Dissidia Mafia: Over Serial Killer Wiins! ~ Told you $#!* got real!

[JTB]

Also, why are questioning his role? He didn't come up with it, it was assigned to him by Seph. The only person who knows why we would need a Watcher is Seph since he is the only person to know all the roles.

 

[Vult Redux]

My issue: You say "JTB's actions weren't scummy"

Here is the midunderstanding.

No. His post was definitely scummy. Just not worth jumping on.

If so why is Radical your main target over JTB now?

There was more to gain from a RFiction vote, I think.

I don't think placing your vote on your top suspect is the best way to use it.

When I cut things it's so that I don't overlap/answer things that don't apply because something else I answer covers it.

---

No! No, it's not! Getting a pass because you're being cutesy isn't helpful to anyone! RF's posts are inherently anti-town because posting pictures without content inclines people, especially newer people to skim over them. Yes, you get his stances--but you never get any reasoning behind them, which is the whole point of posting. I think I've stated pretty strongly why I think RF's posting style is anti-town at this point. If you disagree with me, fine. The fact that more experienced players are just letting this pass bothers me to no end, and I'm not going to change my vote just on their say-so. If I'm given a better target for that vote, absolutely, but for the moment I'm happy where I am.

mrrrrrmfp unvote.

 

[Vult Redux]

We have like an entire week left before deadline. Do you really believe that he will already be the play of the day (well before he claimed, lol)? There's a chance, but, I feel that it's entirely out of place. He wasn't even pressured into claiming. He just sort of... claimed.

Why is Scum more likely to do this than Town? What's the benefit?

 

[RoxPSI]

Also, why are questioning his role? He didn't come up with it, it was assigned to him by Seph. The only person who knows why we would need a Watcher is Seph since he is the only person to know all the roles.

-rPSI

 

[Vult Redux]

-rPSI

I don't think that's what he meant.

Err maybe it was.

Here's what I thought he meant and what I would also like to know:

Why would you question a 1-shot Watcher's utility in the game and then use that as a reason to conclude that he's scum?

 

[JTB]

Vult got what I was trying to get at.

Also, two more questions for you

- In your opinion, which role should've DH claimed?
- If you are not planning on lynching him until he gives more information about his role, why is your vote still on him?

 

[smarboy69]

It's not that. The claim is the icing on the scum cake Vult. The claim is stupidly safe and super easy for scum to hide behind; plus the timing was terribad. He wasn't gonna get lynched any time soon and th3's V/LA status doesn't mean shiz, since it's a hydra.

 

[RoxPSI]

Why is Scum more likely to do this than Town? What's the benefit?

It's a noobscum thing. "oh no, I'm under pressure... let's get them to stop pressuring me by claiming!"

As town, you want to keep your PR kept as a secret as long as possible. You don't want to be a Night Kill target, because you do have a power role. (albeit useless)
Whereas as scum, you don't have to really worry about it that much since you don't actually have it, and you're not going to get night killed over it.

To town, it has no benefit, but simply out a power role; and perhaps prevent a lynch depending on when it happens.
To scum, it is a role-claim that will protect from a lynch.

He did it to early to prevent his "lynch" from happening. It clearly was not happening that soon. He had time to get out of pressure, plenty of it too. A dedicated townie would take the time they had to convince the rest of town that they were town. But as lazynoobscum, it's pretty appealing to get out of the situation by just claiming.

Now there are some situations in which Noob Town will try to do the same thing, cliam. However, usually they try not to out themsevles as hard and usually just crumb beyond belief that they have a PR.
Seik's feels VERY pre-determined. Not something a townie would do.

TL;DR - it's anti-town to claim as early as he did.

-rPSI

 

[RoxPSI]

I don't think that's what he meant.

Err maybe it was.

Here's what I thought he meant and what I would also like to know:

Why would you question a 1-shot Watcher's utility in the game and then use that as a reason to conclude that he's scum?

Smar summed it up pretty well.

 

[JTB]

You don't need to answer my first question RoxPSI, I can already tell what your answer is going to be by your latest posts.

 

[Vult Redux]

The claim is stupidly safe and super easy for scum to hide behind

Safe? Compared to what?

Do understand know how easily Tracking/Watching can be proven/disproven?

plus the timing was terribad.

