Discussion about G&W's tier placement - Give your opinion

[Vinnie]

At first I was like

but then I was like

.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

I believe that.
The look suits you bro <3

 

[Vinnie]

Atlantic North is crappy? We're practically in the same region, you idiot.

That's like saying

HURR DURR OREGON IS GOOD CUZ ITS WEST COAST AND SO IS SOCAL.

Made numerous threads talking about and forwarding the meta game (including a high quality guide which is in the works)

It's really not that hard to copy and paste the Pikachu's guide lol.

Also, your other accomplishments aren't anywhere near Zac's lmao.

How so? I mean, he's way better than me in doubles, but I can't see how he's so much better than me in singles. His best win is Tyrant, over the Summer. And I've beaten Atomsk, who is near his level.

edit: Oh snap, a random is dissing me. More than that, a random that is PGN's friend. Ahahaaha. PGN still can't fight his own battles. What a novice.

I hope you're kidding lol, how is he a random?

 

[Mr. Escalator]

That's like saying

HURR DURR OREGON IS GOOD CUZ ITS WEST COAST AND SO IS SOCAL.

You're a bigger idiot that previously suspected. For all intents and purposes, NH's smash scene can be considered Massachusetts' as they are both so close. Not to mention, I live like 3 minutes driving distance to the Mass border. I hope you're not dissing Mass players lol.

It's really not that hard to copy and paste the Pikachu's guide lol.

Are you also illiterate? Seems so.

How so? I mean, he's way better than me in doubles, but I can't see how he's so much better than me in singles.

Doubles and Singles are part of the same game. Skill is determined by how good you are at what you do (playing the game). If he is way better at doubles that means he's that much more skillful than you. Not to mention even in singles his track record cleans yours. Basically, he's better than you by a fair margin.

 

[Noraa]

i think pgn is the best gw on the EC =/.....next to boss (dont discredit pgn's win over atmsk because i think atmsk is equal in skill compared to tyrant, after i saw them play at the last viridian)
as far as gw on the next tier list, yeah hes falling but its cool.

im so late on this thread lol, i know the MU's were a page or so ago but this is what i think...

Ic:Gw - all depends on stage. i personally think its 50/50 (meep/gimr help me see this)
Falco:Gw - 50/50, i thought it was in our favor but then i played a good falco and i realized it wasnt.
rob:Gw- 60/40, he really doesnt have an answer....might as well put this for wario and pikachu too

if we do matchups....could you just keep it 60/40 50/50 and 40/60...the extra 5 that we do is sorta pointless. its either advantage/even/disadvantage

just my lil 2 cents =/

 

[Megavitamins]

lol @ calling me a random

Mr. esc, you don't have all of the NJ players + allly going to all your LOCAL tournaments. it's alot harder where we live than NH, rofl

 

[Vinnie]

You're a bigger idiot that previously suspected. For all intents and purposes, NH's smash scene can be considered Massachusetts' as they are both so close. Not to mention, I live like 3 minutes driving distance to the Mass border. I hope you're not dissing Mass players lol.

So you're saying that your smash scene comes close to ours? We have to deal with Ally coming down to our tourneys, the occasional m2k, all of the NJ MKs, Snakes, combined with NY's extreme diverse talent, etc? XD

Not to mention even in singles his track record cleans yours. Basically, he's better than you by a fair margin.

How exactly does his singles track record clean mine? Do you have evidence? No? Then keep your mouth shut.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

So you're saying that your smash scene comes close to ours? We have to deal with Ally coming down to our tourneys, all of the NJ MKs, etc? XD

It actually does. Despite what you think, the gap between us is pretty negligible. Nobody cares what you think anyways.

How exactly does his singles track record clean mine? Do you have evidence? No? Then keep your mouth shut.

It seems I hit a nerve with that one. I don't feel like wasting my time looking up all of Zac's numerous results, as it's obvious he's your superior in singles. You know it, I know it, pretty much everyone who keeps up with the tournament scene knows Zac is better than you. Now if you were comparing yourself to NoJ that might be a fairer comparison.

also I called you a random because you are pretty much a nobody. I don't know you beyond seeing your posts randomly, therefor you arent anyone of note.

