DK Tactical Discussion: Official "Ask Strong Bad Stuff.. About Stuff" thread

[MechWarriorNY]

Dash attack has armor. Thanks for making our favorite gorilla cheap as hell, Strong Bad!

 

[Sed]

How can I do the carry up throw to aerial moves more smoothly? I press jump and immediately Up+A but it never puts my jump close to the opponent like Strong Bad. what technique makes it smoother?

 

[Strong Badam]

Are you making sure you're doing a full jump? That's kind of key. I can't really help you figure out what you're doing wrong without a video.
Note that unless you're doing Cargo U-throw -> Fair, it's usually better to just do a grounded cargo u-throw.

 

[Koga_]

Tested out strong bad's full hop tip and it works

 

[Sixonesix]

How do you edgeguard Roy? DK doesn't seem to trade well with the fire at all.

 

[Planet Piss]

Roy's super hard to edgeguard in a lot of matchups. Keep in mind that he hovers near the ledge for a bit after his hitbox deactivates, so you don't have to be right next to him when he's recovering to get him. Some suggestions:
-Well-spaced dtilt
-Fair spike (hits really low but might get struck by the up+b)
-Invincible (ledge double jump) nair, which is usually better than bair in a lot of situations
-Running off and hitting him when he's descending with forward b as a mix-up
-Baiting unsweetspotted recoveries (jump off and then back on to trick him into up+b'ing into you)

Get good at using ledge invincibility though. 9 times out of ten it's better to just perfectly time a ledgegrab and roll on.

 

[SpiderMad]

Roy's super hard to edgeguard in a lot of matchups. Keep in mind that he hovers near the ledge for a bit after his hitbox deactivates, so you don't have to be right next to him when he's recovering to get him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7JsFY-5kow#t=124

 

[Jake The Preacher]

Any general tips against Mewtwo?

 

[TensenROB]

What do you think about charging Donkey Punch as you move around like in SSB? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVQXDYHXymI starts off with what I'm talking about. Is it possible? It seems like there's more endlag in Project M than in SSB so you can't do crazy things like charge-dj-bair, but charging it while you close space could be an option.

edit: You could also be funny and use it to change direction in mid-air.

 

[Planet Piss]

What do you think about charging Donkey Punch as you move around like in SSB? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVQXDYHXymI starts off with what I'm talking about. Is it possible? It seems like there's more endlag in Project M than in SSB so you can't do crazy things like charge-dj-bair, but charging it while you close space could be an option.

edit: You could also be funny and use it to change direction in mid-air.

I do this when I can't get a charge off in between stocks, otherwise it's almost pointless because of all the movement options in PM. You can bait approaches with it though, most people think they can run up and punish you if you charge in place mid-stock

 

[SkunkyDaniel]

Are there any particular match-ups that you pick another character for? I'm loving playing as DK, but I feel like it might be in my best interest to start investing time in another character to cover some of DKs weaker match ups... Any suggestions on a character that fits the bill well?

 

[Planet Piss]

Are there any particular match-ups that you pick another character for? I'm loving playing as DK, but I feel like it might be in my best interest to start investing time in another character to cover some of DKs weaker match ups... Any suggestions on a character that fits the bill well?

That's pretty much playstyle-specific. DK has some gnarly MUs, but personally I don't believe DK has any MUs that he can't find ways around.
DK just has this crazy innate ability to 0-death every member of the cast.

What MUs are you having trouble with? ZSS, Zard, spacies minus Wolf, Falcon, and Ivy are pretty rough.

 

[MVP]

That's pretty much playstyle-specific. DK has some gnarly MUs, but personally I don't believe DK has any MUs that he can't find ways around.
DK just has this crazy innate ability to 0-death every member of the cast.

What MUs are you having trouble with? ZSS, Zard, spacies minus Wolf, Falcon, and Ivy are pretty rough.

those MU i can dominate pretty well. for me, snake is the only real threat to me. Shiek is rough but i can still handle her

 

[SpiderMad]

What are good and bad stages vs Sheik

 

[Returnofthemac]

For sheik in general I just stay far away from the yoshis. and then I personally hate dreamland against sheik because she can really abuse the platforms and fair will kill early off the sides.

 

[SpiderMad]

And what stages vs Marth?

