DK CG on ZSS

[Supermodel From Paris]

This is pretty old but I'd never seen it or even heard about it until I played Will in friendlies a few days ago, so here it is:

DK can CG ZSS from 0-70??% with dthrows only. It is legit and cannot be escaped.

On moving platforms (such as the one on smashville) the CG is infinite and inescapable.

 

[Tristan_win]

Are you sure, I've never heard of a DK chain grab in Brawl. There's no video of it on youtube, and only one thread that even mention it and it doesn't seem fairly solid as there only 2 pages. The discussion never really went beyond that it works on Zss and honestly for Zss own good it would most likely be the wisest thing to do would to end this thread here with no more chatter on this so this chain grab doesn't become more public knowledge.

 

[Kewkky]

Well, Tristan, that's a nice way of helping the Brawl community progress: hide the valuable info so that we may keep our advantages. It'll eventually be found out by people, so why the need to hide it?

Not like it matters if they have a grab and stuffs, just attack him like we usually do, except this time, watch out for his grab. You shouldn't be getting grabbed anyway if you try and keep your distance, and only get close to punish him when you're 100% sure you will hit.

 

[Tristan_win]

Well, Tristan, that's a nice way of helping the Brawl community progress: hide the valuable info so that we may keep our advantages. It'll eventually be found out by people, so why the need to hide it?

Not like it matters if they have a grab and stuffs, just attack him like we usually do, except this time, watch out for his grab. You shouldn't be getting grabbed anyway if you try and keep your distance, and only get close to punish him when you're 100% sure you will hit.

Helping the smash community is one thing but betraying your own character is another. People work hard on learning their character in hope to earn money or at least place, why make it harder to do just that?

It's play to win to the next level, information warfare

 

[wWw Dazwa]

Incorrect Tristan, by withholding information regarding your character's weaknesses, you won't properly learn to play around them - you're eventually going to run into a Donkey Kong who does know about the CG, and you're going to have to play avoiding grabs. You'd be best suited for this, if the DKs you practice with are aware of the CG.

Informational withholding is a pretty good strategy in the first couple of months of Brawl, where parlor tricks will win you tournaments, but we're well beyond that point.

 

[Tristan_win]

Incorrect Tristan, by withholding information regarding your character's weaknesses, you won't properly learn to play around them - you're eventually going to run into a Donkey Kong who does know about the CG, and you're going to have to play avoiding grabs. You'd be best suited for this, if the DKs you practice with are aware of the CG.

Informational withholding is a pretty good strategy in the first couple of months of Brawl, where parlor tricks will win you tournaments, but we're well beyond that point.

We aren't talking about some type of parlor trick that zero suit is using but a for the most part unknown chain grab that a character is using against zero suit. Something like this really shouldn't be talk about in the forums though, kept it in more of a instant chat system to prevent awareness would be best if possible. If you want your local DKs to use it against so you can train yourself to avoid it tell them but don't go telling everyone just in hopes they wont know.

Also there are weakness you can learn to overcome just with pure thought, you don't need to have a test dumb for everything and there's strengths you don't need to talk about.

 

[noradseven]

I didn't know it worked till 70%, but yeah I knew it existed , thankfully its not a zero death... we still own DK in so many other ways lol down B on reaction to anything that can kill, so I bet the match is still even/our favor.

 

[wWw Dazwa]

Playing to avoid grabs with pure thought isn't as good of a solution as you might think. The debates surrounding Wobbling, and even the Brawl ICs variant wouldn't nearly have been as heated if that were the case. You need to re-shape your entire playstyle, using moves you know won't put you in risk of being grabbed, because getting grabbed is likely the best punishment they can pull on you, especially in Brawl, where you're mostly worried about 1-2 hit punishments that put you in unfavorable position. Dealing 80% is something your opponent is going to fight for.

Simply thinking "Don't get hit" isn't why it's good advice. It's forming your playstyle around not getting hit, something you need to practice. Figuring out what moves you previously thought couldn't be punished nearly as hard are at risk of being grabbed, mastering the spacing of your entire moveset to fight just outside of grab range, even perhaps learn how to bait DK's grabs in the first place, as risky as that may be. A CG changes the matchup entirely, simply pretending it doesn't exist won't allow us to evolve in it. Doing these things to fight a strict matchup will improve us in the long-run.

Especially considering the DK in question is Will, who's one of the top bananas (sorry, had to) of the DK hierarchy. Needless to say, information from him will be taken as great advice from other DKs - we'll eventually lose a non-information war.

Also, suggesting we tell local DKs about the CG, but not other ones, isn't going to accomplish much for keeping it a secret. You yourself prove this through the concept of character loyalty - they're going to tell other DKs, and they'll all eventually know about this CG. Not to mention, the most common DKs you're going to run into are the local ones

 

[Kewkky]

Those words shouldn't be the words of a good player. Being good doesn't mean that you keep information from others in order to win your matches, being good means that you help others with what they don't know and they in tun help you by allowing you to practice against that.