So what? What does that mean in the context of his alignment? (Don't answer this q; I want Rox to. I'm being rhetorical)

 

[smarboy69]

Safe? Compared to what?

1 shot Watch is one of the easiest things I can think of a scum fake claiming.

Do understand know how easily Tracking/Watching can be proven/disproven?

Yea. Dat "targets" player A, and has their scum mate with a PR target em. And since it's "1 shot", he just has to do it once.

Damn that was tough.

 

[RoxPSI]

Safe? Compared to what?

Do understand know how easily Tracking/Watching can be proven/disproven?

So what? What does that mean in the context of his alignment? (Don't answer this q; I want Rox to. I'm being rhetorical)

I probably ninja'd you.


It's safe compared to something such as a cop where the results are pretty legitmate and you have to give them every single night (assuming you're alive)

He only has to account for a watcher (which isn't too hard to guess; and as scum, they can also disprove it by claiming a power role and stating that he got it wrong) and he only has to do it for one night. If someone isn't even targeted, then it's entirely useless.
Oh and let's not forget that if he is a watcher and he doesn't watch a night kill, all he does is out another power role (it's more likely to be town then scum)

 

[Vult Redux]

It's a noobscum thing. "oh no, I'm under pressure... let's get them to stop pressuring me by claiming!"

As town, you want to keep your PR kept as a secret as long as possible. You don't want to be a Night Kill target, because you do have a power role. (albeit useless)
Whereas as scum, you don't have to really worry about it that much since you don't actually have it, and you're not going to get night killed over it.

To town, it has no benefit, but simply out a power role; and perhaps prevent a lynch depending on when it happens.
To scum, it is a role-claim that will protect from a lynch.

He did it to early to prevent his "lynch" from happening. It clearly was not happening that soon. He had time to get out of pressure, plenty of it too. A dedicated townie would take the time they had to convince the rest of town that they were town. But as lazynoobscum, it's pretty appealing to get out of the situation by just claiming.

Now there are some situations in which Noob Town will try to do the same thing, cliam. However, usually they try not to out themsevles as hard and usually just crumb beyond belief that they have a PR.
Seik's feels VERY pre-determined. Not something a townie would do.

TL;DR - it's anti-town to claim as early as he did.

-rPSI

Okay. I see what you where you are coming from.

I disagree though a lot.

Smar summed it up pretty well.

He didn't answer "Why would you question a 1-shot Watcher's utility in the game and then use that as a reason to conclude that he's scum?" at all.

Vote: Rox

 

[RoxPSI]

EBWOP:
-rPSI


LOL I NINJA.

 

[smarboy69]

He didn't answer "Why would you question a 1-shot Watcher's utility in the game and then use that as a reason to conclude that he's scum?" at all.

You can't be serious...

That's not the only thing leading to Dat scum. It's just a mad easy scum claim.

 

[RoxPSI]

Here's my (Roxy) feeling of why the timing was bad. But first, some dialogue to make sure we're on the same page. As a power role, it's important to keep yourself under wraps for as long as possible. Everyone can understand this rule pretty easily; be powerful enough of a townie to not die via lynch, and be sneaky enough of a player to not be considered for a night kill, etc.

Another important aspect of being a power role, is to be able to defend themselves when heat gets going (similar to this situation is it not?). Power Roles are similar to scum to where they have to be extremely calculating and understanding of the game's events in order to make correct choices and keep cool.

Why am I saying all of this though? When your question is so simple? Well let's continue.

As town, he would've felt this reaction "These guys are idiots, and I'm going to show them why tooth and nail how they're idiots." If our responses were that horrible and baseless, he would've sure enough fought it confidently, and our reasons would be completely crushed and no longer feasible. On top of this, no one in this entire game commented about him claiming. Why did he feel the sudden need to claim? Most (all) forum mafia players know to allow the player to claim before any form of hammering is done. The lynch had a complete stand still at l-2, and was only even there (it would've been at l-3) because Soupa voted ignoring Gheb's plea, but that's not the point. The point is, he claimed when no one was even intending to kill him yet, and they only did one back and forth conversation each towards me; Rfiction nor Gheb have been faught against after this recent wagon.