To stay on track, as PGN pretty much derailed it, I don't actually see G&W dropping that much. I can see why he may, though he shouldnt, but I have confidence that the SBR isn't that dumb regarding his placement. Also, Zac, you are actually quitting repping G&W like you mentioned in the MK thread? That's a shame, now we'll drop even further without someone to replace you.

Noraa, I don't think Falco is actually even with us. Have you been playing gay enough? Stuff like sitting on the edge for a hit or two and running away to force an approach can really throw a wrench in Falco's game. I mean, it also heavily hinges on being able to avoid the early grab, but when you play the matchup enough you can get the hang of it.

 

[Vinnie]

It actually does. Despite what you think, the gap between us is pretty negligible. Nobody cares what you think anyways.

Hmm, you are a complete nobody that fails in a crappy region, winning a small giftcard credit at a store, losing to 2 OTHER randoms, at a tourney. I constantly take top spots in one of the, if not, THE best region in the US, beating notable players along the way. >_>

It seems I hit a nerve with that one. I don't feel like wasting my time looking up all of Zac's numerous results, as it's obvious he's your superior in singles. You know it, I know it, pretty much everyone who keeps up with the tournament scene knows Zac is better than you. Now if you were comparing yourself to NoJ that might be a fairer comparison.

Tell me where I said me > Zac. I didn't say that because it would be untrue. It seems that you're the illiterate one, because all I said is that I'm not too far behind Zac, but you completely ignore that and tell me other irrelevant things. So don't say "Zac's record cleans yours" because it doesn't, and you have no proof to back up your claim, therefore your already meaningless opinion is void.


edit:

also I called you a random because you are pretty much a nobody. I don't know you beyond seeing your posts randomly, therefor you arent anyone of note.

lol, he's a top marth player, and you're a nobody. >_>

edit2: Current Activity: Reporting post


Is that all you know how to do? LOL

 

[Mr. Escalator]

I actually know how to stay on topic and make posts that are high quality. Remember that post I made on the last page? Yeah, you couldn't even respond to it as a whole because you're a poor user.

If you want to keep this discussion going, I will gladly take this to PMs, where I am given free reign to crush your idiotic replies with impunity.

However, I do respect the forum's rules enough to know that offtopic **** like this is unneeded.

Oh, and if I hadn't heard of him, he's probably not even that good. Top Marth? Too funny. It's not as funny as the stuff you have been saying, though, but I digress.

edit: Also, I dont know what you're talking about. This is the first time I've reported you chump.

 

[Noraa]

Mr. Escalator thats actually one flaw in my game that i need to work on and thats using the ledge more since i am gw. i guess i will toy with it, thanks

 

[Vinnie]

I actually know how to stay on topic and make posts that are high quality. Remember that post I made on the last page? Yeah, you couldn't even respond to it as a whole because you're a poor user.

If you want to keep this discussion going, I will gladly take this to PMs, where I am given free reign to crush your idiotic replies with impunity.

However, I do respect the forum's rules enough to know that offtopic **** like this is unneeded.

Oh, and if I hadn't heard of him, he's probably not even that good. Top Marth? Too funny. It's not as funny as the stuff you have been saying, though, but I digress.

I'm a poor user? At least I don't work around questions on replies. Notice you haven't answered any of my questions directly, just spurted random nonsense like an imbecile.

What I want to know is...

1. How is he a nobody? He's beaten Ninjalink, Zucco, me, Rookie, and others. He's also top 5 in a state that is part of a very difficult region. Why are you lol'ing about him being a top Marth? No sir, I lol at you.
2. You live near Fatal & Kool-Aid? Cool. We have ADHD, Shadow, Anti, Ninjalink, Atomsk, Ksizzle, and LOTS more than top anything you have. Saying our regions are close in terms of skill is a COMPLETE JOKE.
3. How does "nobody care what I think"? You're the complete random. Not me.
4. Stop trying to use harsh language, because we all know that somebody that goes around reporting people's posts like a toddler wouldn't say half of the things that you say behind the keyboard ^_^.


And no idiot, you reported my posts in the back room.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

You haven't asked anything worth answering, tool. Not to mention, you haven't even responded to a quarter of the stuff I've brought up (including my giant post).

Oh, and despite what you may think, I am just as talkative and verbal offline as on. I hope you actually know some more creative insults than variations of idiot offline lmao

If you make blatantly poor posts, that can be expected. It was so easy to just click and send, you made it easy.

