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Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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It's true that most AT's are pretty low polygon count. Though some definitely are better than they used to be. Isaac got new attacks, and Spring Man actually acts similar to a fighter(as does Bomberman). Many also have health points, in order to make them feel closer to a fighter.

Nonetheless, they're pretty much nothing close to an actual fighter. Some of the stage hazards like Ridley are way closer, as he actually had multiple commands, including a proper throw. So basically more like Giga Bowser(though nowhere near as much data), who is pretty much the same as a full fighter bar a few things; can't be thrown, doesn't have victory animations or victory music, though I think he has a proper entrance as a boss like during the Melee Event 51.
 

N3ON

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Personally I think being of lower visual fidelity is being conflated with not being in the Smash style, because the only ATs I see not being in the Smash style are those that deliberately eschew it, like Andross and Akira and Sheriff and whatnot. I think if you retained the aesthetic of most ATs and just upped their detail to playable level, they'd fit right in.
 

Guynamednelson

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I think if you retained the aesthetic of most ATs and just upped their detail to playable level, they'd fit right in.
That's what they did with Isaac, Skull Kid, and Bomberman, and they look fine.

Fun fact: There are ports of all the fighter and AT models as VRChat player models. If you have the Valve Index's controllers, fighter models can track your finger movements, but ATs can not.
 

Freduardo

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At this point I would enjoy a pretty wild alternate smash game where only assist trophy characters were playable.

Hammer Bros. Vs. Midna Vs. Alucard Vs. Isaac
 

DarthEnderX

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But the reason why the DQV Hero wasn't added was apparently because his main weapon was a staff compared to a sword.
In his artwork, but not in the game itself.

His artwork shows him with an oak staff, which is a weapon you wouldn't use part level, like, 5. He can equip a lot more swords than staffs, and his strongest weapon is a sword.

Monster recruitment started in 5. 4 was the first game with party talk, and thus party members with actual personality. Though it's also considered the most "standard" DQ in that basically everything that's in it you can expect to see in all the others.
Except for it's crazy story structure. Which I still don't think any other game has done.
 
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N3ON

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I don't want to exacerbate any dogpiling but I am genuinely curious in why someone would be overly concerned about the dev team wasting their resources on a single AT. It's very altruistic and all but dev teams work on a myriad of things that don't even make it to the final product. Things a lot more resource-intensive than a single AT. If we get a promotion the AT wouldn't even be cut, probably just disabled when the character was in play. Plus they are getting paid to do this and would develop the character like any other, it's not like they have to pull extra hours rectifying their "mistake" of making them an AT beforehand.

If anyone who stands by this belief would care to expound, I'd be interested to hear the reasoning. Because it seems a little suspect to me.
 

Technomage

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If we get a promotion the AT wouldn't even be cut, probably just disabled when the character was in play.
I don't know; the Bomberman AT isn't disabled even with a white Bomberman Mii Fighter playable (though it looks slightly different, people could still mix up the two if they're on the stage simultaneously).
 

DarthEnderX

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There’s a few assist trophies I would love as playable characters. My top three are Zero, the Black Knight, and Guile but others would be cool like Dr. Wily, Skull Kid, Bomberman, and Alucard.
Fighters: Zero, Alucard, Bomberman
Echoes: Shadow, Black Knight
Bosses: Mother Brain, Dr. Wily, Andross(but not that version), Arceus
Miis: Shovel Knight

I don't know; the Bomberman AT isn't disabled even with a white Bomberman Mii Fighter playable (though it looks slightly different, people could still mix up the two if they're on the stage simultaneously).
That argument kinda disintegrates the second you remember you can already have 8 of the same character on screen at once...
 
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Guynamednelson

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I don't know; the Bomberman AT isn't disabled even with a white Bomberman Mii Fighter playable (though it looks slightly different, people could still mix up the two if they're on the stage simultaneously).
They don't want costumes to alter the gameplay in any way, shape or form. If it was a fighter, I'm sure the Bomberman AT would be treated like the Moon on Great Bay.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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It's probably cause Bomberman the AT is significantly different from Bomberman the Costume. Not just in polished models, but the movesets and animations differ enough.

A properly playable Bomberman has a lot more Bomb moves, etc. that it has more similarities to the AT.

