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Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

N3ON

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I wonder, if Bandai Namco was approached for Smash talks with Nintendo this time around, which franchise would they prioritize? Would it be a series they've spent extra money emphasizing on the Switch, or one which doesn't yet have solid footing on the platform? I wonder what their preferences would be. They would have to have some, not that Nintendo would care.
Well if you're going to ask a Namco employee they'd probably give you a character they'd just like to see in Smash, but if you ask "Namco", they'd probably want Heihachi or a Tales of Arise character or someone that has current utility value.
 

Gnateb

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Well if you're going to ask a Namco employee they'd probably give you a character they'd just like to see in Smash, but if you ask "Namco", they'd probably want Heihachi or a Tales of Arise character or someone that has current utility value.
I'm talking about whoever at Bandai Namco would converse with Nintendo about Smash. What would be in their best interest business-wise, and stuff like that.
 

N3ON

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I'm talking about whoever at Bandai Namco would converse with Nintendo about Smash. What would be in their best interest business-wise, and stuff like that.
Right, the second part. A character with utility value, probably in the short-term, probably from a bigger title. So probably someone from Tekken, or a Tales of Arise character. The priorities of the company are, like you said, business-facing, so I don't foresee they'd choose some character currently not being touted, were it up to them. Luckily Nintendo doesn't have a vested interest in that stuff, so they can look at things just in terms of overall impact and popularity.
 

RileyXY1

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Anyway, I still think Crash Bandicoot is going to be our next fighter for E3 since we usually have one character that appeals to the western audience. Then I think Sora is going to be our final character. No actual reason, I just thinking he's going to barely sneak in.

As for Cortez, I'd be happy to get another TimeSplitters game or even some re-releases.

That is all. You can go back to whatever you guys are talking about.
I don't really see them adding in any new companies at this point.
 

RileyXY1

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I think that this Pass will be mostly centered around expanding representation of series already in Ultimate, as opposed to FP1 which mostly focused on adding new IPs to Smash. I think that it's possible that the big E3 character is a first party.
 

Yoshi-Thomas

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I think that this Pass will be mostly centered around expanding representation of series already in Ultimate, as opposed to FP1 which mostly focused on adding new IPs to Smash. I think that it's possible that the big E3 character is a first party.
That's a pretty rare statement, I dig it.
Who do you think would be worthy of E3 then if it's a Nintendo character?
 

SharkLord

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That's a pretty rare statement, I dig it.
Who do you think would be worthy of E3 then if it's a Nintendo character?
I think that depends on if they're the main attraction or not. We've had characters at E3 that, while pretty popular, aren't what we'd usually deem E3-worthy; Guys like Palutena, Roy, and arguably Hero. That being said, they weren't the main attractions; They had the Miis (And maybe Pac-Man, but he was in a weird situation), Ryu, and Banjo. If we get a first-party who isn't meant to be the big reveal, I think there's a lot more freedom with who it could be.
 

Pillow

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Anyway, I still think Crash Bandicoot is going to be our next fighter for E3 since we usually have one character that appeals to the western audience. Then I think Sora is going to be our final character. No actual reason, I just thinking he's going to barely sneak in.

As for Cortez, I'd be happy to get another TimeSplitters game or even some re-releases.

That is all. You can go back to whatever you guys are talking about.
Not saying we won't get Crash, but wouldn't the "character that appeals to Western audiences" from FP2 be Steve? Lots of signs point towards Steve being intended for the 2020 E3 Reveal, and just because Covid messed up the release schedule for characters doesn't mean they could change the characters following Steve to suddenly include another Western favored pick.
 

Evil Trapezium

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Not saying we won't get Crash, but wouldn't the "character that appeals to Western audiences" from FP2 be Steve? Lots of signs point towards Steve being intended for the 2020 E3 Reveal, and just because Covid messed up the release schedule for characters doesn't mean they could change the characters following Steve to suddenly include another Western favored pick.
Fighter Pass 2 is meant to go on for two years so I would figure they would save two western picks for each E3 so while Steve could have theoretically been for 2020's E3, Crash Bandicoot or some other Western character would be saved for this years E3.
 

