Dixie Kong's Barrel Of Support Spirits. Farewell Everyone, Thank You ALL For Making This Thread An Excellent Place For DK Fans!

[scoobymcsnack]

Like the title says, Dixie is one of the few true Nintendo all-stars not put in the game yet. I support.

 

[DeniroSerafim]

Can I get added to the list of supporters?

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

If there is DLC, Dixie is in. Dixie might be in anyways.

She will be an Isabelle like character. Takes less resources as a semi-clone.

Besides, the DLC period for this game will most likely go on for years, they can make up for lost time like this.

And maybe even toss in, Cranky, Funky and that one orangutan with a funny face, if they feel generous.

 

[letsgetsmashing]

10 Reasons I want Dixie Kong in Smash.

1. She's one of the last Nintendo All-Stars not in the game
2. DK is still underrepresented
3. She's one of DK Country's four biggest characters (along w/ Diddy, DK, and K. Rool)
4. She has a moveset that could be implicated into Smash amazingly
5. Always good to see more females
6. IMO she has the brightest personality of the Kongs
7. She could use her guitar and hair primarily, which would be cool
8. She was in the first ever video game I played
9. She stars in DKC 2 & 3, which are arguable the two best games
10. She was planned in Brawl so cut, so it's finally her time.

 

[Luigifan18]

Hey, can I be added to the supporters list, please?

 

[Turnips and Daisies.]

Annoyingly the problem is that she IS a viable option for an Echo, simply because she shares Diddy's shape, size and basic proportions and can perform almost all of his moves within reason. It doesn't matter that it betrays her character and squanders her potential. It COULD theoretically happen, even if we know it shouldn't. And everyone there will be quick to point it out.

That said, I also wish to squash misinformation and nip it in the bud when it comes to Dixie's potential, so I still agree it's worth it to show up and say "she can be an Echo technically, but here's why she SHOULDN'T be supported as one." Most people believe she can only be an Echo simply because they don't know how distinctive she actually is. Kinda like the user Turnips and Daisies.

Dixie is definitely distinct from Diddy in key ways.

• She can use her hair for flying.

• She can grab stuff with her hair.

• She runs a bit slower than Diddy.

But I am saying that she can still do these things if she was an echo (except maybe the running part) because technically the rest of her tools are the same, echo fighters have the same amount of dev tools available to them as newcomers. Anything that’s really off like the tail attacks would certainly be addressed.

It’s why we can see stuff like Chrom’s Up B. It’s just that they are easier to balance because the characters are close enough.

Isabelle for example has 100% unique animations for everything she does, the vast majority of her moves and attributes are unique, and she isn’t aggressive like Villager so most of his tools such as an axe or a bowling ball or a slingshot would be out of place.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Besides, the DLC period for this game will most likely go on for years, they can make up for lost time like this.

And maybe even toss in, Cranky, Funky and that one orangutan with a funny face, if they feel generous.

The base roster is already basically the dream roster, it just needs Dixie and Banjo-Kazooie to make it perfect. I can't imagine how crazy the DLC roster is going to be.

 

[BirthNote]

Welcome to the newest members:
Ciro Blanco
Sabertooth
scoobymcsnack
DeniroSerafim

Thank you all for showing your support and joining the discussion. My apologies for taking so long to add some of you.

EDIT: Luigifan18 you're on the list too now.

 

[pepiux]

Where does this sentiment come from? Why would this be Dixie's last chance? The DK series is going no where. Neither is Smash. I just don't understand why some think Ultimate is the final frontier or something. Even if it's Sakurai's last Smash, someone else will take the reigns. That simple.

I meant that Tropical getting acknowledged in Smash U is her last chance to get in for this game specifically

I know she'll be a contender for future ones. Though being planned for Brawl and then missing the next two games wouldn't make things bright for Dixie I'm afraid.

 

[Arymle Roseanne]

Dixie is definitely distinct from Diddy in key ways.

• She can use her hair for flying.

• She can grab stuff with her hair.

• She runs a bit slower than Diddy.

But I am saying that she can still do these things if she was an echo (except maybe the running part) because technically the rest of her tools are the same, echo fighters have the same amount of dev tools available to them as newcomers. Anything that’s really off like the tail attacks would certainly be addressed.

It’s why we can see stuff like Chrom’s Up B. It’s just that they are easier to balance because the characters are close enough.
I really hate to respond to this huge case of lols worthy hi
Isabelle for example has 100% unique animations for everything she does, the vast majority of her moves and attributes are unique, and she isn’t aggressive like Villager so most of his tools such as an axe or a bowling ball or a slingshot would be out of place.

