DK Stage Discussion - Brinstar

[TheNix]

Okay, there has been a lot of discussion about stages lately, and I think it has become clear that a lot of us may not be selecting the right stages or playing on them correctly. I figured I would start the discussion off, although I'm really hoping for some good contribution from the more well-known DKs.

If a stage has characters listed in green or red, it will tell you how those characters fare on the stage. Characters in red do very well on the stage, and you should avoid fighting them there if possible. Characters in green do not do so well, so those stages are a viable counter-pick choice for you.

I'm taking a break from Neutrals for a bit to cover a popular DK stage, Brinstar.

Brinstar

Falco

Pros

• Small blastzones on all sides allow DK to get some extremely early kills with all of his kill moves.
• Use the down+b on the bottom section. Not only does it cover almost the whole area, but it will separate the stage and refresh your moves.

Cons

• Small blastzones mean that we also die earlier than normal, although not nearly as early as our opponents.
• It is impossible to stage spike people, here.

Other Tips/Facts

• Once the stage is separated, DK is usually at a greater advantage. The extra space makes it easier for DK to keep people at a range, and while many characters may not be able to recover if pushed into the empty space, DK has no difficulty making it to either side.

Pokemon Stadium 1

Pros:

• The weird edge isn't a problem for us at all during recovery, but it is for many other characters.
• Low platforms allow for more lagless up+Bs.
• Stage spiking can work here, although it's a little awkward.

Cons:

• Certain stage changes can make spacing extremely difficult.

Other Tips/Facts

• Learn to tech, and get under that Windmill when it appears... if you are at a high percent, anyway. If your opponent is at a much higher % than you and is camping under the windmill, don't bother chase; it's not going to give you an advantage.
• Abuse the potential down tilt lock against a wall if possible. However, be careful not to let your opponent do the same thing as you.
• Don't be afraid to camp if a specific stage change is not in your favor. If you think your opponent has an advantage, run to a corner and wait for the stage to change again.

Battlefield

Pikachu
Marth

Pros:

• The platforms give us lots of options when recovering. Lagless up+bs are very easy, here.
• We are very good at dealing with people who land on platforms. Up tilt, uairs, bairs, etc are all great ways to hit people up there. If someone hits the platform and is forced to roll, you can chase with an up smash.
• Stage spiking with cargo throws or otherwise are very much possible here. Beware of techs.

Cons:
Nothing in particular.


Lylat Cruise

Falco, Fox, Wolf, Toon Link
Zero Suit Samus

Pros:

• Our recovery is safer here, as we can transition from an aerial to a grounded up+b if the stage is tilting correctly. We can also come higher and land smoothly on platforms.
• This stage is ideal for stage-spiking with cargo throws, or with the first hit of our aerial up+b.

Cons:

• DK head pokes through the platforms. This makes it much easier for our opponent to his us while we are below them. Watch out for Snake's explosives.

Other Tips/Facts

• You must be aware of the direction that the stage is tilting. This is very important when recovering, and can also influence your combos (especially anything involving your down tilt). Some opponents' ability to combo in some situations is also hampered, and the tilting can also mess up projectiles.
• If you use a grounded up+b on a platform and slide off, you should be able to make a lagless landing on the stage, depending on the stage's tilt.

Yoshi's Island(Brawl)

Lucas, Ness
Falco, ROB, Snake, Toon Link

Pros:

• The walls on the side of the stage can help us survive being spiked, with proper DI and teching.
• The platform doesn't bother us as much as many other characters. We don't have any problem hitting people off the platform with bairs and uairs.
• The platform allows us to recover much higher over the stage with our up+b without "falling down" after the up+b.
• The ghost platform can save us if we are spiked or footstooled too low. Just remember to back up the correct distance from the stage, "just in case".
• We can camp under the central platform by zoning with our down+b.
• Slanted edges allow more options for edge-guarding opponents, mostly with dtilts and ftilts.

Cons:

• The ghost platform can save other people just as well as it can save us.
• Characters with a good projectile game may be able to out-camp us.
• We cannot stage-spike people here, in a traditional sense. We may be able to footstool people out of cargo throws against the stage, however.

Other Tips/Facts

• Shy guys can block projectiles from opponents, and you can also use them to refresh your moves. However, they also slow down attacks that hit them. Throwing out a down smash near a shy guy is probably not a good idea, in most cases.
• Invincibility can be granted if you have proper timing when using your up+b to recover. This is an extremely safe method of recovery and is very useful on this stage. You can see a video of this in action here.

