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Social Disciples of Dark Samus

Diem

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I'm actually somewhat doubtful Dark Samus will play a role in this new story mode. Reason being is she's an echo fighter, ie an easy to make clone who was likely only added into the roster very late in development and was likely not planned to be in the game by the time the plan for the story mode was fleshed out in a significant way.

Same can be said for Chrom and Daisy as well. Dark Pit and Lucina are veterans and were likely implemented early enough to be part of the plan and Richter based on the fact that he's the only echo fighter introduced with a flashy CGI trailer and the way they described Simon and Richter being echos of eachother, Richter may have also been planned early on.

But Dark Samus, Chrom and Daisy; plus whoever else will be added later (Shadow, Dixie, Impa, etc) will likely not be part of the story mode either...

That said we still don't really know what this story mode will entail or how it will function compared to both SSE and Melee's Adventure mode.
My prediction is that it'll be somewhat of a hybrid between Melee's Adventure Mode and All Star Mode. It'll be more formal than Melee's Adventure Mode, but it's definitely not going to be on the scale of SSE like many people are expecting. I don't think there will be any actual story to it, just like Melee, but there will be a bit more consistency than in Melee.

On the slim chance that there is an actual Story with 70+ characters, though, I believe all the Echo Fighters will be included. Dark Pit, Lucina, and Dr. Mario in Smash 4 were alternate costumes until the dev team decided to split them into their own characters during development. Hence, Dark Pit and Lucina are basically just alt skins with little functional difference. It's clear with Ultimate, though, that the Echo Fighters were planned from the beginning, hence their designation. It's evident with how much more work is put into them as opposed to their forerunners from the previous game. Daisy and Dark Samus have their own unique animations, and Chrom has a different character's move. Richter was so significant they had him as part of the trailer for Simon.

So Echo Fighters here aren't late additions like previous Echo Fighters or clones. And thank Sakurai for that, because if they were as simple as Dark Pit and Lucina, that'd be disappointing.
 

NintenRob

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I like the idea of something similar to the Great Maze from Brawl, you explore a metroidvania like world to unlock all the characters, maybe bosses can give items that can be equipped to taunt buttons needed to proceed to different areas. And have the areas actually be based on actual games!


Sounds like too much though, I don't think this Spirits mode will be anything close to that ambitious. I personally think the 100+ stages is a result of the game being more focused with no Subspace or 3DS version to worry about.
 

Crooked Crow

drank from lakes of sorrow
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Messages
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Really digging this character so far. She looks great, pretty excited to play her.
 

ChronoBound

Smash Hero
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To be fair, I'm not sure even a non-brainwashed Ridley would approve of Dark Samus. A mutual hatred of Samus is all they share, but I don't think he'd appreciate anything that remotely reminds him of her. And of course the whole brainwashing thing.

I just read over a piece of Elysian lore kind of related to this... it says the Pirates were pretty much sustained and kept alive by their Phazon corruption, more specifically Dark Samus's brand of corruption. Does that mean their bodies are clinically dead, and Dark Samus IS the one who technically killed the hunters? :dizzy:

Another lore piece from the Pirates that I missed for several years, mentions how Dark Samus seems utterly unconcerned with Samus's progress up to that point. Huh. Guess she shares more with Ganondorf than I thought.
Dark Samus seems like she had multiple contingency plans. She probably knew Samus was the biggest threat to her plans, and had the greatest willpower (she probably surmised that Samus was the one to activate Norion's defense systems before she fell unconscious). She probably thought it was a waiting game that Samus could not possibly win even if she did destroy each phazon seed (because if you noticed in Prime 3, the phazon corruption in Samus got much worse every time she destroyed a seed).

Dark Samus was actually in the process of activating her contingency plan according to this unused Prime 3 scan:

The fury of our leader is great. Many disciples have experienced her wrath since Urtraghus fell. However, despite our defeat, her confidence is unbroken. Soon the next phase of her campaign shall take effect against the Federation.

The Aurora has performed the last calculations. Our leader is ready to strike. Soon, Phaaze will sow a large number of Phazon Seeds. They will feel hundreds of Federation worlds. This blow may be the end of Phaaze, but our leader is without worry. For hundreds of live Phazon worlds will replace it.

Dark Samus was very close to winning the war. A large portion of the Federation forces were being used to fight the Pirate armada orbitting Phaaze. Dark Samus surmised this was the perfect opportunity to overwhelm the Federation with just how many Leviathans were going to be shot towards them.

She also estimated that Samus was on the cusp of total corruption, and she would not survive long with her own will on Phaaze (the corruption got so bad for Samus on Phaaze that her own ship no longer recognized her as Samus). Samus pretty much was locked into a death battle the moment she stepped foot on Phaaze. If she did not remove the corruption within her, she would literally become another Dark Samus, and DS likely knew this.

Dark Samus would have become a living god in the Metroid universe had Samus's will been broken on Phaaze or she lost the battle with her later on. There is actually no other villains in the Smash Bros. series who ever had such a grandiose endgame as Dark Samus. Even Ganondorf/Ganon is contained to Hyrule, and there existed failsafes that ensured Ganondorf would never have the full power of the Triforce or if he did there would be a way around his rule (like the Triforce warping his wish to rule the world by simply giving him a world of his own in the form of the Dark World in the A Link To The Past timeline).

And at the same time, Dark Samus has the most primitive of goals. The same goal of nearly all life. The propagation of its species. Dark Samus, probably felt compelled on a genetic level to spread phazon throughout the universe. There is a lot that can be said about Dark Samus in general.

As for Ridley and Dark Samus being companions or allies, I think Ridley would agree to serve under Dark Samus without brainwashing and would probably even have respect for her if his personality in the Metroid manga is anything to go by. Ridley respects ruthlessness, leadership, and competence (see how Ridley agreed to serve Mother Brain and how he followed an order from Gray Voice), and Dark Samus had all three of these qualities in spades.

I would also say Ridley probably coordinated with Dark Samus before he was ever corrupted by phazon (he was still Meta Ridley during the battle of Norion). It was only when he faced grave injuries again that he was likely subject to phazon enhancements, and then enthralled by the Phazon Seed on Urtraghus/Pirate Homeworld to defend it.

Ridley's philosophy in general seems to boil down to "might makes right" (and perhaps this might have been an inspiration for Ridley becoming your ally in the Pyrosphere if you beat on him). Dark Samus is incredibly strong and resilient, Ridley would probably respect that even if they were not on the same side. Ridley and Dark Samus having a mutual nemesis probably would make them comrades, and maybe even friends if they are capable of the concept (which is unknown for the both of these characters). Dark Samus probably earned Ridley's respect and service when he heard about the successful raid of the GFS Valhalla and just how ruthless she was (she ordered the Pirates to jettison surviving Federation soldiers into the vacuum of space). Ridley and Dark Samus might also be mutually impressed with the times they both cheated death (Ridley is the Cunning God of Death afterall) and how they were able to survive in conditions that would kill most other beings.

Their hatred of Samus would be glue that would bind these two together. Dark Samus probably relishes battle just as much as Ridley and probably both of them would have fun causing misery and mayhem to the Federation together.

Yeah, Dark Samus, despite having an obvious rivalry with Samus, doesn't seem all that interested in her. They only ever encounter each other by chance in Metroid Prime 2, crossing paths as Dark Samus is just looking for Phazon. And despite getting beaten by Samus consistently, Dark Samus doesn't seem phased by it. Instead, she seems to be consistently cocky, laughing at Samus and trapping the two of them so that neither of them can escape. She's certainly never lacking in self-confidence. Hard to blame her when she can singlehandedly brainwash an entire race, take control of some of the galaxy's greatest warriors, and begin conquering the galaxy by spreading Phazon across entire planets.
I do think Dark Samus hates Samus and would like to see her either as her slave (as another Dark Samus) or a dead trophy. Dark Samus was not concerned with hunting Samus down during Prime 2 because she was obsessed with phazon (to the point where she was deteriorating). Dark Samus was Metroid Prime in her previous life, and now she found herself with a human genome, and humans... well they are pretty susceptible to becoming addicted to things that give them pleasure or sustenance (food, sex, substances that elicit "good feeling" hormones). Dark Samus was new to her life as a mutated phazon metroid/human hybrid, and likely did not know her new body could only take so much phazon or that she was becoming a slave to it. Dark Samus probably came to this realization by the end of Prime 2.