I definitely can tell you're memory man, it's a shame you haven't changed your ways all this time even when you actually got your most wanted.

 

[Aeon Lupin]

The difference is that the DK series in popular in Japan, unlike Metroid.

I think DK got screwed simple because the series is off Sakurai's radar. Not because he hates it but because he probably doesn't even think about it much. He's only human, and that means he's probably only played so many games and as a result only considers so many characters to get in Smash. Wario Land is worse off than DK.

The next Smash is likely going to overhaul the roster. There's no way they can continue to add to this one. So who knows what the next Smash might be like. They might start over from square one.

That doesn't mean Dixie can't make it eventually.

 

[BirthNote]

http://www.japanesenintendo.com/post/178486295859/amp?__twitter_impression=true

This bodes well for Dixie's moveset. Even as far back as DKC2, Dixie has animations that differ from Diddy and even moreso in Tropical Freeze. Sakurai basically said they play the character's games to get a reference for how they'd be in Smash, and it should come across early and clearly that Dixie's not a glorified palette swap. The only worry from this translation is if she'll even be in.

 

[Jurae818]

Stand strong, Dixie fans. There's a chance for her to make it. They can't get away with making her a Diddy echo, she's too complex for that. Even DKL2 had her distinguished enough from Diddy.

 

[Arymle Roseanne]

Stand strong, Dixie fans. There's a chance for her to make it. They can't get away with making her a Diddy echo, she's too complex for that. Even DKL2 had her distinguished enough from Diddy.

Love that vote of confidence you're giving us, thanks bub!

On the subject of DK Land, I honestly liked 3 the most. The original felt annoying at times(I despise those cloud levels) and I felt that Land 2 tried too hard to be like it's SNES counterpart. Land 3 felt just right in my opinion, fun fact Japan got an exclusive color version of the game.

 

[Strong DK]

Are we gonna talk remakes of the original DKC games? Have we gone this far that this is necessary? I do think now you say that, that it’s a huge possibility. Or have games more inspired around remaking the story in some way?

I could see remakes being more styled around Returns and Tropical Freeze, but with camera angles more like the original games, more zoomed in. 2.5D background effects and level design could also be included. But most of the original levels remade in a way. And have more content, and maybe add additional abilities for the Kongs!

You speak of DKC3’s remake but I’d want the first game first. And it has huge potential. First I want the original buddy system returning but with more added debt, and possible pair up mechanics similar to DKC Returns and Tropical Freeze. DKC1 lacked this, so it would benefit the most from a more deeper system. And since it was so fast paced, design the abilities of DK and Diddy around them.

: New Abilties include a more powerful Ground Slap attack, and its powered up by using? Bananas. That’s right. More about that later. Charged it can freeze stronger enemies for longer. The more bananas you use the stronger it gets and can take out smaller enemies in a row. And smaller enemies can be picked up and thrown as projectiles. This gives DK a slow but steady pace and more momentum. He keeps his roll attack and it retains its original speed. Using ‘roll’ while not moving let’s DK punch. When charged you use up bananas and can do a attack much like DK’s Giant Punch from Smash. Jumping on the head is also still an option and he now gets to take out stronger enemies easier than Diddy like he did in DKC1.

: Diddy remains the speedy character but this trait of him gets a little more debt this time. Diddy can power up his cartwheel to a charged cartwheel attack utilizing bananas as power up and can take out hordes of smaller enemies in a row much faster than DK. Regular roll is also a little faster. Charged cartwheel can still take out Klumps, but regular cartwheels now take two times. When not pressing the roll option while not moving, Diddy shoots the Peanut Popgun. With Bananas he can power up the Popgun to a Golden Banana Gun that can take out stronger enemies, but it’s very very costly in Bananas. Peanuts can stun enemies, and when Diddy comes close to stunned weaker enemies he kicks them to take them out. Since it’s a retelling of DKC1, Diddy doesn’t get the Jetpack this time.

Bananas would be used for powering up attacks, and healing damage you take from enemies. Levels could be filled with more enemies and more collectibles and ways to find bananas. Bonus games should be included, and the giant bananas you get for clearing a boss should also increase your banana count by a lot.

Losing a life wouldn’t happen as fast, but you must keep looking for bananas to power yourself through the stages fast and beating enemies. Using powered up attacks decreases your fuel to heal as well after all, but the level design will be so that using a Kongs abilities will either solve things faster or easier overall. It won’t be needed to make jumps for example, but take out 4 to 5 Krusha or Klump in a row?