 

[OmniOstrich]

Add to this that you can camp under the center platform by zoning with d special.

I wouldn't mind helping out with this for the CP stages, I've worked a lot on making it so that my DK should always win on my counterpicks.

 

[TheNix]

Add to this that you can camp under the center platform by zoning with d special.

I wouldn't mind helping out with this for the CP stages, I've worked a lot on making it so that my DK should always win on my counterpicks.

Added, thanks for the comment. The down+b is pretty much universally good on any kind of wide area, but it is worth mention.

I don't really know how long we should discuss each stage, and I haven't even really done any planning about the next stages. But I figured a thread like this would be helpful, and nobody else seemed to want to create it. Any help is greatly appreciated.

 

[Four Leaf]

- The slanted edges allow for some weird attack angles that some opponents might not expect ex: D-tilt hits weird making opponents who don't have an Up B that attacks hard to recover. Lucarios who don't wall cling here have problems getting around the angle of the d-tilt. They either keep running into my d-tilt, wall cling, or they're forced to use their recovery to go over me. This also works for D smash, F smash and F-tilt. Try it, it's stupid.

- Shy guys add extra lag to either players. This is both a pro and a con.

- This stage doesn't have as many benefits as a CP. It doesn't limit most of the cast in a major way.

- The ghost platforms can randomly save anyone that DK spikes.

- run-off aerials don't spike opponents against the stage, every other neutral can due to the angle.

I can't think of anything more atm. I'll update if I think of something. Hope it helps.

 

[Ripple]

you actually can stage spike people on this level but not in the usual way we think with DK. IF you cargo them and pivot walk off the ledge with them so you face the stage you can underhand throw them and once they hit the wall they receive some lag so you can footstool them and then you delay grabbing the ladge so their up B won't hit you. you can also do a falling nair or bair if you want to hit them.

 

[highandmightyjoe]

This is Dk's second best neutral after Battlefield. As you said he can upB from the ledge, and if he is standing on the side platforms, he can do a grounded upB accross the gap and continue it on stage, players who aren't familiar with that are usually caught off guard. I'm pretty sure his up tilt will hit players on the platform from below no matter how it is angled. I'm sure I missed a few things, but all together it is a good stage for DK.

If were going to go through each stage like this, perhaps it would be a good idea to mention what characters you should or should not play on each stage. Is there any particular character that DK should take to Yoshi's?

 

[YagamiDark]

Not sure how to explain it, but Up-B off the ledge becomes grounded.

 

[TheNix]

Not sure how to explain it, but Up-B off the ledge becomes grounded.

Already mentioned:

If you are on the edge and your opponent is standing a small distance away, drop off the edge and immediately do your up+b. Hold the control stick toward the stage and down (so that you do not re-grab the edge). As soon as you come over the lip of the stage, you will make a transition into a grounded up+b. This is a very safe method of coming over the edge, as even if they try to attack you, the attack will most likely clash.

Keep the comments coming, anyway. I'm going to update the OP again sometime this evening with the useful information.

 

[highandmightyjoe]

I once experienced a glitch on Yoshi's where my upB from the ledge remained invincible for the entire duration of the move. I have a replay of it on my wii, but I haven't been able to recreate it yet. Maybe worth looking into.

 

[Jmex]

^ Is there any way of uploading that onto youtube or another website?

 

[highandmightyjoe]

Well, I would have to send it to someone else to upload for me, and I use homebrew, and I'm kind of just getting used to it. Is there still a way to send stuff, I can't get online.

 

[Nokonoko]

^ Brawl can’t access the SD card slot if Ocarina is turned on. Just boot the game normally and copy the replay to an SD Card.

 

[TheNix]

Made some updates.
Yoshi's Island isn't the kind of stage that you will actually be counterpicking (unless maybe in "best 3 out of 5" scenario against certain characters), but I wouldn't be striking it for the first match, either, unless you are against an extremely campy opponent.

I have a much better time against Marth here than any other neutral stage. It is also pretty good against Mr. G&W, as he really doesn't like that central platform. It's also somewhat bad for Ness and Lucas, if they are any concern for you at all.

When covering stages that aren't Luigi's Mansion or Japes, I think it's more important to stress "what to watch out for on this stage and stage-specific strategies", rather than "when to pick this stage".

 

[Mith_]

DK's F-Smash takes up like 2/5ths of the level.

 

[Jmex]

Made some updates.
Yoshi's Island isn't the kind of stage that you will actually be counterpicking (unless maybe in "best 3 out of 5" scenario against certain characters), but I wouldn't be striking it for the first match, either, unless you are against an extremely campy opponent.

