Social Disciples of Dark Samus

[Diem]

Isabelle has just been announced to be a unique fighter while Dark Samus is just... Samus. Its assist trophy was more faithful to its character than it is now. Good work Sakurai

I have mixed feelings about Isabelle.

On the one hand, there's several characters I'd rather have a unique moveset than her. Her being in the game like this means that there's probably only two more newcomers after this, but there's at least three major requests that people want. I was convinced that characters like this wouldn't happen, because all the other characters are appealing to hardcore players who have very specific requests, as opposed to casual audiences who would want characters like Isabelle. But now that's out the window. Another Pokémon character now seems a lot more likely.

On the other hand, I love Animal Crossing. It's always been one of my favorite franchises. But I hate Villager's moveset. It's not fun to me. So Isabelle getting a different moveset means I can enjoy a character from one of my favorite franchises. Her moveset looks much more fun and straightforward than Villager's wonky moveset.

As for Dark Samus, well, it is kind of vexing that she doesn't get a unique moveset, but Isabelle does. However, from what I've been able to gather, neither Metroid Prime 2 or 3 managed to sell more than 2 million units individually. Animal Crossing: New Leaf has sold almost 12 million units. So that's about 3-4 times as much popularity as both Metroid Prime 2 and 3 combined. And Isabelle is more recent; New Leaf came out in 2012, and has reappeared in basically every Animal Crossing installment since. She was even a racer in Mario Kart 8.

She's popular in the same way that Ashley from WarioWare is popular: she's sort of a breakout character that's one of the main faces of the series. Except that Isabelle is way more prominent and popular than Ashley is. And we all saw how many people wanted Ashley, so there's probably even more people pleased with Isabelle. Maybe. I don't know how much the die-hard Animal Crossing and Smash fanbases overlap.

So perspective is key. Almost everyone knows who Isabelle is. There's not nearly as many people who know who Dark Samus is outside of Smash, and of the remaining demographic that does know, not many of them truly care. Countless people have been demanding Ridley, but almost no one has been demanding Dark Samus.

Like Aetheri and ChronoBound have said, Dark Samus is lucky to be in at all. Especially since we got Ridley, too. Even when Samus's Dark Samus alt color was missing, and a bunch of people thought she was basically confirmed, I still doubted, because Dark Samus just isn't a very popular character.

To me, what matters most is that Dark Samus is officially in the game. That means modeled, animated, and implemented. Because from there, there's always the hope that modders can go in and give her a more unique moveset, like what Project M did. It's way harder to do that if there isn't a character to work from, and not too many modders would care enough about Dark Samus to put the effort into making her from scratch. Hell, it took until last month for someone to FINALLY make a Dark Samus skin for Samus in Smash 4. But if the character is actually in the game, then that's the hardest part of the job already taken care of.

And, of course, the character we got, unique moveset or no, is modeled and animated amazingly. Dark Samus is honestly one of the aesthetically best-looking characters in the entire game, and that's crazy.

As opposed to the Dark Samus mods for Brawl that I've seen, which look super ugly and unpolished compared to the rest of the cast.

 

[Garo]

To me Isabelle is the most whatever newcomer so far, but I'm not mad she got a "better treatment" than Dark Samus. Fact is she's a more popular character from a more popular franchise. I'd also argue that were she an echo, she'd be somewhat misrepresented. Some of Villager's moves have this sort of sinister edge to them, like burying the opponent into the ground, hitting them with an axe or felling a tree on them. Those moves IMO wouldn't fit Isabelle's more timid and good-hearted nature. Meanwhile there's really nothing preventing Dark Samus from using all of Samus' moves even though she has her own set of skills.

 

[meleebrawler]

There's honestly not many unique things you can take from Dark Samus's appearances that would work well in Smash. At best she would have had a handful of unique moves.

 

[Turnips and Daisies.]

There's honestly not many unique things you can take from Dark Samus's appearances that would work well in Smash. At best she would have had a handful of unique moves.

You can edit stats to make her actually floatier etc.

 

[meleebrawler]

Why exactly do we want Dark Samus to be actually floatier so bad? Is it just difference for difference's sake, because clearly anything that differs from the irredeemable Samus is an improvement?

