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Dixie Kong's Barrel Of Support Spirits. Farewell Everyone, Thank You ALL For Making This Thread An Excellent Place For DK Fans!

RetrogamerMax

Smash Legend
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RetrogamerMax2
Did some more character icons for MK, because why stop at just adding Dixie! Next will be more vehicle ideas, but those are more complicated so that will probably take longer :laugh:



https://imgur.com/Astapje
This would easily get me to buy the game again on Switch, what an amazing addition this would be.
You're missing someone!

View attachment 186864

The ORIGINAL Rare bear.

Seriously though, great job!
This is Amazing!
I got MK8:D, but I would love for the game to continue.
K. Rool, Diddy and Dixie are my most wanted, but never really thought about Cranky for Mario Kart, but I think he would be real cool too.
Funky? Yeah, he worked in MK Wii, so, why not.
Could you imagine the whole Kong family and the Kremlings all be racers in Mario Kart?! That would be a dream came true and I would never ask for any other characters in Mario Kart ever again.
 
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shocktarts17

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Could you imagine the whole Kong family and the Kremlings all be racers in Mario Kart?! That would be a dream came true and I would never ask for any other characters in Mario Kart ever again.
Honestly I still don't understand why they haven't make some of the party games like Mario Kart and Mario Party crossovers after seeing the success of Smash. It's not like we're ever going to get a Zelda racing game or a Kirby Party, let them show up in those games! Obviously not on the scale of Smash but just getting Kirby in Mario Kart would be perfect lol.
 

RetrogamerMax

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RetrogamerMax2
Honestly I still don't understand why they haven't make some of the party games like Mario Kart and Mario Party crossovers after seeing the success of Smash. It's not like we're ever going to get a Zelda racing game or a Kirby Party, let them show up in those games! Obviously not on the scale of Smash but just getting Kirby in Mario Kart would be perfect lol.
The Warioware cast would be so cool to see in Mario Kart as well. It would give them more exposure and would increase the chances of the popular Ashley to get in Smash.
 
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ChronoBound

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Sep 20, 2006
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8,998
As I said yesterday, there are lot of responses that I wanted to individually respond to (aside from the set I individually responded to yesterday).

I generally avoided the debate prior to the game's release about what Dixie Kong's status should be (fully unique, semi-clone, or echo).

One important development is that we have seen how much echoes are allowed to differ.

For the most part, the main difference echoes have over simple alternate costumes (like Alpha and the Koopalings) is that they:
1. Have their own slots (though its optional for them to share it with the character they are echoing).
2. Have their own palettes (though Alpha has this too), unique taunts, and unique victory animations.

Many echoes (Dark Pit, Lucina, Richter, Ken) do not even have unique idle animations. Many of them have negligible gameplay differences (Daisy, Richter, arguably Dark Samus and Dark Pit). Lucina, Chrom, and Ken are the only three that seem like that they would have different places on the tier list over the character that they are echoing (Chrom and Lucina due to the fact that they remove their echoed characters' gimmick, as well as Chrom having a much different recovery, as well as Ken having all sorts of differences).

Let us also look at each echo individually in what they do differently from the character that they are echoing:

Dark Pit:
- Has different properties for two of his specials (neutral and side specials)
- Different Final Smash

Lucina:
- Removes the tipper sweetspot gimmick that Marth has and instead power is evenly distributed all across Lucina's sword.
- A few pixels slightly shorter

Daisy:
- Unique idle animations as well as an unique run animation, has a bunch of lively facial animations during attacks.
- A few few pixels slightly shorter

Richter:
- His down special has slightly different properties (blue flame as well as it is not considered a fire move ingame, which means it will not set off explosives on contact and will kill Olimar's Red Pikmin).

Chrom:
- Removes the base sweetspot gimmick that Roy has and instead power is evenly distributed all across Chrom's sword.
- Different idle animations and slightly altered attack animations (holds sword in proper grip as opposed to reverse grip that Roy does)
- Different recovery special (Soaring Slash which is pretty similar to Ike's Aether)
- Has an unique Final Smash

Dark Samus:
- Lots of unique animations (unique idle animations, run and walk animations, jump animations, dodge animation, roll animations, different animations when performing several attacks).
- Samus's fire attacks now are electric attacks for Dark Samus (which has an extra frame or two of hitstun).
- Dark Samus aims her charge shot slightly lower which means it can hit certain characters while ducking that Samus cannot hit.

Ken:
- Has different animations for his down special.
- Several outright different attacks in his moveset (over five).
- Is outright faster than Ryu.
- Has two different Final Smashes from Ryu.
- Has a few unique command inputs for attacks.

As can be seen many echoes are very diverse. Richter and Daisy are close to outright being an alternate costume, while Ken is a hybrid between a Melee style clone and semi-clone.

Aside from Ken, what many echoes share:
1. Allowed to have unique animations (the biggest example of this is Dark Samus, though its primarily just done through simple idle animations).
2. Can have different properties for a special or two, or an outright different special,
3. Can have a completely different Final Smash (Dark Pit, Chrom, Ken).

Of the echoes, Ken is the most difference as a character (he outright has a different stat difference for run/walk speed). Dark Samus has by far the most unique animations aside from Ken (who has outright different attacks). Chrom has both a different special and different Final Smash, as well as a few slightly altered animations. Dark Pit, Daisy, and Richter have barely any gameplay or animation differences (Daisy only has idle and run animation differences), and Lucina has almost no animation differences.

Lucina and Dark Samus are basically reversals of one another for differences for game play style and unique animations. Lucina plays differently from Marth due to no longer having Marth's tipper sweetspot, but almost no unique animations, while Dark Samus played 99% similar to Samus but has lots of unique animations.

Ken is is a category all his own, but special mention has to be given to Chrom and Dark Samus for how much they managed to differ in either gameplay and/or animations.