As scum, the problem for them is they know when mislynches will happen, and they have to prepare for that to keep the heat off of them. They also know when they're partners are in the hot seat, and when a certain lynch will flip scum. When we push onto a scum member, the tension is different; they feels that we're catching on to them, and might panic to reduce the tension. If we're right about his intentions (which we are), Seik felt that his power-role included claim would push us back, and make anyone else continuing to push at his lynch after the claim look bad (read: you promptly voting me for my reasoning for continuing this lynch). He showed little to no thought process as of how he would've used this one-shot watcher to town's advantage, as it would be expected to be done. All he does is show the power role, then let us marinade on it while he leaves for a later time. His scum picks? People who just so happen to be pushing him.


Dude [Vult] , you act as if we only wanted to lynch him -after- he claimed 1-shot watcher. Why the sudden reaction? His claim is extremely safe.

Assume he's a mafia tracker, all he has to do is track someone and if they go towards someone they can switch it up and make it a watcher report for us (assuming anyone asks). Before he dies, he can just call out the claim to mafia (who would be unknown) and they get a free kill.

Assume he's just a goon / godfather, one-shot watcher is a claim that would explain a few things.

1) Why he doesn't die (he's one shot, and because of that he's worthless after shooting).
2) He's a 'watcher', and can use the mafia nk along with information about townies to make a viable watcher report and be 'worthless' from then on.

It's extremely safe, and extremely convenient. And with 7 days left, it was clearly at a bad time.

-Roxy


.

 

[Vult Redux]

1 shot Watch is one of the easiest things I can think of a scum fake claiming.

Well, sure. Easy. But not safe. He can't make up results without risking being contradicted and outed by someone (a cop can).

I probably ninja'd you.

Yeah. Sorry. :< I am trying to keep up.

It's safe compared to something such as a cop where the results are pretty legitmate and you have to give them every single night (assuming you're alive)

See above? Cop fakers can just claim a Town result on someone who's Town. Watchers don't have that leisure.

---

Oh and let's not forget that if he is a watcher and he doesn't watch a night kill, all he does is out another power role (it's more likely to be town then scum)

Well, sure. Watchers can be Anti-Town. It's true and all but it doesn't work against his claim.

Are you just preemptively saying that it's 'no disaster' (so to speak) even if he is a mislynch?

---

You can't be serious...

That's not the only thing leading to Dat scum. It's just a mad easy scum claim.

That question isn't a defense of DatHydra. It's an attack on Rox:

The transition:

"It doesn't do anything?/Why would we need a 1-shot Watcher anyway?" -> "He's scum"

is really scummy imo.

---

Here's my (Roxy) feeling of why the timing was bad.

Your earlier explanation was sufficient. x; Sorry. I can see why you think the timing is AntiTown.

Dude [Vult] , you act as if we only wanted to lynch him -after- he claimed 1-shot watcher. Why the sudden reaction? His claim is extremely safe.

Because I thought that both his timing and the claim itself was unusually Town and that your reaction was unusually Scum so I am being nitpicky and argumentative about it.

I haven't even really looked into his posts/case against him pre-claim and so later I might realize that his case is good and will jump on the wagon

but this really irked me and I want to address it now.

Assume he's a mafia tracker, all he has to do is track someone and if they go towards someone they can switch it up and make it a watcher report for us (assuming anyone asks). Before he dies, he can just call out the claim to mafia (who would be unknown) and they get a free kill.

It's possible, yeah.

 

[RoxPSI]

I haven't even really looked into his posts/case against him pre-claim and so later I might realize that his case is good and will jump on the wagon

...

HOW ABOUT YOU DO THAT FIRST.

Also you have that statement misconstrued. It's "Why would town 'have' a 1-shot watcher in general", not "let's just throw away a one-shot watcher""

-rPSI

 

[Tandora]

I probably ninja'd you.


It's safe compared to something such as a cop where the results are pretty legitmate and you have to give them every single night (assuming you're alive)

He only has to account for a watcher (which isn't too hard to guess; and as scum, they can also disprove it by claiming a power role and stating that he got it wrong) and he only has to do it for one night. If someone isn't even targeted, then it's entirely useless.
Oh and let's not forget that if he is a watcher and he doesn't watch a night kill, all he does is out another power role (it's more likely to be town then scum)

I agree with Vult that Hydra's claim is not a completely safe one. I know when I've played scu I've had much better safeclaims then a one time WATCHER of all things.