Also, don't mention it Noraa. I know a lot of G&W's are intimidated by the ledge when they first start using it. You'll end up getting stage spiked against good players, but stick with it until you can avoid that. It makes Falco a lot easier. You can even do it successfully against MK once you get it down, so it's definitely handy to learn.

 

[Vinnie]

lol I knew you'd find a way to reply without directly answering any of my questions.

 

[Megavitamins]

Nothing worth responding to?

You said NH was a very good region, on par with NY, and he squashed that.

You called me a random, he brought up my recent success in tournies, and you ignore it.

Hypocrite much? What didn't he respond to lmao

 

[Mic_128]

And now for something, completely different.

Get back on topic.

 

[Megavitamins]

I think gaw has potential

 

[UTDZac]

Thanks mic, I stepped out to get some food ><

Does anyone else have trouble against ZSS, Olimar, Falco, and Lucario... or is it just me?

 

[Mr. Escalator]

I have trouble with Olimar, and little experience with Lucario so I can't talk much about him, but I'm fairly confident against ZSS and Falco. What in particular is getting to you?

 

[12345678910]

Probably just you. ZSS and olimar pretty much go even with G&W. Be creative with your spacing with full jump bairs / nairs since ZSS and olimar have pretty good horizontal range.

I always found falco to be one of G&W's easiest match-ups against a high tier character. What problems do you have against falco UTD?

No one plays lucario here so I don't have any information on that match-up

 

[UTDZac]

I suck against Falco: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbbPPnhG5GQ
I suck against ZSS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWjnSIxpK-s

Last time I played Fino he beat me.
Lucario is ok. At least I know how to outcamp them now.

 

[Angel.M <3 C:]

hey, Mr. Escalator.

You seem like a really good player and all, and i really like the g&w match-up, would you like to money match? n___n i like big matches so nothing under $10 please n___n

i play marth/mk btw :D don't let this girl down!

 

[A2ZOMG]

Vs Falco is really stupid but can be fine for most characters as long as you approach it correctly. It's a very slow matchup like many gay matchups. You have to slowly walk and duck your way past lasers. Powershielding his SideB on reaction is recommended, as it's otherwise a retardedly good punish or gtfo option for Falco that supplements his camping strategy. The extra frames you get from powershielding help significantly in keeping yourself in a position that will let you pressure Falco.

His spotdodge is also dumb but G&W has a lot of high damage options for punishing spotdodges. Generally speaking the main problem with the matchup is just how much it forces you to be conservative. It's a tiring matchup for sure.

Vs Olimar basically plays similarly to Falco, only you will be alternating between N-airs and D-tilts to approach, rather than walking and crouching. And Olimar gets ***** a lot more by the D-throw since he's fairly easy to techchase and can get **** comboed if he doesn't tech. Plus his floaty nature makes him easier to juggle, while on the flipside, a mistake gets you killed earlier in this matchup.

ZSS is a matchup I really don't understand at all. On paper it really shouldn't be bad at all assuming you can pull off the patient approach properly. I personally find the character hard to pin down in one spot for some reason though due to how fast she moves.

 

[12345678910]

Vs Falco is really stupid but can be fine for most characters as long as you approach it correctly. It's a very slow matchup like many gay matchups. You have to slowly walk and duck your way past lasers. Powershielding his SideB on reaction is recommended, as it's otherwise a retardedly good punish or gtfo option for Falco that supplements his camping strategy. The extra frames you get from powershielding help significantly in keeping yourself in a position that will let you pressure Falco.

His spotdodge is also dumb but G&W has a lot of high damage options for punishing spotdodges. Generally speaking the main problem with the matchup is just how much it forces you to be conservative. It's a tiring matchup for sure.

Vs Olimar basically plays similarly to Falco, only you will be alternating between N-airs and D-tilts to approach, rather than walking and crouching. And Olimar gets ***** a lot more by the D-throw since he's fairly easy to techchase and can get **** comboed if he doesn't tech. Plus his floaty nature makes him easier to juggle, while on the flipside, a mistake gets you killed earlier in this matchup.

ZSS is a matchup I really don't understand at all. On paper it really shouldn't be bad at all assuming you can pull off the patient approach properly. I personally find the character hard to pin down in one spot for some reason though due to how fast she moves.