 

[Returnofthemac]

For marth I definitely stay away from yoshis still and then I like to ban any other stages with platforms that his fsmash reaches through. ( there are quite a few so pick your least favorite). For good stages I enjoy open stages like pokemon stadium 1 or 2 and dreamland. That way you have an easier time escaping tech chases.

 

[Planet Piss]

those MU i can dominate pretty well. for me, snake is the only real threat to me. Shiek is rough but i can still handle her

I always think I can dominate a MU until I see how proficiently the character can be played. Part of the problem of PM MU discussion is that in the game's infancy, many players think a certain way about a character based on how good of players they have in their region--which is to say that a character seems easy or difficult based on the relative skill of other players one has played. I used to think Charizard was free until I realized that he has 100% consistent edgeguard options, a jab that cancels all of DK's aerial options (as well as his dash dance grab) provided that it's being applied with thought and not just spammed, and enough combo and KO options to zero-death DK which is not easy given DK's weight/gravity.

 

[POOB]

On the topic of MU's, what are some opinions on Ness and Ivy? I have a hard time facing them for some reason, I don't know if this is a common thing or not. Those are 2 MU's I'm currently working on with DK. I would really appreciate some advice from experienced players.

 

[Planet Piss]

I don't have a lot of Ness experience but if you're playing against a Ness in friendlies, make sure to run in and attempt to powersheid PKF every time for practice. If you miss it and get hit, practice SDI and then punish him when he tries to grab or something. Other than that, avoid his fair and dash attack, which you can punish given that you're faster than him. Just wait for him to make a move and he'll kind of be stuck there for a bit. DD grab works really well against Ness. He can be a pest, but he's one of those characters that isn't readily able to KO DK if you have good combo DI. Avoid getting meteor'd offstage by weaving around with your up+b, you should be able to consistently beat it, and if not, make sure to pick a stage you can walltech on. Also, your fair will cover every one of his recovery options. Just do it a bunch. and if you miss and he's still coming, throw out dtilt if you're spaced well enough. If he can do the spacie angles to sweetspot the ledge, just grab it and invincinair, because if he goes over you you'll have time enough to react.

Ivy used to be horrific MU for DK. You literally COULD NOT get in or out of Ivysaur because of the neutral b hitbox which acted as a reverse-sort of shine, on top of all her other moves. Now, she's a lot slower, but good Ivys stay in the air until they're ready to make a committed approach. If she's trying to zone you out with bairs and fairs, learn the timings for those moves and move in with a sh uair, fullhop nair, or something else to punish, from which point you have to get at least 40-50% for it to be a fair fight. Razor leaf isn't broken anymore, so you'll be good if you just avoid it. If she's grounded, you are better off just slowly moving forward with cc dtilt and grabs. Observe how she behaves on the ledge, and run in to punish her ledge fairs while making sure to not get hit. Dash attack is really good in both of these MUs if you DD it so that they do a move that you can punish. Look out for up+b situations, because DI'ing it will save you much sooner than you'd think. Bait out SolarBeam and airdodge though it. Doing cargo uthrow uair at low percents is pointless IMO because of the low damage output and the fact that you're just giving Ivy more opportunity to pull combos on you.

Overall, make sure not to drop combos and get around 50% or higher from zero so that if you do end up getting killed, you can come back and nair nair fair for a stock reset.

 

[Grinpis]

HI mr strongbad I readed your guide and i know that you main wario and dk.
I main both of then. Dk is just a mostruous ape and wario is very troll.
So I would like to ask you some questions,

I have problems with the OOS specialy vs characters as , when they presure me. ¿what do you recomend? (with wario and Dk)


¿what matchups are better for Dk than wario?

 

[JRad]

I play with a ZSS main and I can tell you that matchup is pretty rough for DK but doable, you might want to be Wario for that one given Wario's aerial prowess. With ZSS, you have bad options for approaching because DK is terrible at dodging projectiles (the stun gun) and gets outrange by certain moves (normally our advantage). You can dash attack through the stun shot, however I would not recommend this as your primary method because if you misspace it then you are putting yourself in a terrible situation. She can't compete with your aerial game with her aerial game so staying in the air or on platforms is good, however look out for the up b. You need to make sure that once you get in on her, or at least in the space where she can't camp you that you do everything you can to keep pressuring her space. As far as grabs go, you want cargo uair. You can full hop cargo dair her up until about 45% so if you are on a platform stage this is a must! Cargo dair, then tech chase her with a grab/downb or even side b if you are feeling ambitious. You have really high potential to kill her like this on the top platform.