 

[Diem]

There's honestly not many unique things you can take from Dark Samus's appearances that would work well in Smash. At best she would have had a handful of unique moves.

Actually, the moveset discussion got me thinking, and there are actually some simple ways to give Dark Samus a unique moveset, using concepts already sort of used by other fighters.

So here's my brief treatise on what her moveset could be, along with some visual aids. Most moves are borrowed from her appearance as an Assist Trophy in the previous game, but they would obviously have to be toned down in order to be balanced for a playable character. Modders, please take note.

Neutral-B:

The scattershot attack, obviously. Charging it increases its range and damage, but it can't go nearly as far as Samus's Charge Shot, though the cone of fire is wider than the Charge Shot. This makes it a good zoning tool, but it can only be used once before it has to be charged again for maximum effectiveness. Maybe allow it to be angled a bit during fire, to represent how Dark Samus sweeps the area with it in her boss fights.

Up-B:

This one was the trickiest one to think of, but I really liked the idea of it once I thought it out. It should be based on her ground slam attack she does in both of her appearances, and work a little like Cloud's Up-B in that you press it once to go up, and you can press it a second time to come back down.

On the way back down, it can be angled up to 45 degrees. This makes it a little more versatile and unique, but not something so drastically different that there would be major concerns about its balance. In particular, the delay between when the move reaches its maximum height and when you can use the move to go downwards can be tweaked to help balance it, as well as the endlag after it lands.

Side-B:

The homing orb attack she uses as an assist trophy. Just tapping the move quickly only puts out one orb. Charging it generates three orbs, which home in one after the other. This makes it a good pressuring tool, especially for edgeguarding. It also makes it a nice contrast from Samus's missiles, which would have longer range and do more damage.

Down-B:

This one's the simplest of them all. It's just her "ground tentacle move" that Dark Samus has in all her appearances, though without tentacles in MP2. This is less of an offensive move, though. In the games, it's primarily used to deflect projectiles. So, in Smash, it should reflect projectiles, while also dealing a bit of damage and knockback up close. It'd be functionally equivalent to Pit's Down-B, protecting on both sides, but leaving the character exposed from the top.

And that's really all the character needs. All the other attacks could stay the same. Thus, she'd be a semi-clone, but a faithful one. All it would take is for someone to mod them into the game somehow. Hopefully Ultimate is easier to work with than Smash 4 was.

Why exactly do we want Dark Samus to be actually floatier so bad? Is it just difference for difference's sake, because clearly anything that differs from the irredeemable Samus is an improvement?

It's not due to a dislike of Samus. It's because, as always, people want a unique moveset. Every character deserves their own moveset, but due to the practicality of making so many fighters, sometimes the moveset has to be compromised in order for them to make it into the game at all. Dark Samus is already extremely lucky to be in the game, so I'm fine with that compromise, but she could definitely have a unique moveset to not only make her an independent fighter in her own right, but also show people that she isn't truly a carbon-copy of Samus, as her name and current moveset will undoubtedly lead unfamiliar people to believe.

Making her floatier would be a nice consolation for the lack of a moveset. It'd change how she plays and make the two characters more distinct. As I've pointed out before and above, I think making Samus more of a longer-ranged zoner and making Dark Samus more aggressive would be a faithful way to distinguish the characters and make each one play pretty differently, rather than have Dark Samus just be an alt costume with minor differences.

 

[ChronoBound]

I have mixed feelings about Isabelle.

On the one hand, there's several characters I'd rather have a unique moveset than her. Her being in the game like this means that there's probably only two more newcomers after this, but there's at least three major requests that people want. I was convinced that characters like this wouldn't happen, because all the other characters are appealing to hardcore players who have very specific requests, as opposed to casual audiences who would want characters like Isabelle. But now that's out the window. Another Pokémon character now seems a lot more likely.

On the other hand, I love Animal Crossing. It's always been one of my favorite franchises. But I hate Villager's moveset. It's not fun to me. So Isabelle getting a different moveset means I can enjoy a character from one of my favorite franchises. Her moveset looks much more fun and straightforward than Villager's wonky moveset.