As I said, a lot can be said about Dark Samus.
 
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meleebrawler

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It's totally possible that there's two sides to the Federation, and that's the cause of that discrepancy. That would actually be better writing, to have there naturally be good and bad about such a large organization, as having them just be one or the other would be rather shallow and one-dimensional.

The problem is just that, so far, it hasn't been handled well. That's because Retro out in Texas did their own thing, and Sakamoto over in Japan does his own thing. Retro's version makes more sense in-universe, since Samus is a valuable ally to the Federation and it would make sense that they respect her for all she's done for them. Sakamoto's version is more or less a ripoff of ideas from Alien, the franchise that initially inspired much of Metroid. Except now there's no reason to continue borrowing from Alien because Metroid has grown into its own thing and should be able to use its own ideas.

Other M states that, despite taking place after Super Metroid, which is after the Prime series, it's Samus's first mission with the Federation on her own. This led some people to believe that the Prime games weren't canon, but in truth it's just a continuity error because Sakamoto has his own vision for Metroid and Samus, and it's not what we get in the Prime games, despite the Prime games being most people's favorite interpretation of things. This illustrates that the discrepancy in the Federation's representation has more to do with the different developers ignoring the other games and less about these things being planned intelligently. Sakamoto wasn't thinking at all about Admiral Dane when he was writing Other M. Thankfully Other M has been widely acknowledged as being a mess and contrary to almost all established depictions of Samus and the universe, and Samus Returns and Metroid Prime 4 are putting the series back on the right track.

I haven't fully played through Fusion yet, though I plan to do so soon, but it seems like it leaves the series in a bad place story-wise. Not sure how well the story of the next chronological game would be if Other M is any indication of how a larger "The Federation is shady and evil and out to get Samus" story were to be the focus. It could be executed well, but it would require a great deal of craft that most Nintendo games in general don't bother with. They'd need people who really know what they're doing to carry the Metroid franchise forward.
Actually, I may have found a tidbit in yet another piece of Prime 3 pirate lore concerning the Federation's ethics... the log describing the attack on Valhalla mentions they got the intel needed through bribes. Now it doesn't specify who, but who other than the Federation would be privy to such information?

I honestly don't think even Sakamoto's games try to paint the Federation as bad as possible. We only have Adam's vague word about "the Federation" being interested in the SA-X, and he obviously wasn't interested in telling Samus more than that (or might not even know himself). Let's be real though, the next 2D Metroid is probably going to focus on that rogue faction of Chozo introduced in Samus Returns more than the Federation, so they don't necessarily have to tackle that trust issue right away.

I do think Dark Samus hates Samus and would like to see her either as her slave (as another Dark Samus) or a dead trophy. Dark Samus was not concerned with hunting Samus down during Prime 2 because she was obsessed with phazon (to the point where she was deteriorating). Dark Samus was Metroid Prime in her previous life, and now she found herself with a human genome, and humans... well they are pretty susceptible to becoming addicted to things that give them pleasure or sustenance (food, sex, substances that elicit "good feeling" hormones). Dark Samus was new to her life as a mutated phazon metroid/human hybrid, and likely did not know her new body could only take so much phazon or that she was becoming a slave to it. Dark Samus probably came to this realization by the end of Prime 2.

As I said, a lot can be said about Dark Samus.
All she did in her previous life as Metroid Prime was gorge itself with Phazon provided by the Tallon IV leviathan, apparently to the point of actually becoming it's own core as a source of Phazon (maybe it ate the core itself?). It's attempt at taking the Phazon suit is an extension of this, and initially she carries on in the exact same fashion in Prime 2. She has absolutely no indication of a sapient mind, until that laugh is heard and later on makes a deliberate attempt to hinder Samus by destroying the Sanctuary Fortress bridge, but is still more concerned with getting Phazon. Only in the final encounter does she truly see and hate Samus as her enemy, trapping her on a collapsing planet for a battle to the death, even though she now has finally had her fill of Phazon. Consuming it didn't just make her stronger, it made her smarter too. And of course once Prime 3 hits she learns to look at the big picture.
 
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Aetheri

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Thought I'd post this since it's a bit of an overview on everything Dark Samus (and Metroid Prime)...however it's pretty much just limited to her appearances in Metroid and Smash since she hasn't had an appearance outside of those games yet.

I'm actually curious about her possible appearances in the future. I wonder if Prime 4 will have multiplayer, akin to Hunters, if Dark Samus will playable in that mode in some way (which would be frikkin sweet). Being an actual fighter in Smash could potentially open up a lot of doors for the character, especially considering how many characters and franchises have gained an insane boost in popularity simply due to being in Smash (Metroid in a sense could be an example since the plan for Prime may have been a result of Samus's part in Smash 64 and Melee) or even just by having people want them in Smash.

I have been thinking of a possible theory on her possible return to the series. Much like most other phazon corrupted beings Dark Samus started off as a creature that had nothing to do with Phazon being a Metroid at one point, over time Metroid Prime and Dark Samus became very dependent on phazon but still one that had a less mutated beginning. But characters like Samus and Ridley both returned after being heavily corrupted by the substance, so it could be possible that she may return as well.
Couple this with Samus's Phazon Suit. While the substance itself is no more the remains of Samus's suit and the technology that it bares, could serve to possibly stablize Dark Samus, or at least an apparition or spirit of Dark Samus, to an extent that would allow her to reincarnate. She could return in the form of some very ghostly until she finds something similar to phazon that would give her power once again, or perhaps pull a Little Birdie in a way and be reborn in some sort of larval state, once again when exposed to something like phazon that would give her more power to be reborn as Dark Samus again or another form of Dark Samus.
 

Diem

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So I have a new job where I sit at a front desk for 3 hours per shift and don't have anything to do when I'm not helping people, so I have little to spend the time except SmashBoards and stuff. Here we go.

Dark Samus seems like she had multiple contingency plans. She probably knew Samus was the biggest threat to her plans, and had the greatest willpower (she probably surmised that Samus was the one to activate Norion's defense systems before she fell unconscious). She probably thought it was a waiting game that Samus could not possibly win even if she did destroy each phazon seed (because if you noticed in Prime 3, the phazon corruption in Samus got much worse every time she destroyed a seed).

Dark Samus was actually in the process of activating her contingency plan according to this unused Prime 3 scan:

The fury of our leader is great. Many disciples have experienced her wrath since Urtraghus fell. However, despite our defeat, her confidence is unbroken. Soon the next phase of her campaign shall take effect against the Federation.

The Aurora has performed the last calculations. Our leader is ready to strike. Soon, Phaaze will sow a large number of Phazon Seeds. They will feel hundreds of Federation worlds. This blow may be the end of Phaaze, but our leader is without worry. For hundreds of live Phazon worlds will replace it.

Dark Samus was very close to winning the war. A large portion of the Federation forces were being used to fight the Pirate armada orbitting Phaaze. Dark Samus surmised this was the perfect opportunity to overwhelm the Federation with just how many Leviathans were going to be shot towards them.

She also estimated that Samus was on the cusp of total corruption, and she would not survive long with her own will on Phaaze (the corruption got so bad for Samus on Phaaze that her own ship no longer recognized her as Samus). Samus pretty much was locked into a death battle the moment she stepped foot on Phaaze. If she did not remove the corruption within her, she would literally become another Dark Samus, and DS likely knew this.