Pillow

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Fighter Pass 2 is meant to go on for two years so I would figure they would save two western picks for each E3 so while Steve could have theoretically been for 2020's E3, Crash Bandicoot or some other Western character would be saved for this years E3.
If Crash is coming it's most likely at E3, I'm just not so sure they put that much thought into pleasing Western audiences when initially picking characters for the pass. E3 is synonymous with big name characters, but not necessarily Western ones. Yeah, Crash's chances are good and the timing fits, I'm just disputing the notion that E3 must come with a Western character.
 

SpectreJordan

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If Crash is coming it's most likely at E3, I'm just not so sure they put that much thought into pleasing Western audiences when initially picking characters for the pass. E3 is synonymous with big name characters, but not necessarily Western ones. Yeah, Crash's chances are good and the timing fits, I'm just disputing the notion that E3 must come with a Western character.
Tbf, there’s not a lot of big name Japanese characters left especially with Capcom seemingly out of the running. The only Japanese characters that I could think make a big splash at E3 would be a Sonic character, 2B or Kiryu.
 

LiveStudioAudience

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Its worth noting with Banjo-Kazooie that there were some unique factors with him beyond the happenstance of him being a Western oriented character. A long time request among the hardcore crowd, likely part of the negotiations with Steve, and possibly revealed when they were because there was a more Japan favored character being shown off at the same time.

Essentially a more North American/European popular fighter may not be in the cards because the last two characters are generally worldwide favorites that, for lack of a better descriptor, don't need to be balanced in terms of regional popularity. Get a combination of Dante, Chun Li, Chosen Undead, Dovahkiin, Gen 8 Pokémon, etc and there's a fairly broad level of hype for them.
 
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Pillow

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Tbf, there’s not a lot of big name Japanese characters left especially with Capcom seemingly out of the running. The only Japanese characters that I could think make a big splash at E3 would be a Sonic character, 2B or Kiryu.
I personally think Dark Souls has a good chance of showing up at E3. There's also characters like Lara Croft who have Japanese origins but are hugely recognizable worldwide, and while speculation has left a lot of us ruling out stuff like Capcom characters and Ryu Hayabusa, it's not like there's been any official statement to deconfirm them and they'd still technically make sense as big E3 reveals.

Honestly, you could say there's just not that many "likely" picks remaining in general. The only really viable Western characters basically boils down to Crash, Master Chief, and Dragonborn.
 
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True Blue Warrior

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You know there is literally nothing saying any of the last two characters have to be “huge”, right? For all we know, they could just reveal Sol Badguy and Estelle Bright there and call it a day and it would still make sense.

A long time request among the hardcore crowd,
They’re not merely “a long time request among the hardcore crowd” but characters that were generally huge requests within the context of the 1.8 million+ strong fanbase (that number comes from the ballot votes). If they were merely hardcore requests, they wouldn’t be playable in the first place.
 
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Gnateb

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I personally think Dark Souls has a good chance of showing up at E3. There's also characters like Lara Croft who have Japanese origins but are hugely recognizable worldwide, and while speculation has left a lot of us ruling out stuff like Capcom characters and Ryu Hayabusa, it's not like there's been any official statement to deconfirm them and they'd still technically make sense as big E3 reveals.

Honestly, you could say there's just not that many "likely" picks remaining in general. The only really viable Western characters basically boils down to Crash, Master Chief, and Dragonborn.
I very much agree. Bandai Namco chose Dark Souls to have their only Amiibo ever, and that could be a sign as to how much they and Nintendo care about the IP. I have a feeling that designing, manufacturing, distributing, and programming Amiibo is an expensive endeavor for a third party to take on. Yet, the Solaire Amiibo is kinda useless still. Only compatible with one game, and all ya get is a gesture that's obtainable through normal play. It's not even spirit compatible, which I think was possible.
 
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N3ON

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I agree in theory that a western character could show up whenever. I just think, being still in the nascent stages of western characters on the roster, if they choose another, they're going to choose from among the top of the heap, whether in terms of popularity or prevalence. That's what typically happens. The first Nintendo characters were the apex of the company. The first third-parties were among the biggest names in gaming.

I just don't think they would go for some mid-tier western character, were we to get a western character. I mean, unless they were the most popular Smash request, but we don't really have another Banjo on our hands. I think it would be someone very big, partly due to the trend of descending inclusions, and partly due to the increased effort expended. Someone like Chief, or Crash or Lara Croft (though her situation is mixed... given they can now go through Square). And to that end, all of those characters make sense to be a big E3 megaton.

