Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Freduardo]

Again: You focus too much of if you could, and not enough on if you should.

Lloyd is from the game's real breakout hit, was the best-selling game in the series and still is (Though Vesperia's catching up fast), and is by far the most consistent Smash request. Yuri is consistently a high-ranker in the polls (Though if the recent Tales of Festival is any indication, Lloyd is also catching up), and gets used in crossovers a lot. Logic dictates that these two would be our best bets, since they have a lot of merits to them and are very recognizable in the context of the franchise.

Now, Cress does have a couple merits, like being the forefather of most other Tales protagonists... But he wouldn't be chosen just to have more names available on the select screen. That's not how Smash works. The Heroes were practically different versions of the same character, but the Tales characters are all different characters with different personalities, and forcing them into the same slot is gonna cause some issues.

Ah, I see. Just like how Spring Man has Ribbon Girl, Min Min, and Ninjara as alts, because they have a similar body type, stretchy arms, and can equip each other's ARMS. Oh wait.

They're not going to force in a bunch of different alts just to represent the archetype. Just one is enough. They don't need any alts, and if packs like Joker's and Sephiroth's are any indication, they'd probably just focus on a single game anyways.

It's not just Hero who has had this treatment. It's the Koopalings too. Where's Lemmy's beach ball or did it just not matter because the designers could? Alph had some different mechanics to Olimar between the games. Doesn't come up. That's being an alt.

My initial post and the context of this argument was being told the idea "will not work". If it is a case of "could and not should" than the idea could work. And I have fit my entire requirement and the complaints are void. "Should" is a difference of opinion. And you're welcome to yours. Please stop telling me mine is wrong just for being a different one. In my opinion, yes, getting Cless and Stahn is worth Lloyd forgetting that he used his second sword in combat...... on the third hit of his a combo and if you got the two hit run combo skill set on. And as a block (which I am totally down for him using the sword as a block, it's a parry blade held like a parry blade). That was all he used that parry blade for in his moveset in symphonia (according to my faulty memory, but it just wasn't that much of a focus. It wasn't like Vyse doing cutlass fury at a similar time period). That makes it a could and should to me.

As for the different personalities thing... Yeah, Lloyd had a different personality with the dwarven rules thing. Cless, Stahn, and Flynn.... No they don't. They have different names. If there was a difference in personalities, I didn't see it playing through any of those games.

 

[SharkLord]

It's not just Hero who has had this treatment. It's the Koopalings too. Where's Lemmy's beach ball or did it just not matter because the designers could?

My initial post and the context of this argument was being told the idea "will not work". If it is a case of "could and not should" than the idea could work. And I have fit my entire requirement and the complaints are void. "Should" is a difference of opinion. And you're welcome to yours. Please stop telling me mine is wrong just for being a different one. In my opinion, yes, getting Cless and Stahn is worth Lloyd forgetting that he used his second sword in combat...... on the third hit of his a combo and if you got the two hit run combo skill set on. And as a block (which I am totally down for him using the sword as a block). That was all he used that parry blade for in his moveset in symphonia (according to my faulty memory, but it just wasn't that much of a focus. It wasn't like Vyse doing cutlass fury at a similar time period). That makes it a could and should to me.

It was a reference...

The thing about the Koopalings is that they're A: Consistently grouped together, and B: Had a bunch of debates surrounding them over whether or not they or Bowser Jr. were better. There's also the fact that there's seven of them and Bowser Jr., and I kinda doubt we'd get all seven of them separately.

You presented the post as something you thought would be how we got a Tales rep. The problem is that it's not how Smash does things. It doesn't prioritize as much characters at once, it prioritizes who represents the series best. In terms of likelihood, it is unlikely that Smash would strip down Lloyd just to cram him into an alt for Cress. Even if they follow a similar archetype, they still have differences in how they fight, they have different personalities, and being from different games, they also have different mechanics to carry over. It's just too much to fit into the same slot in the same way Hero does.

