Discussion on pros/cons of turnip momentum cancelling

[LanceStern]

I don't know if it is just me and terrible West Coast DI or what, but I realize peach is not very good with momentum cancelling. All of her aerials come out pretty fast but have a LOT of cooldown if they aren't autocancelled, which spells disaster for momentum cancelling.

It was discovered a long time ago (and I assume is common knowledge) that throwing a peach down while in the air is her fastest option in terms of momentum cancelling or acting as you get knocked back.


QUESTION
What I am debating now as to whether when I am over 110% or so and fighting opponents that generally KO on the horizontal boundaries, should I just ALWAYS have a turnip on me at all times ready to use it to save a stock.

PROS
+ Improved momentum cancelling
+ Mindgames / Unpredictability in sense of throwing turnip or doing ground attacks
+ Have a projectile at all times
+ Still retain all aerials and fsmash, though it's aslightly hard to use them

CONS
- Loss of some of her fastest options: Jab, dsmash, Dash attack
- Increased difficulty of using aerials and smashes
- Limits options -> Increases predictability


What do you think?

 

[¿Qué?]

Well, I've always felt that Uair was best for Momentum Canceling.

Dthrowing the turnip gives you contol over your body's hit stun sooner, but the momentum doesn't really stop. Since Uair has a strange animation, I've always noticed it to be the best option for MCing.


That's all IMO though. I feel way more comfortable with Uair rather Dthrow turnips.
If that's even an abreviation.

 

[LanceStern]

I feel dthrow gives you control sooner so you can initiate that momentum shifting second jump a lot sooner than an uair.

 

[Meru.]

Dthrow is better since you can fastfall immediatly with C-stick and it's much faster. It's actually the reason is also momentum cancel with Dair instrad of Uair, simply because I can optimally momentum cancel.

I've thought about this too, and yes, it is a good tactic too do occasionally, but don't overuse it as a turnip can limit your options, just like you said.

 

[deepseadiva]

Me and Hotgarbage actually did some testing on this awhile ago.

Thought I'd send you some preliminary data stuffs I got on Tuesday:

Stage: FD
Attack: mk's front dsmash
General DI: towards corner

Highest survival % from edge closest to blastzone:
no input: 136%
uair fastfall:137%
uair no fastfall: 136%
uair fastfall jump: 139%
uair no fastfall jump: 136%

ad-canceld dthrow jump: 120% LOL
ad turnip dthrow no jump: 136%
ad turnip dthrow to fast fall: 137%
turnip dthrow no jump: 136%
turnip dthrow jump: 126% WUT

Soooo yeah. How Peach's second jump behaves depends on when in her launch she uses it (aka how fast she is going). If used at the end of a uair it'll cancel some horizontal momentum while slightly worsening her vertical survivability. If used in the middle of her launch ala after the airdodge-canceled throw it gives her a huuuuuge vertical boost making her survivability in this instance awful.

There are still some quite of few questions to be answered here though. Does jumping that early affect horizontal survivability? Would it be optimal to DI not-towards-the-corner and then do this? How does this affect hits from the far side of FD?

Fastfall-Uair-jump is her best momentum cancel, even considering turnips. If you do have a turnip when hit though, the best MC there is airdodge-turnipdtoss-fastfall... jump not necessary.

Tricky. And I love how our momentum canceling saves us a whole 3%. Yaaaay...

I also love how this is barely being investigated two years into the game. God this board sucks.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

I also love how this is barely being investigated two years into the game. God this board sucks.

I've been spouting out her best momentum cancelling options and researched into this dozens of times for goodness knows how long in the past >.>


How do you people not know this already? Uair fastfall to 2nd jump towards the stage is her best option

Also hotgarbage and Meno, are you certain your data is right? I feel weird for asking such a silly question but
- No input = 136%
- Uair to 2nd jump = 136%
- Fast fall Uair to 2nd jump = 139%

Is this only right if you don't move towards the stage? If you simply Uair and 2nd jump, you go the same distance as you do as if you didn't have any input at all

You need to move towards the stage whilst you're jumping for momentum cancelling to actually do anything

I know it makes it tricky to test but you need to push towards the stage (e.g. you're being sent to the left, you push the Control Stick to the right) for momentum cancelling to work properly. Could you get back to me on that? I'm sure I survive a lot more than 3% both in matches and from when I did testing

