintendo said the character first", for one way to put it.

Sakurai's first response was "isn't Spring Man the main character". It's not his favorite, but he sure found it weird that Min Min was suggested. It's pretty clear he would've easily said yes to Spring Man if that was the character suggested(especially as it's Pass 2). Besides that, if Spring Man was meant for Pass 1 to begin with, he might've just scrapped the AT instead of anything else. Or kept both in, possibly. It depends. Likely the situation has yet to come up. Keeping in mind when he chooses DLC, it's usually later on during the base game's development. But that's cause Nintendo has sprung it up upon him but also he has noticed it was decided as a later thing. Sometimes it's as simple as Mewtwo taking too long so he has to convince Nintendo to let him do DLC. Sometimes Nintendo is the one who has to ordained(Ultimate).

It's complicated in that way, but we put too much emphasis on those fan rules. Why the fan rules exist is more patterns first. Logic is applied too, but admittedly gets ignored a lot.

 

[SpectreJordan]

I mean I grew up on Halo and it’s hard to ignore that Halo owned the FPS Genre between 2001 and 2010 almost a whole decade and it’s still going strong. One of the strongest FPS game franchises ever. That said I see Doom’s legacy, and since I love Doom, I’m much more inclined to say that Doom Slayer is a better choice. I won’t deny that I’d lose my **** over both of them but Master Chief would probably tug on my heart strings a lot more.

I feel largely the same. Halo & Doom are two of my favorite game franchises (Halo being #1 & Doom #7). Halo 3 is my favorite game. It’s the game that truly got me into gaming & led to gaming becoming my passion.

I’d also give Chief the advantage since he’s one of the most iconic characters in gaming. No one really cared about DoomGuy until the new games evolved him into Doom Slayer & gave him some personality. I’d be beyond happy if the Slayer gets in before Chief though, he’d be awesome.

I will say there’s a parallel with Doom/Halo to Dragon Quest/Final Fantasy. Doom/DQ are the grandfathers of the genre, as well as having stronger Nintendo ties. But Halo/Final Fantasy are the bigger franchises & have the more iconic character. Final Fantasy ended up getting in Smash before Dragon Quest.

Doom = Dragon Quest
Halo = Final Fantasy
Call of Duty = Pokemon
Half-Life = Persona

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I didn't grow up on Halo nor Doom, but I love both franchises. It has great characters and are two FPS giants. Both deserve content, and a playable character, imo.

 

[XorahnGaia]

Honestly, with the next game, I kinda hope the dev team ditches the traditional idea of AT and does something similar to what Fraymakers did with its assist characters: just make it so you select one of them during the preparation before the match and you can summon them at will to do some attack like the inactive members of your team in MvC.

Like I'm not naive enough to think that this will ease the pain of an assist character not making it in as an actual playable character, but if anything I think it will be more interesting as a mechanic, though they could still treat it as the other side of the roster (again, like Fraymakers is doing). This way it could also be feasible to add them via DLC so franchise added post-launch don't miss out on this kind of representation.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I personally still think that Spring Man was excluded due to his Assist Trophy status since there's literally no other reason for it

How about the fact he wasn't as important as everyone (including me) assumed because the guy who made ARMS literally stated everyone is a protagonist in ARMS and thus Spring Man was never "shafted by a less important character". You can't disregard his statement. Just because you are an AT it doesn't mean you are especially important, just look at Thwomp over Toad or Klaptrap over Dixie, Cranky and Funky.

And if anyone is the most likely character for a second representative of ARMS, it would be Ninjara by default since he is the only other character we know was considered.

 

[Ivander]

I can't see Assist characters in the style of MvC and whatnot coming into Smash when they are still having issues with Ice Climbers, not to mention some Assist Trophies not being used in some stages and whatnot. Like imagine 8 Ice Climbers on the field with all of them using their "Assist character".

 

[subterrestrial]

would they really save an assist trophy as paid dlc for last

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

...Spring Man wasn't on the table(for DLC), but only because Min Min was requested to Nintendo and they told Sakurai.