 

[Perkilator]

This conversation is exactly the reason why Byleth wasn't another Pokémon Trainer but with House Leaders or why our ARMS rep wasn't a composite character; it just shoves in characters for the sake of it without a care in the world.

 

[Freduardo]

It was a reference...

The thing about the Koopalings is that they're A: Consistently grouped together, and B: Had a bunch of debates surrounding them over whether or not they or Bowser Jr. were better. There's also the fact that there's seven of them and Bowser Jr., and I kinda doubt we'd get all seven of them separately.

You presented the post as something you thought would be how we got a Tales rep. The problem is that it's not how Smash does things. It doesn't prioritize as much characters at once, it prioritizes who represents the series best. In terms of likelihood, it is unlikely that Smash would strip down Lloyd just to cram him into an alt for Cress. Even if they follow a similar archetype, they still have differences in how they fight, they have different personalities, and being from different games, they also have different mechanics to carry over. It's just too much to fit into the same slot in the same way Hero does.

It was a repeated point as well. Reference or not, either it applied to your argument or not.

A: Tales characters are also consistently grouped together. As characters in Bamco's rpg series.
B: They did. I don't think those debates mattered or happened with the smash development team. I strongly doubt we'd get a second tales character any more than a chance of us getting a second koopaling separately.
C: Based on Olimar/Alph, Dragon Quest Heroes, and the koopalings: Alts for more characters are how Smash does things. Based on Min Min, and the existence of echo fighters, alts for more characters are not how Smash does things. Smash is not consistent.

I think it's a possibility. That's right

It's a could.

You can disagree on the should.

We disagree. Okay.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Brb gonna make Estelle, a bo staff user, playable while making Joshua, a dual swordy, Lloyd, a tonfa user, and Rean, a single swordy alts of Estelle to make Trails fans happy

 

[Freduardo]

Brb gonna make Estelle, a bo staff user, playable while making Joshua, a dual swordy, Lloyd, a tonfa user, and Rean, a single swordy alts of Estelle to make Trails fans happy

Once again, these tales protagonists and tales gameplay is a lot more similar (and for the B moves, downright congruent) than that equivalence.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Once again, these tales protagonists and tales gameplay is a lot more similar (and for the B moves, downright congruent) than that equivalence.

I'm not sure if you're aware of this but Symphonia doesn't play like the original Tales game whereas Trails Sky and Trails Crossbell play the exact same, can't speak for Cold Steel as I haven't played it but I assume the only difference is the perspective, not to mention that Trails basically uses FF7 Materia so you can indeed give them all the same specials.

Oh, and Smash also has an A button to use attacks with, not just the B button

 

[RileyXY1]

Once again, these tales protagonists and tales gameplay is a lot more similar (and for the B moves, downright congruent) than that equivalence.

Except they're also less similar than the DQ protagonists.

 

[SharkLord]

This whole thing has dragged on long enough, so I'll end it off with this.

I'll admit, Cress and Stahl do seem close enough to work. Maybe Flynn could, but I feel like Vesperia's gameplay might have advanced a bit too far and he'd be an Echo or semiclone rather than a simple alt.

Lloyd is where I draw the line. While he follows the same archetype, his second sword a sword and not a shield. When you have to make liberties like that to make him fit, it just seems like we're adding alts for the sake of adding alts, rather than because they actually fit. The Tales alt gang can do just fine without having to force Lloyd to conform.

There's also the issue of normals, like Cutie Gwen mentioned. If it's for similar B moves, then Fox, Falco and Wolf would be folded into a single slot, but they're still separate characters rather than alts. If Lloyd and Cress were to coexist, I'd imagine it would be like them; Similar, if not tweaked specials, but unique and distinct normals.

 

[Gengar84]

Hey, as someone that spent years of my life modding Brawl, I’ll take as many characters as I can get even if it isn’t 100% accurate to how they play. I’m used to Captain Falcon, Battletoads, Blaziken, and Ryu all sharing a slot so nothing would really bother me too much lol.