As for Dark Samus, well, it is kind of vexing that she doesn't get a unique moveset, but Isabelle does. However, from what I've been able to gather, neither Metroid Prime 2 or 3 managed to sell more than 2 million units individually. Animal Crossing: New Leaf has sold almost 12 million units. So that's about 3-4 times as much popularity as both Metroid Prime 2 and 3 combined. And Isabelle is more recent; New Leaf came out in 2012, and has reappeared in basically every Animal Crossing installment since. She was even a racer in Mario Kart 8.

She's popular in the same way that Ashley from WarioWare is popular: she's sort of a breakout character that's one of the main faces of the series. Except that Isabelle is way more prominent and popular than Ashley is. And we all saw how many people wanted Ashley, so there's probably even more people pleased with Isabelle. Maybe. I don't know how much the die-hard Animal Crossing and Smash fanbases overlap.

So perspective is key. Almost everyone knows who Isabelle is. There's not nearly as many people who know who Dark Samus is outside of Smash, and of the remaining demographic that does know, not many of them truly care. Countless people have been demanding Ridley, but almost no one has been demanding Dark Samus.

Like Aetheri and ChronoBound have said, Dark Samus is lucky to be in at all. Especially since we got Ridley, too. Even when Samus's Dark Samus alt color was missing, and a bunch of people thought she was basically confirmed, I still doubted, because Dark Samus just isn't a very popular character.

To me, what matters most is that Dark Samus is officially in the game. That means modeled, animated, and implemented. Because from there, there's always the hope that modders can go in and give her a more unique moveset, like what Project M did. It's way harder to do that if there isn't a character to work from, and not too many modders would care enough about Dark Samus to put the effort into making her from scratch. Hell, it took until last month for someone to FINALLY make a Dark Samus skin for Samus in Smash 4. But if the character is actually in the game, then that's the hardest part of the job already taken care of.

And, of course, the character we got, unique moveset or no, is modeled and animated amazingly. Dark Samus is honestly one of the aesthetically best-looking characters in the entire game, and that's crazy.

As opposed to the Dark Samus mods for Brawl that I've seen, which look super ugly and unpolished compared to the rest of the cast.

There is a lot to be said from this detailed post. As for you saying that there are only two more fighters, I strongly feel the same (I believe the last two are going to be Incineroar and Ken). DLC is going to be very interesting, and likely more expansive than it was for Smash 4.

As with yourself, the existence of Isabelle as a semi-clone was surprising to me because we have not have a semi-clone newcomer since 2008. It bears good news for someone like Dixie Kong, whom while she has a lot of physiological similarities to Diddy Kong, a lot of her abilities and what she is known for are quite different (namely her pretensile hair and ability to utilize flight/gliding from it). That being said, I am personally pessimistic on Dixie Kong's prospects (I only expect two more characters for the base roster, and competition for DLC slots will be extremely fierce).

Your analogy of Isabelle to Ashley is on-point, but Isabelle finds a lot more of her popularity outside of those who write about Smash Bros. online. She was chosen because she is such an incredible icon, probably the biggest character to emerge from an established franchise this decade (Bandanna Dee, while a very old character in actuality, has experienced a similar rise in promotion of the course of this decade too).

Isabelle compared to the echoes announced for this game (Daisy, Richter, Chrom, and of course Dark Samus) is a far, far bigger name for her own franchise, and could at the present be by many to be "the face" of Animal Crossing. The others are major or very notable characters in their own series, but Isabelle is the only one that has been elevated to becoming a critical character.

You absolutely possess the right attitude about Dark Samus getting in. There is probably only one more echo fighter left to be announced (Ken), and of the five, Dark Samus managed to be one of them. This is absolutely incredible. Assuming Ken is all that is left, she managed to beat out the likes of Shadow, Octoling, Impa, Funky Kong, and possibly Dixie Kong (Dixie could technically work as an echo if they gave her a different recovery).

To me Isabelle is the most whatever newcomer so far, but I'm not mad she got a "better treatment" than Dark Samus. Fact is she's a more popular character from a more popular franchise. I'd also argue that were she an echo, she'd be somewhat misrepresented. Some of Villager's moves have this sort of sinister edge to them, like burying the opponent into the ground, hitting them with an axe or felling a tree on them. Those moves IMO wouldn't fit Isabelle's more timid and good-hearted nature. Meanwhile there's really nothing preventing Dark Samus from using all of Samus' moves even though she has her own set of skills.