No concrete verdict on Spring Man's role in the selection process was stated (just "yeah it's OK because they're all protagonists"), and Sakurai had asked Yabuki after already having considered a few characters (at least Ninjara).

The only DLC he chose outright was PP, and that's it. The rest were "only if Nintendo said the character first", for one way to put it.

To a point, but Sakurai has gone on record as having made considerations for certain fighters, so Nintendo isn't quite selecting specific characters in all instances. When Nintendo gives him categories, Sakurai does choose within them.

Sakurai's first response was "isn't Spring Man the main character". It's not his favorite, but he sure found it weird that Min Min was suggested. It's pretty clear he would've easily said yes to Spring Man if that was the character suggested(especially as it's Pass 2).

No he brought that up because he expected us to find it weird. He never said that was his reaction.

How about the fact he wasn't as important as everyone (including me) assumed because the guy who made ARMS literally stated everyone is a protagonist in ARMS and thus Spring Man was never "shafted by a less important character". You can't disregard his statement.

How about the fact that Spring Man is still the game's mascot, which does make him more important than the others regardless of how many of them are protagonists in a game with no story.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

would they really save an assist trophy as paid dlc for last

Who knows. It's certainly more likely than a Sword & Shield 'Mon which doesn't say much (as that has no chance of being a DLC fighter for Fighter Pass 2).

How about the fact that Spring Man is still the game's mascot, which does make him more important than the others regardless of how many of them are protagonists in a game with no story.

He's not a mascot as ARMS has no officially confirmed mascot at this point.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

No concrete verdict on Spring Man was made, and Sakurai had asked Yabuki after already having considered a few characters (at least Ninjara).

That doesn't change that he was chosen to represent ARMS to the fullest. He was obviously the go to character, even for Sakurai, at that point. If an AT first represents a franchise, that's very often the case. But only if they were logical enough for playability. Like, no, Rathalos wasn't going to be playable. It was a Boss thing, that also worked as an AT.

To a point, but Sakurai has gone on record as having made considerations for certain fighters, so Nintendo isn't quite selecting specific characters in all instances. When Nintendo gives him categories, Sakurai does choose within them.

There is zero evidence of this. It's always been exact characters. There is no list or generalized things. Sakurai has made it 100% hard clear Nintendo chooses the exact characters.

No he brought that up because he expected us to find it weird. He never said that was his reaction.

Fair. I remembered that wrong. But it still shows he acknowledges Spring Man is very important anyway. He would've still said yes to him if Nintendo said so, which is one of my points.

How about the fact that Spring Man is still the game's mascot, which does make him more important than the others regardless of how many of them are protagonists in a game with no story.

Exactly. Ribbon Girl to a lesser degree. They were featured in Min Min's trailer too. Who had a manga planned? Spring Man. It's obvious he's held to high importance.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Exactly. Ribbon Girl to a lesser degree. They were featured in Min Min's trailer too. Who had a manga planned? Spring Man. It's obvious he's held to high importance.

That manga means nothing as it was cancelled, and ARMS has no mascots.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

He's not a mascot as ARMS has no officially confirmed mascot at this point.

He is a mascot because they've been using him as one...That's how mascots work.

There is zero evidence of this. It's always been exact characters. There is no list or generalized things. Sakurai has made it 100% hard clear Nintendo chooses the exact characters.

If Nintendo had picked a specific ARMS character instead of "add a character from ARMS" then he wouldn't have said that he had considered Ninjara because there wouldn't have been the consideration to make. That alone confirms that it isn't always a specific character request. EDIT: It also confirms that it wasn't a specific request from Nintendo in this case either.

 

[subterrestrial]

Who knows. It's certainly more likely than a Sword & Shield 'Mon which doesn't say much (as that has no chance of being a DLC fighter for Fighter Pass 2).

we're not getting a character from swsh, we're getting a character from LM3

 

[Technomage]

Ignore this; failed joke.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

we're not getting a character from swsh, we're getting a character from LM3

LM3?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

That manga means nothing as it was cancelled, and ARMS has no mascots.