Dark Samus would have become a living god in the Metroid universe had Samus's will been broken on Phaaze or she lost the battle with her later on. There is actually no other villains in the Smash Bros. series who ever had such a grandiose endgame as Dark Samus. Even Ganondorf/Ganon is contained to Hyrule, and there existed failsafes that ensured Ganondorf would never have the full power of the Triforce or if he did there would be a way around his rule (like the Triforce warping his wish to rule the world by simply giving him a world of his own in the form of the Dark World in the A Link To The Past timeline).

And at the same time, Dark Samus has the most primitive of goals. The same goal of nearly all life. The propagation of its species. Dark Samus, probably felt compelled on a genetic level to spread phazon throughout the universe. There is a lot that can be said about Dark Samus in general.

As for Ridley and Dark Samus being companions or allies, I think Ridley would agree to serve under Dark Samus without brainwashing and would probably even have respect for her if his personality in the Metroid manga is anything to go by. Ridley respects ruthlessness, leadership, and competence (see how Ridley agreed to serve Mother Brain and how he followed an order from Gray Voice), and Dark Samus had all three of these qualities in spades.

I would also say Ridley probably coordinated with Dark Samus before he was ever corrupted by phazon (he was still Meta Ridley during the battle of Norion). It was only when he faced grave injuries again that he was likely subject to phazon enhancements, and then enthralled by the Phazon Seed on Urtraghus/Pirate Homeworld to defend it.

Ridley's philosophy in general seems to boil down to "might makes right" (and perhaps this might have been an inspiration for Ridley becoming your ally in the Pyrosphere if you beat on him). Dark Samus is incredibly strong and resilient, Ridley would probably respect that even if they were not on the same side. Ridley and Dark Samus having a mutual nemesis probably would make them comrades, and maybe even friends if they are capable of the concept (which is unknown for the both of these characters). Dark Samus probably earned Ridley's respect and service when he heard about the successful raid of the GFS Valhalla and just how ruthless she was (she ordered the Pirates to jettison surviving Federation soldiers into the vacuum of space). Ridley and Dark Samus might also be mutually impressed with the times they both cheated death (Ridley is the Cunning God of Death afterall) and how they were able to survive in conditions that would kill most other beings.

Their hatred of Samus would be glue that would bind these two together. Dark Samus probably relishes battle just as much as Ridley and probably both of them would have fun causing misery and mayhem to the Federation together.



I do think Dark Samus hates Samus and would like to see her either as her slave (as another Dark Samus) or a dead trophy. Dark Samus was not concerned with hunting Samus down during Prime 2 because she was obsessed with phazon (to the point where she was deteriorating). Dark Samus was Metroid Prime in her previous life, and now she found herself with a human genome, and humans... well they are pretty susceptible to becoming addicted to things that give them pleasure or sustenance (food, sex, substances that elicit "good feeling" hormones). Dark Samus was new to her life as a mutated phazon metroid/human hybrid, and likely did not know her new body could only take so much phazon or that she was becoming a slave to it. Dark Samus probably came to this realization by the end of Prime 2.

As I said, a lot can be said about Dark Samus.
Damn, where'd you find that unused log? That's really interesting. I guess it was taken out because they couldn't find a place to put it (since it's written after the seed in the Pirate Homeworld is destroyed, but after that is when the game is almost done and there's not really anywhere else to go), but it offers a huge amount of insight into Dark Samus and her plans.

I almost said earlier that Dark Samus's mindset in Metroid Prime 2 might just be "Phazon Phazon Phazon Phazon Phazon." That's all she's really doing throughout the entire game: absorbing as much as she can, almost like she's addicted to it, as you said. Who knows if her animosity towards Dark Samus has anything to do with who Samus is, or if it's just that she's trying to fend off anyone that might take the Phazon instead of her. By the end she's absorbed so much that it's almost killing her. The final two scans in the game say:

"Scans indicate that Dark Samus has absorbed tremendous levels of Phazon into her body: too much, perhaps. She can vent Phazon energy in the form of destructive blasts and protective shields: doing so will help her maintain stability..."

And:

"Dark Samus has temporarily become a being of pure yet unstable Phazon energy. She can generate a shield that is invulnerable to all attacks, save one - blasts of Phazon energy itself. Use your Charge Beam to collect Phazon energy that she expels, then fire it back at her. Direct hits will overload and disrupt her essence."

I mean, the fact that her outer shell has become so disrupted to the point of transparency shows just how unstable she got. Who knows how much more until she just exploded? It'd be like overdosing on drugs or something.

It's not until Metroid Prime 3 and her arrival at Phaaze that she seems to become more intelligent and redirect her goals. At that point, she's found the source of all Phazon, as much as she'll ever need. Phaaze is a sentient planet, so it's hard to say if she's acting out its will or if she's the one taking over. And she's no longer mindlessly consuming Phazon, as she's still unstable, but not unstable enough to see her skeleton again. Perhaps that's a sign that the planet Phaaze itself is influencing her rather than the other way around.

Though I'm not entirely sure that Dark Samus's goal is overtly primitive. Even in Metroid Prime 2 she possesses more personality than we even see with Ridley in the games. The way she laughs and taunts Samus over and over again are part of what shows her having more intelligence than most other beasts in the series, as it shows a capacity of humor or contempt. And I love the implication of that unused Pirate log, where after the final Leviathan seed was destroyed, Dark Samus probably just started indiscriminately blasting her own brainwashed soldiers out of sheer rage, showing her cruelty. The deaths of the other hunters are also a display of her cruelty, as she uses it to try and demoralize Samus. Dark Samus isn't just acting out of instinct; she's genuinely intelligent and evil.

As such, it's possible that her goals are out of a more intelligent lust for power. This would explain her cockiness when encountering Samus in Metroid Prime 2, since she believes herself to be more powerful than Samus (especially after nearly killing her in their very first encounter in Dark Aether). And with each encounter, she's absorbed more Phazon and become even more powerful, so surely she must be better than Samus. But they're both becoming more powerful in tandem, and each time Samus beats Dark Samus, despite Dark Samus becoming more powerful as time goes on.

This is also why she brainwashes the Space Pirates and corrupts the hunters; she gets to enslave them, exercising her power over others in an incredibly sinister way. And among those, Samus is the most powerful, so she'd be the grandest prize. This is supported by Ghor after he's corrupted, as he says to Samus "Don't you feel the power? Soon everything will be corrupted--even you." It seems to imply it's less about hunger or reproduction as it is about power and control. I imagine that she revels in the fact that the Space Pirates worship her, instead of being indifferent to it.

Which is interesting when you think about Dark Samus's origins. Her creation was an accident, giving her the humblest of beginnings. No one would even know about her if she stayed on Tallon IV. It's only because she traveled to Aether that she was discovered by the Space Pirates and Samus. And in the end, she almost succeeds in dominating the entire galaxy. She came from nothing, but almost conquered everything.

We're probably thinking about this way more than anyone at Retro Studios ever did :psycho:

You're right that Dark Samus is way more sinister and threatening than Ganondorf. Unless you count Gorea (which is absurd god-level powerful), Dark Samus is the most powerful entity in all of Metroid, and thus probably all of Smash. There's other Nintendo characters that variously are on par. Dimentio from Super Paper Mario almost wiped out all of existence to rebuild the universe in his image, and is probably one of the darkest villains Nintendo has had, let alone for a Mario game. It's a shame we'll definitely never see him again.

One thing that displeases me the most in stories is when good characters die "young" so to speak. Rundas and the other hunters in Corruption are the worst case in the series, because their roles were so short, yet they had so much potential to be used elsewhere. Dark Samus also could have used more time in the spotlight, as she only had a few appearances across two games. In the first game she wasn't really part of the plot, she was just here and there doing her own thing until you bump into her. In the second game, she's the main antagonist of the plot, but she's sitting back while she lets her plan unfold, not actively engaging Samus.