This is a good point. A lot of Villager's moveset was not really appropriate for someone like Isabelle. This was likely another reason why Isabelle was developed into a semi-clone and not just an echo fighter. Contrast that with Daisy, Richter, Dark Samus, and Chrom where a lot of their character is captured through their unique animations (idle stances, how they move, their taunts), but their actual attacks are not necessarily out of character (even though Dark Samus could definitely be an entirely unique fighter).

Isabelle has just been announced to be a unique fighter while Dark Samus is just... Samus. Its assist trophy was more faithful to its character than it is now. Good work Sakurai

Dark Samus's animations allow the character to be true to herself without having to devote additional time and resources to balancing yet another character on the roster. Others have said how cool Dark Samus seems despite her being simply an echo fighter.

To be fair....Isabelle is much more popular and a lot more relevant. As well as from a series that is a lot more popular than Metroid.

Dark Samus is honestly lucky to be playable at all...

Though I do have to mention she's not that unique as she's clearly a semi-clone of Villager...

You have the right attitude. Dark Samus more or less won the lottery as far as getting into Smash Bros. is concerned.

 

[Metallinatus]

I don't think Isabelle entering as a new character instead of Dark Samus is justifiable by popularity at all.... everybody is forgetting that ever since Melee, the series has been putting time and resources in obscure characters nonstop. Ice Climbers? Mr. Game & Watch? Marth and Roy didn't even have a game outside of Japan! Then that Pit guy came by? ROB? Wtf is a ROB? Now we have that Richer, R-Ricther, Ri─ where the heck is Alucard???!!11
Popularity is no excuse. Either way I am not going to complain, it just hurt a little bit to see they putting more time and resources into a clear Villager-like character than in a completely original character.

 

[meleebrawler]

Actually, the moveset discussion got me thinking, and there are actually some simple ways to give Dark Samus a unique moveset, using concepts already sort of used by other fighters.

So here's my brief treatise on what her moveset could be, along with some visual aids. Most moves are borrowed from her appearance as an Assist Trophy in the previous game, but they would obviously have to be toned down in order to be balanced for a playable character. Modders, please take note.

Neutral-B:

The scattershot attack, obviously. Charging it increases its range and damage, but it can't go nearly as far as Samus's Charge Shot, though the cone of fire is wider than the Charge Shot. This makes it a good zoning tool, but it can only be used once before it has to be charged again for maximum effectiveness. Maybe allow it to be angled a bit during fire, to represent how Dark Samus sweeps the area with it in her boss fights.

Up-B:

This one was the trickiest one to think of, but I really liked the idea of it once I thought it out. It should be based on her ground slam attack she does in both of her appearances, and work a little like Cloud's Up-B in that you press it once to go up, and you can press it a second time to come back down.

On the way back down, it can be angled up to 45 degrees. This makes it a little more versatile and unique, but not something so drastically different that there would be major concerns about its balance. In particular, the delay between when the move reaches its maximum height and when you can use the move to go downwards can be tweaked to help balance it, as well as the endlag after it lands.

Side-B:

The homing orb attack she uses as an assist trophy. Just tapping the move quickly only puts out one orb. Charging it generates three orbs, which home in one after the other. This makes it a good pressuring tool, especially for edgeguarding. It also makes it a nice contrast from Samus's missiles, which would have longer range and do more damage.

Down-B:

This one's the simplest of them all. It's just her "ground tentacle move" that Dark Samus has in all her appearances, though without tentacles in MP2. This is less of an offensive move, though. In the games, it's primarily used to deflect projectiles. So, in Smash, it should reflect projectiles, while also dealing a bit of damage and knockback up close. It'd be functionally equivalent to Pit's Down-B, protecting on both sides, but leaving the character exposed from the top.

And that's really all the character needs. All the other attacks could stay the same. Thus, she'd be a semi-clone, but a faithful one. All it would take is for someone to mod them into the game somehow. Hopefully Ultimate is easier to work with than Smash 4 was.