Where echoes are not allowed to cross the line from echo to Melee-style clone is having a different body (and thus vastly different hit boxes). This is among the reasons why Isabelle was not an echo fighter (and why Young Link, Toon Link, and Pichu could not be ones either). They are not allowed to have differences for speed (aside from Ken), fall speed, and weight. They are not allowed to have different properties for their moves and specials aside from one or two of them (aside from Ken).

Here is what Sakurai in particular has said what an echo is:
しずえは、むらびとのカスタムのような感じで 、むらびとを感じ させるけれどべつのキャラクター 、ということで作 っていて、ダッシュファイターではありません。ダッシュファイター はあくまで、体型や骨格がいっしょ でないといけませんが、 しずえとむらびとは、形状がぜんぜん 違うんです.

Isabelle was designed as a customised version of Villager. She’s very similar in movement and playstyle, but she is an original character, not an echo fighter. For an echo fighter, the body shape and skeleton must be exactly the same - so we can port over animations and data. Villager and Isabelle have scompletely different body frames, so we had to build her completely differently.

This might already eliminate Dixie from consideration of even being an echo, since a ponytail would need to be added onto the model.

However, I asked vaanrose (who does work in the game industry as a modeller) about whether this is actually the case, here was his response:

For skeletal animation, what's important is how they're different, not just that they are different. As he says, Villager and Isabelle have different frames and proportions. This means that joints are in different locations in 3D space. Made up numbers, but if Villager's left shoulder joint was at (-1, 2, 0), Isabelle's might be at (-0.8, 1.8, 0).

Now, depending on the pipeline, porting animations between skeletons in 3D space is actually really simple, but given that Smash exaggerates movement and purposefully breaks the models for the sake of legibility, I can see why the Smash pipeline doesn't support that.

But for Diddy/Dixie, the differences are based specifically on what is or isn't there. Diddy's skeleton has extra joints in its hierarchy for his tail, and Dixie would have some for her hair. But these extra joints are placed at the end of the joint chain. This means that removing or adding them do not affect the animations of any joints higher on the chain. You can take all of Diddy's animations and port them perfectly onto the same skeleton without a tail.


So it technically could be possible, but would involve a little more work than it would for most other echoes, which might even put her out of the running even if she could technically become an echo fighter.

However, what matters is how Sakurai sees it, and due to Dixie Kong having a ponytail (an extra feature to her body), this can easily be up for debate.

For the rest of this hypothetical, let us assume that the ponytail is not a major obstacle (it might very well be though).

One thing to keep in mind is that all of the echoes do capture what is best known about the characters. Like even for Daisy, her main difference from Peach is her personality, and even though she has the least differences of all the echoes in terms of gameplay, she is still able to capture who Daisy is through idle animations, taunts, victory animations, and the facial animations she makes during attacks.

There are two things that Dixie Kong is immediately known for (which also both become immediately apparent when playing as her in DKC2 and DKC3). That she can fly/glide with her ponytail and that she is able to attack with it.

Already at the get go, this means she would have to at the very least become a Chrom-style echo (given an unique recovery and Final Smash). Her recovery would utilize her hair, while her Final Smash could be many different possible things (from wailing on her opponent with her ponytail like DK does with punches, throwing Kiddy Kong at them like a giant bowling bowl, or triggering a cutscene of her riding Rambi into an opponent)

In terms of an "ideal" echo, she could take notes from Ken, Chrom, and Dark Samus, and seem more like a semi-clone than an echo fighter in the vein of Dark Pit, Lucina, Daisy, and Richter.

If Dixie Kong was going to be an "ideal" echo fighter with the "Ken" treatment:

1. Would not have any speed, fall speed, , jump, or weight differences.
That is an aspect echoes have about themselves that makes them very different from Melee-style clones. Ken was only allowed to break the barrier for one difference being walk/run speed. Perhaps Dixie might be able to have slightly different speed or jump as well due to this.

2. She has different run and jump animations.
Her run and jump animations would be taken from how they were in DKC2 and DKC3. Dark Samus shows the precedent of an echo being able to have unique running and jumping animations. She would borrow her first jump animation from DKC2/DKC3 much like Diddy's first jump animation is from DKC/DKC2.

3. She has a completely different recovery: Helicopter Twirl
Taking the example from Chrom with Ike, Dixie has an altered special from another character from her series, DK. Only instead of spinning her fists, she spins around with her hair, and it covers far more horizontal and vertical distance than DK's recovery. Alternatively, her diffrerent recovery could be she recovers by how she flies in Tropical Freeze for a brief time (she uses her ponytail as a propeller to let her soar through the air).

4. Completely different Final Smash.
Without possessing the Rocket Barrel Jetpack, this means she would have to have a different Final Smash. My idea (as well as others) would be incorporating Rambi into it, where she probably does the typical Final Smash dash into an opponent only for it trigger a cutscene of her in the jungle riding Rambi, and rams into the opponents who got hit with the initial Final Smash dash animation.

5. Uses her hair for a few different attacks.
Ken has the precedent for possessing a few different attacks due to the character being known for something (in Ken's case its his kicks). He even has Hell Wheel as one of his throws. Dixie Kong would have a unique dash animation (in place of Diddy's cart wheel) that borrows from her ground pirouette in DCK2/DKC3. Various attacks with her hair could be done in her moveset with the precedent set by Ken. I am not sure if using the hair for grabbing would be crossing the echo line too far.

6. She uses the Bubble Gum Pop Gun.
A slightly different special (in the vein of Dark Pit's two slightly altered specials). Only this one maybe either fires a bit faster or does a bit more damage in place of not being able to shoot edible ammo.

Even though an echo, this possible Dixie Kong very much covers the character, and makes various references to her source material (DKC2, DKC3, and Tropical Freeze).