Since the original DKC bosses where often dismissed as too generic, let’s now make them all mini bosses. Real Gwanty, Queen Zinger, Giant Necky, and Dumb Drum annoys you a lot during a level or so and the boss of the Kremling factories goes to someone else. Speaking of mini bosses, there should be more. And enemies get more aggressive AI to make the game more challenging. Kremlings especially will be acting really hostile, while other enemies will only hurt you if you come in their path, those being more the regular animals as Gnawty, Zinger, aquatic enemies except Chomp. Kremlings will team up more to take you down and maybe the game should have options to control both Kong’s separately at times in Single Player and play similar to the Retro games in Two Player mode.

New bosses I could think of are General Klump and General Krusha who are beefed up versions of their respective Kremling original but seriously beefed up. Not as big and menacing as King K.Rool, but dangerous still. And they get more styled as army generals, being real military in their ways and utmost loyal to K.Rool. Who in the meanwhile wouldn’t give a damn about their deaths either.

K.Rool will be made more menacing and leave more influence on the story. We will encounter him first in the Kremling factories and he leaves us to battle General Klump as he watches. As he lies dying before his King, K.Rool just laughs at the Kongs and leaves the place, giving a overall better sense of intimidation around him and style him even more as a complete mad man.

Maybe let us fight K.Rool a time before the end fight, and him being saved last moment by his last loyal general, General Krusha. And we beat him before he gets away. Maybe doing his very first death fake out there. And as General Krusha gets defeated by the Kongs and we get a sense of false victory, K.Rool stands up and casually escapes with his speed. Not giving a total about nothing but his survival. We must learn through the story how massive the Kremling Army is and how much fear AND motivation by fear he inspires in his Kremling soldiers. Stopping him is the only sure way to ensure victory. This motivates the player more to attack as many Kremlings as you want, and especially King K.Rool. The life of the other Kongs is at stake after all. Same with Animal Buddies, who you befriend for survival reasons and gets their own cutscene and cinematics.

Game doesn’t need to be too serious and still obviously cartoony but a clear theme of survival is always present and plays with the music. David Wise must of course again do the music, but ideally use some deeper tones to set the mood perfectly. You must feel powerful yet constant on the lookout for food (bananas) to survive and fight off your natural enemy. This also would explain why the Banana Hoard is so important, and why the Tikis wanted to use the bananas power for fuel.

Gone abroad with this, but that’s how I sort of envision a remake of the original DKC in a modern setting that’s still mostly a plat former, but does its own thing to really stand apart from anything else and digs deeper into a more animalistic theme based on basic survival, yet remains cartoony enough to be Donkey Kong Country. A new Donkey Kong experience like we’ve been promised for a while. It uses the original cast in a brand new way, deepens their character or puts it in a different light when needed, and being true to the very root of what made the game what it was. There should still be mine carts, Barrel Canons, bonus rooms, and all other elements that made DKC what it is, but styled around as more action paced with combat against enemies, a bit of exploration, and using the bananas for a new goal.

I like your way of thinking

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

http://www.japanesenintendo.com/post/178486295859/amp?__twitter_impression=true

This bodes well for Dixie's moveset. Even as far back as DKC2, Dixie has animations that differ from Diddy and even moreso in Tropical Freeze. Sakurai basically said they play the character's games to get a reference for how they'd be in Smash, and it should come across early and clearly that Dixie's not a glorified palette swap. The only worry from this translation is if she'll even be in.

This is what honestly gives me the most hope, we pretty much know for a fact that he played the DKC original trilogy so that he could design K Rool's moveset, it's kind of hard to ignore dixie and her inherent differences when compared to diddy in those games (if you played diddy the same way you did dixie you probably wouldn't get very far lol), especially since her name is literally in the title of one of those games.

 

[CaptainMapleSyrup]

They can't get away with making her a Diddy echo, she's too complex for that. Even DKL2 had her distinguished enough from Diddy.

I will be ecstatic for you guys if she makes it in as a unique character with the same approach as Isabelle. The most I’m willing to hope for now is a Kong family hybrid echo, not just Diddy, in the same style as Chrom but obviously requiring her own unique hair whip and slam animations as well as a longer reach grapple. But then, with all the work going into making those animations, I guess she would be classed as unique? That’s what happened with Isabelle right? Uh, maybe I am supporting a unique character in that case... Sheesh, the line that separates an echo from a unique is so blurry at the moment.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I like your way of thinking

Thanks man, I try my best. It's just one of those ideas I had for a DKC game that just popped up. Also, I was quite medicated / meditated when I wrote that, so that helped :D

 

[KirbyWorshipper2465]

The base roster is already basically the dream roster, it just needs Dixie and Banjo-Kazooie to make it perfect. I can't imagine how crazy the DLC roster is going to be.