 

[Freduardo]

I'm not sure if you're aware of this but Symphonia doesn't play like the original Tales game whereas Trails Sky and Trails Crossbell play the exact same, can't speak for Cold Steel as I haven't played it but I assume the only difference is the perspective, not to mention that Trails basically uses FF7 Materia so you can indeed give them all the same specials.

Oh, and Smash also has an A button to use attacks with, not just the B button

Yeah... but they all have the same A button basically in Tales.

A three hit combo that can be up to six hits with skills.

And I've played Phantasia and Symphonia. The only real difference in the battle system is one does 'pseudo 3d' and one does full 2d. Yes, this would make it so I wouldn't suggest making Natalia an alt of Chester.

But Stahn/Flynn an alt of Cless? Zero issue. Lloyd? More debatable I'll admit, but I also wouldn't lose a blink of sleep over it.

 

[cothero]

All this Tales talk serves as a good reminder that Lloyd is the most likely rep for inumerous reasons:

1) He was one of the most requested characters during the smash ballot days
2) Sakurai thinks he's the most obvious pick for a Tales rep
3) Most popular Tales character amongst smash fans
4) Have been in an exclusive GC game
5) inumerous appearances in other Bamco games, including Soul Calibur

At this point, everybody's going to be like "what a ****ing surprise" when he'll be revealed as one of the last two fighters.

 

[Guynamednelson]

When I suggest an MK challenger pack could come with Scorpion AND Sub-Zero and not just Get Over Here, it's not just more characters for the sake of more characters. It's because Sub-Zero can completely get away with using 80-90% of the assets made for Scorpion if he's based on classic MK, all he needs is his own specials+the animation/voice changes you normally expect from an echo.

 

[Technomage]

Hey, as someone that spent years of my life modding Brawl, I’ll take as many characters as I can get even if it isn’t 100% accurate to how they play. I’m used to Captain Falcon, Battletoads, Blaziken, and Ryu all sharing a slot so nothing would really bother me too much lol.

Your mention of the Battletoads has reminded me: If the Battletoads, of which there are three, were to get into the roster as alts of a single fighter, then I think it'd be okay to break the mold of 8 costumes per non-Mii (and instead add 9, to give all three Battletoads equal numbers of costumes).

Maybe the same could be done for Cress, Stahl, and Flynn if they were to get in as alts of a single fighter?

 

[SharkLord]

Your mention of the Battletoads has reminded me: If the Battletoads, of which there are three, were to get into the roster as alts of a single fighter, then I think it'd be okay to break the mold of 8 costumes per non-Mii (and instead add 9, to give all three Battletoads equal numbers of costumes).

I'd imagine the default toad (Rash? He seems like he's the main character) would get half the alts, and the other two get two each. Since, y'know, 8 isn't foully divisible by 3.

 

[Gengar84]

Your mention of the Battletoads has reminded me: If the Battletoads, of which there are three, were to get into the roster as alts of a single fighter, then I think it'd be okay to break the mold of 8 costumes per non-Mii (and instead add 9, to give all three Battletoads equal numbers of costumes).

Yeah, same here. I wish the cap of 8 slots didn’t exist to begin with. We ended up losing great outfits like Fire Mario because of that.

You could represent all of their colors by giving Pimple and Zitz 3 slots and Rash 2. Rash has changed the least between games while Zitz has changed the most being 3 different colors.

 

[Technomage]

Yeah, same here. I wish the cap of 8 slots didn’t exist to begin with. We ended up losing great outfits like Fire Mario because of that.

IKR? There's no reason to follow such a petty rule so strictly; we could have even gotten DLC costumes for non-Miis sooner.

I'd imagine the default toad (Rash? He seems like he's the main character) would het half the alts, and the other two get two each. Since, y'know, 8 isn't foully divisible by 3.