This is the best case scenario for Dixie Kong as an echo. At the very worst though, she ends up a Chrom-style echo (unique recovery and Final Smash). A Richter/Daisy/Dark Pit/Lucina echo simply does not make sense for Dixie because of how well known her hair for flying is to the characters (probably even more synonymous to the character than the kicks Ken is known for).

In the ideal "echo" scenario (where she is a Ken-style echo), she is pretty close to being a semi-clone (or arguably already one), which is how most already imagined her functioning in Smash Bros. for years (due to her body's close similarities to Diddy Kong).

There is a multitude of debate though among Dixie fans about whether this would be "enough" for the character. It really depends on execution. I am sure if you asked most Dark Samus fans a year ago if they would have been cool with the idea of her being a clone with negligible game play differences they would have told you absolutely not and how the character has all sorts of different abilities and moves to her. Yet, when Dark Samus was revealed as an echo, fans of her were absolutely ecstatic simply due to all the animation work the character had that still made her seem true to who she was as a character.

Even if Dixie was an echo, she would still be a part of the roster, and she could be further decloned down the line. Even before Roy returned as DLC, (this was when the Roy/Ryu leak happened) there was a bunch of detractors saying Roy was not going to be be a semi-clone because "Sakurai is lazy" and "clones cannot change", yet Roy ended up coming back with all sorts of different moves and animation differences. Heck, even Dr. Mario, who at one point was the most similar of the clones up until the echoes, ended up being further decloned with this game (got to love that stomp down-air).

However, with many Dixie Kong fans, there is an anxiety amongst them, that Dixie is not being seen as having much of her own identity among much of the contemporary Smash Bros. "core", and that she is just "girl Diddy". The unfortunate fact is that Dixie has not been treated well since DKC3, and that is the primary reason for how she is currently seen. Missing out on Diddy Kong Racing and Donkey Kong 64 did a lot of harm to Dixie since for many the 64 was their first console, and thus they were not exposed to Dixie Kong at all until they finally played DKC2 and DKC3 (whether through the GBA ports, the Virtual Console, or emulators).

After Rare was sold, her roles had mostly been as part of an ensemble cast. She was simply an extra playable character in the Donkey Konga games, and she was only in a few of the Mario spinoffs (Mario Superstars Baseball, Mario Hoops 3-on-3, Mario Super Sluggers). She was only an unlockable playable character in King of Swing and Jungle Climber. Her roles in Diddy Kong Racing DS and Donkey Kong Barrel Blast were probably her most notable roles in ten years, and they were merely as being part of an ensemble cast.

It was only until Tropical Freeze where Dixie Kong finally came back to the forefront of the series, and where she started winning the hearts of game players again (gaining a new generation of fans).

Tropical Freeze, however, was hurt by the fact that it initially launched on the Wii U (which had by far the worst sales of any Nintendo home console). Tropical Freeze re-releasing on the Switch helped give a wider audience an opportunity to experience the title, but since it was "a port" it did not make the waves a brand new title would have (Tropical Freeze deserves its sales, and it is a shame the game did not get any additional tracks in Ultimate).

It is not going to be Smash Bros. that shifts the "core's" opinion on Dixie Kong, but rather stuff that happens with her in her own home series. Dixie has been a main protagonist in three mainline DK titles (DKC2, DKC3, Tropical Freeze). She has had many other playable appearances as well (the Donkey Kona games, Diddy Kong Racing DS, Donkey Kong Barrel Blast, the two handheld Paon games, and the three Mario spinoffs), but the platformers are primarily where people are going to become exposed to Dixie Kong and become fans of her (I still support her showing up in more Mario spinoffs though, just look to see how much Mario Kart Wii did for Funky Kong).

Roy is among my favorite characters in Smash Bros., and I was constantly attacked for defending "fire Marth". However, it did not matter to me, I actually appreciated the character and loved using him in Smash Bros. (as well as in FE6 and the manga Hasha no Tsurigi), and that was what mattered to me, not the fact that the "cool kids" (aka members of the "core" that somehow have the ability to post all day on social media and gaming forums) thought he was "undeserving". In the same way, Dixie Kong was one of my favorite gaming characters during the 90's, even though she was a girl that wore pink, and the conventional opinion back then if you had to like "mature" things".

I know it hurts when you see a lot of people crap on something that you personally are endeared with and like, but you need to value your own opinions and intuition as well. The crowd is not always right (in fact the crowd, especially game forums and social media, are often dictated by the biggest and most prolific loudmouths in the community).

"Absorb what is useful. Reject what is useless. Add what is essentially your own."- Bruce Lee

We need to reject the conventional wisdom that the "core" is always right in regards to its opinion on things.

Ideally, I would like to see Dixie Kong as a wholly unique fighter, however, if she is executed well as an echo (like how I outlined in my possible Ken-style treatment for her), I would not complain.

In general, there is a ton of flexibility with Dixie Kong. There are multiple routes that you can take with her as a wholly unique fighter, different routes as a semi-clone, and even a few different ways to implement her as an echo. It is actually Dixie Kong possessing this unique sort of flexibility regarding her that makes me worried that a possibility for why she is not in yet is frankly that maybe Sakurai does not see her as worthy. And if that is the case, she might very well be in a similar situation as Toad where no amount of mainline roles and starring roles in spinoffs is going to change things (already it looks like Waluigi and Geno are going to bump ahead of Toad for the next round).

Dixie fans need to realize she is not an inevitability, and that she might very well be in a dire situation. She needs a passionate fanbase to carry her over the top just as much as K. Rool did.