I'd say anything that's not tied down to an AT position, a stage function or a non-video game license is fair game. Background appearance characters are acceptable too.

 

[BirthNote]

Hey, does anyone wanna contribute to Ultinarok 's community moveset? I wanna put it in the OP but it's incomplete.

 

[Ultinarok]

Hey, does anyone wanna contribute to Ultinarok 's community moveset? I wanna put it in the OP but it's incomplete.

Indeed. I still have some unfinished ideas from users that I may just improvise on if they don't feel like elaborating more on the moves, but she still has all of her tilts, her jab, her Side Special, Up Smash, her bair, her dair and her standard (non-cargo) throws left for people to contribute on. I have the rest at least conceptualized, although some need damage values or details worked out. If anyone wants to know what these unfinished moves are so they can fill in the details, just let me know.

Also multiple contributions are cool as long as it isn't one person spamming them, as myself and a couple others have decided two moves, so you can call another move if you want BirthNote.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Indeed. I still have some unfinished ideas from users that I may just improvise on if they don't feel like elaborating more on the moves, but she still has all of her tilts, her jab, her Side Special, Up Smash, her bair, her dair and her standard (non-cargo) throws left for people to contribute on. I have the rest at least conceptualized, although some need damage values or details worked out. If anyone wants to know what these unfinished moves are so they can fill in the details, just let me know.

Also multiple contributions are cool as long as it isn't one person spamming them, as myself and a couple others have decided two moves, so you can call another move if you want BirthNote.

I have an idea for a side special, it could be a command grab where she uses her hair, her regular grab would be pretty much the same as diddy's. The command grab is much slower but has significantly more range. Just like isabelle's command grab she can throw grabbed opponents in any direction to lead into follow ups, it can be used in the air, as well as letting her pick up items or projectiles like Link's arrow or samus' missiles. she wouldn't be able to grab energy based projectiles however since her grabbing a fireball wouldn't make a whole lot of sense.

 

[SethTheMage]

Was lurking SmashFAQs when I came across this topic:
gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/77047349

Apparently, we might have evidence as to the identity of our Prima leaker: David S J Hodgson. The supposed smoking gun? Hyphens. Looking through his Twitter, he is one of the writers at Prima, and he tends to use hyphens in his writing, like the leaker uses "already-long". I found a post where he used "lavishly-redone" to describe a revised version of the guide for Skyward Sword, as well as "in-between" in another post. It may not necessarily be him, but the leaker knew when the Prima guide was going to be announced, as they posted the leak the day before news of the guide went public.

Now, what could this mean if it really is him? I think we can all agree that the leak in its entirety is very difficult to believe, especially with the recent comments made by Sakurai. David is a self-described "writer of tall tales" in his Twitter bio, so it's not out of the question that he fabricated a few details to throw Nintendo off and/or troll the community. The most likely culprits for this imo would be Vault Boy, Mach Rider, Black Knight, and Black Shadow, as well as Wii Remote Safety Man in the AT list. Granted, this could still mean that the entire leak was fabricated, given that the leaker's birthday is listed as April 1st.

In the event that at least some of the leak is based in fact, could Dixie be one of the legit newcomers? I want to believe so, but I'm going to wait and see. Minecon's this weekend, so we could see Steve be announced there.

 

[Gobliiin]

I really hope so Dixie being in as a newcomer with an amazing K.Rool would be everything i need to made this game ultimate for me!

 

[Koopaul]

This is what honestly gives me the most hope, we pretty much know for a fact that he played the DKC original trilogy so that he could design K Rool's moveset, it's kind of hard to ignore dixie and her inherent differences when compared to diddy in those games (if you played diddy the same way you did dixie you probably wouldn't get very far lol), especially since her name is literally in the title of one of those games.

I don't know. Sakurai has played the Fire Emblem games and that didn't stop him from making Lucina a Marth echo even though she have different sword techniques and capabilities from him.

It wouldn't be out of ignorance that Sakurai makes Dixie an echo, it would be out of necessity in a more time constrained game with 70+ characters to balance.