We're just not at the point yet where smaller but notable western names, like, idk, like Big Daddy seem particularly likely. We're still at the top.

So I agree that in theory, a western character doesn't need to be tethered to a western event like E3. I just think any character they would choose would be E3 material. And given there are only two characters left, and at least one will show up at E3, it's sort of a case of putting two and two together here. If there is still another western character in the cards, ofc.
 

LiveStudioAudience

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They’re not merely “a long time request among the hardcore crowd” but characters that were generally huge requests within the context of the 1.8 million+ strong fanbase(that number comes from the ballot votes). If they were merely hardcore requests, they wouldn’t be playable in the first place.
Yes, but the critical point being made is that Banjo-Kazooie had various unique circumstances to them beyond simply being a character Western fans specifically would like. Part of it was the ballot certainly, but it was also the characters' strong association with Nintendo and the third party company that owned them being fairly cooperative for their inclusion. In many ways someone like Crash is in a similar situation especially with the popularity in American and Europe, yet there are also a number of x factors that are/could be a problem, the nature of Activision itself being one of them.
 

Pillow

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I very much agree. Bandai Namco chose Dark Souls to have their only Amiibo ever, and that could be a sign as to how much they and Nintendo care about the IP. I have a feeling that designing, manufacturing, distributing, and programming Amiibo is an expensive endeavor for a third party to take on. Yet, the Solaire Amiibo is kinda useless still. Only compatible with one game, and all ya get is a gesture that's obtainable through normal play. It's not even spirit compatible, which I think was possible.
Well, I'm not sure exactly how much Amiibo production is related to Smash specifically (I'm just very unfamiliar with Amiibos in general), I just feel like Dark Souls is the type of series that "makes sense" in Smash as it's been one of the most prolific series to emerge within the last decade of gaming. My only qualms about DS is that "Chosen Undead" sounds kinda silly as a character name, but so does "Hero" and that the fighting style of tumble around, stab and drink potion, doesn't exactly make for an exciting fighting game character but Sakurai made a literal plant work out.
 

Evil Trapezium

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If Crash is coming it's most likely at E3, I'm just not so sure they put that much thought into pleasing Western audiences when initially picking characters for the pass. E3 is synonymous with big name characters, but not necessarily Western ones. Yeah, Crash's chances are good and the timing fits, I'm just disputing the notion that E3 must come with a Western character.
I mean sure, a western character doesn't necessarily have to be at E3 but one thing that seems consistent enough is that they choose a character that will have some effect on the western crowd at E3. Hero falls under that category since during that time, there was a massive push from Nintendo to advertise Dragon Quest to western audiences with Dragon Quest 11 coming to the Switch and adding the Dragon Quest 8 hero.

Other than that I just think they would show a western character for a western event. It just seems convenient.
 

Wigglerman

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I really can't imagine the Chosen Undead being a particularly engaging character for Smash when a lot of their kit would either be broken or just goofy. If their rolls got more invul to them or had some mechanic to 'perfect roll' that'd make roll spam just that more annoying when fighting them. Any character with good healing potential is always infuriating in a fighting game. Hero's is at least limited uses per stock and Wii-Fit's is miniscule (As is Wario/Kirby's).

Characters like Elena in SF had their heal locked behind a super/ultra but the heal was pretty good and charged fairly quick. Just erasing opponents progress is a bad option for fighting games. So if Chosen Undead had Estus (Even if limited use per stock Estus) it would have to heal very small amounts or be so ungodly slow that using it is rarely an option (And thus making a move in their kit kinda useless.
 

Gnateb

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Well, I'm not sure exactly how much Amiibo production is related to Smash specifically (I'm just very unfamiliar with Amiibos in general), I just feel like Dark Souls is the type of series that "makes sense" in Smash as it's been one of the most prolific series to emerge within the last decade of gaming. My only qualms about DS is that "Chosen Undead" sounds kinda silly as a character name, but so does "Hero" and that the fighting style of tumble around, stab and drink potion, doesn't exactly make for an exciting fighting game character but Sakurai made a literal plant work out.
I see what you're saying about Chosen Undead as a name, it might be kind of awkward.