I have a much better time against Marth here than any other neutral stage. It is also pretty good against Mr. G&W, as he really doesn't like that central platform. It's also somewhat bad for Ness and Lucas, if they are any concern for you at all.

When covering stages that aren't Luigi's Mansion or Japes, I think it's more important to stress "what to watch out for on this stage and stage-specific strategies", rather than "when to pick this stage".

I would have to agree, picking this stage against a campy snake, is no fun at all. I speak from experience, also Battlefield against a campy snake is horrible as well.

 

[Tujex]

Speaking from personal exerience...I've had trouble here with Falco, Wolf, Snake, Samus, and T.Link...all o which projectile spammed me. Despite the central platform, this still seems to be a spammers paradise, so I still had to be careful.

 

[highandmightyjoe]

Speaking from personal exerience...I've had trouble here with Falco, Wolf, Snake, Samus, and T.Link...all o which projectile spammed me. Despite the central platform, this still seems to be a spammers paradise, so I still had to be careful.

Really? My roommate plays Tink and he says this is his least favorite neutral for the DK match. I also have little trouble with Falcos there. Snake is definately a pain though.

 

[TheNix]

Alright, I think we've covered all that is to be said about Yoshi's Island. Should we move on to another neutral (Lylat Cruise? Battlefield?), or cover one of our best stages (Mansion, Japes)?

I'm very open to suggestions, though I'm going to do Lylat next if nobody has a better suggestion.

 

[Donkey Bong]

i think we should cover neutrals well first, so we know which matchups not to take there, stage ceilings and other tidbits.

 

[highandmightyjoe]

I agree we should cover all the neutrals first. Lylat or Battlefield sounds good. I say Lylat since I'm pretty sure we all know battlefield pretty well already.

 

[Donkey Bong]

<3's Battlefield.

would definitely like to find out more about Lylat Cruise. i hate that stage.

 

[Jmex]

Lylat to me, is the easiest stage to Stage Spike, its just amazing. Also you can occasionally come up from the ledge like on Yoshi's island, with a grounded up b.

 

[TheNix]

Alright, begin Lylat Cruise discussion! I'll update the OP in a few minutes with a new title and picture, with some basic info.

As Jmex said, the aerial-to-grounded up+b works on this stage, too. You just need be careful about the tilting stage, and be careful not to get stuck under the wing. The platforms are low and close to the edge, as well, which means we can sometimes avoid opponents by coming well over the stage with an up+b, without risking a stupid landing.

This is possibly the best stage for stage-spiking, as even if they tech it, it puts them in a very bad position. Cargo dthrows under the stage can also kill characters with a bad recovery, though many can actually make it up on the other side of the stage (I've even seen the likes of Marth survive like this, constantly).

I'm not sure which characters really dominate here. I know that Lylat Cruise is among Zero Suit Samus' best stages, at least.

 

[highandmightyjoe]

Yeah, don't take Zamus there, bad idea. DK rarely gets gimped by the stage in my experience, since even if you do get stuck under it, his upB lasts long enough for you to correct yourself most of the time. You can do grounded upB from the ledge here similar to what you do on Yoshi's, but the tilting can mess with it. Sometimes an upB that should have had a 0-lag landing will end up getting the regular laggy landing because the stage tilts while your doing it, which always makes me mad.

I find it easy to edgeguard with DK here because of the relatively small size of the horizontal blast zone, and some people being nervous about the gimpy ledge sometimes causes them to recover differently than they normally would, making them easier to guard.

Overall I kind of like the stage for DK, but not enough to ever counter with it. I can't really think of any characters that you would take there either, maybe just people with terrible recoveries, I guess if you ever run into a Link player you might try it. I wouldn't mind if I got this as my starting stage, but I doubt I would ever counter with it.