Isabelle essentially escaped an echoey fate by being a different size from Villager and being a less violent character (it would not look right for Isabelle to hit people with an axe). Will Sakurai feel as strongly about Dixie? Or will a ponytail helicopter Up Special be good enough? Only time will tell. All I can say, at this point, be happy if Dixie gets in at all. It's safe to assume only have a tiny amount of newcomers left. I think Dixie might be in a safer position if she was an echo fighter.

Sorry to sound negative but that report about newcomer reveals slowing down makes things pretty risky. I really want to see Dixie in this game in some form. And absolutely not an Assist Trophy.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Plus, on the whole echo discussion, Dixie was originally planned to be paired with Diddy in Brawl like the Ice Climbers but proved to be too difficult to implement, probably because they had different moves from each other. This tells us that Diddy and Dixie probably used a very similar model, making her a prime candidate for an echo. Like I've been saying, give Dixie a new dash attack and a new up special and it'd pretty much be set.

 

[Koopaul]

Well there's no telling what Dixie was going to be like in Brawl. All we can do is speculate based on the development of Ultimate on how Dixie might turn out for this game.

But yeah I get what you are saying. If Dixie was a character similar to Diddy in Brawl then Sakurai might still have the mindset of making Dixie off of Diddy. Even moreso now that echo fighters are so prevalent.

 

[Diddy Kong]

We can already clearly see how Dixie would've worked if implemented with Diddy's moveset. Diddy's Down B is something that felt very much shoehorned in, like a last minute change of sort. It was obviously meant for a switch mechanic between Diddy and Dixie, and Side B would've probably been a throwing attack of sorts. Am glad they didn't went through with it, as with the complications, Diddy and Dixie might also have been cut for Smash 4 like Ice Climbers. Or we would've gotten them seperate, like Sheik and Charizard and the like. Maybe Diddy would be alone and Dixie cut from the moveset entirely? I think it's better to have her as a Echo than meet that particular fate.

 

[BirthNote]

Plus, on the whole echo discussion, Dixie was originally planned to be paired with Diddy in Brawl like the Ice Climbers but proved to be too difficult to implement, probably because they had different moves from each other. This tells us that Diddy and Dixie probably used a very similar model, making her a prime candidate for an echo. Like I've been saying, give Dixie a new dash attack and a new up special and it'd pretty much be set.

If Diddy and Dixie were paired, they'd likely behave like they would've in DKC2: swapping, as it would be true to the series, just like Pokemon Trainer does. That means they'd be 2 characters with one slot, and would need enough differentiation to justify switching. Looking at her Brawl trophy description it's safe to say the team knew they had key distinctions in function, so the whole Monkey Ice Climbers idea doesn't hold much water. We know that they were supposed to play together, but people assumed they'd take the Ice Climbers route when it'd make more sense to take the DKC route, being DKC characters and all.

 

[pepiux]

If Diddy and Dixie were paired, they'd likely behave like they would've in DKC2: swapping, as it would be true to the series, just like Pokemon Trainer does. That means they'd be 2 characters with one slot, and would need enough differentiation to justify switching. Looking at her Brawl trophy description it's safe to say the team knew they had key distinctions in function, so the whole Monkey Ice Climbers idea doesn't hold much water. We know that they were supposed to play together, but people assumed they'd take the Ice Climbers route when it'd make more sense to take the DKC route, being DKC characters and all.

Exactly. The idea of Dixie as Diddy's partner in DKC2 is already proof enough of their differences. She was created with different abilities in mind.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

I don't know. Sakurai has played the Fire Emblem games and that didn't stop him from making Lucina a Marth echo even though she have different sword techniques and capabilities from him.

It wouldn't be out of ignorance that Sakurai makes Dixie an echo, it would be out of necessity in a more time constrained game with 70+ characters to balance.

Isabelle essentially escaped an echoey fate by being a different size from Villager and being a less violent character (it would not look right for Isabelle to hit people with an axe). Will Sakurai feel as strongly about Dixie? Or will a ponytail helicopter Up Special be good enough? Only time will tell. All I can say, at this point, be happy if Dixie gets in at all. It's safe to assume only have a tiny amount of newcomers left. I think Dixie might be in a safer position if she was an echo fighter.

Sorry to sound negative but that report about newcomer reveals slowing down makes things pretty risky. I really want to see Dixie in this game in some form. And absolutely not an Assist Trophy.

I don't think the lucina comparison works well, yeah they fight differently but they still both swing a sword, a sword that is technically the same one, and that's pretty much it, in recent games I believe they even shared animations and Lucina did pretend to be marth after all.