Why PS the side b on reaction when you can just fsmash right away anyways? You should be punishing all of his side b attempts.
The ZSS match should be bad on paper since she can PS your moves and punish it with her ridiculously fast jab...

The powershield gimmick is pretty tiresome.

Anyways, a falco abusing spotdodge should never be a problem for G&W as he has several long lasting moves such as nair, bair, fsmash. Don't dsmash to edgeguard, you're better off using fsmash or dtilt to send him off. I don't think nair is a good approach in this match-up. UTD you got grabbed out of it in the beginning. Bair's just really good at out-ranging falco here.

When you're at KO percents you should try to lure falco's close ranged laser -> usmash to punish him. He's going to try to kill you with fsmash and bair as well so space some turtles and get some percent off falco when he tries those.

HMW's brawl falco plays exactly the same style as Larry's since Larry was the one who taught him how to play his falco, heh. Yeah Nair definitely isn't something you would want to be using to approach falco horizontally by the looks of your other matches with Larry. UTD, you got grabbed a lot of times because of that.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Why PS the side b on reaction when you can just fsmash right away anyways? You should be punishing all of his side b attempts.

F-smashing has too much commitment and is too slow to hit Falco out of SideB on reaction. You HAVE to powershield his SideB (or D-tilt) to realistically punish it on reaction.

The ZSS match should be bad on paper since she can PS your moves and punish it with her ridiculously fast jab...

What? Since when is any player able to PS 10 frame moves on reaction? Seriously, what is the basis of this garbage theory?

On paper the matchup is much better for G&W since most of ZSS's safer stuff is powershieldable on reaction, and because she is extremely limited when you move between the range of her Jab and SideB.

 

[Noraa]

Thanks mic, I stepped out to get some food ><

Does anyone else have trouble against ZSS, Olimar, Falco, and Lucario... or is it just me?

ZSS i dont think is that much of a problem, just avoid upair and spaced forward b's. I dont know if playing Sassy alot justifies me enough to give input on this match up but i think its 60/40 us. Zac is there something that doesnt make sense in the match up?

Olimar i think is way harder then what other gw's say it is. 50/50 but its still really hard, PS has showed me the true potential of olimar and its scary, iv been playing him for almost a year now and he is beastly. Purple Pikmin>Bair...only thing i know is a must for this MU is when off ledge you must **** (even though watching ps recover is an art and iv seen him make it back SO MANY TIMES where he should have just fell to his death), and if for some weird reason a olimar hits your shield from above then you have to upb and detach all their pikmin (even though no good olimar would attackc your shield from above because they no safe option besides a falling nair that can shield poke and lead to a dsmash or usmash). If you win the ground game then its GG, olimar sucks in the air.....once again just my 2 cents.

Falco i know nothing about i need help with that badly.

Lucario is interesting, i play the mu alot but i cant even put into words what to do lol. I just know the fair->dair airstring if spaced right, you cant punish. If they land the dair right in front of your shield you cant upb(out of hitbox range, even if angled) or fair. You can only run/roll away. They will bait you and make you think you can but they still have that second just and just dair again to catch w.e. you do. I thought you could upb them after the first fair but i couldnt do it...mybe it me.

 

[Magus-Cie]

Olimar I am quickly revising my statement on. I can deal with the disjointed smashes. I can deal with the pikmin spam. But I cannot deal with that ****ed pivot grab. I find you really need to mix up approaches to get Oli, because if you fall into the habit of space turtling he will just run away -> pivot grab. If you mix up approaches (SHAD to UpB works pretty well) you can get him in the air, where you hit your second problem: Oli's air game.

There are only 2 spots in the air you can 100% safely approach him. The bottom front of his frame in air, and the top back. Nair, Uair, Bair, and Fair are all good, but you are aiming for that little spot. Because of the way Oli's smashes come out, stopping an approach from either of those two directions is hard to do unless telegraphed. Other than that, I am not sure about relative priority between the two.