Honestly a Wave 2 DLC would be great yes, but what might also help is there being Echo DLC characters. Not that Dixie might become one, but it helps the development team check in on characters that are easy to create out of the current cast of fighters, and that would be beneficial for Dixie. As we all said before, basically having Diddy with DK's Up B would be better than nothing.
Echo DLC might very well help Dixie Kong making it into Ultimate's roster. However, there is very high competition even among echo choices, and if there are DLC echoes, I think there will only be 2 or 3. Dixie Kong making it in even as an echo fighter would still be a miracle in my book. I think also if she was an echo, she would probably be a Ken-style echo (or Chrom-style with a few different A-moves).

I disagree because if she becomes a clone, she'll be a clone/semi-clone forever just like Ganondorf and Falco. So for me, it's either she's unique or she's not in at all because she doesn't deserve to have the same fate as Ganondorf and Falco who both should have been unique in the first place.
As I said above, that is far from the truth (before the individual post responses). In the case of Falco in particular, if he was not a Melee clone, he likely would never have made it in. During pre-Melee, it was Wolf that got most of the character requests due to his appearance in the E3 2001 trailer. Falco making it into Melee came as a surprise to many (but a welcome one because Falco was a popular character, though not popularly requested for Smash Bros. due to Wolf being seen as likely). Krystal emerging on the scene would have likely suffocated any requests that Falco would have had (Wolf at least built up a Smash Bros. fanbase during pre-Melee and was backed by the old guard Star Fox fanbase). If the Melee clones never happened, it is probable that Ultimate would only have had Fox and Wolf as its only Star Fox characters.

As for the case of "clones will never be decloned", there are no definitives for speculation. If I told the speculation community that Metroid was going to be the only series out of Metroid, Donkey Kong, Kirby, and Star Fox to make it to four playable characters in Ultimate, and that Dark Samus was going to be among those four, they would have called me an idiot blinded by Metroid fanboyism. As it stood a year ago, Metroid was actually the least likely of those four series to get to four playable characters, since:
- Ridley was stated to be "too big to be playable" by Sakurai himself.
- Dark Samus's last appearance in her own series was in 2007, and likely would never make any future appearance in her series since she is likely dead for good.
- Sylux's major mainline debut title (Prime 4) likely would not come out until after the next Smash Bros. title's release.

Or how about Piranha Plant being the next unique Mario newcomer (or any generic Mario enemy) over Waluigi, Geno, Toad, Captain Toad, or Paper Mario?

Or that Young Link would ever come back when we already have Toon Link?

Even though there is some things that speculators are able to see coming, we also cannot predict many other things.

If the next game is a "reboot" like many are speculating, I could see many movesets for veterans in Smash being entirely revamped, of which Ganondorf would be a top contender. Of course, the price for this, would likely mean many cuts as well.

I mean, obviously I'd rather she be at least somewhat unique than a echo/clone, but I'd still rather have her in as that than not being in there at all, especially since the series has already hit its peak for this entry. Although if she doesn't get in this time, I probably wouldn't even care about next time since there would be a bunch of cuts and the series might not even look the same at that point.
That is how I feel honestly. I personally would prefer for her to entirely unique, but I still would rather have her on the roster, especially this game's roster (it is still absolutely incredible to me that it even happened).

For the next installment, it is not just the prospects of a large amount of cuts, but also the fact that myself (as well as many others) will be in our mid-30's to early 40's by the time the next game probably does happen. Speculating and character support for many of us is increasingly "a chore" and not something we want to spend our little free time on (especially as we get older).

Much of the Dixie fanbase skews older than much of the "core" (since many of the people who do truly like Dixie are people that grew up playing the DKC trilogy), so a lot of us would like to see Dixie Kong make it in somehow for this title while we still have the time to enjoy it. Dixie Kong does not have a bandwagon cult that can attract a lot of "zoomers", so it is going to be up to whether another mainline DK installment that has Dixie in a major role gets made (thus attracting a new generation of fans) as to whether she gets people that are able to spend time supporting her for the next Smash Bros. title.

Who knows what will happen in the next eight years in our lives? Personally, I am content with Ultimate. I have had less and less time for gaming as I have gotten older, and even my gaming habits have changed considerably (I primarily play retro and portable titles now). I really like how "short burst" friendly Ultimate is (on a lunch break, I can play for ten minutes and get a new spirit).

As I said before, Ultimate was the game I dreamed of but thought would never happen. For me the only thing missing is Dixie Kong (Bandana Dee also needs some sort of consolation prize too). I am extremely grateful that Ridley was able to happen (I still cannot believe Sakurai was able to change his mind only a year after he made those statements on Ridley). I wish I could personally thank the man and his team for including Ridley as well as bringing everyone back.

I still hope Dixie Kong happens as DLC, but the way things look, it does not seem like it is going to happen (the five Fighters Pass characters will all be third-party characters most likely, or at the very least surprising character). I will still try to offer what little support I can give to the Dixie fanbase (which will be in the form of the Dixie essay I plan to write in the next few months). Dixie Kong getting in as DLC would be a huge miracle, even if she was an echo fighter.

However, I think I spent more than enough time with speculation and character support. I have no horse in the race for DLC, so it is just "wait and see" for me personally, since Castlevania was the last third-party franchise I am a big fan of that was not yet in Smash Bros. (and even for Castlevania I was pessimistic on it ever happening since there seemed to be little interest for it by the "core").

I don't think it would be simple to just give her DK's Up special. DK has a very different anatomy and hitbox that translating it over to Dixie might be a tad more difficult. Now we know just how similar all the echo fighters are and how simple the changes they made were. In order for Dixie to be an echo it would have to be the same thing. However considering how many very different moves and animations Ken was given, a brand new spinning for Dixie might still be simple enough for them to give her. If they did make Dixie and echo, I'd hope they make as many changes as they did with Ken... But Ken seems to be an exception in the echo world.
That is my hope too. Dixie Kong is certainly a character that deserves the special treatment that Ken got.