If sakurai really wants a character to be in he won't compromise by making them a clone, especially since dlc exists now. It's just a matter of if Sakurai WANTS her as a clone or not. And given how she would likely not have been a clone when planned for brawl I think it's pretty safe to say he wouldn't.

 

[Koopaul]

Well what about Dark Samus or Daisy? With Dark Samus' victory having her split in two, and her assist trophy in SSB4 having that phazon shockwave, it is obvious that Sakurai is aware that Dark Samus has unique abilities. Yet he still made her an echo fighter with all the same moves as Samus but with altered animations. It's clear that he will sacrifice unique characters with unique abilities just so he can make an easier character.

Hell, just look at Ganondorf back in Melee. Don't think that Dixie is immune.

 

[ZeroJanitor]

im pretty darn sure dixie would never be an echo and the only reason people are afraid of it is because its a popular idea among fans right now

but can we stop saying "well ganondorf was just a clone of falcon in melee so it could happen to dixie too", melee was 17 years ago and the design philosophies in smash have changed SO much since then. the only reason ganondorf is even still kinda like captain falcon is because his moveset was grandfathered into future titles, and even then they've made him a lot more unique since then.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Well what about Dark Samus or Daisy? With Dark Samus' victory having her split in two, and her assist trophy in SSB4 having that phazon shockwave, it is obvious that Sakurai is aware that Dark Samus has unique abilities. Yet he still made her an echo fighter with all the same moves as Samus but with altered animations. It's clear that he will sacrifice unique characters with unique abilities just so he can make an easier character.

Hell, just look at Ganondorf back in Melee. Don't think that Dixie is immune.

Dixie has a lot of things over dark samus tbh tho, most notably popularity and relevance, it's possible that he'd make her an echo but I'm doubtful they'd plan her as one.

 

[BirthNote]

Well what about Dark Samus or Daisy? With Dark Samus' victory having her split in two, and her assist trophy in SSB4 having that phazon shockwave, it is obvious that Sakurai is aware that Dark Samus has unique abilities. Yet he still made her an echo fighter with all the same moves as Samus but with altered animations. It's clear that he will sacrifice unique characters with unique abilities just so he can make an easier character.

Hell, just look at Ganondorf back in Melee. Don't think that Dixie is immune.

Problem with Dark Samus is her time has passed. Smash 4 was her greatest chance as it focuses on Wii/DS era content, and with Ultimate's era being Wii U and 3DS + Ballot Data as well as Metroid's time going forward, Dark Samus is highly unlikely to show up again. Dark Samus is dead and gone in her series, even with there being a MP34 in development; her place is an arc-villain is cemented. Her debut now is simply a bonus, like all the other Echoes.

Dixie on the other hand is likely to show up again, has more significance than being an arc-villain from a subseries, respectably popular, and is within Ultimate's era of focus. Thanks to Tropical Freeze, she'd have more priority than Dark Samus, whose final game was in 2007.

Also, people point to Ganondorf as an example, but let's not forget the circumstances of Melee: rushed development cycle, high stress from Sakurai, half the roster were proto-Echoes and Sakurai was on the verge of leaving Nintendo. Not much of those circumstances line up with Ultimate's, and as much as we loved Melee, Sakurai hated working on it and the direction we took it in. He struck a better balance in 4 and Ultimate, but let's not use Ganondorf as the trumpcard.

 

[pepiux]

Was lurking SmashFAQs when I came across this topic:
gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/77047349

Apparently, we might have evidence as to the identity of our Prima leaker: David S J Hodgson. The supposed smoking gun? Hyphens. Looking through his Twitter, he is one of the writers at Prima, and he tends to use hyphens in his writing, like the leaker uses "already-long". I found a post where he used "lavishly-redone" to describe a revised version of the guide for Skyward Sword, as well as "in-between" in another post. It may not necessarily be him, but the leaker knew when the Prima guide was going to be announced, as they posted the leak the day before news of the guide went public.

Now, what could this mean if it really is him? I think we can all agree that the leak in its entirety is very difficult to believe, especially with the recent comments made by Sakurai. David is a self-described "writer of tall tales" in his Twitter bio, so it's not out of the question that he fabricated a few details to throw Nintendo off and/or troll the community. The most likely culprits for this imo would be Vault Boy, Mach Rider, Black Knight, and Black Shadow, as well as Wii Remote Safety Man in the AT list. Granted, this could still mean that the entire leak was fabricated, given that the leaker's birthday is listed as April 1st.

In the event that at least some of the leak is based in fact, could Dixie be one of the legit newcomers? I want to believe so, but I'm going to wait and see. Minecon's this weekend, so we could see Steve be announced there.