It's also possible they don't "care" about the concept and wouldn't disable them anyway. We'd have to see it happen. We have enough precedence to know they could disable the AT, but the closest situation is that they don't with a playable costume, which is almost a playable character in context. Basically it could go either way with no evidence making it clear only one way is possible. When they disable an AT, it's based upon stage logic with the fighters. Moon and Alucard are good examples of this. It wouldn't really mean a thing for Knuckles despite his appearance on Green Hill Zone, and it's easier than doing extra work to make, say, Mecha Knuckles appear in his place. Disabling it is a lot less code.

(Also, to clarify what I mean by wasted development time; to replace an AT, you have to take a model and give it new animations, even if it's just reworking an old one. Remember how Echoes are easy? They aren't that easy. This is nearly the same concept, just overall less work. You have to take the Springtron model, and rig it to do every animation, also program the same damage, knockback, etc. and make sure no parts start glitching. If you want a good example of this, Meta Ridley's costume alone, which is the equivalent of this situation, was buggy till the game's release, due to extra parts. This is what changing a model is for an already used in-game model. You have to playtest it a lot to make sure nothing wrong happens. This in itself is a waste of time compared to disabling the AT. Making an AT playable is a completely different factor is it doesn't remove the AT in any way. A new game that does this of course is a different story. That character wasn't chosen to be an AT at the time, so they didn't sink any time into it, even if the time is just taking data and reusing it, while fixing up the model for the latest system, any bugtesting, etc. And that takes longer than disabling an AT under a specific circumstance anyway.

This is why I could see Springtron appear as an AT in the next game, if Spring Man was playable. I'd apply the same logic even if Spring Man was CP6. It's just plain easier on the development team. Now, keep in mind them making a new character is a ton of work by design anyway. Using an AT model to somewhat help it along is logical, since it has some animations to work with already. Sakurai definitely isn't going to say no cause "it's an AT". Yes, they had work put into them. Yes, they were chosen outright to represent the character cause playable didn't work. However, this wouldn't do anything to waste or hurt development time to make a second version of the character. That, and he did this already in 4 with Conductor Link, an alternate version of Toon Link who only shows up while no Link is playable. In other words, to him, some kind of NPC role doesn't really affect choices alone, since it's far more than that. For instance, say Bomberman was considered for DLC. Sakurai would have to still figure out a plausible moveset in his head, and get permission from Konami. He may be a Mii Costume as a compromise cause he couldn't figure out a moveset he's satisfied with, but still wanted to throw fans a bone. That's also part of why Mii Costumes exist too. Having a good model also helped, since it's clear the Bomberman AT and Mii Costume are a similar model).

I hope I explained that well enough. I feel like I somewhat lost a point along the way too. XD
 

Ivander

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In his artwork, but not in the game itself.

His artwork shows him with an oak staff, which is a weapon you wouldn't use part level, like, 5. He can equip a lot more swords than staffs, and his strongest weapon is a sword.
Not sure why they seem to favor the staff then, when DQV's Hero keeps it for the Hero's Final Smash.


Anyway, don't know if it might also be mandela effect, since I thought Sakurai talked about DQV's Hero and mentioned the staff when talking about the Hero in Smash. Can somebody find the Sakurai interview about Hero in Smash?
 

N3ON

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I don't know; the Bomberman AT isn't disabled even with a white Bomberman Mii Fighter playable (though it looks slightly different, people could still mix up the two if they're on the stage simultaneously).
Costumes are treated as an extension of the Mii fighter, not the character depicted in the costume. It's just the Mii dressing up as them.

For instance, you can play in the Knuckles costume on Green Hill Zone and nothing will change, because it's just a costume. But you can't spawn the Knuckles AT, because he's in the background.

It's not entirely rigid, but I'm thinking that's how they'd treat a promotion, given there's already precedent of disabling ATs.
 

perfectchaos83

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I don't want to exacerbate any dogpiling but I am genuinely curious in why someone would be overly concerned about the dev team wasting their resources on a single AT. It's very altruistic and all but dev teams work on a myriad of things that don't even make it to the final product. Things a lot more resource-intensive than a single AT. If we get a promotion the AT wouldn't even be cut, probably just disabled when the character was in play. Plus they are getting paid to do this and would develop the character like any other, it's not like they have to pull extra hours rectifying their "mistake" of making them an AT beforehand.

If anyone who stands by this belief would care to expound, I'd be interested to hear the reasoning. Because it seems a little suspect to me.
Even Smash has a great example of, and it's the Ice Climbers in Smash 3DS/Wii U. They likely spent a great deal trying to get them to work but couldn't manage it in the end.
 