I think claiming at L-2 is very reasonable. Who cares if there's a week left? Pressure is put on a player for a reason, Sei-Hydra responded. It's not like he claimed at L-5 and since the pressure is off Jiremi, Hydra was next.

I say we let Hydra go for tonight, let him use his ability to "prove" himself. If he can give town information from his target, that's great. Even if he's only a VT after that, it's another player we have confirmed as town who we don't have to lynch as scum. If his one-shot gets countered, either he was lying or the CC is lying. It's win-win as far as I'm concerned.

@ Roxy, DO NOT EDIT ANY MORE. I DON'T CARE IF YOU IMMEDIATELY REPOST ON YOUR APPROPRIATE HYDRA. Only use EBWOP and repost on your hydra that way. The whole reason we have the no edit rule is to use as a back trail for player's moves and motivations. I have no doubt your edits are sincere, but it's a bad habit and breaks a big rule.

 

[Radical Fiction]

I say we let Hydra go for tonight, let him use his ability to "prove" himself. If he can give town information from his target, that's great. Even if he's only a VT after that, it's another player we have confirmed as town who we don't have to lynch as scum. If his one-shot gets countered, either he was lying or the CC is lying. It's win-win as far as I'm concerned.

You're bull****ting me, right? I'm sick or this would be in comic form. How do you recommend we "prove" he's a watcher and not lying scum?

With Roxy that claim was scummy.

 

[Asdioh]

He didn't answer "Why would you question a 1-shot Watcher's utility in the game and then use that as a reason to conclude that he's scum?" at all.

Vote: Rox

Wut. I didn't get the impression RoxPSI was quite saying that. Plus, I think he's explained his thoughts on the claim, to a great extent.

I haven't even really looked into his posts/case against him pre-claim and so later I might realize that his case is good and will jump on the wagon

ಠ_ಠ



I'm trying to process if the claim was too early/how legitimate it is/how safe it is, particularly the "how safe is it" part.

I'm running the scenarios over in my head and I think it's a very safe claim. He could claim to have been roleblocked. He could say he Watched someone and nobody visited them (chances are probably pretty high for him to do this and get away with it)
The only way I can think of to really "prove" his claim is true is to tell him to Watch someone, and then have a Town PR visit that same person. This is obviously completely ******** as, if he's telling the truth, it will both waste his ability and out another PR. Or he could be Mafia Watcher. It might prove he lied about his role if he can't guess who visited the person, but then again he could claim that he was roleblocked.

So yes, I think it's a very safe claim.

Do I think it's a lie? Not necessarily, but the problem is that a one-shot Watcher sounds like something that would be more useful later in the game, when there are less players and more of a chance to Watch the person that gets nightkilled. He claimed too early, but he is at L-2 and about to be absent for a bit, so I can understand his hasty decision. Somebody should have unvoted after Soupamario accidentally set him to L-2 because of getting ninjad. Imad.


I apologize, but I'm having a really hard time getting a read on DatHydra. It looks like his lynch is the most likely for today, but for I'm comfortable with my vote where it is because Hida still looks suspicious to me.

I think claiming at L-2 is very reasonable. Who cares if there's a week left? Pressure is put on a player for a reason, Sei-Hydra responded. It's not like he claimed at L-5 and since the pressure is off Jiremi, Hydra was next.

This is part of the reason I'm having trouble reading him. Like I pointed out, he should not have been at L-2 in the first place, someone should have unvoted. There also may be a double voter (I'm not going to forget that there was one in my first game) and who knows if some people will just decide it's ok to hammer him before he comes back.

I say we let Hydra go for tonight, let him use his ability to "prove" himself.

I've already said why I think this is a no.

If he can give town information from his target, that's great. Even if he's only a VT after that, it's another player we have confirmed as town who we don't have to lynch as scum.

no...

If his one-shot gets countered, either he was lying or the CC is lying. It's win-win as far as I'm concerned.

Why would anyone counterclaim that?

 

[Asdioh]

EBWOP:

If he can give town information from his target, that's great. Even if he's only a VT after that, it's another player we have confirmed as town who we don't have to lynch as scum.