I know that; that's why I suggested 9 instead of 8.

 

[Gengar84]

Zitz is the leader of the group while Rash is closer to the Michelangelo. Zitz is basically a hybrid of Leonardo and Donatello. I guess Pimple is the Raphael by process of elimination but he doesn’t fit quite as well.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Yeah... but they all have the same A button basically in Tales.

A three hit combo that can be up to six hits with skills.

And I've played Phantasia and Symphonia. The only real difference in the battle system is one does 'pseudo 3d' and one does full 2d. Yes, this would make it so I wouldn't suggest making Natalia an alt of Chester.

But Stahn/Flynn an alt of Cless? Zero issue. Lloyd? More debatable I'll admit, but I also wouldn't lose a blink of sleep over it.

Well, FF7 has a basic Attack command so clearly every party member should be a Cloud alt, especially Cloud and Sephiroth, they're more similar than Lloyd and Cless after all so it'd be perfect according to you. After all, Cless and Stahn are significantly more sluggish compared to Lloyd and then Vesperia's got a real different combat system

IKR? There's no reason to follow such a petty rule so strictly; we could have even gotten DLC costumes for non-Miis sooner.

I wouldn't be surprised if some third party or even Nintendo themselves didn't like how some characters got more palettes than everyone else in Brawl and Smash 4, the mindset is probably "What makes Wario and Little Mac more special than insert character here? They aren't more special than insert character here and I do not want them to be deemed inferior than Wario and Little Mac" and Sakurai thought "**** it, 8 max to save time and costs"

 

[SharkLord]

IKR? There's no reason to follow such a petty rule so strictly; we could have even gotten DLC costumes for non-Miis sooner.

Maybe it's a technical limitation? It can take a while to get them to load on the screen already; Who knows how much trouble it has while loading it in for the fights.

Alternatively, maybe it's too much effort to spend finding good color combos. Note that eight is the maximum amount of players, so they only added enough for the players to not get confused.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

All this Tales talk serves as a good reminder that Lloyd is the most likely rep for inumerous reasons:

1) He was one of the most requested characters during the smash ballot days
2) Sakurai thinks he's the most obvious pick for a Tales rep
3) Most popular Tales character amongst smash fans
4) Have been in an exclusive GC game
5) inumerous appearances in other Bamco games, including Soul Calibur

At this point, everybody's going to be like "what a ****ing surprise" when he'll be revealed as one of the last two fighters.

With all the Sm4sh Miis that have returned, I honestly don't see him happening. I think he's coming with a Swordfighter character or Namco character in general.

 

[Technomage]

With all the Sm4sh Miis that have returned, I honestly don't see him happening. I think he's coming with a Swordfighter character or Namco character in general.

Maybe both? We have Nightmare, Yuri, and Velvet as candidates for both categories.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Maybe both? We have Nightmare, Yuri, and Velvet as candidates for both categories.

Never took Velvet as a swordfighter. Then again never played Berseria.

 

[N3ON]

I think the likeliest scenario at this point is that there isn't a Namco character. Again.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

I think the likeliest scenario at this point is that there isn't a Namco character. Again.

Which is pretty surprising and shocking as Namco played a part in making the Smash games since the fourth one. You'd think they'd at least have one added.

 

[Pillow]

I personally think Lloyd costume coming with a non Tales Namco rep is decently likely, but I doubt the point of them using swords or not matters. It’s not like previous fighter costumes that came with parent company fighters shared similar fighting styles to those characters.

 

[Ivander]

Never took Velvet as a swordfighter. Then again never played Berseria.

I think Velvet is a hybrid. She fights with her fists and feet, but also uses a gauntlet blade(think Altair and Ezio's hidden blade, but on the back of the hand rather than the front or side).

 

[SirCamp]

I think the likeliest scenario at this point is that there isn't a Namco character. Again.