Mario is probably about even if you can win the spacing game. If he is spamming fireballs, then you should spam the bairs but otherwise you have a lot of options against him where you don't need the bair to win. Dash attack and nair work well against mario in the neutral. You can't get a lot off of cargo against him unfortunately and he is one of the characters I need to experiment more with things like cargo back thorw but you can full hop cargo up air him for a while in terms of percent. Ledgeguarding mario is a piece of cake, drop down and hit him with an aerial while he does his really lengthy recovery. You can dtilt a non sweetspot up b. If you are near the ledge try doing a cargo downthrow and then gimping him with dtilt or up b from the ledge. If you notice you are losing the spacing battle, you need to be tilting more.

DK vs. Sheik is really similar to the melee matchup except that you now have more offensive options (yay!). She is going to be doinga lot of needle camping and dash dancing, so absolutely do not get baited by that and dash attack. Tilts are pretty make or break in this matchup in my opinion. Downtilt is really strong as you can CC most of her attacks and dtilt can lead to grabs or dash attack. Cargo uairs are pretty easy but she gets out of the hitstun faster now than in melee, or the knock back is more not sure. Either way, trhow her up for uairs and she can't do anything because her falling game sucks. When she is recovering all you have to do is grab ledge and wait for her to go for stage, then you can get mostly any punish want.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

What's DK's best move?

Spoiler

 

[JRad]

Grab if that counts

 

[KuroganeHammer]

someone fill me in on the dirty things that can be done with cargo throw.

Anything I should know about if I was to say I was creating a thread with lots of data?

 

[King of Hoboz]

Got a friend who's been playing DK recently, he's been having a few questions after playing P:M for awhile. Just going to take his list and put it up here.
*Why did DK lose Jump-Cancel out of Ground Dash Attack? (I honestly have no idea about this one either)
*Does DK have armor on max-windup for Neutral B? Why doesn't he have it if so?

I've been thinking a lot about DK recently, and I'm curious if the ape needs anything to fill a gap. I'm not entirely sure yet.

 

[| Kailex |]

Dk still can jc dash attack

 

[Planet Piss]

I play with a ZSS main and I can tell you that matchup is pretty rough for DK but doable, you might want to be Wario for that one given Wario's aerial prowess. With ZSS, you have bad options for approaching because DK is terrible at dodging projectiles (the stun gun) and gets outrange by certain moves (normally our advantage). You can dash attack through the stun shot, however I would not recommend this as your primary method because if you misspace it then you are putting yourself in a terrible situation. She can't compete with your aerial game with her aerial game so staying in the air or on platforms is good, however look out for the up b. You need to make sure that once you get in on her, or at least in the space where she can't camp you that you do everything you can to keep pressuring her space. As far as grabs go, you want cargo uair. You can full hop cargo dair her up until about 45% so if you are on a platform stage this is a must! Cargo dair, then tech chase her with a grab/downb or even side b if you are feeling ambitious. You have really high potential to kill her like this on the top platform.

Mario is probably about even if you can win the spacing game. If he is spamming fireballs, then you should spam the bairs but otherwise you have a lot of options against him where you don't need the bair to win. Dash attack and nair work well against mario in the neutral. You can't get a lot off of cargo against him unfortunately and he is one of the characters I need to experiment more with things like cargo back thorw but you can full hop cargo up air him for a while in terms of percent. Ledgeguarding mario is a piece of cake, drop down and hit him with an aerial while he does his really lengthy recovery. You can dtilt a non sweetspot up b. If you are near the ledge try doing a cargo downthrow and then gimping him with dtilt or up b from the ledge. If you notice you are losing the spacing battle, you need to be tilting more.

DK vs. Sheik is really similar to the melee matchup except that you now have more offensive options (yay!). She is going to be doinga lot of needle camping and dash dancing, so absolutely do not get baited by that and dash attack. Tilts are pretty make or break in this matchup in my opinion. Downtilt is really strong as you can CC most of her attacks and dtilt can lead to grabs or dash attack. Cargo uairs are pretty easy but she gets out of the hitstun faster now than in melee, or the knock back is more not sure. Either way, trhow her up for uairs and she can't do anything because her falling game sucks. When she is recovering all you have to do is grab ledge and wait for her to go for stage, then you can get mostly any punish want.