Actually yes, this is possible, but only in the very unlikely event that he targets the person that gets NKed.

 

[Radical Fiction]

EBWOP: Actually yes, this is possible, but only in the very unlikely event that he targets the person that gets NKed.

Bull****. How could you tell the difference between him being scum claiming that he targeted them and him telling the truth?

 

[Asdioh]

Bull****. How could you tell the difference between him being scum claiming that he targeted them and him telling the truth?

Oh. Well, I guess it would be his call.

If he is mafia, he doesn't have the advantage of numbers. In this case, he could claim he watched someone that wasn't the NK target, so that his ability is gone, thus making him a nulltell (right?)
Or he could lie about who he saw perform the night kill. If he does that, he claims scum. We might get a mislynch before we kill him, but then he'll definitely die the next day.

Do you think DatHydra would be willing to trade his life for the sake of one mislynch? I didn't think he would, but if I'm wrong please tell me.

 

[Asdioh]

Do you think DatHydra would be willing to trade his life for the sake of one mislynch? I didn't think he would, but if I'm wrong please tell me.

it's better than being lynched Day 1 lololol


._.

 

[Vult Redux]

...

HOW ABOUT YOU DO THAT FIRST.

I can only do so much at once! This was more important.

Also you have that statement misconstrued.

It's "Why would town 'have' a 1-shot watcher in general", not "let's just throw away a one-shot watcher""

Wait, what?

Can you respond break up each part of my post and respond to them separately? It'd be easier for both of us.

I say we let Hydra go for tonight, let him use his ability to "prove" himself. If he can give town information from his target, that's great. Even if he's only a VT after that, it's another player we have confirmed as town who we don't have to lynch as scum. If his one-shot gets countered, either he was lying or the CC is lying. It's win-win as far as I'm concerned.

Well, no.

And not even because of what RFiction says.

 

[Vult Redux]

Let me clarify my viewpoint because I've been vague about it so far and people are saying weird things.

1) I think that the timing of DatHydra's claim was Town, because in my experience scum try to bide their time as much as possible before they claim (it's advantageous for them; more time to come up with a good one). Rox made me rethink it though, so I'm kind of wishy-washy on whether the timing indicates anything of alignment at the moment.

2) 1-shot Watcher REALLY rings a bell with me. This is the first time I've been exposed to a Watcher since I've read discussions about how Watchers are broken because of their ability to insta-catch Scum, and after playing a game in which there was a claimed Doctor and Watcher -- arguably an even stronger combination than Doctor and Cop.

And I have come to take the stance that Watchers are inherently broken.

But a 1-shot Watcher is really fair and it's something I would expect to see as a Town role. It can't be used with a Doctor to make a death combo, and only gets the only chance to catch scum. It's something that the Mod would have definitely taken into account if the Mod or reviewers understood the Watcher's power, but I'm not sure DatHydra would have if he were discussing the plausibility of a fakeclaim.

3) The Watcher can prove that he is a Watcher, not that he is a Town Watcher. Letting him go wouldn't clear him at all; it would just give us a chance to catch him in a lie. FOS: Tandora

Noted that RFiction didn't bring up Scum Watcher... just "lying scum". I dunno. Fishy word choice. Bothered me.

4) On one hand, he claimed a role that CAN be catch in a lie. On the other hand... it is one-shot. He could get away with it a lot easier than he could if he'd claimed full Watcher.

5) He didn't consult the other half of his hydra before claiming, or at least it seems that way. I think that as Town I'd ask my partner if it were okay when I felt it was time. But as Scum you would talk about claiming ahead of time (readying fakeclaims and all), and so... yeah.


To be honest point 2 is the major reason I wouldn't advocate his lynch (only taking his claim into account). Claiming a 1-shot Watcher specifically just seems... to good to NOT be true.

 

[Vult Redux]

Wow I butchered all of the English.

If a word up there doesn't look like it makes sense substitute with a word that looks similar.

Sorry. >_<

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

With 13 alive it take 7 to lynch!