Phazon and Dark Samus are done with according to Kensuke Tanabe, so unless he changes his mind or someone else brings her back for some reason, Prime 2 and 3 are all we get, sadly. But at least Dark Samus is immortalized in the biggest Smash game there will ever be, and I'll gladly take that.

I'm gonna make a video about Dark Samus getting into Smash soon, since I realized I could put my video-editing skills to use to convey my thoughts better. Already started on the script, though I probably won't be done until next month.

Actually, I may have found a tidbit in yet another piece of Prime 3 pirate lore concerning the Federation's ethics... the log describing the attack on Valhalla mentions they got the intel needed through bribes. Now it doesn't specify who, but who other than the Federation would be privy to such information?

I honestly don't think even Sakamoto's games try to paint the Federation as bad as possible. We only have Adam's vague word about "the Federation" being interested in the SA-X, and he obviously wasn't interested in telling Samus more than that (or might not even know himself). Let's be real though, the next 2D Metroid is probably going to focus on that rogue faction of Chozo introduced in Samus Returns more than the Federation, so they don't necessarily have to tackle that trust issue right away.



All she did in her previous life as Metroid Prime was gorge itself with Phazon provided by the Tallon IV leviathan, apparently to the point of actually becoming it's own core as a source of Phazon (maybe it ate the core itself?). It's attempt at taking the Phazon suit is an extension of this, and initially she carries on in the exact same fashion in Prime 2. She has absolutely no indication of a sapient mind, until that laugh is heard and later on makes a deliberate attempt to hinder Samus by destroying the Sanctuary Fortress bridge, but is still more concerned with getting Phazon. Only in the final encounter does she truly see and hate Samus as her enemy, trapping her on a collapsing planet for a battle to the death, even though she now has finally had her fill of Phazon. Consuming it didn't just make her stronger, it made her smarter too. And of course once Prime 3 hits she learns to look at the big picture.
That's an interesting find. Good on Retro for implying a darker side to the Federation, then. I wish they could have become the stewards of the franchise, but it seems that most of the talent on those projects were tired of Metroid and wanted to move on to other things, either with Nintendo or with other developers.

Those rogue Chozo are way more interesting than anything that's been presented about the Federation across any of the games, though. Like I said, the dark side of the Federation is more or less a ripoff of the Weyland-Yutani/USM business in the Alien franchise. It's one of the oldest clichés in the book: business/government clones/does genetic experiments to create weapons. It's been done to death, and hardly ever done well. But those glimpses of the Chozo on SR-388? The scientists make Metroids, the Metroids go nuts, the soldiers show up and the scientists think they're saved, and the guy in charge was probably like "What the hell did you idiots do down here?" and orders his soldiers to smoke everyone and then said "Clean this **** up."

Up to then, the Chozo were just one of those super-wise and peaceful races. Now we know that there's apparently a merciless Chozo warlord in command of a legion of soldiers in Varia suits, and he's still out there somewhere. That's a way more interesting premise than the Federation just being stupid and repeatedly cloning things for dumb reasons.

Thought I'd post this since it's a bit of an overview on everything Dark Samus (and Metroid Prime)...however it's pretty much just limited to her appearances in Metroid and Smash since she hasn't had an appearance outside of those games yet.

I'm actually curious about her possible appearances in the future. I wonder if Prime 4 will have multiplayer, akin to Hunters, if Dark Samus will playable in that mode in some way (which would be frikkin sweet). Being an actual fighter in Smash could potentially open up a lot of doors for the character, especially considering how many characters and franchises have gained an insane boost in popularity simply due to being in Smash (Metroid in a sense could be an example since the plan for Prime may have been a result of Samus's part in Smash 64 and Melee) or even just by having people want them in Smash.

I have been thinking of a possible theory on her possible return to the series. Much like most other phazon corrupted beings Dark Samus started off as a creature that had nothing to do with Phazon being a Metroid at one point, over time Metroid Prime and Dark Samus became very dependent on phazon but still one that had a less mutated beginning. But characters like Samus and Ridley both returned after being heavily corrupted by the substance, so it could be possible that she may return as well.
Couple this with Samus's Phazon Suit. While the substance itself is no more the remains of Samus's suit and the technology that it bares, could serve to possibly stablize Dark Samus, or at least an apparition or spirit of Dark Samus, to an extent that would allow her to reincarnate. She could return in the form of some very ghostly until she finds something similar to phazon that would give her power once again, or perhaps pull a Little Birdie in a way and be reborn in some sort of larval state, once again when exposed to something like phazon that would give her more power to be reborn as Dark Samus again or another form of Dark Samus.
Multiplayer in Metroid is such a lingering opportunity. Echoes was simple but really fun, and Hunters expanded on it and few will disagree that it was a blast. But the problem is that there's people who will complain "Metroid shouldn't be anything but single player," because any historically single player franchise is ruined when multiplayer is added, apparently. I've seen some people act like Fallout 76 is the death knell of the franchise.

You raise an interesting point about new doors being opened for Dark Samus. I think it's evident that King K. Rool will make a return in the Donkey Kong Country series in the next installment due to his massive popularity getting him into Smash, so the same might happen for Dark Samus. Metroid Prime 2 and 3 weren't as popular as the first game, unfortunately, so it's possible that Tanabe might've gotten the impression that Dark Samus wasn't very popular. Hopefully he and other Metroid developers see that it's not the case now.

If they were to bring Dark Samus back, I'd want them to do it tastefully and purposefully, rather than it just being for fanservice. Several of Ridley's appearances fall into that category, unfortunately (though the one in Samus Returns is awesome, in my opinion). But where does one go after complete galactic conquest fails? Would she settle for less and just become a rival for Samus, or would she try and rule the galaxy once again? Hmm...
 

meleebrawler

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That's an interesting find. Good on Retro for implying a darker side to the Federation, then. I wish they could have become the stewards of the franchise, but it seems that most of the talent on those projects were tired of Metroid and wanted to move on to other things, either with Nintendo or with other developers.

Those rogue Chozo are way more interesting than anything that's been presented about the Federation across any of the games, though. Like I said, the dark side of the Federation is more or less a ripoff of the Weyland-Yutani/USM business in the Alien franchise. It's one of the oldest clichés in the book: business/government clones/does genetic experiments to create weapons. It's been done to death, and hardly ever done well. But those glimpses of the Chozo on SR-388? The scientists make Metroids, the Metroids go nuts, the soldiers show up and the scientists think they're saved, and the guy in charge was probably like "What the hell did you idiots do down here?" and orders his soldiers to smoke everyone and then said "Clean this **** up."

Up to then, the Chozo were just one of those super-wise and peaceful races. Now we know that there's apparently a merciless Chozo warlord in command of a legion of soldiers in Varia suits, and he's still out there somewhere. That's a way more interesting premise than the Federation just being stupid and repeatedly cloning things for dumb reasons.


Multiplayer in Metroid is such a lingering opportunity. Echoes was simple but really fun, and Hunters expanded on it and few will disagree that it was a blast. But the problem is that there's people who will complain "Metroid shouldn't be anything but single player," because any historically single player franchise is ruined when multiplayer is added, apparently. I've seen some people act like Fallout 76 is the death knell of the franchise.

You raise an interesting point about new doors being opened for Dark Samus. I think it's evident that King K. Rool will make a return in the Donkey Kong Country series in the next installment due to his massive popularity getting him into Smash, so the same might happen for Dark Samus. Metroid Prime 2 and 3 weren't as popular as the first game, unfortunately, so it's possible that Tanabe might've gotten the impression that Dark Samus wasn't very popular. Hopefully he and other Metroid developers see that it's not the case now.