This is interesting. Assuming this is true, it could mean the information is half-fabricated if the leaker was smart. Hope Dixie was not part of the fake info if that's the case.

Problem with Dark Samus is her time has passed. Smash 4 was her greatest chance as it focuses on Wii/DS era content, and with Ultimate's era being Wii U and 3DS + Ballot Data as well as Metroid's time going forward, Dark Samus is highly unlikely to show up again. Dark Samus is dead and gone in her series, even with there being a MP34 in development; her place is an arc-villain is cemented. Her debut now is simply a bonus, like all the other Echoes.

Dixie on the other hand is likely to show up again, has more significance than being an arc-villain from a subseries, respectably popular, and is within Ultimate's era of focus. Thanks to Tropical Freeze, she'd have more priority than Dark Samus, whose final game was in 2007.

Also, people point to Ganondorf as an example, but let's not forget the circumstances of Melee: rushed development cycle, high stress from Sakurai, half the roster were proto-Echoes and Sakurai was on the verge of leaving Nintendo. Not much of those circumstances line up with Ultimate's, and as much as we loved Melee, Sakurai hated working on it and the direction we took it in. He struck a better balance in 4 and Ultimate, but let's not use Ganondorf as the trumpcard.

This, again and again. Dark Samus had zero chance to make it into the game if Echoes were not a thing.

 

[Ultinarok]

I have an idea for a side special, it could be a command grab where she uses her hair, her regular grab would be pretty much the same as diddy's. The command grab is much slower but has significantly more range. Just like isabelle's command grab she can throw grabbed opponents in any direction to lead into follow ups, it can be used in the air, as well as letting her pick up items or projectiles like Link's arrow or samus' missiles. she wouldn't be able to grab energy based projectiles however since her grabbing a fireball wouldn't make a whole lot of sense.

Nice move idea! I kind of like this idea so she can have conventional throws (all of which are undefined). Do you want to add any other details like damage, unusual knockback properties etc? Also what would you like it to be named? All Specials have names after all.

Was lurking SmashFAQs when I came across this topic:
gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/77047349

Apparently, we might have evidence as to the identity of our Prima leaker: David S J Hodgson. The supposed smoking gun? Hyphens. Looking through his Twitter, he is one of the writers at Prima, and he tends to use hyphens in his writing, like the leaker uses "already-long". I found a post where he used "lavishly-redone" to describe a revised version of the guide for Skyward Sword, as well as "in-between" in another post. It may not necessarily be him, but the leaker knew when the Prima guide was going to be announced, as they posted the leak the day before news of the guide went public.

Now, what could this mean if it really is him? I think we can all agree that the leak in its entirety is very difficult to believe, especially with the recent comments made by Sakurai. David is a self-described "writer of tall tales" in his Twitter bio, so it's not out of the question that he fabricated a few details to throw Nintendo off and/or troll the community. The most likely culprits for this imo would be Vault Boy, Mach Rider, Black Knight, and Black Shadow, as well as Wii Remote Safety Man in the AT list. Granted, this could still mean that the entire leak was fabricated, given that the leaker's birthday is listed as April 1st.

In the event that at least some of the leak is based in fact, could Dixie be one of the legit newcomers? I want to believe so, but I'm going to wait and see. Minecon's this weekend, so we could see Steve be announced there.

I wouldn't consider Black Knight an indication of something being amiss at all. Dude actually has some decent reasoning and possibly even direct evidence in his favor atm, and he's a viable Ike Echo, in addition to being popular as hell and being a legacy character whose been a popular pick for as long as Dixie. I wouldn't call him a red flag at all.

Black Shadow also, but to a much smaller degree. He's honestly hurt by the existence of still-partially-cloned Ganondorf and F Zero being dead and already represented more than anything else. But he's not a farfetched inclusion, just an unlikely one, unless we had actually gotten Canondorf.

But I agree on the other two. I mean, Vault Boy? Really?

 

[True Blue Warrior]

I think the biggest thing differentiating Echo Fighters from everyone else can be found from this article. (Sourcegaming doesn't work at this moment, though this section below was something Sakurai stated)

Normally, each fighter battles a variety of other characters, and we use these results as feedback for how to continue balancing a character. However, adding even one more extra fighter increases the number of battles that must be done against the entire cast, and it increases the amount of playtesting necessary by a lot. By balancing the clones to have almost the same strength as the original character, we’re reducing the workload necessary.