[0] Glyph:
[0] Tandora:
[0] Soupamario:
[5] DatHydra: RadicalFiction, hidajiremi, RoxPSI, Gheb_01, Soupamario,
[2] hidajiremi: Asdioh, DatHydra,
[0] Vult Redux:
[1] RoxPSI: Vult Redux,
[1] Asdioh: Tandora,
[0] Red Ryu:
[0] smarboy69:
[0] RadicalFiction:
[0] JTB:
[0] Gheb_01:
[0] No Lynch:

Not voting: Glyph, Red Ryu, smarboy69, JTB,

 

[DatHydra]

I claimed at this point because I felt under pressure. I did not consult Kuz about it.

I was at L-2, I was seriously considered a lynch target and I was going to be away for 5 hours in which other players would be active. Being lynched while I was away did seem realistic to me.

Lol at chat regarding my claim being scummy. My PR is weak, as has been acknowledged. I am not a NK target tonight, nor do I think I will be for a while. I'm seen as scummy and as such NKing me would make no sense. I refuse to believe that my roleclaim will make me a NK target.

L-2 does not seem too early for me, especially if I'm not around to defend myself. I don't have the experience to know whether it is or not, but logically it makes sense to me.

"Most (all) forum mafia players know to allow the player to claim before any form of hammering is done."

Legitimate Newbie excuse. I have not played forum mafia before. I could not have known this.


While One-shot Watcher might be safe and weak, I have no control over the role I was given.

However, I have control over my playstyle. Tell me, does my play make any sense if I was a significant PR? What alternative claim would have made any more sense?

 

[DatHydra]

@Rox

My issue with Hida is this.

He's played incredibly safe. He's asked for stances, and he only takes things that are considered the common feel amongst players.

Ignoring his bit on RF, he says Gheb town, I'm scum. Both of these are incredibly safe. If either player flips the opposite faction, he has little if anything pointing to him.

His case on me involves taking a RVS vote seriously (which he can claim was just noobtown), and half the things he calls me out for, he explicitly states he's doing himself. Hydra's second post contained no content, Hida admits that he's lacking in content. Hydra's use of newb defence is scummy, even though Hida states he has done the same. If he's using these to claim I'm scum, surely they equally apply to himself?

Then there's his ridiculous claim "You can pretty much clear Tandora since she voted against me." He can easily just pass this as him being a noob.


You might believe that my claim was safe, and that I haven't conversed enough with other players. But do you honestly believe that my play has been safer than Hida's?

 

[DatHydra]

P.S. Arguing about whether the claim goes with my play, about the time of my claim, are sensible.

Speculating purely on the role and how "safe" it is? BS. It can be either a safe fake claim, or just a weak town role. You cannot distinguish between the two purely from the role. Neither can I prove it. That purely comes down to the mod's decisions for roles in the game. While as scum it's a "safe" claim, as town I can't do anything to make my role seem any less "safe". To push either scum or town purely on how "safe" the roleclaim is is either incredibly dumb or scum. C'mon guys, I've not even played before and I know that.

 

[DatHydra]

Last consecutive post, I promise.

Maybe.


Questioning how "safe" a claim is does catch scum out, yes.

But think about how it affects town players. You assume any town VT or weak PR is scummy purely because of the role they are given.

How "safe" my claim is isn't a scumtell. To come to that conclusion you're starting with the assumption that I'm scum. For anyone who has a null on me it doesn't make a difference either way, and anyone with a town tell sees it as town. It doesn't distinguish between scum or town at all, all it does is reinforce your current opinion, regardless of what it is.

So, to get to the point. Focusing on how "safe" a claim is is either dumb or scum.

Smarboy, I had you as town. I still think you're town, you're just playing dumb. Consider this from a neutral position. From a neutral position, is my claim scummy?

JTB, you seem to be on the same line of thought as me on this particular matter. Good. You're town.

RoxPSI, you do use the ridiculous "safe claim" argument, but you at least address other points. I hope I've addressed those other points.

Vult - 'The transition:

"It doesn't do anything?/Why would we need a 1-shot Watcher anyway?" -> "He's scum"

is really scummy imo.'

10yes.

Radical Fiction - "With Roxy that claim was scummy."

Uscum?

Asdioh - You point out it's a safe claim, but don't focus on it. Good.