If they were to bring Dark Samus back, I'd want them to do it tastefully and purposefully, rather than it just being for fanservice. Several of Ridley's appearances fall into that category, unfortunately (though the one in Samus Returns is awesome, in my opinion). But where does one go after complete galactic conquest fails? Would she settle for less and just become a rival for Samus, or would she try and rule the galaxy once again? Hmm...
That "cleanup operation" conducted by the Chozo warlord could have been a lot of things. Maybe it's like you say and it was done to erase any evidence of Chozo involvement (although I'd say they didn't do a very good job from what we can see), or perhaps he wanted to steal some of the Metroids for himself for whatever campaign he's planning on in the future.

If Dark Samus ever returns, chances are they'd play the amnesia card. Whether she becomes good, evil or neutral from there is up in the air, but we do know that without Phazon, she is both a significantly lesser threat and has only one defining feature left: her nature as a Metroid with human DNA incorporated. Maybe she'll have to drain bionergy like an ordinary Metroid now that she can't rely on Phazon as a food source. This would require her to live on secluded planets, at least for a time.
 

IronTed

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I disagree with the idea of a cleanup. Sure, in the obvious sense that s/he intended to massacre the SR388 colony, but there was zero effort to hide the metroids, X parasites, or even the first Metroid gate. We also know (granted this is the manga) that the Zebes Chozo were fully aware the former two at the very least. Literally everyone and their dog knew the basic story even prior to Samus Returns.

As said above, perhaps it's a punishment for incompetence, or maybe that faction is just rogue and didn't need justification. Of course it could be another reason that we lack evidence to prove at this point, we already know little about the SR388 Chozo as it is.
 

Porygon2

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If Dark Samus ever returns, chances are they'd play the amnesia card. Whether she becomes good, evil or neutral from there is up in the air, but we do know that without Phazon, she is both a significantly lesser threat and has only one defining feature left: her nature as a Metroid with human DNA incorporated. Maybe she'll have to drain bionergy like an ordinary Metroid now that she can't rely on Phazon as a food source. This would require her to live on secluded planets, at least for a time.
Anti-hero Dark Samus may be a huge cliche, but the idea does make me smile. Something about Samus having two mutant metroid buddies that have both attempted to essentially eat her at one point or another. God knows what the space pirates would think...

And of course there's the fact that Samus became part metroid herself since the events of Corruption, so the two are now even closer genetically, and might be able to communicate on some weird level. Seriously, incorporate some hidden chozo lore about some true/hidden nature of the metroids and there really are a few interesting directions this series could do, given the right writers.
 
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meleebrawler

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Anti-hero Dark Samus may be a huge cliche, but the idea does make me smile. Something about Samus having two mutant metroid buddies that have both attempted to essentially eat her at one point or another. God knows what the space pirates would think...

And of course there's the fact that Samus became part metroid herself since the events of Corruption, so the two are now even closer genetically, and might be able to communicate on some weird level. Seriously, incorporate some hidden chozo lore about some true/hidden nature of the metroids and there really are a few interesting directions this series could do, given the right writers.
Many people will dispute Samus being part Metroid after Fusion due to the developer's words of her DNA returning to normal after the end of the game. But they are just that, words, and until they materialize in an actual game they are prone to change. Like...



Even if she isn't though, there could be a potential plot from people merely thinking she has Metroid DNA.
 

Diem

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I disagree with the idea of a cleanup. Sure, in the obvious sense that s/he intended to massacre the SR388 colony, but there was zero effort to hide the metroids, X parasites, or even the first Metroid gate. We also know (granted this is the manga) that the Zebes Chozo were fully aware the former two at the very least. Literally everyone and their dog knew the basic story even prior to Samus Returns.

As said above, perhaps it's a punishment for incompetence, or maybe that faction is just rogue and didn't need justification. Of course it could be another reason that we lack evidence to prove at this point, we already know little about the SR388 Chozo as it is.
My "cleanup" statement was more of a joke and less about what actually transpired, since it's obvious that the Metroids are still there.

It is more of a punishment, that's the correct way to put it. Whatever the motivation or reasoning, though, it's intriguing as hell just from the presentation alone. Makes me hopeful for any future MercuryStream projects, since it seems like they might handle 2D Metroids while Kensuka Tanabe and his new team will handle the Prime series. They did a great job with Samus Returns, and apparently their Lords of Shadow work in Castlevania was pretty good as well, all things considered.

Anti-hero Dark Samus may be a huge cliche, but the idea does make me smile. Something about Samus having two mutant metroid buddies that have both attempted to essentially eat her at one point or another. God knows what the space pirates would think...

And of course there's the fact that Samus became part metroid herself since the events of Corruption, so the two are now even closer genetically, and might be able to communicate on some weird level. Seriously, incorporate some hidden chozo lore about some true/hidden nature of the metroids and there really are a few interesting directions this series could do, given the right writers.
It's a cliche that's fun and works when it's appropriate, and most other Nintendo games would do well with it. The thing is, most other Nintendo anti-heroes aren't responsible for thousands of casualties across multiple planets. Bowser just kidnaps Peach and causes havoc to others, King K. Rool and King Dedede steal food, but no one gets seriously hurt or killed. Wolf was just a mercenary and would later help Fox in Star Fox Assault. Ganondorf kills some people, but it's not very many, and he's contained to Hyrule and subdued before complete damage can be wrought, like ChronoBound mentioned.

Dark Samus:

1. Brainwashed an entire species to be her slaves
2. Led the assault on the G.F.S. Valhalla, killing everyone onboard and stealing the Aurora Unit
3. Instigated the invasion of Norion, resulting in many casualties
4. Personally infected Samus and the other hunters with Phazon, basically giving them a cancer that also lets her brainwash them
5. Sent Leviathans to three other planets to corrupt them, and planned on doing the same to the entire galaxy
6. Personally executes the other three hunters right in front of Samus to demoralize/taunt her

Like, Dark Samus is a war criminal. You can't really downgrade yourself to anti-hero after that. Even if there were some explanations for why Dark Samus is different and maybe doesn't have plans of galactic conquest in mind, it's not like that undoes everything that happened in Corruption.

It's one of the things that baffles me about Dragonball Z. Many of their villains are responsible for genocides, but then they're on the friendly team eventually. I guess it helps that you can conveniently wish everyone back to life and therefore negate any consequences for their actions, which apparently makes everything okay.
 

meleebrawler

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My "cleanup" statement was more of a joke and less about what actually transpired, since it's obvious that the Metroids are still there.

It is more of a punishment, that's the correct way to put it. Whatever the motivation or reasoning, though, it's intriguing as hell just from the presentation alone. Makes me hopeful for any future MercuryStream projects, since it seems like they might handle 2D Metroids while Kensuka Tanabe and his new team will handle the Prime series. They did a great job with Samus Returns, and apparently their Lords of Shadow work in Castlevania was pretty good as well, all things considered.


It's a cliche that's fun and works when it's appropriate, and most other Nintendo games would do well with it. The thing is, most other Nintendo anti-heroes aren't responsible for thousands of casualties across multiple planets. Bowser just kidnaps Peach and causes havoc to others, King K. Rool and King Dedede steal food, but no one gets seriously hurt or killed. Wolf was just a mercenary and would later help Fox in Star Fox Assault. Ganondorf kills some people, but it's not very many, and he's contained to Hyrule and subdued before complete damage can be wrought, like ChronoBound mentioned.

Dark Samus:

1. Brainwashed an entire species to be her slaves
2. Led the assault on the G.F.S. Valhalla, killing everyone onboard and stealing the Aurora Unit
3. Instigated the invasion of Norion, resulting in many casualties
4. Personally infected Samus and the other hunters with Phazon, basically giving them a cancer that also lets her brainwash them
5. Sent Leviathans to three other planets to corrupt them, and planned on doing the same to the entire galaxy
6. Personally executes the other three hunters right in front of Samus to demoralize/taunt her

Like, Dark Samus is a war criminal. You can't really downgrade yourself to anti-hero after that. Even if there were some explanations for why Dark Samus is different and maybe doesn't have plans of galactic conquest in mind, it's not like that undoes everything that happened in Corruption.