Gengar84

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I don’t know why that’s even an issue in the first place. You can have have eight Ganondorfs all fighting each other and that’s totally fine. Same goes with playable Chrom while he is still a part of Robin’s final Smash. I don’t think a playable Zero and a Zero assist trophy in the same match is really any worse.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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I don’t know why that’s even an issue in the first place. You can have have eight Ganondorfs all fighting each other and that’s totally fine. Same goes with playable Chrom while he is still a part of Robin’s final Smash. I don’t think a playable Zero and a Zero assist trophy in the same match is really any worse.
Chrom is a bad example. The Final Smash barely shows up for more than a few seconds and is pretty hard to confuse with the actual playable character. It shouldn't really be brought up cause almost every AT lasts wayyyyyyyy longer than it. Hell, Spring Man lasts way longer and looks significantly more like a playable character than the FS.

The Ganondorf point is way better. But to be fair, the costumes are so awful, you can barely tell which Ganondorf you're playing as anyway. This has been an issue for a while, as doubles play or even singles has costume issues for some. Some can't even play their favorite costume for tournament reasons(Sonic has few costumes where he looks somewhat different, same as others like Pac-Man. Generally Cloud has to have one Advent Children costume used with the other regular, and so on). That, and Ganondorf wouldn't be an example of someone who could be an AT. You'd be better off mentioning Charizard, though ironically they did use the Charizard sprite first, not the model, so you have another way to do so. Joking aside, it's not an issue to have the AT there. But if it is one for whatever reason, it's hyper easy to disable. It's more or less a mindset that Sakurai will have and stick to. But it won't change anything in gameplay generally.

Players can confuse the AT slightly with the playable character, but that depends entirely on the character, not the concept alone. I noted Spring Man up above. He has a pretty big amount of attacks and abilities and lasts a very long time(as do others. Sukapon is another example). The best thing they have is a fairly tiny little icon to determine what player it is, which to me, resolves the issue. So in the end, there isn't an actual issue with it in practice, meaning it entirely depends upon what Sakurai thinks is the best way to do it.
 

SharkLord

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Not sure why they seem to favor the staff then, when DQV's Hero keeps it for the Hero's Final Smash.


Anyway, don't know if it might also be mandela effect, since I thought Sakurai talked about DQV's Hero and mentioned the staff when talking about the Hero in Smash. Can somebody find the Sakurai interview about Hero in Smash?
Maybe it was the DQ11S Twitter presentation? I'm pretty sure the DQV Hero was considered and scrapped as well, but it's a bit tricky finding that interview.
 

Slime Master

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Not sure why they seem to favor the staff then, when DQV's Hero keeps it for the Hero's Final Smash.


Anyway, don't know if it might also be mandela effect, since I thought Sakurai talked about DQV's Hero and mentioned the staff when talking about the Hero in Smash. Can somebody find the Sakurai interview about Hero in Smash?
Maybe it was the DQ11S Twitter presentation? I'm pretty sure the DQV Hero was considered and scrapped as well, but it's a bit tricky finding that interview.
Yes, it was
I've seen other sources that have said a bit more than this, but it gives the gist.
 

SNEKeater

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Found this on Era, seemed fun so I'm sharing it here


I don't know how reliable is this or how exactly they took the data for this, so maybe this is kinda iffy (I'd say so because seeing the Ice Climbers so ****ing high is just hilarious), but it's still kinda curious. I'll put the images within the spoiler because they're very large




In the link there are more images and funny percentage comparisons.
 
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Paraster

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Found this on Era, seemed fun so I'm sharing it here


I don't know how reliable is this or how exactly they took the data for this, so maybe this is kinda iffy (I'd say so because seeing the Ice Climbers so ****ing high is just hilarious), but it's still kinda curious.
"We surveyed nearly 600 millennials"

Can you say "low sample size"?
 

DarthEnderX

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Not sure why they seem to favor the staff then, when DQV's Hero keeps it for the Hero's Final Smash.
Because that's how Toriyama originally drew him, and Enix is anal about not changing things.

Anyway, don't know if it might also be mandela effect, since I thought Sakurai talked about DQV's Hero and mentioned the staff when talking about the Hero in Smash. Can somebody find the Sakurai interview about Hero in Smash?
No, he definitely said something to that effect. I'm just saying, it's not very representative to how he plays in game, and he could easily fit the sword+shield template if they wanted.