Anyone who advocates the use of the safety of a claim as an actual way to determine scum or town, explain why it's legit. Because it totally isn't.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Unvote

Seen the claim, reading up stuff in detail, responding to stuff now ...

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Regarding DatHaydra's claim:

People say that his claim is an awfully safe one for scum to make. But with all the mistrust he has garnered for it can you really argue that that's actually the case? How is claiming a one-shot power safe at all? He didn't make a "safe" claim - he just claimed to have a rather weak power but that's not the same thing. The question is: why would scum claim a power so weak when it runs the risk of him being lynched anyway? It's a game of WIFOM but I think on Day 1 the risk would be too high for a mafioso to make such a gambit. I definitely believe that he has the power he claimed.

His alignment is not confirmed by his power though, just to make this clear. However, on the account that his defenses against hida's and Rox's accusations were rather convincing and that other than me nobody has legitimate points against him I'm starting to doubt he's mafia and to think that opportunistic scum could've been on his wagon.

One thing that people didn't take note of is that while DatHydra claimed to have a one-shot watcher ability he never claimed that this is his only use. Just because you claim one power, doesn't mean that you can't potentially have another one. I'm not asking DatHydra to confirm this assumption but it's generally something you should keep in mind. It's not to far fetched an idea that a serial killer for example can have a watcher ability to prevent the "he must shoot on D1"-trap that makes games hard for SKs - I know this game has been revised by a mod and SK / Trackers already exist to keep things balanced. This probably sounds like a very concrete accusation that I'm not intending to make. While his alignment is not confirmed the pro-town aspects of his claimed role and his defenses against Rox and hida make me think that we should not lynch him.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Soupa, Red Ryu, Vult(?), and one of the other hydras, I think. Maybe more.

Looking in to that next but I think Vult has genuine reasons to vote for you [although I don't agree with them].

Also, he jumped on the Jiremi wagon really fast.

Not sure if that's a townie happy to have a direction or scum delighted in having an easy lynch. Also, if asdioh flips scum, I'd bet money Vult is scum too.

UNVOTE
VOTE: ASDIOH

What's wrong with jumping the hida wagon fast? He didn't have a lot of votes, I have directly asked people to vote for either him or the hydra and people generally wanted him to take a stance. Even as his wife you could be wrong about him and it's not like the push wasn't warranted.

Also, elaborate on the Asdioh - Vult connection?

I've only said that Gheb's reasoning to vote you initially was unnecessary.

More information has been given, and Gheb's initial reasons were relatively shoddy.

-rPSI

Why are you trying so hard to undermine people's opinions and actions? You have no business calling my initial call-out against Hydra unnecessary or shoddy as they are the only one's he could not give a fully adequate response to - completely in contrast to your reasoning to which he replied very thoroughly and in detail.

Using his full claim *against* him is also something that doesn't make a lot of sense. I could accept it if somebody would treat it as null but you literally conclude "safe thing to claim" [which isn't even the case] = scum. That's the dumbest knee-jerk ever and show's that you're not willing to find a constructive solution to this situation but just want to turn everything you find against him. You're giving me a really hard time making my mind up about your alignment but at the moment I'm leaning scum on you and would perfectly fine with your lynch.

Unvote Vote RoxPSI

Not voting: Glyph, Red Ryu, smarboy69, JTB,

Could these people *not* squander our time for a change and get voting already? Ryu and Glyph are first-rate vig fodder with their null-stances and not-voting and JTB needs to be more vocal about his suspects before deadline approaches.

 

[DatHydra]

I'm happy with a RoxPSI lynch over Hida.

I'll have a case produced momentarily.

Unvote
Vote: RoxPSI

 

[~ Gheb ~]

@Vult

Your 588 shows a lot of good insight [except for calling watchers generally broken] and gives me a lot of inherent pro-town vibes.

I think I understand your stance regarding JTB / Radical but I profoundly disagree with your approach of voting the less suspect of the two. How important is that whole issue to you anyway? Since you moved on and are voting for Rox this whole thing seems to drown a bit now but I can still see your reasoning for voting Radical earlier as a cop-out to be on his wagon. Got my eye on you, sir.

 

[DatHydra]

The first concern was RoxPSI buddying me.

