• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Discussion: Capricious Design Elements, Situational Decision-Making, & Fair Item Use

The Adder

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
114
I dispise the "If you want tournaments with items, start your own". 'Lest we forget, there once were item-based tournaments. What happened to them? Non-item tournament players stamped them out.

The issue is this. Without major backing, tournaments, with items or otherwise, will fail. If, somehow, a new group came along to back an item tournament, non-item tournament players would, once again, stamp them out.
 

Erave

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 7, 2007
Messages
46
But it is still an item, and it is simply a unique item-based attack. It is NOT part of the moveset, and regardless, that is just semantics. It doesn't make them any less or more broke just cause you claim it's part of a moveset.

Why? They are different for every character as opposed to being *somewhat* static and they are imbalanced as all get out.

LOL. Too good.
This arguement is as stupid as saying you can't use each characters Up Smashes because "They are different for every character as opposed to being *somewhat* static and they are imbalanced as all get out. " Yea Fox's Up Smash is a lot different than Samus'. Your point is terrible and makes no sense.
 

Dais

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 1, 2007
Messages
74
Location
Alabama
Think of it this way: Items in Pro Matches is like The UFC allowing baseball bats. "Ugh, I could've beat that dude if he didn't have that dang bat. *passes out" Its still fun and entertaining . . . just not fair. Same with cheap stages. "Ugh, I could've beat that dude if we hadn't fought on that moving train. *dies"
 

MookieRah

Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
Joined
Mar 7, 2004
Messages
5,384
Location
Umeå, Sweden
This arguement is as stupid as saying you can't use each characters Up Smashes because "They are different for every character as opposed to being *somewhat* static and they are imbalanced as all get out. " Yea Fox's Up Smash is a lot different than Samus'. Your point is terrible and makes no sense.
I don't have to use a smash ball to do Foxes up smash. I don't have to use items to do anything else with any character.

Secondly, you are dumb. I'm sorry.
 

ihavespaceblondes

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 29, 2005
Messages
4,229
Location
Memphis, TN
I dispise the "If you want tournaments with items, start your own". 'Lest we forget, there once were item-based tournaments. What happened to them? Non-item tournament players stamped them out.

The issue is this. Without major backing, tournaments, with items or otherwise, will fail. If, somehow, a new group came along to back an item tournament, non-item tournament players would, once again, stamp them out.
...you're actually suggesting that tournament players who prefer no-items actively try to "stamp out" or stop items tourneys? That's ridiculous. Some locals might show up to the tournaments and beat everyone really badly, but they wouldn't try to stop it from happening.
 

Crescent

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 23, 2007
Messages
29
Location
Cranberry, Pennsylvania
I would like to push for the inclusion of items in Brawl tournaments, as it seems they're dealing with the "exploding crates and barrels" thing from Melee, which was the main reason items were banned from Melee tournaments. Therefore item inclusion should be highly considered when Brawl comes out, and i'm sure if some tourneys don't have them, others will.

Also, this thread wins for making me look up "Capricious". I've now learned something today, thank you.
 

orintemple

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 5, 2005
Messages
1,237
Location
Chicago, IL
I think items tourneys will exist for Brawl unlike they do for Melee but the big time will still be no item. With vast amounts of money on the line no one is going to take a chance just to have items on.
 

Samochan

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 2, 2006
Messages
3,450
Location
I'm in your house, dsmashing your tv
Kirby's fs calls for immediate ban (spicy curry, maxim tomato and heart container anyone) and peach is the same. Healing items are not allowed even on some item tourneys. But there is no way we could just ban those chars from using fs and let everyone else have as much as they want, that would be unfair. But it would be as unfair to have these chars access to such broken fs'es, same with bowser and friends. So what can we do? Ban smash balls of course, it doesn't hinder us from playing characters normally like we did on ssb64 and ssbm, same without any other item as well and we can blame sakurai later if he did not include zss on the selectable char roster without fs. Sheik didn't need zelda to be playable, nor does zelda need sheik on low tiers to be playable. Nor we need final smashes to be able to play this game competitively. The final inclusion of final smashes however, is yet to be determined since the game is not out yet and the formula hasn't been tested.

Just something concerning final smashes. <_>
 

The Adder

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Messages
114
...you're actually suggesting that tournament players who prefer no-items actively try to "stamp out" or stop items tourneys? That's ridiculous. Some locals might show up to the tournaments and beat everyone really badly, but they wouldn't try to stop it from happening.
Suggesting? I'm not suggesting anything. All I'm doing is bringing up history.
 

MookieRah

Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
Joined
Mar 7, 2004
Messages
5,384
Location
Umeå, Sweden
Suggesting? I'm not suggesting anything. All I'm doing is bringing up history.
LOL. So you come to us, the people who have been part of the scene competitively for years and tell us that we have our history wrong?

There was no stamping out of items tournaments. People just opted to adopt a no items rule set. There is nothing more and nothing less to it than that.
 

ihavespaceblondes

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 29, 2005
Messages
4,229
Location
Memphis, TN

Johnknight1

Upward and Forward, Positive and Persistent
Joined
Feb 25, 2007
Messages
18,966
Location
Livermore, the Bay repping NorCal Smash!
NNID
Johnknight1
3DS FC
3540-0575-1486
I dispise the "If you want tournaments with items, start your own". 'Lest we forget, there once were item-based tournaments. What happened to them? Non-item tournament players stamped them out.