Keeping info from the masses hurts you just as much as it hurts the opponent: a stagnated metagame in both characters' parts. And if the DK did it against SFP, and SFP knew nothing about that, it's safe to say that the ones playing your information warfare game are the DKs against us and not the other way around.


Seriously, you lose more than you gain. If you randomly encounter a DK that can chaingrab you until 70% and you haven't even practiced against how you can evade it (or the possible mindgames/setups they may have to start it), you won't be going anywhere in that touney unless you can adapt and counter that tactic in 2 matches.

 

[LanceStern]

I don't understand how a CG is advancing the metagame at all.

Sure some techniques shouldn't be withheld, but if it's something cheap, let the opponents figure it out. You can work on spacing in the training room or something like that. Just choose DK and test his grab range and see what moves ZSS can do to stop it.

It's like you tell people to hold up a barbed wire fence in front of you while jogging up hill.

 

[stealthwarrior17]

I HONESTLY DID NOT KNOW THIS. This is very important information! For DK players its a god send while for us ZeroS players its a threat we need to know. Thanks for the heads up, now for mind games...

 

[wWw Dazwa]

It's like you tell people to hold up a barbed wire fence in front of you while jogging up hill.

It's more like you place hurdles in your direct path of travel you wish to run, so that you may prepare for an upcoming race in which you must jump over hurdles. Nobody does that!

 

[Nefarious B]

Does he have followups after the CG? How much % are we looking at across FD for example. Also is this buffered, easy to do?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

As far as I know it is not buffered. Also, it is worth noting (because I was so surprised) that this is DKs only CG. lol

 

[noradseven]

That being said was always ****ing terrified of getting grabbed by DK before this, and I knew we got chain grabbed I thought it was up to 50% or something and I was just screwing up or getting mindgamed, it normally comes up that we only get chain grabbed like 3-4 times so not really 80% more like 40%, but DK gets such a good advantage off of toss you don't want to be stuck in it anyways;.

I still think this match is in our favor because until 180% all of DKs killing moves are woefully unsafe due to down B on reaction. IDK this is from my experience playing Ragnarock.

 

[Zero]

I tried it, it's buffered and the timing is pretty tight.

 

[noradseven]

I tried it, it's buffered and the timing is pretty tight.

Isn't it like more than 3 frames...I can check it I doubt its hard at all.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Isn't it like more than 3 frames...I can check it I doubt its hard at all.

If something is buffered the timing is 11 frames

 

[noradseven]

If something is buffered the timing is 11 frames

if you press Z before the dash starts you shield lol, but yeah I think the timing is still huge, once I find where the timing is in brawl I don't mess it up this aint no GG, or MB where you got 1-3 frame timings all over some of the harder stuff.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

FYI, Will said it was legit but also said he almost never got to use it because it has to be done early and ZSS is hard to grab.

Also ZSS has no safe moves, everything she does can be shieldgrabbed. "Don't get grabbed" isn't a good strategy vs most characters.

 

[TheRockSays]

FYI, Will said it was legit but also said he almost never got to use it because it has to be done early and ZSS is hard to grab.

Also ZSS has no safe moves, everything she does can be shieldgrabbed. "Don't get grabbed" isn't a good strategy vs most characters.

unfornately is true every move ZSS has can be shield grabbed i played Bum(DK player)
he chield grabbed me alot and its also hard to approach a DK because one wrong move
we get punished badly but that can for some other characters to. Even Snakeee had trouble playing with bum.
i would have to check if snakeee played any other DK's out there.

 

[Zero]

"Don't get grabbed" isn't a good strategy vs most characters.

Hold on, what?

 

[noradseven]

FYI, Will said it was legit but also said he almost never got to use it because it has to be done early and ZSS is hard to grab.

Also ZSS has no safe moves, everything she does can be shieldgrabbed. "Don't get grabbed" isn't a good strategy vs most characters.

There is a solution here, do nothing :D, play reactionary, b-air on the way up then double jump away, jump around him DKs best attacks against you will be f-tilt(which can be punished but its tricky), and jab, if he even tries f-smashing/d-smashing/Donkey punching just down B his ***.

Don't get hit/grabbed is normally a good strategy lol.

 

[TheRockSays]

Hold on, what?

Paris was just addressing that don't get grabbed its not really good advice because theres an 80% chance you will get shield grabbed.

There is a solution here, do nothing :D, play reactionary, b-air on the way up then double jump away, jump around him DKs best attacks against you will be f-tilt(which can be punished but its tricky), and jab, if he even tries f-smashing/d-smashing/Donkey punching just down B his ***.

Don't get hit/grabbed is normally a good strategy lol.

You cant jump around a DK he has bigger priority then ZSS. What you need to is estabish a ground game try to use your pieces if that don't use your secondary.

And again you will get hit or grabbed theres no way around thats how they built her we can only if they make a new smash bros they make her better.(Fox up smash Ftw?)