The reason I'm bringing up the Amiibo in regards to Smash has to do with what I was talking about earlier; "what does Bamco seem to prioritize on the Switch?". It seems like out of all their other IPs on the platform, they've put an emphasis on Dark Souls. It's their only series to get an Amiibo, they had to license another company to develop the Switch Port, and they made a big deal out of it's reveal with a CG trailer at the very end of a direct.

Third parties choose which Amiibo they want to make, and manufacture/design/distribute it themselves. Plus, Nintendo has to agree to license it. I just find it interesting that Bamco and Nintendo opted to go through so much work and expense over Dark Souls, instead of all their other properties. The Amiibo, like I said earlier, is pretty useless also.
 
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Technomage

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I really can't imagine the Chosen Undead being a particularly engaging character for Smash when a lot of their kit would either be broken or just goofy. If their rolls got more invul to them or had some mechanic to 'perfect roll' that'd make roll spam just that more annoying when fighting them. Any character with good healing potential is always infuriating in a fighting game. Hero's is at least limited uses per stock and Wii-Fit's is miniscule (As is Wario/Kirby's).

Characters like Elena in SF had their heal locked behind a super/ultra but the heal was pretty good and charged fairly quick. Just erasing opponents progress is a bad option for fighting games. So if Chosen Undead had Estus (Even if limited use per stock Estus) it would have to heal very small amounts or be so ungodly slow that using it is rarely an option (And thus making a move in their kit kinda useless.
I do agree with healing being broken in fighting games; after all, healing spirits make fights a lot easier.
 

Pillow

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I mean sure, a western character doesn't necessarily have to be at E3 but one thing that seems consistent enough is that they choose a character that will have some effect on the western crowd at E3. Hero falls under that category since during that time, there was a massive push from Nintendo to advertise Dragon Quest to western audiences with Dragon Quest 11 coming to the Switch and adding the Dragon Quest 8 hero.

Other than that I just think they would show a western character for a western event. It just seems convenient.
You could stretch your logic for DQ to apply to literally any character except for maybe some unrepentant weeb trash like Reimu. Every game wants to be popular with western audiences, because western audiences are the bulk of the gaming market.

I really can't imagine the Chosen Undead being a particularly engaging character for Smash when a lot of their kit would either be broken or just goofy. If their rolls got more invul to them or had some mechanic to 'perfect roll' that'd make roll spam just that more annoying when fighting them. Any character with good healing potential is always infuriating in a fighting game. Hero's is at least limited uses per stock and Wii-Fit's is miniscule (As is Wario/Kirby's).

Characters like Elena in SF had their heal locked behind a super/ultra but the heal was pretty good and charged fairly quick. Just erasing opponents progress is a bad option for fighting games. So if Chosen Undead had Estus (Even if limited use per stock Estus) it would have to heal very small amounts or be so ungodly slow that using it is rarely an option (And thus making a move in their kit kinda useless.
While I don't disagree with this exactly, I just have faith in Sakurai to make literally any character fit into Smash while still retaining key components from their base game. I would never think that Piranha Plant or Steve would work as playable characters either, but I was proven wrong each time.

Also Robin technically has a move that heals for quite a lot, it's just rather hard to land.

I see what you're saying about Chosen Undead as a name, it might be kind of awkward.

The reason I'm bringing up the Amiibo in regards to Smash has to do with what I was talking about earlier; "what does Bamco seem to prioritize on the Switch?". It seems like out of all their other IPs on the platform, they've put an emphasis on Dark Souls. It's their only series to get an Amiibo, they had to license another company to develop the Switch Port, and they made a big deal out of it's reveal with a CG trailer at the very end of a direct.

Third parties choose which Amiibo they want to make, and manufacture/design/distribute it themselves. Plus, Nintendo has to agree to license it. I just find it interesting that Bamco and Nintendo opted to go through so much work and expense over Dark Souls, instead of all their other properties. The Amiibo, like I said earlier, is pretty useless also.
Oh sure, I do think that DS is the frontrunner from Namco for a variety of reasons. The most simple one being success.
 