I don’t know why that’s even an issue in the first place. You can have have eight Ganondorfs all fighting each other and that’s totally fine. Same goes with playable Chrom while he is still a part of Robin’s final Smash. I don’t think a playable Zero and a Zero assist trophy in the same match is really any worse.
This. I don't understand why 8 Ganondorfs on screen at once is fine, but 9 would be too confusing.

I don't know how reliable is this or how exactly they took the data for this, so maybe this is kinda iffy (I'd say so because seeing the Ice Climbers so ****ing high is just hilarious), but it's still kinda curious. I'll put the images within the spoiler because they're very large
Ice Climbers is only there BECAUSE of Smash.
 
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Lionfranky

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Found this on Era, seemed fun so I'm sharing it here


I don't know how reliable is this or how exactly they took the data for this, so maybe this is kinda iffy (I'd say so because seeing the Ice Climbers so ****ing high is just hilarious), but it's still kinda curious. I'll put the images within the spoiler because they're very large




In the link there are more images and funny percentage comparisons.
Low sample size. There's no way Spyro would be ranked higher than Master Chief. Hell, I would put Chief above several characters above his rank in this list.
Ice Climbers above Sephiroth and Sora? Yeah lol
 

N3ON

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Found this on Era, seemed fun so I'm sharing it here


I don't know how reliable is this or how exactly they took the data for this, so maybe this is kinda iffy (I'd say so because seeing the Ice Climbers so ****ing high is just hilarious), but it's still kinda curious. I'll put the images within the spoiler because they're very large




In the link there are more images and funny percentage comparisons.
How tf can only 84% of the American adults in this sample recognize the current president
 

spicynun

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Found this on Era, seemed fun so I'm sharing it here


I don't know how reliable is this or how exactly they took the data for this, so maybe this is kinda iffy (I'd say so because seeing the Ice Climbers so ****ing high is just hilarious), but it's still kinda curious. I'll put the images within the spoiler because they're very large




In the link there are more images and funny percentage comparisons.
Banjo-Kazooie is more recognizable than Shawn Mendes. That's all I needed to know.
 

SharkLord

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Found this on Era, seemed fun so I'm sharing it here


I don't know how reliable is this or how exactly they took the data for this, so maybe this is kinda iffy (I'd say so because seeing the Ice Climbers so ****ing high is just hilarious), but it's still kinda curious. I'll put the images within the spoiler because they're very large




In the link there are more images and funny percentage comparisons.
...Who the heck is Marcus Fenix? Should I know this guy?

Also:
"We surveyed nearly 600 millennials"

Can you say "low sample size"?
Low sample size.
Like clockwork
 

Laniv

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Found this on Era, seemed fun so I'm sharing it here


I don't know how reliable is this or how exactly they took the data for this, so maybe this is kinda iffy (I'd say so because seeing the Ice Climbers so ****ing high is just hilarious), but it's still kinda curious. I'll put the images within the spoiler because they're very large




In the link there are more images and funny percentage comparisons.
Even if the sample size is a little iffy, it's nice to see King K. Rool making the list. Odd how he's above Sarah Kerrigan but not on the first chart...
 

SharkLord

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I believe he's the main character of Gears of War. The one with the bandanna hat.
The main man of Gears of War... like THE archetypal 3rd person shooter.
Yeah, that makes sense. All I know is scrimblos from my childhood and JRPGs from recent years; I don't really look into shooters that much so me not knowing this stuff doesn't surprise me.

...At least, I don't think it should surprise me...
 

rychu_supadude

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How tf can only 84% of the American adults in this sample recognize the current president
The text makes it pretty clear that Trump was the president at the time of the survey. They also excluded people who don't play games or fit into the other fandoms, it's designed for entertainment rather than an unbiased informative sample.

Whoever put the chart together accidentally colour-coded Kerrigan into the "civil rights leaders" category, so that's the funniest takeaway of all.
 

SharkLord

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Were you Nintendo this entire time, and you never told us?
I mean that pretty much sums up about 75% of my childhood gaming years, with the other 25% being Sonic and Flash games. As I started to grow older O veered towards JRPGs and metroidvanias... Which, between Fire Emblem, Xenoblade, and Metroid itself, make up the bulk of Nintendo's major "mature" games anyways.

So you're really not that far off the mark :drshrug:
 

Ivander

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Were you Nintendo this entire time, and you never told us?
I wouldn't be surprised if some people veered away from shooters during the late 2000s when there were so frickin' many shooter games and it felt like only Nintendo was not focused on shooters aside from Metroid Prime. Like there were some great ones, but good lord, there were so many of them trying to get that Call of Duty/FPS money.
 
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