Mr Escalator - Turnabout Post
Heh.
It seems that I have lulled you guys into a false sense of security.
FD: 35:65
SV: 45:55
BF: 45:55
Lylat: 4:6
Yoshi's: 4:6
Brinstar / RC: 6:4
First off, let's take a look at these matchup ratios depending on the stage. You've listed FD->Lylat=Yoshi->SV=BF as the starter ratios from worst to best, the best being still in their advantage. Our counterpick stages are then in our favor slightly.
This doesn't seem outwardly wrong, but it should after I break it down. Game & Watch versus Ice Climbers on Rainbow Cruise, according to you, is the same difficulty rating for them as Lylat is for us in the matchup. Going off of this, it is clearly in our advantage to the same degree as it's in their advantage on one of our better starters... Really? The difference between Brinstar/RC and Lylat is by that big a margin? I'm not buying that much. You also imply that Lylat is worse for us than SV in the matchup, despite the obvious benefit gained from so many platforms opposed to a single platform. Don't get me wrong, I understand how valuable that moving platform is, but what you must realize is that G&W isn't MK and that he cannot abuse the moving platform as well as MK can with his gliding and numerous jumps. The lylat platforms provides permanent advantageous positioning opposed to the clearly situational advantages gained from the SV platform.
Not only that, you have Smashville listed under the same ratio as Battlefield, which is kinda amazing seeing as it's our clear favorite starter in the matchup versus Ice Climbers. Permanent positional advantage in the platforms is great as is, but the top platform really cinches it for the matchup. It gives you so much space to play gay against ICs, while the most they can do in response is typically Uair.
I don't disagree with FD being terrible for us, though I do only think it's 6:4 if you forced a serious response out of me, but the thing is, FD doesn't matter. Yes, I'm completely serious about this; Final Destination doesn't play much of a part in this matchup. I shouldn't need to explain myself, but just in case, I will. Final Destination is typically our worst legal stage in most matchups, and therefore it is common for G&W mains to strike it first in the first match and even to go on and use their ban on it. With Ice Climbers, it's quite clearly their best legal stage, so the smart thing to do is the same as the usual thing done; strike and ban FD. It's not like you are radically changing your game plan, Game & Watch usually does this same thing, it's just that IC's makes this a no brainer. Bringing this part to a conclusion, Final Destination doesn't see play in this matchup, and it really doesn't matter all that much what the actual ratio on it is.
Regardless, lets move on to the notion that no platforms = easy pivot grabbing. To begin with, I'll just mention that whoever made this claim up in regards to it working on G&W is dumb. With that out of the way, lets talk about it more in depth. The facts are:
- Ice Climbers have a pretty mediocre grab range
- Their pivot grab has the only decent range out of all of them (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ag4JkYeC5o)
- G&W's Turtle is long and disjointed, with startup being the only downside (Hits on f10)
So, there is no way Ice Climbers can grab during the turtle, or after considering the cooldown/landing hitbox/disjointedness and with good air control. This covers pretty much all bases aside from pivot grabbing during the startup, which is what I assume you are referring to when you mention it being possible. Quite obviously, you are not spacing correctly. It's that simple. Have you never fought a good Yoshi/Olimar/etc and their excessive use of pivot grabbing? If you are spacing turtles the same way you space against a Ganon, of course your **** is gonna get wrecked. Learn when and where you are safe to use it, and apply liberal use of air control during and after startup.
This doesn't even take platforms into consideration, which obviously help dealing with them. IC's can obviously grab a Dair when they are grounded (P.S. dont dair grounded foes), and I wouldnt want to try Nair/Fair either, but there is no excuse for not spacing out of range of a pivot grab. It's like the same range to punish them rolling back, practically.
Basically, the vibe I'm getting is that PGN just blows against fighting defensive opponents and he can't adapt. It would easily explain his thoughts on the Diddy matchup.
Anyway, a more realistic breakdown of the matchup on stages would be thus, imo of course:
4:6 Final Destination You wont be here, don't worry
45:55 Yoshi's Island
50:50 Smashville and Lylat
55:45 Battlefield
6:4 Brinstar/Halberd/Delfino
65:45 Rainbow Cruise
Going off of these ratios I made up on the spot, the first game will typically take place on either Lylat or SV, not taking into consideration personal preferences. They are even against each other in the first match. Now, if G&W wins he practically gets another win because of his numerous options to counterpick into. Not always, of course, but basically it boils down to that. If ICs win, they only get to CP later into a stage that is even or barely advantageous to them, meaning we have a solid chance of winning that. In a Best out of Five, it's even more in our favor, as we still have lots of choices, whereas they have less.
This doesn't, at all, take into consideration of a more liberal stage list. I'm going off of a stage list that favors Ice Climbers (Atlantic North stage list). If, instead, I went 7 starters and had a more CP rich list (think Norfair), it's clearly in our favor because of the options.
Even if you don't agree with my matchup ratios on the stage, you can still see my logic regarding why I think this matchup is in our favor, right? First match of the set is on their terms, yet still close to even or even, then another match like that OR an easy counterpick win for us.
I've already spent too much time addressing you, though, so I won't get into
WHY I believe those ratios to be accurate. I guess a condensed version is that I value our ability to play gay with platforms versus them, I value how amazing we are at edgeguarding, and I value being able to completely tool on Nana and keep them separated highly. That is for another time, I guess.
That was a big derail whew (not as big of a derail as my trolling LOL), but I'll respond to the person who actually wanted to continue with the point of this thread.
Why would GnW be so low comparatively speaking when he has such good matchups against the better characters in the cast? Im not toting GnW for #1, but I would be vastly surprised if he went down to C tier.
He wouldn't be so low. In fact, he
won't be in C tier, and it's doubtful he will be in B, let alone the lower half of B. Ignoring the obvious amazing matchups G&W has in the mid to lower tiers, G&W does solidly versus the top half of the cast. The only real issues for Game & Watch are a million MKs, some random Marths, and Diddy/Snake. I kept Diddy and Snake together because I think those matchups aren't ultimately that difficult. It's mainly that those are really deep matchups to learn that seem dreadful at first glance but really ultimately aren't.
MK himself and how many there are brings G&W down a good deal, but I wouldn't say farther down than someone like Falco. That's actually fairly good parallel; Falco and G&W are hurt by MK's presence the same amount but in different ways. Falco has issues with planking, but not fighting on "fair" terms. G&W has some issues with fighting MK outright, but has no difficulties with planking. Falco seems less hurt by MK because of the presence of planking bans and restrictions (which don't help G&W).
What really kills our placement is the lack of representation. We don't have enough high level players. Moreso than characters who are pretty much as good as us (Falco/Dedede/Olimar), we suffer from having few mains. UTD Zac is pretty much the only one holding up our attendance. It doesn't help we still have mains whining about matchups being unwinnable that scare away any and all potential new comers.
tl;dr G&W shouldn't go down anymore, but likely will because people have a bad opinion of how good he is (like Ike???).
A2ZOMG, I've made this post too big, so I will just drop you a message instead, bro.
Keep on rocking, G&W boards.