Be sure to powershield ZSS lasers. DK has a pretty easy running powershield.

 

[SpiderMad]

Dk still can jc dash attack

on the ground though?

 

[JRad]

someone fill me in on the dirty things that can be done with cargo throw.

Anything I should know about if I was to say I was creating a thread with lots of data?

As I mentioned before, I am a melee DK so I know all the Melee stuff but for better and for worse things have changed. I'll try to sum up things the best I can for what I do in PM

Wolf, Fox, Falco - These are your easiest victims, on FD and Smashville any grab could potentially lead to death and if you dont get at least like 60-70 percent off of a low percent grab then you messed up somewhere.

What to do: Cargo upthrow without jumping and then regrab them, you will have to read their DI but this is guarenteed up until like 35-40. At this point you will do cargo short hop into upair followed by a shffl upair and then a uair -> double jump fair/nair/bair. A lot of it is DI and percent dependent so you will have to get comfortable with it. If you grab them between 90-105% then do a cargo short hop upthrow into fair. This will often kill them, make sure to fade backward if they DI behind you. At 105-115 you can still get the fair or do a grounded cargo upthrow into sweet spot upb. After that just cargo into uair.


Other fast fallers like captain falcon, bowser, etc. - At low percents you are going to just cargo shorthop uair right away. They are pretty straight forward in that you will basically uair the **** out of them up until about 80 then you want to go for fairs/nairs. You can do cargo full hop down air on them as well, this is really good for platform stages where you can tech chase. I'm not sure the percents for cargo dair but i usually only go for it around 40-50. Once you have them at about 100 or higher you can do cargo upthrow fair.

Mid weights Sheik, Marth, Roy, ZSS, Ike etc. - You will cargo upthrow these people into upair string. Most midweights have terrible falling options but unlike melee they can get out of the hitstun faster so you need to be fast with all of your follow up uairs. You can shffl uairs in the beginning of the cargo but then you will have to full hop uair. Once they get above 40-50 they might be able to jump out of just cargo upthrow before you uair, so at these percents if you want the guarenteed hit then you need to cargo full hop. Try cargo dair between 35-50 for platforms. Once they hit 80 you can do cargo fullhop fairs up until about 100-110% dependign on character. Most characters wnt survive past this point but if they do, then cargo full hop uair.

Floaties Peach, Jigglypuff, Luigi - You can cargo uthrow and hit peach without leaving stage at low percents. After that you pretty much need to always cargo fullhop if you want a hit like uair. Beware of luigi nair, my advice for him is once he is past 30 just throw him up and bait nair and hit him as he falls. For most of these characters throwing them up and trying to hit them as they fall is good except for jiggs. You should be picking stages like battlefield against these characters because they will extend your combos drastically. Cargo full hop fair only works on peach between like 55-70.

Characters hard to cargo Ness, Lucas, Mario, Game and Watch - These just get really tricky given their weights, they can jump out unless you do a cargo full hop but that is not to say that they will, so you need to be super fast with your follow ups! At low percents i tend to do cargo uthrow and go for uair, sometimes they wont try to jump, sometimes you will hit them as they jump, others they get out. Cargo full hop dair is really good against them. Cargo full hop fair also works against these characters starting at around 70.

This is personally what I go by, this should help you if you aren't doing these things. You can get cargo upthrow into punch also, sometimes you have to short hop or full hop for it but I really can't give you more specific information on how to do it. I have seen a lot of videos of people doing cargo short hop backthrow fairs and things like that, I honestly don't know anything about that so I will be experimenting. Strongbad can help you with that if you watch his videos. Cargo downthrow is extremely underrated, it has pretty much straight horizontal knockback so this is fantastic for low percent gimps as well as jumping off stage.

Cool Tricks:
Vs. Spacies (and a few others) - Cargo downthrow them off stage and then UpB to the ledge. You will hit them out of their illusion which they will most likely go for, then do an upb/bair/dair off the stage to ledgeguard.

Vs. Anyone but varies on percent - Cargo fullhop of stage fthrow -> double jump fair. This is legitimate on some characters depending on the percent, but the goal here is to hit them out of their second jump.