Edit: After doing a few quick retests of my own, here's what I got

Falcon Punch in training mode on Peach at 80%

Stage = Hyrule Temple
Position = On the small block on the left handside of the stage just after the altar and just before the fall through to the cave of life
DI None (I was very careful with the fast fall inputs)

No input = Death
Uair to 2nd jump = Sooner death if you jump instantly, same as No Input result if you jump later
Uair fastfall to 2nd jump = Same as above
Uair to 2nd jump whilst moving towards the stage = Death if you jump instantly, Survive if you jump later (is this something to do with Hyrule's ceiling?)
Uair fastfall to 2nd jump towards the stage = Survive everytime

Is it really only 3% that's making a difference?



I could very well be wrong but I would be grateful if you guys had another check - remember, make sure you are DI'ing towards the stage when you jump!

 

[Gameswithgoodies]

there's also decaying which should be taken into effect as well. since if you survive the first one the second one they do will be decayed and if they used it before those two.

 

[LanceStern]

What about Dthrow turnip to second jump -> immediate parasol?

 

[Metatitan]

What about Dthrow turnip to second jump -> immediate parasol?

Then you'd be a very vulnerable target when recovering

 

[¿Qué?]

Actually, Parasol sucks for momentum canceling.

It's not like DK's upB. You just keep going.

 

[deepseadiva]

Then you'd be a very vulnerable target when recovering

Not as vulnerable as MK after his Corkscrew MC.

Deserves testing, but like PG said, I think it actually boosts you further.

 

[Eddie G]

Wait people are still trying to figure out how to momentum cancel effectively?

Lol, friendlies > this board's tactical progress.

 

[z00ted]

like i said, these boards are about as useless as a poopy lollipop

 

[deepseadiva]

lol

This is probably the best thread we've had in months. The data and discussion are entirely new.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

There is nothing bad about reliving old information. I believe no one wants to do any sort of research that they can, so they avoid reading our board's forum. Therefore, these sort of threads that are active get glanced over by newcomers and they learn.

 

[z00ted]

I LUB BRAwL!

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

w/e ignore this post

 

[LanceStern]

It does seem to me like parasol stinks with momentum cancelling, but I think it would be worth a shot to look into. I cannot.

On a side note, I have been using reverse parasolling sometimes as a surprise offstage damage chipper when people like to chase below. They don't get popped up by the multi-hit.. Definitely can put them into panic

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Jesus Christ...

Doing any sort of 'Special' Action will give you pushback when momentum cancelling. That's how all specials work in this game minus DK's Up + B, Yoshi's Egg Roll and G&W's Bucket


Guys, there's is nothing old about this information - I must have said this stuff about...3 or 4 times now? Seriously, am I just posting to an empty wall or something?

 

[LanceStern]

I've never seen it before. How much pushback does it give you, and in what direction does Peachs' Up B push her back?


And I can't for the life of me believe Uair fast fall is better, the cooldown is SO long and it has this weird jerky movement that seems to push peach all the more.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

I've never seen it before. How much pushback does it give you, and in what direction does Peachs' Up B push her back?

A lot of pushback. You can use it if you want but you'll die a lot sooner
It...pushes her back like getting hit does. Basically, if you're sent flying to the left, doing a special with send even furthur to the left, which is bad cause you go nearer the blast zone

Test it with Fox. Get hit with something on a large stage at around 100%, use Uair and then repeatedly Shine Stall. You'll see what I mean

And I can't for the life of me believe Uair fast fall is better, the cooldown is SO long and it has this weird jerky movement that seems to push peach all the more.

...what???? Are you sure you're not talking about Nair???