I don't need Dixie to be unique, being a semi-clone would be a-ok by me. I just don't want her to be an echo because judging by Dark Pit and especially Lucina, it seems that if you're an Echo Fighter, you'll be an Echo Fighter forever with no further decloning. She needs to have SOME substantial differences from Diddy Kong.
We only have one game of precedent to go by. Heck, even looking at echoes, who would have thought Ken would be as different as he turned out to be when all the other echoes were shown to be pretty similar with only Chrom possessing a different move outside of Final Smash.

Dr. Mario had little further de-cloning when he returned in Smash 4 (he only contrasted as much as he did in relation to Mario due to how much Mario himself changed since Melee), yet in Ultimate he got a bunch more changes to him (with a few new unique moves). Pichu went from being an outright joke character, to a character that is now considered good (with a few even saying he is top tier).

It is definitely possible in a future game, some of the echoes end up becoming semi-clones.

i feel like reception-wise it wont really matter what they do with her. if shes an echo/semiclone then people will just see her as "girl diddy" and if shes wholly unique people will just say "why did they waste resources on a character who's just girl diddy"

i care too much what other people think
The "core" are people whose interests fluctuate with whatever the biggest loudmouths tell them to be interested in (Geno for example, had much less interest in him among the "core" during pre-Smash 4 than Bowser Jr., Toad, Paper Mario, and Waluigi, yet now act like it was a big injustice he did not make Ultimate's roster). Those people's opinions are formed by whoever's opinion on social media or reddit has the most "likes".

You should not let others think for yourself. That Bruce Lee quote in particular is pertinent here.

You have Jigglypuff in your avatar, yet for the first ten years of history for Smash Bros., Jigglypuff was seen as a "spot stealer" who "deserved to be cut" by much of the "core". You have an appreciation for a character that many in the "core" wish was cut, which does show you do have a capacity to value your own opinion over the the "crowd".

Chrom turned out to be an echo, and were Chrom fans upset about all the bellyaching about another Fire Emblem character (and Fire Emblem at this point is probably the only series where people get upset when the topic of newcomers is brought up)? No, they were not. They really liked how he turned out, and only cared about what they, as Chrom fans, thought about the character's inclusion.

If Dixie Kong is done well, all that matters is how we Dixie fans think, and in particular, your own opinion. The "core" is going to whine and complain about any character inclusion that is not whatever their present "flavor of the month" is. This should not be a concern to you.

Is it bad to say I'm okay with Dixie being a Wolf/Lucas level semi-clone forever? I don't think she needs more than that. It would be nice but there's already plenty of wiggle room there.
I always wondered why she was not retooled as such for Smash 4 (since I thought Sakurai had ideas for how she worked due to her development for Smash 4). I think Dixie Kong could work in many different moveset types. A bunch of wholly unique moveset concepts, different types of semi-clones (whether a Falco/Roy/Ganondorf style or a Wolf/Lucas style), or even an echo fighter (Ken-style and possibly Chrom-style).

Honestly I think that would be an ideal situation if she has to borrow a few things from Diddy and make a Wolf style version of his move set. Having entirely different A button moves while have drastically altered B Button moves would be alright to me.
I have the same response to this as I did for StormC. Dixie Kong simply has a lot of options to go down for playable inclusion. There are simply many different routes to get her on the roster that makes her absence particularly bizarre. She might very well be in a Toad situation, which is why she needs a strong push going forward.

Those are my exact fears. It's a bummer that a large amount of people in the Smash community who aren't DKC fans seem to dismiss the kong characters entirely.
Do not let the opinions of the "core crowd" impact you. These people get their opinions on things from whoever is the most popular (or rather whoever makes the most posts) for their circles.

Even if they all singularly blame Dixie Kong for Geno/Waluigi/Ashley/whoever not making it in, it should not matter to you in the slightest. What should matter to you is that Dixie Kong made it in, and how her personality and abilities were incorporated into her moveset.

As can be seen, I typed out a lot with this post. I myself would prefer to see Dixie Kong as a fully unique fighter, but I would be happy even if she was a semi-clone (Roy/Falco or Lucas/Wolf style), or even an echo (preferably Ken-style).

I hope to put up a compelling case for Dixie Kong in the months ahead. She (alongside Bandana Dee) is definitely the most conspicuous absence on the roster at this point. She has a rich history within her own franchise, and she was a pioneer for female protagonists in the gaming industry. She is a Nintendo All-Star in every sense of the word.

If she was somehow DLC, it would make Ultimate even more "special" than it already is. However, even if she is not, she will be something for the next generation to fight for.

Regardless of how she ends up being included as a playable character, let us all fight together for her just to be included at all. Hopefully Sakurai will figure out the best route to go with her.
 

InASnowBoundLand

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I have sad news to report. Team Diddy and Dixie couldn't beat K. Rool. Unfortunately, K. Rool surprised them by using something that the Kongs thought should have been taboo even for him: the power of Fire Emblem. K. Rool was basically unstoppable with the Black Knight spirit sadly.

And you know what that means. Yes, Donkey Kong is DEAD.

This marks the first break in the DKC timeline.

Dixie's Double Trouble in this timeline is actually just called Dixie's Single Trouble.
 
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TheYungLink

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I have sad news to report. Team Diddy and Dixie couldn't beat K. Rool. Unfortunately, K. Rool surprised them by using something that the Kongs thought should have been taboo even for him: the power of Fire Emblem. K. Rool was basically unstoppable with the Black Knight spirit sadly.

And you know what that means. Yes, Donkey Kong is DEAD.

This marks the first break in the DKC timeline.

Dixie's Double Trouble in this timeline is actually just called Dixie's Single Trouble.
Hey good job on that Mii!
 