So Daisy, Richter, Chrom and Dark Samus were probably also balanced similarly to Lucina and Dark Pit. Dr. Mario may not have been considered an echo because he's being balanced against the entire roster.

In terms of Dixie, my feeling is that the biggest thing that would probably exclude her from being a viable echo fighter is that her most iconic ability that she absolutely needs in order to feel like herself, her Helicopter Spin, would alone dramatically make her different enough where simply balancing against Diddy alone may not be enough and unlike Chrom, there's only one character with a similar enough body-type that she could borrow moves. Given that the trend with every Echo Fighter seems to be having no unique moves (outside of a Final Smash) of their own (possibly for balancing) and characters like Young Link and Dr. Mario not being counted as Echo Fighters, could the Helicopter Spin be enough to disqualify Dixie as an Echo Fighter material? I personally think so.

 

[Koopaul]

Problem with Dark Samus is her time has passed. Smash 4 was her greatest chance as it focuses on Wii/DS era content, and with Ultimate's era being Wii U and 3DS + Ballot Data as well as Metroid's time going forward, Dark Samus is highly unlikely to show up again. Dark Samus is dead and gone in her series, even with there being a MP34 in development; her place is an arc-villain is cemented. Her debut now is simply a bonus, like all the other Echoes.

Dixie on the other hand is likely to show up again, has more significance than being an arc-villain from a subseries, respectably popular, and is within Ultimate's era of focus. Thanks to Tropical Freeze, she'd have more priority than Dark Samus, whose final game was in 2007.

I really don't think a character being dead has any impact on whether a character would be an echo fighter or not. K. Rool was a dead character. He hadn't been around for even longer than Dark Samus.

The status of the character is not as important as character development priority. Sakurai said that because the top priority was bringing everyone back that there wouldn't be too many newcomers. What that means is the very few unique newcomers that they decided to make had to be the absolute most requested/popular characters. Everyone else would be an echo fighter or an Assist Trophy like Shovel Knight.

That's why I think Dixie will be an echo or not in at all. Because of priorities. Sakurai prioritized bringing back all the old fighters plus Ridley, Simon, K. Rool, etc. And because Dixie can easily be realized as an echo, it's likely she will be.

I don't think some of you realize what "not a lot of new fighters" means and how the competition for that spot to be a unique fighter is incredibly steep.

I think there are still a lot if people in the Smash Board community expecting quite a bit more, when the reality is that we probably only have two more unique fighters left and maybe three echo fighters.

I suppose if she doesn't make it in the base game there's a possibility she will make it in as DLC. But I doubt that would have been Sakurai's plan all along and it would most likely be due to fan outcry that he adds Dixie. That's why he added Mewtwo, Roy and Lucas. Otherwise the DLC was based on gaming legends like Cloud and Ryu, or promotional characters like Corrin and Bayonetta (and yes I think Bayonetta was added for promotional reasons and not the Ballot).

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

I really don't think a character being dead has any impact on whether a character would be an echo fighter or not. K. Rool was a dead character. He hadn't been around for even longer than Dark Samus.

The status of the character is not as important as character development priority. Sakurai said that because the top priority was bringing everyone back that there wouldn't be too many newcomers. What that means is the very few unique newcomers that they decided to make had to be the absolute most requested/popular characters. Everyone else would be an echo fighter or an Assist Trophy like Shovel Knight.

That's why I think Dixie will be an echo or not in at all. Because of priorities. Sakurai prioritized bringing back all the old fighters plus Ridley, Simon, K. Rool, etc. And because Dixie can easily be realized as an echo, it's likely she will be.

I don't think some of you realize what "not a lot of new fighters" means and how the competition for that spot to be a unique fighter is incredibly steep.

I think there are still a lot if people in the Smash Board community expecting quite a bit more, when the reality is that we probably only have two more unique fighters left and maybe three echo fighters.

I suppose if she doesn't make it in the base game there's a possibility she will make it in as DLC. But I doubt that would have been Sakurai's plan all along and it would most likely be due to fan outcry that he adds Dixie. That's why he added Mewtwo, Roy and Lucas. Otherwise the DLC was based on gaming legends like Cloud and Ryu, or promotional characters like Corrin and Bayonetta (and yes I think Bayonetta was added for promotional reasons and not the Ballot).

Isabelle being in as a semi-clone kind of destroys this argument, Dixie is probably more popular than her and just as relevant as her. And she makes even more sense as an echo than dixie does.

And being dead does matter, K Rool is a very specific case because he's just SO popular.

I don't think we're gonna get more than maybe 3 unique characters but I think it's very possible dixie is one of those.