Gnateb

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I do agree with healing being broken in fighting games; after all, healing spirits make fights a lot easier.
It would need to be balance tested, like, a lot, but I think it could work. :ultwiifittrainer: has a cool down on deep breathing, and I think that Estus could also be a limited-use special. For example, you could maybe have only 5 per game. If bonfires were included, maybe you'd have to buy more with Souls you get from dealing damage (I know that's not how it works in the original game, but for Smash changes need to be made some time).

Someone on Smashboards had a cool take on it, can't remember what the concept post was called though, unfortunately.
 
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I have to wonder, was fighter's pass 10 even meant to be an E3 reveal back when the DLC was decided on 2 years ago? For all we know that could have been fighter 11. Min Min and Steve took a long time, so it's hard to say whether their schedule matches their original expectations. Normally, I'd agree that E3 would be a place they would want to showcase their bigger stuff, but this E3 is unprecedented for Smash's developmental timeframe. We're talking about Nintendo planning for E3 2021 in the first half of 2019.

I really can't imagine the Chosen Undead being a particularly engaging character for Smash when a lot of their kit would either be broken or just goofy. If their rolls got more invul to them or had some mechanic to 'perfect roll' that'd make roll spam just that more annoying when fighting them. Any character with good healing potential is always infuriating in a fighting game. Hero's is at least limited uses per stock and Wii-Fit's is miniscule (As is Wario/Kirby's).

Characters like Elena in SF had their heal locked behind a super/ultra but the heal was pretty good and charged fairly quick. Just erasing opponents progress is a bad option for fighting games. So if Chosen Undead had Estus (Even if limited use per stock Estus) it would have to heal very small amounts or be so ungodly slow that using it is rarely an option (And thus making a move in their kit kinda useless.
I imagine any special mechanics for Chosen Undead would be tied to parry instead of roll. And if Estus was a thing, I do think it would be a slow move that would be mostly useful after taking a stock. It is pretty slow in Dark Souls, so there would be precedent there. Another thing I could see happening if estus exists would be to make Chosen Undead intentionally weakish to balance it out: the guy can survive forever, but isn't great at taking you out either. Idk, just a possibility.
 

SharkLord

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If we're talking about a Western/West-appeal rep, I'm still leaning towards LoL. Big just about everywhere, and it's owned by Riot, who is owned by Tencent (Or at least, Tencent has a 100% stake in 'em), and Tencent has been fairly close to Nintendo as of late (Distributing Switches in China, Pokemon Unite, CN-exclusive Ring Fit Direct). Though, as SKX31 SKX31 has mentioned before, it's a bit risky because we're not sure if the relationship started up early enough to matter for FP2.
 

Gnateb

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I imagine any special mechanics for Chosen Undead would be tied to parry instead of roll.
Yeah, a parrying mechanic would be way better and more fun for Smash than a roll, in my opinion.

I was thinking that to make the character more fun, and to work the progression/customizability aspects of the games into Chosen Undead's moveset, they could switch between miracles/sorceries for his neutral B.

Before you say that's too gimmicky, hear me out... None of their other moves could be switched; only neutral B. While resting at a bonfire, they could spend souls gained through dealing damage on different miracles/sorceries, which have different costs and power levels, and map them to their neutral B. These would become inoperable after a few uses. Most of his kill moves would be neutral B miracles/sorceries, so he would have to be aggressive at first, racking up damage with his normals for souls if he wants to KO the opponent.

This could also be fun because players can get creative and find unique applications for each purchasable move, and use the ones they like best. Not all of them are KO moves, as some have more situational uses.

Gravelord Greatsword Dance would be on the more expensive side, while flame whip and homing soulmass cost less.
 
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SpectreJordan

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I personally think Dark Souls has a good chance of showing up at E3. There's also characters like Lara Croft who have Japanese origins but are hugely recognizable worldwide, and while speculation has left a lot of us ruling out stuff like Capcom characters and Ryu Hayabusa, it's not like there's been any official statement to deconfirm them and they'd still technically make sense as big E3 reveals.

Honestly, you could say there's just not that many "likely" picks remaining in general. The only really viable Western characters basically boils down to Crash, Master Chief, and Dragonborn.
Yeah, I always end up forgetting Dark Souls. They’d be on that list I mentioned.

Lara Croft is actually a European character. Square just ended up buying her company like a decade after Tomb Raider came out.
 
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