ZeroJanitor

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you know what, forget smash and mario kart. i'd be happy just to get dixie as a switch profile icon. we only have two DK icons for donkey kong himself and they're both just part of the mario series
 

KirbyWorshipper2465

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Wario Land as well. Get Captain Syrup in Mario Kart, she’s both female and a villain, something especially rare in these casts nowadays.
Given the pattern of adding to the core Mario ladies, they could go after her next, seeing as Pauline made a successful jump. Though they may not be encouraged to do that unless Syrup gets :ultkrool:levels of fan demand.

Plus we need someone adequate for Waluigi to have as a romantic option.
 

Mushroomguy12

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Did some more character icons for MK, because why stop at just adding Dixie! Next will be more vehicle ideas, but those are more complicated so that will probably take longer :laugh:



https://imgur.com/Astapje

Edit: Should have tagged Sabertooth Sabertooth from the beginning in case it's something they wanna use for twitter!
Looks really great. I’d add Tiny Kong as well since she was in Diddy Kong Racing DS and Mario Super Sluggers alongside the rest.
 

RetrogamerMax

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Looks really great. I’d add Tiny Kong as well since she was in Diddy Kong Racing DS and Mario Super Sluggers alongside the rest.
My post wouldn't load up and I pushed the save button twice and nothing happened. I refresh the page and I see I double posted. Can the mods came and please delete this post please?
 
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Koopaul

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However, what matters is how Sakurai sees it, and due to Dixie Kong having a ponytail (an extra feature to her body), this can easily be up for debate.
Well do note that when Dark Samus uses her Final Smash her arm cannon rips apart into pieces and then reasembles. Those little peices needed to be uniquely animated despite Dark Samus' skeleton. However they factor in only the Final Smash. It is not uncommon for certain parts of a character's model to suddenly uniquely animate. Like Diddy Kong tossing his cap into the air. They had to animate that cap flying from his hand and onto his head, while in most circumstances it is inanimate.

Another thing to note is that for echo fighters one of the most important factors is having the same Hurtbox of the person they are echoing. For a lot of characters things like tails, capes, hair, etc don't factor into the character's hurtbox. Diddy Kong's tail does not have a hurtbox and sometime doesn't even animate during certain attacks. (Or atleast that's how it was in SSB4, I'll have to study his new animations a bit more). So I doubt her hair would be a difficult factor unless she uses it for a bunch of moves. A Dixie echo might not have her hair animate at all (it would still move around using the game's hair the physics) but she herself could spin just around for her Up Special and her hair would just naturally swish around her.

But honestly, having her hair uniquely animate for one attack doesn't seem like it would be that difficult and would probably be the route they go.

So this what I think they would realistically do.

1. A unique Up Special. The helicopter ponytail.

2. Her Neutral Special would animate the same way but have a different gun model and shoot a different projectile.

3. A different idle and jump animation.

4. Different taunts and victory animations. This is something ALL echo fighters must have and is (probably) the primary reason why they have their own slot and are not just costumes. These characters showcase their personality in ways a costume can't. All the Koopalings have the same taunts and victory as each other, none of them showcase their unique personalities in any way.

I don't see them doing as much to her as they did with Ken since he seems like an odd exception. But I know they would do more than they did with Richter. Sorry if I'm echoing some of the things you already said haha!
 
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DeniroSerafim

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You know what really needs to happen? More Donkey Kong spin-offs. Let's get a Dixie RPG set in the northern kremisphere or something crazy like that. How about an actual sequel to Diddy Kong Racing? The wait between mainline DK games can be a bummer sometimes. Hell, how cool would it be if Ubisoft Milan made a full on DK RPG for Switch?
 
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KirbyWorshipper2465

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You know what really needs to happen? More Donkey Kong spin-offs. Let's get a Dixie RPG set in the northern kremisphere or something crazy like that. How about an actual sequel to Diddy Kong Racing? The wait between mainline DK games can be a bummer sometimes. Hell, how cool would it be if Ubisoft Milan made a full on DK RPG for Switch?
Ubisoft Milan seems like the best bet for this sort of thing, if it turns out that nothing's happening with Retro.
 

RetrogamerMax

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You know what really needs to happen? More Donkey Kong spin-offs. Let's get a Dixie RPG set in the northern kremisphere or something crazy like that. How about an actual sequel to Diddy Kong Racing? The wait between mainline DK games can be a bummer sometimes. Hell, how cool would it be if Ubisoft Milan made a full on DK RPG for Switch?
Ubisoft Milan seems like the best bet for this sort of thing, if it turns out that nothing's happening with Retro.
The name of the title would be ''Donkey Kong Country: Legend of the Crystal Coconut.''
 

GAINAX

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I strongly believe Ubisoift could be making the next DKC game if Retro isn't already working on one. Seems like they're in Nintendo's good books when it comes to handling first party ips, such as DK and Star Fox. The Rayman team would be a good fit too I reckon. I just hope they get David Wise in over Grant Kirkhope for the music.
 

InASnowBoundLand

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Yeah, I wouldn't want Grant Kirkhope as the composer or the sole composer. He makes good music but his pieces are too whimsical sounding for DK. Maybe he could adjust, he does have a wide varied talent, but if David Wise is available, I'd go with him. In fact, I'd be interested in hearing Eveline Novakovic (DKC3 and co-DKC1 composer of songs like Voices of the Temple, Northern Hemispheres, and Ice Cave Chant) return. I think she really captured that tone well in her pieces. I mean, she had a hand in creating it. I generally like David Wise's music better since he has more melodies in his but stuff like Voices of the Temple are some of my favorite songs from DKC1.
 

SeashoreWar

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It absolutely has to be David Wise! It's still so strange we didn't get any new Tropical Freeze songs in Ultimate...
 

Reila

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I want more stuff by Eveline Fischer, but last I heard she didn't work with games anymore, sadly. David Wise is fantastic, probably my favorite composer alongside Michiru Yamane and Yoko Shimomura, but Miss Eveline's tracks in DKC2 and 3 are of extreme quality, too.
 