I secondary Lucario, and I have this to say about him: He does not just have disjointed hitboxes, he is disjoint. His air game is fast, and improperly approached can easily string together some Fairs to a Nair and rack up some damage. On paper it would seem like he would never get a Aura Sphere on you, but the truth it a good lucario will not use it in a predictable manner against a GnW because of our bucket, so unless you bucket it on reaction, good luck. FSmash has beastly range and a lingering hitbox. He has good jabs. A few good kill moves. All in all, he is a good character that is limited by his mediocre initial damage/knockback. He is fast enough that by the time he is in kill range, we have problems landing a killing blow, while he is powered up and good to go.

ZSS, not much matchup experience but she seems like she would be easier to deal with. Just sayin...ol' thunderthighs aint got a thing on GnW.

Falco < GnW too.

 

[PentaSalia]

im not siding with anyone but i think PGn getting banned was rather biased
cuz Mr.E was replying with flame/dumb posts as well.

wouldn't it be more fair to ban them both >.>
or just give em both warnings.

i know its offtopic again but i really think his banning was rather unfair.

 

[toobusytocare]

im not siding with anyone but i think PGn getting banned was rather biased
cuz Mr.E was replying with flame/dumb posts as well.

wouldn't it be more fair to ban them both >.>
or just give em both warnings.

i know its offtopic again but i really think his banning was rather unfair.

PGN was actually less ******** with his posting

if anything mr e shouldve been banned LOL

either way, you all play a bad character, get out while you still can haha

 

[PentaSalia]

he isn't a bad character
it's just harder to be good with him
people just don't want to try
they'd rather go the easy way and memorize chain grabs instead lulz

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Do you understand how banning works? You have to get 6 infractions (hence Banned: 6 Points) to get banned. PGN obviously had infractions before the argument and thus got over the 6 points mark. I, however, don't really ever get infractions so I am still here. It's not bias at all, Penta. We likely got the same number of infractions, but as he's a poor user he already had a few.

This is besides the point, though.

Regarding Zac's issues with Falco:
I watched the video and here are a few things that you did wrong, as it seems. Firstly, straight away you tried to approach with Nair while he was still grounded and next to you. This is an easy way for him to get the grab. You want to play as safe as possible early on as to avoid the chaingrab, even if you eat some other attacks. The way I see it, if you can at least trade hits and not get grabbed until you're out of CG range, you're better off than just getting grabbed to begin with as you would then be behind in percent a great deal. So, play safer in the beginning. Even if you try and turtle and eat some lasers, it's better than the CG -> Techchase as you have the ability to do damage back to him.

Besides that, I'm surprised you died from the spike :/
After the first death, you proceeded to continue playing unsafely and got CG'd again for a good deal of damage. After that point and until the transition towards the umbrella part, you played too mindlessly aggressive against DEHF. So you ended up being 2 stocks down and at 50% (you got CG'd before the transition away from the pillar part).

However, from this point on you gained a lot of your momentum back and began doing much better. You brought him down to his last stock from your one stock/kill percents. If you played like you did in that half of the match the entire match, you definitely would of won that match.

So yeah, going off of that single match, you just seem to struggle at low percents. Too much risky play.

I'll watch the ZSS video a bit later, dinner at the moment.

 

[Magus-Cie]

I suck against Falco: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbbPPnhG5GQ
I suck against ZSS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWjnSIxpK-s

Last time I played Fino he beat me.
Lucario is ok. At least I know how to outcamp them now.

Okay, you know what killed you in your ZSS match? Waaaaay too much use of Dair. Every kill Holmes got on you was through predictable use of it.

 

[Megavitamins]

mr escalator stfu, your bad @ this game and theory crafting means dip **** unless you have tourney exp VS decent people, not ****ty NH tourneyes where you get eight ****in dollars for first in teams rofl

and lay off PGN, hes probably the 2nd best gaw, and once Zac quits will be the best in the nation

****ing theory crafter

Spoiler

Report this post, i dare you ****er

oh and gaw vs ics is NOT 65-35 gaws favor on fd AT ALL >_<

 

[Splice]

Out of those 4 MU's (Olimar, Lucario, ZSS, Falco) I've only ever had trouble with Lucario.

Hmm I think Lucario could be a better char than GaW... He's pretty good. I don't know how to deal with the Aura Boost. I haven't encountered any good Falcos yet but good people are starting to main him but I haven't played them yet.

ZSS is pretty easy for me when I pressure the opponent. I can't play campy with lots of dodges because I get outplayed. I gotta keep the clamp down.