It's not due to a dislike of Samus. It's because, as always, people want a unique moveset. Every character deserves their own moveset, but due to the practicality of making so many fighters, sometimes the moveset has to be compromised in order for them to make it into the game at all. Dark Samus is already extremely lucky to be in the game, so I'm fine with that compromise, but she could definitely have a unique moveset to not only make her an independent fighter in her own right, but also show people that she isn't truly a carbon-copy of Samus, as her name and current moveset will undoubtedly lead unfamiliar people to believe.

Making her floatier would be a nice consolation for the lack of a moveset. It'd change how she plays and make the two characters more distinct. As I've pointed out before and above, I think making Samus more of a longer-ranged zoner and making Dark Samus more aggressive would be a faithful way to distinguish the characters and make each one play pretty differently, rather than have Dark Samus just be an alt costume with minor differences.

There's one glaring issue with the moveset I notice here, and that's a lack of good KO options. How will she get them without edgeguards, bair fishing or smash reads/punishes? The Charge Shot as it is is too integral unless you overhaul her normals too.

 

[Diem]

There is a lot to be said from this detailed post. As for you saying that there are only two more fighters, I strongly feel the same (I believe the last two are going to be Incineroar and Ken). DLC is going to be very interesting, and likely more expansive than it was for Smash 4.

As with yourself, the existence of Isabelle as a semi-clone was surprising to me because we have not have a semi-clone newcomer since 2008. It bears good news for someone like Dixie Kong, whom while she has a lot of physiological similarities to Diddy Kong, a lot of her abilities and what she is known for are quite different (namely her pretensile hair and ability to utilize flight/gliding from it). That being said, I am personally pessimistic on Dixie Kong's prospects (I only expect two more characters for the base roster, and competition for DLC slots will be extremely fierce).

Your analogy of Isabelle to Ashley is on-point, but Isabelle finds a lot more of her popularity outside of those who write about Smash Bros. online. She was chosen because she is such an incredible icon, probably the biggest character to emerge from an established franchise this decade (Bandanna Dee, while a very old character in actuality, has experienced a similar rise in promotion of the course of this decade too).

Isabelle compared to the echoes announced for this game (Daisy, Richter, Chrom, and of course Dark Samus) is a far, far bigger name for her own franchise, and could at the present be by many to be "the face" of Animal Crossing. The others are major or very notable characters in their own series, but Isabelle is the only one that has been elevated to becoming a critical character.

You absolutely possess the right attitude about Dark Samus getting in. There is probably only one more echo fighter left to be announced (Ken), and of the five, Dark Samus managed to be one of them. This is absolutely incredible. Assuming Ken is all that is left, she managed to beat out the likes of Shadow, Octoling, Impa, Funky Kong, and possibly Dixie Kong (Dixie could technically work as an echo if they gave her a different recovery).



This is a good point. A lot of Villager's moveset was not really appropriate for someone like Isabelle. This was likely another reason why Isabelle was developed into a semi-clone and not just an echo fighter. Contrast that with Daisy, Richter, Dark Samus, and Chrom where a lot of their character is captured through their unique animations (idle stances, how they move, their taunts), but their actual attacks are not necessarily out of character (even though Dark Samus could definitely be an entirely unique fighter).



Dark Samus's animations allow the character to be true to herself without having to devote additional time and resources to balancing yet another character on the roster. Others have said how cool Dark Samus seems despite her being simply an echo fighter.




You have the right attitude. Dark Samus more or less won the lottery as far as getting into Smash Bros. is concerned.

I think we'll get two more full newcomers and the other newcomer might be any of the currently popular picks, but we live in a different world after the Isabelle announcement. Before, the pattern was obviously based on the ballot, and I figured that any announcements following the carpet bombshelling of Ridley, Simon, and K. Rool had to be on par in some way. Unless Isabelle was somehow hugely popular in the ballot, then it appears she was just picked for some more Animal Crossing love, since it is one of Nintendo's biggest franchises, yet it only has one character. My bet for the newcomers are Skull Kid and Geno, but we'll see.

The fact that she's a semi-clone is also bizarre. It might just be a sign of how tight the cast is if they couldn't give her a 100% unique moveset. I'd like to see Dixie Kong like this, too, if only so Metroid and DK can both have 4 reps like the deserve. I don't even like the Donkey Kong series, but I want to see it done justice. But the possibilities are pretty narrow at this point, so it might not happen anytime soon.