Just wait until the supposed bonus character ends up being Decidueye because of Legends Arceus, and then Decideueye is the "Namco" character.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I think Velvet is a hybrid. She fights with her fists and feet, but also uses a gauntlet blade(think Altair and Ezio's hidden blade, but on the back of the hand rather than the front or side).

Yeah Velvet uses one on her arm and one on her leg, her giant demonic claw is basically an Install that gives her a unique combo finisher depending on the enemy type she devoured

 

[N3ON]

Which is pretty surprising and shocking as Namco played a part in making the Smash games since the fourth one. You'd think they'd at least have one added.

I mean it makes sense, at this point it does seem a little conspicuous, but the belief of them getting more is also usually bolstered by things that don't actually matter like parity and closeness with Nintendo. And some notion of Namco either having a say about the roster or receiving special treatment as the devs.

They very much are the work for hire they're contracted to be.

Just wait until the supposed bonus character ends up being Decidueye because of Legends Arceus, and then Decideueye is the "Namco" character.

Because... Pokken?

 

[SirCamp]

Because... Pokken?

Yes that was the joke. Hence the quotes.

 

[Freduardo]

Just wait until the supposed bonus character ends up being Decidueye because of Legends Arceus, and then Decideueye is the "Namco" character.

While that would make me sad to be denied an actual Namco character (I like Tales, I like Soul Calibur, I like Klonoa, I like Tekken).... I also would be really happy to have Decidueye. Especially because he's totally the starter I'll be using in Arceus. (I went Poplio in Gen VI. I went Oshawott in Gen V. And I went 'use trading with your brother and have all three starters' in Gen II back in the game boy color days. So I'm gonna enjoy having a Rowlett.

Wonder if Arceus will connect to pokemon bank

 

[Michael the Spikester]

I think Velvet is a hybrid. She fights with her fists and feet, but also uses a gauntlet blade(think Altair and Ezio's hidden blade, but on the back of the hand rather than the front or side).

Is a blade really a sword though? Always took them as basically a large dagger or knife.

 

[Technomage]

Maybe both? We have Nightmare, Yuri, and Velvet as candidates for both categories.

Oh, I forgot to mention Yoshimitsu, who could represent both Tekken and Soulcalibur (though I don't know if he'd have both of his incarnations as alternate costumes).

Is a blade really a sword though? Always took them as basically a large dagger or knife.

In a way, knives and daggers are swords, if you think about it.

 

[N3ON]

Yes that was the joke. Hence the quotes.

Oh, well then what's the problem, there's already five Namco characters on the roster.

 

[osby]

Is a blade really a sword though? Always took them as basically a large dagger or knife.

laughs in Smash fandom calling Joker a swordsman

 

[Ivander]

Is a blade really a sword though? Always took them as basically a large dagger or knife.

A blade is really just the sharp portion of the weapon that can cut. That's why you can also have "Axe Blade" or "blade of the dagger" or "blade hilt".

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Given Lloyd is more then likely to return as a Mii, that can give us hindsight who among the last two fighters are. As mentioned either a sword fighter, Namco character or both in general.

At this point I just can't see Lloyd being picked when all the other Sm4sh Miis have returned and that's the only one yet to not return.

 

[Gnateb]

One thing about returning miis which is interesting to me is the case of Akira from Virtua Fighter. Akira was revealed to have an assist in the base game, and when Joker came and went without Akira getting his costume back (he's Sega owned), most thought that was the end of it. Weirdly enough, though, his mii came back despite him having a brand new AT.

 

[Technomage]

Given Lloyd is more then likely to return as a Mii, that can give us hindsight who among the last two fighters are. As mentioned either a sword fighter, Namco character or both in general.

At this point I just can't see Lloyd being picked when all the other Sm4sh Miis have returned and that's the only one yet to not return.

I agree, though I did come up with a scenario where we could get both Lloyd as a character and Lloyd as a Mii costume: What if Lloyd's costume where to return in a free update, while we get to buy Lloyd as a fighter?