Olimar I find is just easy and hilarious.

 

[TheHebrewHammer]

Do you understand how banning works? You have to get 6 infractions (hence Banned: 6 Points) to get banned. PGN obviously had infractions before the argument and thus got over the 6 points mark. I, however, don't really ever get infractions so I am still here. It's not bias at all, Penta. We likely got the same number of infractions, but as he's a poor user he already had a few.

This is besides the point, though.

Regarding Zac's issues with Falco:
I watched the video and here are a few things that you did wrong, as it seems. Firstly, straight away you tried to approach with Nair while he was still grounded and next to you. This is an easy way for him to get the grab. You want to play as safe as possible early on as to avoid the chaingrab, even if you eat some other attacks. The way I see it, if you can at least trade hits and not get grabbed until you're out of CG range, you're better off than just getting grabbed to begin with as you would then be behind in percent a great deal. So, play safer in the beginning. Even if you try and turtle and eat some lasers, it's better than the CG -> Techchase as you have the ability to do damage back to him.

Besides that, I'm surprised you died from the spike :/
After the first death, you proceeded to continue playing unsafely and got CG'd again for a good deal of damage. After that point and until the transition towards the umbrella part, you played too mindlessly aggressive against DEHF. So you ended up being 2 stocks down and at 50% (you got CG'd before the transition away from the pillar part).

However, from this point on you gained a lot of your momentum back and began doing much better. You brought him down to his last stock from your one stock/kill percents. If you played like you did in that half of the match the entire match, you definitely would of won that match.

So yeah, going off of that single match, you just seem to struggle at low percents. Too much risky play.

I'll watch the ZSS video a bit later, dinner at the moment.

You need to be playing agressively against Falco until you get the lead, in which you just stand back and wait for him to approach, because GaW can duck under lasers or bucket them. Take the laser hits to avoid getting cged, becauseifyoug et cged not only does it lead to 50 just from grabs, but it can get up to 70. I dunno if you want to trust me with this advice, but I play sk92 aloot at my house and I know the matchup. o also something useful to know is that falcos side B clanks with a bucket full of lasers, don't try using it then.

ZSS don't even try bucketing her projectiles, because you can be put in the worst situation where she gets that 30+ percent combo on you.

Olimar play super agressive against, I can't really help you with this one, because, most olimar players I play I ****, but then whenever I fight a really good one I get demolished. Also keep nairing so pikmin can't land on you. Pivot grab destroys GaW approaches, when I playedsleeh( a really good olimar in california) I tried approaching him and I got pivot grabbed a lot, until I stopped falling for it, Olimar is **** hard for a predictable char like GaW
I'll add late, but I got class now.

 

[Zekeishere]

I respect HebrewHammer's opinion. But I play against Falco completely different. I play DEHF like a hell of a lot, and I play to NOT get grabbed. I poke him with the very tip of turtle so I don't get grabbed. And if I have a 1% lead I go to the edge, and duck. I play extremely safe, because one grab and its 70%. Seriously.

But if you do get falco in the air, where they don't have their 2nd jump. Keep U airing them. Falco has almost 0 options for getting out of U Air/Nair strings with out getting punished. =P

Just my two cents on Falco.

And Don't bucket Larry's Lasers, But Bucket SK92s lasers. He's a lot more spammy with them. Lol.

 

[A2ZOMG]

DEHF is mad gay. He semi-destroyed me first time I ever played him.

I almost beat him and Bigfoot in teams...except he's ****ing DEHF lmao.

 

[MrsSaturnandWatch]

Almost doesn't cut it so noting to brag there

 

[A2ZOMG]

But it was from a 2v1 comeback and I only got onestocked.

 

[UTDZac]

I almost lost to DEHF in teams at Genesis. Dojo and I had to play him and Champ (I think that's his name... a fox player).

We won game 1 fairly easily. Game 2 was super close. We were losing the whole time. At the end it was everyone down to 1 stock. DEHF was at 0 and everyone else as at 100%. Dojo comboed DEHF into the air. DEHF escaped with SideB. I saw it over and SideB-ed him has he fell between two Battlefield platforms. It was an 8, froze him in place, then I guessed when he would pop out by listening to his wiggling speed, NINE! Needless to say, we won that match =D