The main reason for Gheb's push was for Kuz skimming. I personally (Roxy PoV) don't see how Kuz's first question was vocally explained, considering the main basis of your conversation was with Soupamario, it seems a great deal of your views are indirect, and clarification would need to be made in them; Post 63 especially. You say this is something that mafia would do, and Soupamario didn't do it, so indirectly this is a town tell in your eyes correct; you never directly said this, and it's easy to see how Kuz could've missed this.

RoxPSI's first post defends Gheb's attack on us. Their defence comes before we respond to Gheb.

I noticed this, and brought this up with Gheb.

@Gheb Do you feel anyone is buddying you or me this game?

I didn't directly ask if he felt RoxPSI was buddying as I didn't want to force the viewpoint: I was seeing if the buddying was obvious.

Gheb responds:

I don't feel like anybody has been buddying me; as for you I feel buddyish vibes coming from RoxPSI [answering questions pointed towards you before you did]

Second:

Hida is being put under pressure for his lack of stances, RoxPSI responds with:

Because you personally decide to not read his messages, then you're the one being anti-town, not him. The thing is a lot of his posts, especially recently in the heat of things, have had more wording and content in his comics than just pictures.

How do you feel currently about DatHydra?
-Roxy

Hida proceeds to post a case on me. He states he sees me as scum, Gheb as town, and Tandora as town.

RoxPSI then states that they "feel better about him" and drops it.

However, Hida still lacks any real stances at this point. His only stances are safe: he cannot be considered in any way responsible for any lynches of Myself or Gheb. His reasoning for Tandora town is easily dismissable as playing "noob". Most of his case on me either applies to himself as well or is easily dismissable as noobplay again (E.G. Using an RVS vote against me).

For an active wagon, and a very poor response, RoxPSI drops the case surprisingly quickly, and is satisfied with Hida's bland and safe reply.




Third:


we come to RoxPSI's explanation for why my wagon was moving so fast.

• Opportunistic Tunneling
• Bad intentions behind FoS
• Tunneling without Voting; not showing firm stance on players.
• Lack of scumhunting (as of lately)
• Lack of viable responses to recent pushes (as of lately)
• Lack of comments on recent information (i understand your 'reason' Kuz, but Seikend needs to be posting in your stead).

Note that the first 3 points all relate to the same thing (My pressure on Soup), and the last 3 points are all because I was offline for a period of 15 hours.

My pressure on Soup has been addressed several times before. There was no FoS. no vote, and no one has suceeded in showing an intent to lynch.

Inactivity was a bad point (one which RoxPSI retracts.)

So all we're left with is that I was pressuring Soup too much. RoxPSI builds a 6 bullet point case which looks impressive at first-sight, but when broken down is just one sentiment that has been shared by others.




The final point is presented wonderfully by Gheb.

-rPSI

Using his full claim *against* him is also something that doesn't make a lot of sense. I could accept it if somebody would treat it as null but you literally conclude "safe thing to claim" [which isn't even the case] = scum. That's the dumbest knee-jerk ever and show's that you're not willing to find a constructive solution to this situation but just want to turn everything you find against him. You're giving me a really hard time making my mind up about your alignment but at the moment I'm leaning scum on you and would perfectly fine with your lynch.

RoxPSI buddies me at the start of the game, but as my bandwagon progressed, they flip a 180 and tunnel* me with poor cases and reasoning, that are longer than they need to be to look impressive. He ignores Hida's case entirely when given a lackluster response, and focuses on mine. The push based on the "safeness" of my claim in particular is BS and holds zero weight whatsoever. It's a poor argument that scum loves because when skimming it seems like another point against someone, but on analysis it's a completely null tell.

If you still somehow believe that how safe a claim is can be used to distinguish between scum or town, read this:

Questioning how "safe" a claim is does catch scum out, yes.

But think about how it affects town players. You assume any town VT or weak PR is scummy purely because of the role they are given.

How "safe" my claim is isn't a scumtell. To come to that conclusion you're starting with the assumption that I'm scum. For anyone who has a null on me it doesn't make a difference either way, and anyone with a town tell sees it as town. It doesn't distinguish between scum or town at all, all it does is reinforce your current opinion, regardless of what it is.

*I use the term tunnel appropriately here. I show how they focused on a player, and intent to lynch. Come at me.