Vs. Fast fallers - Cargo jump off uthrow -> uair -> side B/Upb -> UpB

Vs. Spacies and fast fallers -> This works on platforms when they DI off the platform or when they DI off stage, cargo uthrow into fsmash. You can get this on spacies so much because they will often try to DI off platforms or stage to preven regrab. Only try this at percents between 20-40.

Vs. Anyone - Cargo, jump understage and throw them into the stage. Some stages like batlefield can spike them, others they will just get stuck. Since DK has less lag after throw and a better vertical you can do shenanignas like following up with a footstool, upb, or just going back to ledge and ledgeguading.

Accidental double post

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Great information @ JRad , thank you!

 

[| Kailex |]

on the ground though?

iirc he still can; unless the timing was changed without me noticing :/ ill go check on it asap

 

[KuroganeHammer]

iirc he still can; unless the timing was changed without me noticing :/ ill go check on it asap

You can't bro.

I think you can in the air though.

Edit: I lied. You can jump cancel it on frame 22 (grounded and aerial)

 

[| Kailex |]

You can't bro.

I think you can in the air though.

Edit: I lied. You can jump cancel it on frame 22 (grounded and aerial)

Oh seems like i wasnt day-dreaming then...

 

[SpiderMad]

Then what was the change list saying cus I remember reading something

 

[KuroganeHammer]

LMAO

apparently in 3.0 grounded dash attack jump cancel was removed...

Grounded Dash Attack FAF: 39 (everything but jump, jump will cancel the move on the 23rd frame)

 

[Sixonesix]

More stuff about cargo in addition to what JRad said (from the point of view of someone who has only played DK in P:M and not Melee):

- Grounded cargo fthrow is an extremely good setup at low percents. This was notably not an option in Melee. Fthrow -> nair -> regrab works on most non-floaties at 0% if they don't DI, and most characters Ike's weight and heavier can't do much if anything about it regardless of DI. Semi-fastfallers like Lucas and Metaknight will hit the ground if they DI away, in which case you can tech chase regrab them fairly easily. Average weight characters will likely still catch at least the weak hit of nair if they DI away.

- Grounded cargo fthrow can also lead into uair at a much more manageable height than cargo uthrow, and stuff like fthrow -> uair -> fair is a true combo on characters like Sheik at around 40%-ish.

- Full hop cargo uthrow -> fair and cargo fthrow -> fair are true combos at KO percents on most characters, and the requisite DI to escape from either conflicts with each other. That is, if they attempt to DI out to escape fthrow -> fair it sets them up perfectly for uthrow -> fair and vice versa. Uthrow stops working at lower percents than fthrow but it's also harder to escape since DK can still score a shoulder hit behind him even with correct DI sometimes. Cargo bthrow sends the opponent further away from DK than fthrow but bthrow -> fair can also catch people who attempt to DI expecting fthrow.

- Uthrow -> punch works on some midweights (Marth, Sheik) up until about 67% and on fastfallers a little higher than that.

- On spacies and falcon, cargo uthrow -> uair -> regrab works until like 30-40% followed by uair x1000 -> fair/punch. At mid-high percents cargo fthrow -> nair near the edge doesn't KO outright but it sends them too far away from the stage to recover, particularly if you get that one really weird nair hitbox that sends them at like Sheik slap trajectory. At high percents grounded cargo uthrow -> fair will KO and they can do nothing about it DI-wise short of you messing up and giving them time to tech on a platform.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

question. is it worth my time to add cargo throw advantages in my frame data thread

 

[Returnofthemac]

question. is it worth my time to add cargo throw advantages in my frame data thread

Oh my god you don't know how much that would help me understand the timing better. So yes the cargo throw data would be extremely helpful, as a lot of dks grab game is based on cargo throw.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

k, I'll do this

Keep in mind that I'm pretty sure that cargo throw is based on weight pretty much the same as hit stun is, so Jigglypuff will have the most disadvantage while Bowser should have the least

It'll take quite a bit of work to test every character so give me 2 or 3 days. Does anyone have a project M weight list; i cbf looking and I need to sleep or I will simply DIE and none of you will get frame data ever again if that happens

plz understand

Edit: I'l clarify: the data you'll be getting is frame advantage so HYPOTHETICAL example: you throw jigglypuff and you can move 18 frames before she can attack/air dodge/jump or whatever it'd be +18 (because DK has the advantage obvs)

I'll start this tonight I guess.