 

[OmniOstrich]

good things about lylat not yet listed:
-sliding headbutt off the platforms is an excellent mindgame
-grounded upB off of a platform to the main stage is lagless and hard to punish
-blastzones are close making everything KO earlier than any other neutral (including meteors)
-dsmash hits opponents on platforms

bad things about lylat:
-DK's head pokes up through the platforms meaning you can get hit by opponents standing on them (especially bad in the case of C4)
-The slant can mess up dtilt combos when the stage is tilted to an extreme

 

[MasterCheeze]

Sometimes my opponents try to cp LC and FO to throw me off (tilting/flipping stages ftl?), but for the most part things work out for me in those two places. I'm kinda uncomfortable getting back to the stage when knocked above though, since usually the three platforms (covering about 75% of the stage) obstruct a clear landing, and I get hit again. >.<

 

[Mr.Victory07]

Recovering offstage to a lagless up-b is pretty easy here.
Uh, not much else i guess. U smash hits through all the platforms i guess

 

[Four Leaf]

I CP this against Snake only. He kinda sucks here

 

[Chibi-Chan]

From what Ive read in the Snake Board, he kinda ike this stage.... Its easy for him to hit with his tilts and stuff... Specially vs DK.. and then, the color of the stage and the pitch black background means his C4 and Nades came into the stage... And seeing how DK can trigger C4's on the upper plataforms, this can be bad if you take your eyes off for a second and end up trippng all the bombs blindly... >> Not a CP vs Snake..... Good vs Other capers though, nowhere to run from DK, a lot of space to run from projectiles... Also, this stage might not be too bad vs Olimar, ifyou can pressure him correctly nya~

 

[TheNix]

I don't think there are any characters I would counterpick this stage for (maybe Falco?), but I wouldn't strike it against anyone but ZSS.

The Snakes I fight have no significant problems on Lylat Cruise.

 

[highandmightyjoe]

Here's the upB on Yoshi's I was talking about earlier. We tested it and with proper timing you can go through projectiles like this, but I have yet to use the invincibility on a melee attack, so its probably just projectiles. Not sure if this was known yet or not, but the timing wasn't too hard to learn or anything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-FXO43sUAc

 

[TheNix]

Here's the upB on Yoshi's I was talking about earlier. We tested it and with proper timing you can go through any projectile like this, but I have yet to use the invincibility on a melee attack, so its probably just projectiles. Not sure if this was known yet or not, but the timing wasn't too hard to learn or anything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-FXO43sUAc

Awesome. I haven't seen that before. I'll add the video to the OP.
I wonder if this would work on Lylat Cruise, too.

 

[OmniOstrich]

Here's the upB on Yoshi's I was talking about earlier. We tested it and with proper timing you can go through any projectile like this, but I have yet to use the invincibility on a melee attack, so its probably just projectiles. Not sure if this was known yet or not, but the timing wasn't too hard to learn or anything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-FXO43sUAc

Woah wtf? Thats a REALLY useful AT. Is it only on Yoshi's or can it be replicated on any map where you get grounded upB? Also, exactly what projectiles does it work on? Any projectile? or just the ones that transcend priority?

 

[Rauzaruke]

Woah wtf? Thats a REALLY useful AT. Is it only on Yoshi's or can it be replicated on any map where you get grounded upB? Also, exactly what projectiles does it work on? Any projectile? or just the ones that transcend priority?

Seconded. But why would it only work with Falco's Laser? More testing should be done indeed.

 

[highandmightyjoe]

I tested it with Fox/Falco/Wolf lasers, and IC iceblocks, worked on all of them. Haven't tried anything else yet. Also I tried to test it on melee attacks, but my attack just kept out prioritizing whatever my friend used, so it was kind of hard to tell if I was getting invincibility or not. Either way it is probably most effective for projectiles.

DK = Zangeif

 

[magikguy]

zangeif is manly , so i'm okay with that comparison :D

 

[highandmightyjoe]

I'm going to have my friend help me test this some more today and get all the details laid out. I really want to know for sure what it can and can't go through.

On topic, we don't seem to be talking about Lylat much, should we move on? I recommend Battlefield next, even if we do all pretty much know it already, its still pretty important that we know our best neutral.

 

[Rauzaruke]

I'm going to have my friend help me test this some more today and get all the details laid out. I really want to know for sure what it can and can't go through.

On topic, we don't seem to be talking about Lylat much, should we move on? I recommend Battlefield next, even if we do all pretty much know it already, its still pretty important that we know our best neutral.

As long as you go make a topic about this sexy spin thing then yes, we will start talking about stages again.

What's there to say about Battle field though? You can **** on the side platforms and stage spike. You can avoid projectiles with the platforms as well. What else?

 

[highandmightyjoe]

I'll make the thread when my testing is done, I still have some stuff to figure out first.

On BF you can 0-lag land your upB a lot of different places there. From a ledgehop you can land it on either of the lower two platforms. From the two side platforms you can land on the stage floor, and from under either of those platforms you can shorthop an upB and land it on the platform above you.

 

[Drizzt6195]

Who you should or woh you souldn't take to BF with you