 

[Nefarious B]

Everything she does can be shieldgrabbed *on powershield*. Guess what this is true for every character outside of top tier pretty much.

 

[TheRockSays]

even gannon can power shield grab zss thats how bad it is.

 

[NickRiddle]

Everything she does can be shieldgrabbed *on powershield*. Guess what this is true for every character outside of top tier pretty much.

Just d-tilt and stay crouched. So many people try to standing grab, and miss. Then, d-tilt again. :D

even gannon can power shield grab zss thats how bad it is.

Because Ganon's grab is different from everybody else's.
And, tether-grabs cannot grab us, so that isn't EVERYBODY. ^^,

Nii-paa~

 

[xxpatgxx]

There is a video of Will vs myself where I get standing Cged by his dk.

Here's the link it's brutal and I took a beating!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TE2r11_yw5w

 

[DKwill]

Hey guys, it's Will. Thanks a lot for all the respect and everything, I really appreciate that. But I think it's more that my specific playstyle does very well against ZSS. I play very aggressive, moreso than most other DK's I have seen- and this works against ZSS purely bc running in and powershielding is a great approach toward her.

I remember playing Supermodel From Paris in my first few friendlies at Bum's tournament, that was a lot of fun man good games =)

I do remember standing chaingrabbing you on the Smashville platform haha. Rest assured though, that doesn't just work on ZSS- it works on every character. (with the exception of Marth bc he can dolphin slash you out of the next grab attempt)

I find it to be more of a trick though, and very situational bc it only works from extremely low percents, which is why you find me camping on the platform in the beginning to see what happens xD Just don't get grabbed up there, or better yet don't go up there.

As far as the running d-throw chain grab, the other DK mains and I were discussing this in our boards. It has to be buffered, and it involves a dash grab- DK's worst grab. This is probably why it isn't used very often, and is not very well known. However, to my knowledge after 2-3 d-throws I believe that ZSS can DI far enough away to get out of the next grab, or at least do something to get out of it (maybe spot dodge).

Also, I go for grabs against ZSS more than anything else I think- the only thing I saw as situational was the moving platform CG. Just thought I'd clear a few things up ^_^

Edit: Before playing any other good ZSS mains, I had always played Snakeee for a good hour or so at all of the big tournaments I have been to and have seen him at. That includes both APEX and SNES, ask Snakeee about that matchup ;p

 

[Vinnie]

Can't ZSS down b out of it?

 

[LanceStern]

It's more like you place hurdles in your direct path of travel you wish to run, so that you may prepare for an upcoming race in which you must jump over hurdles. Nobody does that!

Only thing is if the race organizers didn't know what hurdles were, you just gave them the idea to start putting them there in what would otherwise have been a flat race



*before brawl got super competitive*

DK Main : Hay guyz I think D3 has a chain grab on us, looks pretty bad, should we tell them about it?

Other DK mains: Sure! Go ahead! Don't withold information! it's not going to be too bad. We gotta be competitive so we can figure out how to beat it! It'll be fine! Just don't get grabbed!

 

[Zero]

However, to my knowledge after 2-3 d-throws I believe that ZSS can DI far enough away to get out of the next grab, or at least do something to get out of it (maybe spot dodge).

This seems right, thank you for confirming. <3

 

[Vinnie]

*before brawl got super competitive*

DK Main : Hay guyz I think D3 has a chain grab on us, looks pretty bad, should we tell them about it?

Other DK mains: Sure! Go ahead! Don't withold information! it's not going to be too bad. We gotta be competitive so we can figure out how to beat it! It'll be fine! Just don't get grabbed!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEVEkIacNFg&fmt=18

 

[TheRockSays]

Can't ZSS down b out of it?

no its to fast. Will your an awesome player. Pat messed up in the first match but no one is perfect, Pat have u tried running back and then whipping(side B) for me it seems to connect alot against PHAT characters because it comes out a bit later just check it out. One stage you want to avoid is SmashVille i hate that stage with a passion. Also try to reduce the usage of the downsmash if its not working as much as it should.

 

[xxpatgxx]

You're probably right TheRock I need to do the stepping side B more on bigger chars as opposed to the jumping side B. I wonder if it can **** D3.

 

[Nefarious B]

stutter step side b is beastly against DDD. also once they start getting used to it and running up trying to power shield every time, pivot grab is a great mixup especially if you do it tactically to give you a CG

 

[ph00tbag]

Why are there videos of two people missing the tech on DK's stagespike in this thread? It's like the easiest move in the game to tech.

 

[noradseven]

Why are there videos of two people missing the tech on DK's stagespike in this thread? It's like the easiest move in the game to tech.

Because they arn't used to it, then again even I can normally tech DK stagespike har har, not only that with ZSS mash up B and you live until 70-80% some anyways so...

 

[Zero]

Hold Up. l

 

[B.A.M.]

^^^ /this thread. Actually eff that its about time DK gets some CG love.