Aerials

Nair
Duration: 49
Hits on Frame: 3
Strong Hitbox Duration: 3-6 (4)
Weak Hitbox Duration: 7-23 (17)
Aerial Cooldown: 26
Landing Lag: 11
Autocancels on Frame: 36

Shield Stun: 4, 3
Optimal Shield Advantage: -7
Optimal Shield Drop Advantage: 0


Dair
Duration: 39
Hits on Frame: 12, 18, 24, 30
Hitbox Duration: each hitbox lasts 2 frames
Aerial Cooldown: 8
Landing Lag: 9
Autocancels on Frame: 32

Shield Stun: 1
Optimal Shield Advadvantage: -9
Optimal Shield Drop Advantage: -2
Optimal Shield Advantage Autocanceled: -3 (-5 hard landing)
Optimal Shield Drop Advantage Autocanceled: +4, +2


Fair
Duration: 54
Hits on Frame: 16 (max range @ 17)
Hitbox Duration: 16-19 (4)
Aerial Cooldown: 35
Landing Lag: 22
Autocancels on Frame: 20

Shield stun: 5
Optimal Shield Advantage (assumes hitting with F17 hitbox): 0, -2
Optimal Shield Drop Advantage: +7, +5


Bair
Duration: 55
Hits on Frame: 6
Strong Hitbox Duration: 6-8 (3)
Weak Hitbox Duration: 9-19 (11)
Aerial Cooldown: 36
Landing Lag: 9
Autocancels on Frame: 20

Shield stun: 5, 2
Optimal Shield Advantage: -4 (hard hit then land)
Optimal Shield Drop Advantage: +3
Optimal Shield Advantage Autocanceled: 0 (weak hit bair -> ac landing)
Optimal Shield Drop Advantage Autocanceled: +7


Uair
Duration: 35
Hits on Frame: 8
Hitbox Duration: 8-12 (5)
Aerial Cooldown: 23
Landing Lag: 9
Autocancels on Frame: 23

Shield Stun: 3
Optimal Shield Advantage: -5
Optimal Shield Drop Advantage: +2

You want the aerial that ends the soonest so you can use your 2nd jump and jump towards the stage
Also iiirc, you want an aerial that starts soon aswell so you can fastfall

Peach's momentum cancel isn't that bad at all. Sorry if I sound ratty but I'm sick of saying this sort of stuff and...its almost as though its ignored. Its rather frustrating
plus I've had alcohol tonight so yea

 

[deepseadiva]

Lol, sorry Rick.

When I said "new data" I was talking about the turnip throw information. I've been fully aware of your contributions since you posted that stuff a year ago - it's the only stuff I reference and search for when looking into the momentum canceling.

 

[LanceStern]

It sure doesn't seem like she's good at momentum cancelling at all. Compared to a lot of others.

So on another note... if I get hit to the left, turnip -> second jump -> REVERSE PARASOL, would that push me in the opposite direction (so it would help save me by pushing me back to the right)?

Or would that push me to the left anyways

 

[Meru.]

Wait people are still trying to figure out how to momentum cancel effectively?

Lol, friendlies > this board's tactical progress.

"lolol this boards and its people suck talk to my hand, not gonna give input too"

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Oooof my head Sorry guys ><

Ah I see what you mean Meno Sorry if I appeared ratty

And reversing the Special doesn't change the direction you're sent Lance. So if you're being sent to the left, B reversing just sends you even more left - indeed, more left than if you'd just used the Special normally

Reverse Parasol would be the absolute worst thing to do due to the pushback and the lol fallspeed

 

[hotgarbage]

don't have time to read through the thread but I thought I'd post some data I got after I sent meno that pm


Last Survivable Percent with No DI + MK dsmash + opposite end of FD:
FFuair -> jump: 170%
Uair -> jump: 170%
FFuair -> sideb : <170% no need to ever use this
Dthrow turnip -> jump: 173%

In this instance you're dying off the side vs side/top in the previous data set and as such the vertical boost you get from using your double jump early doesn't matter as much, thus allowing peach's double jump's horizontal momentum-canceling properties to come into play and save you 3% wheeeeee.

Too bad you'd probably survive longer with good DI + normal momentum canceling.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

How much does % does momentum cancelling save you in comparison to if you did nothing?

Does 3% only apply to Turnip vs Uair?

 

[hotgarbage]

How much does % does momentum cancelling save you in comparison to if you did nothing?

Not sure; don't remember and it looks like I didn't write it down. IIRC the difference was much more significant than what was observed when being hit close to the blastzone (where momentum canceling has far less room to work).

Does 3% only apply to Turnip vs Uair?

yup

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

One last thing that I thought of after watching Yami's vids

Would using Fair whilst 2nd jumping help your survivability at all?
Fair/Bair shift Peach's body slightly sooooo I was wondering if using them would help

(Probably not and if it did, probably something silly like half a % lol)