It's one of the things that baffles me about Dragonball Z. Many of their villains are responsible for genocides, but then they're on the friendly team eventually. I guess it helps that you can conveniently wish everyone back to life and therefore negate any consequences for their actions, which apparently makes everything okay.
Laws apply mainly to humans. Dark Samus barely qualifies as such despite eventually gaining human-level intelligence, what with being part Metroid and almost entirely composed of Phazon. In fact the Phazon alone muddies the intentions of Dark Samus as a whole. We know the stuff is sentient and seeks to spread. How much of Dark Samus's motives were driven by that of her Phazon corruption? You could possibly say anyone sufficiently powerful (and intelligent) enough to survive that level of corruption would do the same things in her position. Just look at Prime 3's terminal game over. The only thing about her character that was indisputably hers was her vendetta against Samus, for getting beaten by her so many times.

Obviously if anyone who knew her found out she was still alive (especially Samus), chances are their immediate reaction would be to try and hunt her down. And if she indeed has amnesia (the only way a turn is possible unless Phazon was that much of an influence), they'd make damn sure she knows what she did in her past life. Dark Samus would undoubtedly have a ton of work to do before others even begin to consider just leaving her be. Assuming she doesn't just stay hidden from all of them, which would probably make more sense if she resurrected somewhere in the middle of the timeline. The universe is incredibly vast after all, hence AU 242's mention of how even the monumental achievement of destroying Phaaze and all Phazon is "but a glimmer of hope in the vastness of space". Heck, doing so in the vicinity of where Phaaze used to be would already leave her light-years away from anyone who'd want to do her harm for her atrocities.
 
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Garo

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Maybe it's because of the reduced endlag, but using missiles in the air doesn't seem to stop your horizontal momentum as noticeably as in Smash 4. Should make them a better option when returning to the stage.

Didn't see any new noteworthy stuff, but one visual detail I appreciate yet haven't mentioned is the look of Dark Samus' Charge Shot. It has those organic looking tendrils that wriggle around.
 

Novaphyer

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Charged shots that hit an enemy appear to stun then for a short duration before launching them, so more hitstun?
Also, it looks like she can charge midair like regular Samus can.

I didn't play much Smash 4 Samus, so I might be rehashing old info, but at 1:43 Dark Samus's charge shot fizzles out.
 

NocturnalQuill

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Charged shots that hit an enemy appear to stun then for a short duration before launching them, so more hitstun?
Also, it looks like she can charge midair like regular Samus can.

I didn't play much Smash 4 Samus, so I might be rehashing old info, but at 1:43 Dark Samus's charge shot fizzles out.
A lot of her attacks have electrical properties, which means more hitstun. Her dash attack also launches at the same angle that Samus' used to.
 

ChronoBound

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Any eagle eyes able to discern what makes Dark Samus different from Samus aside from her animations from the video uploaded today?
 

Swamp Sensei

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She definitely looks much more floaty.
 

Diem

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Of course this footage comes out the one morning I have work and couldn't get a good look at it right away. Though it's not the best footage, because of how chaotic the match is with all the players and the small stage size, but it's something.

I swear Dark Samus looks floatier than Samus, but it could just be a placebo effect of the different animations that give that impression. Like, she could have the same exact stats as Samus, but because her animations are floatier, she feels lighter as a result, even if she actually isn't.

To me, it looks like she has more horizontal speed in the air and isn't as heavy, but we need some good Samus footage to compare to, and I can't find much. It'd make total sense that Dark Samus would have better air mobility than Samus, so I'd be willing to believe that this is the case, but most Samus footage I can find doesn't have her in the air for more than a second, so who knows.

When using missiles in the air, she definitely looks floatier. Just look at the way she uses them to cover her approach to the stage at 1:49. Samus might also have that change, but since not a lot of people fire missiles in the air with her (because it wasn't very good in Smash 4), footage is scarce. The one moment I found of it for Samus made it seem like she dropped faster and had less horizontal control, but that could just be different DI on the player's part.

It's all very ambiguous. Even the Smash blog post from a few days ago says "With floatier movement, it's a little different from Samus--and it doesn't roll when dodging or jumping," but does "floatier movement" refer to actual statistical movement attributes, or is it just a reference to her animations, which is also what the second part of the sentence is about? After all, the blog post is referring to her as an "it," so how much can we trust the author in the first place?

Ultimately, I don't think we can tell for sure if she's floatier until we have more definitive proof. Even if she is, it won't be a drastic difference, since the point of Echo Fighters is to be very similar to their counterparts so that they're easier to balance. If Dark Samus's weight and airspeed are remarkably different from Samus, that'd make balancing her more difficult. Not that I wouldn't welcome that difference, but it's best to assume the least amount of differences unless there's hard evidence.

I'm curious if her Down-B is going to work a little differently, though. The amount of usage it got in this match is out of the ordinary compared to regular Samus play. Either the player was just spamming it a lot for no reason, or it might have some more advantageous properties compared to Samus's version. Perhaps it has more overall mobility, making it easier to spam bombs everywhere and reduce your size so you're safe.

God, I wish I could just get my hands on the game so I could test this out and get some hard answers.

What we do know for sure is that some of her attacks are electric in property as opposed to fire like with Samus's (as pointed out by NocturnalQuill NocturnalQuill ), and I guess the angle of her dash attack is more like Samus's dash attack from Smash 4, which is really good. These combined with the way she can fire missles in the air gives me the impression that Dark Samus is going to be a more aggressive character that can overwhelm opponents with projectiles and have good combo potential at close range. That's very, very promising, and true to her boss fight gameplay where she's very aggressive and overwhelms you with all kinds of different attacks.

Which means that Samus might be more of a zoning character meant to keep enemies away, which would explain her changed dash attack.

I love her dash animation. I remember arguments a month or two ago about if Dark Samus was an Echo Fighter of Samus, then people assumed she'd have to share the same animations, so she'd be stuck with Samus's heavy sprint animation, but I said that at the very least they could make her float for her dash, since that already exists with Cloud and Mewtwo and wouldn't be too much work. And that's exactly what we got, and it looks totally perfect. The super casual dash attack animation is just icing on the cake.

Of course, not only is her dash animation amazing, all her animations are amazing. It's been a happy time hearing a lot of people who were either pessimistic about her being an Echo Fighter before because it'd mean she wouldn't be totally unique or the people who have no clue about the character in general now being excited for her just because of the amazing animation work. I was worried that Dark Pit had poisoned the well too much on Echo Fighters that are also "Dark" versions, since Dark Pit is just alt-colored Pit with an attitude, but Sakurai and team have definitely differentiated Dark Samus enough that even people who have never really seen the character before are on board.

My only nitpicks would have to be that her effects aren't "Phazony" enough. Her charge beam should be a bright blue, not black/dark blue, as well as most of her other effects. I guess because Samus's charge beam is already blue, they needed to differentiate it, and they weren't going to change Samus's traditional aesthetics just for an Echo Fighter. Also, her stage entrance shouldn't be her coming from a dark portal (she's not an Ing, she can't create dark portals like that), but instead it should've been her materializing out of Phazon particles like she does in Metroid Prime 2.

But it all still looks cool and unique (e.g. the little tendril effects that Garo Garo pointed out), so I'm not going to raise any complaints. Again, I would've settled for just an alt costume for Samus if it was the difference between something or nothing. She already has more effort put into her than seemingly any other Echo Fighter, so I'm very appreciative of that.

We can always hope that she'll reappear in a future game and be de-cloned, but I don't see that happening. Sakurai said that this game would either be Ultimate with all the characters, or they'd cut 2/3 of the characters and basically reboot the series. So the next game we're going to get is going to trim a lot of the characters that aren't essential. Ridley will probably still be in, because he's much more relevant and has such a long history, but Dark Samus will probably be seen as excessive and not return. But you know what, she's in Ultimate, which will be the last of the classic Smash titles, so that's all that matters to me. She managed to squeeze in to the most tightly-packed game in the series, likely the most tightly-packed one that there ever will be, so even if this is her only appearance, it's the one I would've wanted.