InASnowBoundLand

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She will come out of retirement if SeashoreWar draws a parry the parallel bird paraglider for a squitter the spider kart.
 

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dixie konga would be a good eshop title
 

ChronoBound

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best post ever
I appreciate all the compliments and likes that my post received, but I do not think I wrote anything ground breaking within it. It is just my personal opinion. Personally, I would prefer to see Dixie Kong as a fully unique character (and I think she has been unfortunately tarred as a "Diddy derivative" due to how she was out of the main spotlight for the DK series for nearly 20 years). However, even if she was an echo fighter (she would probably be closer to Ken-style than Daisy/Richter/Dark Pit style), I would still be happy with her inclusion. I do think that if she was an echo fighter in Ultimate (I am not confident we are getting echoes as DLC), I think she would be a top contender to be decloned in the next title.

Still, I am very appreciative of those that enjoy reading my words.

Well do note that when Dark Samus uses her Final Smash her arm cannon rips apart into pieces and then reasembles. Those little peices needed to be uniquely animated despite Dark Samus' skeleton. However they factor in only the Final Smash. It is not uncommon for certain parts of a character's model to suddenly uniquely animate. Like Diddy Kong tossing his cap into the air. They had to animate that cap flying from his hand and onto his head, while in most circumstances it is inanimate.

Another thing to note is that for echo fighters one of the most important factors is having the same Hurtbox of the person they are echoing. For a lot of characters things like tails, capes, hair, etc don't factor into the character's hurtbox. Diddy Kong's tail does not have a hurtbox and sometime doesn't even animate during certain attacks. (Or atleast that's how it was in SSB4, I'll have to study his new animations a bit more). So I doubt her hair would be a difficult factor unless she uses it for a bunch of moves. A Dixie echo might not have her hair animate at all (it would still move around using the game's hair the physics) but she herself could spin just around for her Up Special and her hair would just naturally swish around her.

But honestly, having her hair uniquely animate for one attack doesn't seem like it would be that difficult and would probably be the route they go.

So this what I think they would realistically do.

1. A unique Up Special. The helicopter ponytail.

2. Her Neutral Special would animate the same way but have a different gun model and shoot a different projectile.

3. A different idle and jump animation.

4. Different taunts and victory animations. This is something ALL echo fighters must have and is (probably) the primary reason why they have their own slot and are not just costumes. These characters showcase their personality in ways a costume can't. All the Koopalings have the same taunts and victory as each other, none of them showcase their unique personalities in any way.

I don't see them doing as much to her as they did with Ken since he seems like an odd exception. But I know they would do more than they did with Richter. Sorry if I'm echoing some of the things you already said haha!
I do think at the very least if Dixie was an echo, she would have the pirouette attack as her own unique dash-a attack in addition to the helicopter ponytail and gumball popgun. The echoes (even Richter and Daisy) make a lot of subtle references to a character's source material.

Daisy:
- Her dash animation is taken from how she runs in Mario Party 10 (the most recent home console release Mario Party game at the time of Ultimate's development)
- One of her taunts has her pose in the same manner as official artwork for Mario Party 10 and Mario Kart 7.
- Her victory animations make references to how she celebrates in games like Mario Golf: World Tour and Mario Tennis Aces

Richter:
- Richter's taunts and victory animations reference pieces of official artwork for Richter or poses he did in the actual game for Rondo of Blood.





So even the two most similar of echo fighters dig into a character's source material and manage to work them into the character.

Heck, Dark Samus actually takes an obscure reference for the character that was only mentioned in a Japan-only interview. Dark Samus's battle entrance has her emerging from a portal.

QUESTION: How did Dark Samus come from Tallon IV to Aether?

ANSWER: Dark Samus has the ability to "short range" warp and used this to move to Aether.


With Dixie Kong, the pirouette is so much a part of Dixie's identity in the two DKC games she co-starred, I think there is a very good chance that it would be a part of her moveset even she was an echo fighter. I think at the very least she would also have that move in addition to the hair recovery, unique Final Smash, and probably the Bubble Gum Popgun.

However, this is all hypothetical. I think just the extra layer of work required to make "Dixie feel like Dixie" even as an echo, might have been what deterred the team from pursuing her as one for Ultimate (I would not be surprised if that Dixie Mii hat came from a scrapped model for a playable Dixie). Dixie just needing an unique recovery, Final Smash, a tweaked neutral special, and possibly an unique dash attack animation may have deterred the team from adding her, and may have made her unattractive as an echo even if she would likely would have had the greatest star power of any echo addition. I imagine the most ideal echoes for the team are those like Richter/Daisy where they have absolutely nothing/near nothing in terms of actual battle attacks differences and thus do not have to spend any additional time on balancing.

I think though the time for Dixie to be added as an echo was the base roster. It might be possible for additional echoes to possibly be DLC independent of the Fighter Pass (it does not look likely though). However, even if that were to happen, there probably would only be two or three additional echoes made. The competition among possible additional echoes is surprisingly very high, and as mentioned earlier, Dixie would require more work than many other echo candidates, so it would come down to just how important Dixie's inclusion on the roster is to Sakurai and his team that they would be willing to develop an echo that requires more time and effort to develop than most echoes. Even as an echo she would have tremendous star power and bring a lot of hype to DLC, but making an echo of Dixie that gives her simply an unique recovery, Final Smash, tweaked neutral special (new model for her gun and new projectile), and possibly an unique dashing attack, might need more development time and effort than what they either can and/or willing to invest for an unplanned echo newcomer. Even in this hypothetical, Dixie needs a profound miracle.