The issue is this. Without major backing, tournaments, with items or otherwise, will fail. If, somehow, a new group came along to back an item tournament, non-item tournament players would, once again, stamp them out.
Umm, no they don't. That's the steriotypee that is only true 99.9% of the time, created by retarted casual players (I'm not calling casual play retarted; I'm aiming at specific casuals), or as we call them, trolls and 4channers. Simply put, items were removed over time, due to the fact that would you want a random factor in a game you could win=???? No!

In not so close matchups, you could never beat Ken. But with items on low or very low, a random barrel explosion caused by a Fox laser blast might kill Ken randomly against PC Chris, Mew2King, or other top pros. And what is your reaction=???? F***ing BREAK THE CONTROLLER! (seriously, I hate bomb-ombs and Melee barrel and crates that explode to EXTREMES!) Make that at a MLG tournament/big tournament final round match, and you'd be pissed. Honeestly, that type of stuff happens all the time with items at high levels of play.

Items got turned off over 3 years-from medium all items, to medium about half the items, to low with fewer items, very low with very few items, to off. Gradually they disappeared, after 3 years. The Melee competitive scene has been around 6 years, so that's been half it's time. It's not that the non-item tourament players will flame you for it, it's that idiots create steriotypes and BELIEVE IT, and that they don't want to put their money on it. If you want to run a item-based tourney, go ahead. No one really skilled will show up to put their money on it.

In the end, a high skilled played would have to be CRAZY to play with items with someone who is a bit worse at a finals of a major tournament, with major money on the line, as well as reputation.

LOL. So you come to us, the people who have been part of the scene competitively for years and tell us that we have our history wrong?

There was no stamping out of items tournaments. People just opted to adopt a no items rule set. There is nothing more and nothing less to it than that.
I love watching Mookie own threads like this. Seriously, we sholdn't cross off items yet, but we shouldn't bash the Melee tournament scene for some of your stupid lack of knowledge (YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE)! Seriously, stop speaking out of your crack some of you, and think with your mind!

In other words, wait and see. My advice to the competitve community to have items as a OPTION at first, but ban a few (golden hammer, hammer, bomb-ombs, healing [except the team heal], and super spicy curry) overpowered/dumb ones. So ya, don't jump to conclusions competitive community, like some steriotypical lies said you did! XD

edit: ihavespaceballs is GOD! :)
 

Erave

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 7, 2007
Messages
46
I don't have to use a smash ball to do Foxes up smash. I don't have to use items to do anything else with any character.

Secondly, you are dumb. I'm sorry.
I'm not dumb, I'm making a coherent arguement. If you only opposed to Smash Balls because they seem too powerful that's ok. My counter arguement to that is they are unique to each character and other powerful moves like Fox's Up A aren't banned. And furthermore, how would having to use an item to activate it make it worse. That's your arugement now. What different does that make? If you could single that item out in item switch, does it make it worse because it's activated an item? Are you saying that because the items randomly spawn that this is the factor that is bannable. Because you sure haven't said that. Just a whole lot of "ur stupid and wrong im right yep."


There are plenty of good arugements against my own point. Too bad you're not making any.
 

Witchking_of_Angmar

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 5, 2007
Messages
1,846
Location
Slowly starting to enjoy my mothertongue again. :)
I'm not dumb, I'm making a coherent arguement. If you only opposed to Smash Balls because they seem too powerful that's ok. My counter arguement to that is they are unique to each character and other powerful moves like Fox's Up A aren't banned. And furthermore, how would having to use an item to activate it make it worse. That's your arugement now. What different does that make? If you could single that item out in item switch, does it make it worse because it's activated an item? Are you saying that because the items randomly spawn that this is the factor that is bannable. Because you sure haven't said that. Just a whole lot of "ur stupid and wrong im right yep."


There are plenty of good arugements against my own point. Too bad you're not making any.
FS are way more powerful than Fox' usmash, in fact, for some characters, it's nearly an instant stock.

You can't even compare the two, because one is an A move, the other is an item that unleashes deadly pain and fury for a person, so it's like they get to take an easy stock.

Also, FS are an *addition* to the moveset, that greatly unbalance the characters.

Kirby- Broken FS, totally uber broken

Bowser- Totally Broken also

DK-OK character, crap FS

It means that some characters totally dominate, and some characters totally suck. Removing FS makes it so much more balanced.

You can't compare it to Fox' usmash, because the usmash is a sub category of everyone's moveset, and within the moveset, you have different moves with different strengths/weaknesses. So a weakness in a character's usmash could be made up for with a strength in his f/dsmash. Since FS are so powerful, they cannot be balanced out with the regular moveset, so a character with a broken FS is broken. This would mean that character balancing depends mostly on FS. What's more, it actually hurts crappy characters more, because they have a hard time getting at their FS, and then only get a crap FS, as opposed to a broken character easily pulling off a stock when the FS orb comes.
 
Top Bottom