The biggest concern, though, is whether or not her laugh is part of any of her taunts. If not, we're gonna need to lobby hard to make that change in a future update. It can happen. It needs to happen.
 
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Over9000BPM

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Of course this footage comes out the one morning I have work and couldn't get a good look at it right away. Though it's not the best footage, because of how chaotic the match is with all the players and the small stage size, but it's something.

I swear Dark Samus looks floatier than Samus, but it could just be a placebo effect of the different animations that give that impression. Like, she could have the same exact stats as Samus, but because her animations are floatier, she feels lighter as a result, even if she actually isn't.

To me, it looks like she has more horizontal speed in the air and isn't as heavy, but we need some good Samus footage to compare to, and I can't find much. It'd make total sense that Dark Samus would have better air mobility than Samus, so I'd be willing to believe that this is the case, but most Samus footage I can find doesn't have her in the air for more than a second, so who knows.

When using missiles in the air, she definitely looks floatier. Just look at the way she uses them to cover her approach to the stage at 1:49. Samus might also have that change, but since not a lot of people fire missiles in the air with her (because it wasn't very good in Smash 4), footage is scarce. The one moment I found of it for Samus made it seem like she dropped faster and had less horizontal control, but that could just be different DI on the player's part.

It's all very ambiguous. Even the Smash blog post from a few days ago says "With floatier movement, it's a little different from Samus--and it doesn't roll when dodging or jumping," but does "floatier movement" refer to actual statistical movement attributes, or is it just a reference to her animations, which is also what the second part of the sentence is about? After all, the blog post is referring to her as an "it," so how much can we trust the author in the first place?

Ultimately, I don't think we can tell for sure if she's floatier until we have more definitive proof. Even if she is, it won't be a drastic difference, since the point of Echo Fighters is to be very similar to their counterparts so that they're easier to balance. If Dark Samus's weight and airspeed are remarkably different from Samus, that'd make balancing her more difficult. Not that I wouldn't welcome that difference, but it's best to assume the least amount of differences unless there's hard evidence.

I'm curious if her Down-B is going to work a little differently, though. The amount of usage it got in this match is out of the ordinary compared to regular Samus play. Either the player was just spamming it a lot for no reason, or it might have some more advantageous properties compared to Samus's version. Perhaps it has more overall mobility, making it easier to spam bombs everywhere and reduce your size so you're safe.

God, I wish I could just get my hands on the game so I could test this out and get some hard answers.

What we do know for sure is that some of her attacks are electric in property as opposed to fire like with Samus's (as pointed out by NocturnalQuill NocturnalQuill ), and I guess the angle of her dash attack is more like Samus's dash attack from Smash 4, which is really good. These combined with the way she can fire missles in the air gives me the impression that Dark Samus is going to be a more aggressive character that can overwhelm opponents with projectiles and have good combo potential at close range. That's very, very promising, and true to her boss fight gameplay where she's very aggressive and overwhelms you with all kinds of different attacks.

Which means that Samus might be more of a zoning character meant to keep enemies away, which would explain her changed dash attack.

I love her dash animation. I remember arguments a month or two ago about if Dark Samus was an Echo Fighter of Samus, then people assumed she'd have to share the same animations, so she'd be stuck with Samus's heavy sprint animation, but I said that at the very least they could make her float for her dash, since that already exists with Cloud and Mewtwo and wouldn't be too much work. And that's exactly what we got, and it looks totally perfect. The super casual dash attack animation is just icing on the cake.

Of course, not only is her dash animation amazing, all her animations are amazing. It's been a happy time hearing a lot of people who were either pessimistic about her being an Echo Fighter before because it'd mean she wouldn't be totally unique or the people who have no clue about the character in general now being excited for her just because of the amazing animation work. I was worried that Dark Pit had poisoned the well too much on Echo Fighters that are also "Dark" versions, since Dark Pit is just alt-colored Pit with an attitude, but Sakurai and team have definitely differentiated Dark Samus enough that even people who have never really seen the character before are on board.

My only nitpicks would have to be that her effects aren't "Phazony" enough. Her charge beam should be a bright blue, not black/dark blue, as well as most of her other effects. I guess because Samus's charge beam is already blue, they needed to differentiate it, and they weren't going to change Samus's traditional aesthetics just for an Echo Fighter. Also, her stage entrance shouldn't be her coming from a dark portal (she's not an Ing, she can't create dark portals like that), but instead it should've been her materializing out of Phazon particles like she does in Metroid Prime 2.

But it all still looks cool and unique (e.g. the little tendril effects that Garo Garo pointed out), so I'm not going to raise any complaints. Again, I would've settled for just an alt costume for Samus if it was the difference between something or nothing. She already has more effort put into her than seemingly any other Echo Fighter, so I'm very appreciative of that.

We can always hope that she'll reappear in a future game and be de-cloned, but I don't see that happening. Sakurai said that this game would either be Ultimate with all the characters, or they'd cut 2/3 of the characters and basically reboot the series. So the next game we're going to get is going to trim a lot of the characters that aren't essential. Ridley will probably still be in, because he's much more relevant and has such a long history, but Dark Samus will probably be seen as excessive and not return. But you know what, she's in Ultimate, which will be the last of the classic Smash titles, so that's all that matters to me. She managed to squeeze in to the most tightly-packed game in the series, likely the most tightly-packed one that there ever will be, so even if this is her only appearance, it's the one I would've wanted.

The biggest concern, though, is whether or not her laugh is part of any of her taunts. If not, we're gonna need to lobby hard to make that change in a future update. It can happen. It needs to happen.
How does one “lobby hard to make that change”? I’m so full of impotent rage over how bad Samus and Zero Suit Samus look in Ultimate right now?! Why isn’t anyone else bothered by this?! :-(
 

Diem

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How does one “lobby hard to make that change”? I’m so full of impotent rage over how bad Samus and Zero Suit Samus look in Ultimate right now?! Why isn’t anyone else bothered by this?! :-(
I don't know for sure. I'm only half-serious, since I don't think there's going to be a legion of Dark Samus players pounding at the gates, nor should people be obnoxious about anything like that (~cough~ Waluigi memers ~cough~). The only reason I consider it possible to change is because it's such a small bit of work (changing/adding a sound effect), rather than anything that requires any significant planning or consideration.

Full character appearances, like for Samus and ZSS, are less likely to change. I have hope that alt costumes will be added as DLC, given how many new and old characters are getting alt costumes in this game, but there's no guarantee.

Either way, both problems are easily remedied by mods. It's just that mods can only be used locally and with a large degree of setup, so it'd be nicer if they were in the game proper.
 

meleebrawler

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Maybe it's because of the reduced endlag, but using missiles in the air doesn't seem to stop your horizontal momentum as noticeably as in Smash 4. Should make them a better option when returning to the stage.

Didn't see any new noteworthy stuff, but one visual detail I appreciate yet haven't mentioned is the look of Dark Samus' Charge Shot. It has those organic looking tendrils that wriggle around.
Can you also say "short hop retreating/advancing missiles"?

You can see tendrils on Dark Samus's arm cannon any time she focuses Phazon through it. Given the animation of her fsmash, it may be that it lacks a sweetspot and sourspot like Samus's and just does consistent damage on the whole cannon.

Every time I see Dark Samus midair jump, it looks like she's doing a dair.
 

Over9000BPM

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I don't know for sure. I'm only half-serious, since I don't think there's going to be a legion of Dark Samus players pounding at the gates, nor should people be obnoxious about anything like that (~cough~ Waluigi memers ~cough~). The only reason I consider it possible to change is because it's such a small bit of work (changing/adding a sound effect), rather than anything that requires any significant planning or consideration.