I want more stuff by Eveline Fischer, but last I heard she didn't work with games anymore, sadly. David Wise is fantastic, probably my favorite composer alongside Michiru Yamane and Yoko Shimomura, but Miss Eveline's tracks in DKC2 and 3 are of extreme quality, too.
I think her works are definitely underrated, as is DKC3's score as a whole. It is not as memorable as the ones for the first two games, but it was still good. Eveline Fischer's also composed some of the best tracks in DCK1 such as the temple music and snow stage music (forgot the specific titles for them). Heck, one of her DKC1 tracks actually found its way into Ultimate. Ice Cave Chant was among the tracks that she composed for DKC1. It was only in a single stage, yet it strangely was among the new tracks the DK series saw in Ultimate.

On a sidenote, I recently bought DKC2 and DKC3 off the Wii's Virtual Console (I still have my SNES copies, but it is still nice to have a digital copy to these two masterpieces). The Wii's Virtual Console is ending on January 30th, so if any of you still have any Wii Points remaining, you only have a little over a week left to use them. The controllers that are packed in with the NES and SNES Classic Editions are compatible with the Wii remote (they are able to plug into them), so I am able to play these games with their actual original button lay out, which is very enjoyable and nostalgic.

I hope to begin work on my Dixie Kong essay soon enough. I have a lot to say. This is all I can give to the Dixie fanbase unfortunately. I hope it helps Dixie fans realize just what a treasure she is and what she means not only to Nintendo, but to gaming as a whole.
 

TheYungLink

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Unrelated to Dixie specifically, but DK is now a trans ally.


Hbomberguy's charity stream for Mermaids (a trans youth support group), where he played Donkey Kong 64 to 101% completion without ever stopping to stream (don't worry, he got some sleep in between his all-day sessions, rather than trying to stay awake 24/7 and putting his health at risk), will go down in history as one of the most legendary online fundraisers ever. It had an astounding amount of incredible guests that were entirely unplanned--one of them being Grant Kirkhope!

He got DK to say "Trans rights! Okay!" In his best "DK 64 Donkey Kong" voice.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

So glad I got to see the end of the stream even if I couldn't catch the first few days of it.
 

Wyoming

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You know what really needs to happen? More Donkey Kong spin-offs. Let's get a Dixie RPG set in the northern kremisphere or something crazy like that. How about an actual sequel to Diddy Kong Racing? The wait between mainline DK games can be a bummer sometimes. Hell, how cool would it be if Ubisoft Milan made a full on DK RPG for Switch?
Sadly it seems Nintendo are clueless on what to do with the franchise after Rare left. Retro picked up DKC pieces rather well, but the IP isn't used for much otherwise. Nintendo's idea for a spin off was a decade's worth of bongo rhythm games. Rare made their own (imo better) kart racer with Diddy. The difference in quality between the two cannot be more clear.

There was also Barrel Blast which had a good roster aside from not including Kiddy and Chunky (not sure what these two did to be forgotten to the point they aren't even included in a DK-only racer...the same game that lets us play as Wrinkly Kong's spirit). But I wonder if the lukewarm reception to that game scared them off doing a spin off?

It's clear DK needs another company behind the wheel to be good. Just like Metroid, Star Fox, and F-Zero the big N have no motivation or idea on how to progress these series. F-Zero's finest game was made by SEGA, Star Fox was going in the right direction under Namco and Ubisoft proved what a solid game and interest Star Fox could be with StarLink after Nintendo's **** up. Metroid needed Retro Studios to get on with the times. DK is in the same boat and it's no coincidence these are titles with more western appeal.
 

Wyoming

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I've never wished more that Dixie was in DK64.
This will be super controversial to post in here but I kind of liked Tiny more. Her ability to shrink is so cool (something I think would be tacked onto Dixie if she were to get it) and would be a very unique gameplay element in a new DKC.

Lanky also has that potential. Chunky not so much.

The Dixie v Tiny argument always has been useless. Both could co-exist easily despite sharing the hair mechanic.
 
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ZeroJanitor

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im not sure how well tiny's shrinking mechanic would work in a 2d donkey kong game. seems like the kind of ability you would only use if you were forced to. unless maybe she had her own levels that function the same as normal levels but take place in a much smaller space like the inside of a house, but then thats not really a gameplay mechanic so much as an explanation for the level's existence.

besides that, i think both can coexist now especially since dixie has learned how to actually get lift from her hair
 

Mushroomguy12

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im not sure how well tiny's shrinking mechanic would work in a 2d donkey kong game. seems like the kind of ability you would only use if you were forced to. unless maybe she had her own levels that function the same as normal levels but take place in a much smaller space like the inside of a house, but then thats not really a gameplay mechanic so much as an explanation for the level's existence.

besides that, i think both can coexist now especially since dixie has learned how to actually get lift from her hair
See: Mini Mario (NSMB)
 
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Sabertooth

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I could envision some sections where the stage has small shafts you can only enter when small that lead to collectibles and bonus rooms. They do this in Rayman (1995).
 

BirthNote

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im not sure how well tiny's shrinking mechanic would work in a 2d donkey kong game. seems like the kind of ability you would only use if you were forced to. unless maybe she had her own levels that function the same as normal levels but take place in a much smaller space like the inside of a house, but then thats not really a gameplay mechanic so much as an explanation for the level's existence.

besides that, i think both can coexist now especially since dixie has learned how to actually get lift from her hair
Rayman, Rayman Origins and Rayman Legends have shrinking as a gameplay mechanic and they pull it off very well.
 

ZeroJanitor

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all right well cool im wrong i guess
 

Reila

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^ The DLC fighters have been chosen already by now, that will not help with anything. Unless it is a movement for the next game, but we don't know when it will happen, if we will get many fighters. With Smash Ultimate being not even two months old, I wouldn't bother with that. But those are just my two cents.

Also,

Rayman, Rayman Origins and Rayman Legends have shrinking as a gameplay mechanic and they pull it off very well.
Those games are SO good.
 
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