Except it has been established that Spring Man and Ribbon Girl are the mascots. For a long time now.

The manga being cancelled is completely irrelevant to why it was even going to be done in the first place. They chose the big character/(one of the mascots) and worked on a full story for them. No other characters has that planned. That's cause they were never as important in the first place. The weak story only has a select few main characters that aren't a "protagonist you can use", and one of them is a story DLC. After Spring Man(held as a main character), you only really had Max Brass and Dr. Coyle with any real story importance.

You don't just plan a book starring a character unless they were highly important in their own right. Whether it's a key spin-off because they're breaking out into their own series, or because it's the main character and they wanted to emphasize it even more.

If Nintendo had picked a specific ARMS character instead of "add a character from ARMS" then he wouldn't have said that he had considered Ninjara because there wouldn't have been the consideration to make. That alone confirms that it isn't always a specific character request.

He can make considerations and never use them. That's not evidence of anything. That just means that he would want Ninjara in if it was plausible. Just like he wanted Min Min in. That doesn't mean they would've actually been chosen for base game(that was pretty damn clearly Spring Man without a doubt at the time).

No matter who he considers, he doesn't choose the characters anyway. Nintendo does. He's spoken countless times on characters that "aren't his personal choices", so he makes a lot of considerations in that particular context. They don't mean a thing in practice.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

He is a mascot because they've been using him as one...That's how mascots work.

Nope, by definition he is not one

:a person, animal, or object adopted by a group as a symbolic figure especially to bring them good luck

No one on the ARMS development team ever considered him officially as a mascot nor does most of the audience with Twintelle and Min Min getting more fan attention as an ARMS symbol.

Except it has been established that Spring Man and Ribbon Girl are the mascots.

There is no evidence of this and repeating this argument doesn't make it true. If Spring Man is so important, why did Yabuki say that everyone is exchangable in terms of protagonist status? That is not how mascot status works.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

would they really save an assist trophy as paid dlc for last

I mean, is there really a character you could see Nintendo wanting to promote from their assist trophy line up? The whole Waluigi thing only has attention in the west (Unless anyone can correct me there) and that's something I don't see Japanese Nintendo paying much attention to. Most assist trophies are either old news or not main characters so I can see why one would be skeptical of an assist trophy promotion.

 

[GilTheGreat19]

I think a Mii Costume would be much more fitting to rep it:

But given that it's the BEST selling FPS franchise ever, Call of Duty getting a "Soldier" Mii Costume or something would be neat.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

He can make considerations and never use them. That's not evidence of anything.

Yes but if Nintendo is making all of the considerations as you are arguing, then Sakurai would not be. If you were correct, then the scenario would be:

Nintendo: "Add Min Min to Super Smash Bros."
Sakurai: "OK."

Sakurai would not have considered Ninjara nor asked Yabuki for his input.

Nope, by definition he is not one

Considering the purpose of a mascot is brand recognition and not good luck as far as companies are concerned, I don't think that definition applies here.

Even if it did though the phrasing of "adopted by a group" is loose enough that it could apply to just using something as a mascot. It doesn't require an official declaration of anything.

 

[Quick Gaming (QG)]

LM3?

Not the guy that originally said that but Luigi’s Mansion 3. Some people have noticed that despite a lot of other first party Nintendo games receiving spirit events, Three Houses and Luigi’s Mansion 3 didn’t get such treatment. We saw what happened with Three Houses so….

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Not the guy that originally said that but Luigi’s Mansion 3. Some people have noticed that despite a lot of other first party Nintendo games receiving spirit events, Three Houses and Luigi’s Mansion 3 didn’t get such treatment. We saw what happened with Three Houses so….

Ah OK. The acronym didn't come to me on its own. No comment on the game's chances though...