Full character appearances, like for Samus and ZSS, are less likely to change. I have hope that alt costumes will be added as DLC, given how many new and old characters are getting alt costumes in this game, but there's no guarantee.

Either way, both problems are easily remedied by mods. It's just that mods can only be used locally and with a large degree of setup, so it'd be nicer if they were in the game proper.
Well locally wouldn’t be a problem, I don’t like playing these sorts of games online. It’d be the setup part. I’m clueless techwise.

I just want either the Sm4sh 4 ZSS back, or both forms updated to their Metroid 2 remake designs.

It’s tearing me apart, just this whole situation. I love this series, and my main(s?) are gonna look like crap.

And with Ridley and a surprisingly well executed Dark Samus around too. I’ve bought it up on a few different platforms, and nobody else seems to care. Or they actually like the bland, shapeless abomination that is the “Ultimate” ZSS. Thanks for listening, that genuinely helps me :-)
 

Diem

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Maybe it's a reference to the Ings themselves, and she's using one to the the battlefield?
It is probably a reference to Metroid Prime 2 in some capacity, but a more appropriate reference would be materializing out of Phazon, which she does several times in the game, but not once does she come out of a dark portal. She goes into one at the start of the game, but never again do we see her have any association with portals.

Back when I first played Metroid Prime 2, I hadn't even gotten to Flaahgra in the first game, let alone see the ending or the 100% ending, so I had no idea what Dark Samus was, and thought that she was created when Samus came to Aether as a form of Ing. The portal entrance in this game only serves to reinforce that kind of misconception for people who don't know the character, making them think that she's just some dark clone of Samus when she's a much more unique entity.

Oh well, at least the portal animation still looks cool. And of all the things to get wrong, that's one of the least problematic.

Can you also say "short hop retreating/advancing missiles"?

You can see tendrils on Dark Samus's arm cannon any time she focuses Phazon through it. Given the animation of her fsmash, it may be that it lacks a sweetspot and sourspot like Samus's and just does consistent damage on the whole cannon.

Every time I see Dark Samus midair jump, it looks like she's doing a dair.
I hadn't even noticed that effect on the arm cannon. That's really awesome, nice catch. And your sweetspot/sourspot theory might be possible, since Lucina and Marth are that way. I wonder how that would work in practice.

The midair jump animation throws me off, too. I keep thinking it's some kind of attack but it's just a jump. I'd like to see it more clearly in a less hectic game, to see whether or not it's going to be confusing in practice.

Well locally wouldn’t be a problem, I don’t like playing these sorts of games online. It’d be the setup part. I’m clueless techwise.

I just want either the Sm4sh 4 ZSS back, or both forms updated to their Metroid 2 remake designs.

It’s tearing me apart, just this whole situation. I love this series, and my main(s?) are gonna look like crap.

And with Ridley and a surprisingly well executed Dark Samus around too. I’ve bought it up on a few different platforms, and nobody else seems to care. Or they actually like the bland, shapeless abomination that is the “Ultimate” ZSS. Thanks for listening, that genuinely helps me :-)
There were plenty of tutorials on how to set up mods on Wii U. It was a bit complicated, but I imagine Switch will be easier for a variety of reasons.

What's wrong with ZSS in this game? Most people seem to agree that she has more muscular definition in this game, which is a good change, because it makes her look more athletic, which a warrior of her caliber would reasonably look like. The reduced bust size is also more realistic to what a suit like that would look like, as opposed to the previous two iterations that looked less like a bodysuit and more like some kind of body mold.
 

Over9000BPM

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It is probably a reference to Metroid Prime 2 in some capacity, but a more appropriate reference would be materializing out of Phazon, which she does several times in the game, but not once does she come out of a dark portal. She goes into one at the start of the game, but never again do we see her have any association with portals.

Back when I first played Metroid Prime 2, I hadn't even gotten to Flaahgra in the first game, let alone see the ending or the 100% ending, so I had no idea what Dark Samus was, and thought that she was created when Samus came to Aether as a form of Ing. The portal entrance in this game only serves to reinforce that kind of misconception for people who don't know the character, making them think that she's just some dark clone of Samus when she's a much more unique entity.

Oh well, at least the portal animation still looks cool. And of all the things to get wrong, that's one of the least problematic.


I hadn't even noticed that effect on the arm cannon. That's really awesome, nice catch. And your sweetspot/sourspot theory might be possible, since Lucina and Marth are that way. I wonder how that would work in practice.

The midair jump animation throws me off, too. I keep thinking it's some kind of attack but it's just a jump. I'd like to see it more clearly in a less hectic game, to see whether or not it's going to be confusing in practice.


There were plenty of tutorials on how to set up mods on Wii U. It was a bit complicated, but I imagine Switch will be easier for a variety of reasons.

What's wrong with ZSS in this game? Most people seem to agree that she has more muscular definition in this game, which is a good change, because it makes her look more athletic, which a warrior of her caliber would reasonably look like. The reduced bust size is also more realistic to what a suit like that would look like, as opposed to the previous two iterations that looked less like a bodysuit and more like some kind of body mold.
She’s got slightly more musculature, but because she’s still got the relatively slight Other M frame, she just looks kinda scrawny.

People keep using that word, “realistic”. Even by Sci-fi standards, Metroid is an unrealistic series. Very, VERY far towards the soft end of the Mohs scale.

Like in our own universe, or indeed 95% of other scifi universes, the great Dark Samus would be nothing but an inert, lifeless mass of tumours, with an arm cannon sticking out of it.

So when people decry Samus having a large bust as “unrealistic”, it rings hollow to me.

The Zero Suit is literally one of a kind, made only for Samus, as a second skin to interface with her power suit. So actually, it makes a hell of a lot more sense for it to be perfectly molded to her body, especially compared to a lot of stuff that goes on in the Metroid universe.
 
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Aetheri

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If Dark Samus has no sweetspots on her attacks compared to Samus, that could make her a bit more threatening since Samus's fsmash and ftilt are very unreliable at times since they're best used with good spacing. Those without the need to space will give her more of an opportunity to both kill and 'get off me' opponents more effictiently.

Also while reviewing the video, I'm not sure if this is also a change that Samus has in Ultimate as well, but it seems like Dark Samus was able to lay her bombs one after another a lot quicker, at least compared to Smash 4 Samus where there was a bit more of a delay.

Uncharged beam comboed Chrom into ftilt at mid percent...? Maybe?

Never saw her jab at all so can't compare that at all...
 

NocturnalQuill

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If Dark Samus has no sweetspots on her attacks compared to Samus, that could make her a bit more threatening since Samus's fsmash and ftilt are very unreliable at times since they're best used with good spacing. Those without the need to space will give her more of an opportunity to both kill and 'get off me' opponents more effictiently.

Also while reviewing the video, I'm not sure if this is also a change that Samus has in Ultimate as well, but it seems like Dark Samus was able to lay her bombs one after another a lot quicker, at least compared to Smash 4 Samus where there was a bit more of a delay.

Uncharged beam comboed Chrom into ftilt at mid percent...? Maybe?

Never saw her jab at all so can't compare that at all...
Good point. Different/removed sweet spots have been a common trend among echo fighters. I didn't think to even look for that in the footage.
 
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meleebrawler

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About the portal thing, you could say she just had a Leviathan make one for her. And the reason it's blue is because she's warping directly from Phaaze.

Does her down tilt seem... slower? Maybe it packs a bigger punch or hitbox if it's the case.

The airspeed... both of them seem a lot faster and more nimble in the air than Sm4sh Samus. Samus also seems to retain more momentum in the air using missiles.

Dark Samus might have a lower launch angle on her fair. Or it's just DI.

Here's a good Samus video to compare with:


I'm not sure if they changed the sweetspot mechanics for Samus, but it certainly burned Pika from a closer range than it would have in Smash 4.
 
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