I initially thought the backlash for Isabelle would be much more severe. However, with all the hilarious artwork we've seen over the past week, it's evident that she's gone over well. Particularly, I happened to have class right as the Direct started, so I had to watch it over an hour after it aired. A female friend of mine told me that she and a Discord server of mostly other girls (for a browser game about breeding and dressing up dragons--not a very hardcore game) were freaking out over the new character. She hyped it up so much. Then when I finally sat down and watched the Direct, I was like "Really?" But Animal Crossing is really popular with girls, as it's somewhat of a casual game, so it seems that Isabelle really resonated with the female demographic. Not that all female gamers are casual, of course (this friend of mine plays plenty of hardcore titles as well), but I believe Sakurai has said in the past that he often considers the female audience with some of his decisions, and this might reflect that. Isabelle was less for us people getting excited over Ridley, K. Rool, and Dark Samus, and more for people like them.

The only Animal Crossing characters who are broadly recognized and popular are Tom Nook and K.K. Slider. They both might've worked as fighters, too (K.K. Slider even got a Mii costume), but Isabelle has become much more prominent than either of them in recent games. She also has a different appeal, as she's kind of a cutesy secretary, which is what's led to all the great art people have been putting out. And that's what I enjoy most about newcomers even if I don't like to play as them; they add another dimension of personality to the game that wasn't there before. So far, most newcomers have added some extra color to the game that wasn't there before.

Yeah, I'm a beggar, so I can't be a chooser. My two most wanted characters were one character who had one great but not too commercially successful GameCube game and a slew of misguided but above-average handheld games, and a character who's significant in two games from 2004 and 2007 but doesn't have too much screentime and those games are often overshadowed by their predecessors in a franchise that's not broadly popular to begin with. That's why when Sakurai said "Both fighters have been highly requested," I have a hard time believing it. He said in his column that it was a popular request in the West, but this thread is only 7 pages long with a handful of participants, and I doubt more than one or two other people here besides myself might have voted for Dark Samus in the ballot. So I'm just counting my blessings, and Dark Samus's model and animations certainly make me feel blessed enough.

I don't think Isabelle entering as a new character instead of Dark Samus is justifiable by popularity at all.... everybody is forgetting that ever since Melee, the series has been putting time and resources in obscure characters nonstop. Ice Climbers? Mr. Game & Watch? Marth and Roy didn't even have a game outside of Japan! Then that Pit guy came by? ROB? Wtf is a ROB? Now we have that Richer, R-Ricther, Ri─ where the heck is Alucard???!!11
Popularity is no excuse. Either way I am not going to complain, it just hurt a little bit to see they putting more time and resources into a clear Villager-like character than in a completely original character.

The problem is that Smash releases are outpaced by all of Nintendo's other series. Smash 64 and Melee came out just a couple years apart, and only had to focus on three generations of systems (NES, SNES, and N64). The only characters at that time (2001) I'd argue are missing are characters like Ridley, K. Rool, Dedede and Meta Knight, Diddy Kong, and Wario. The landscape was much smaller, so they could get away with adding weird characters like Game & Watch and Ice Climbers.

Brawl came out 7 years after Melee; that's 7 years of new games for all these different series. Between Melee and Brawl's releases, the entire Metroid Prime trilogy was released, along with dozens of other games, of course. Smash 4 came out over 6 years after that. Those are such long periods of time that both of those games had to skip entire Pokémon generations (Gen III and Gen V), since by the time those Smash titles released, a newer one had already come out. Smash just can't keep up with the rest of the gaming sphere.

If Smash games came out more frequently, or they spent less time developing each individual character, then they wouldn't have to worry about it. But it's the quality over quantity approach to Smash that makes it so fantastic. If that care and attention weren't given, it'd just be like one of those cheap Cartoon Network imitators that just feel cheap. So there's no real solution to the problem, unfortunately. It's just the way things are.

There's one glaring issue with the moveset I notice here, and that's a lack of good KO options. How will she get them without edgeguards, bair fishing or smash reads/punishes? The Charge Shot as it is is too integral unless you overhaul her normals too.

Well, not every character's special moves are kill moves, but her Up-B would definitely be a kill-move, and the Side-B might have some kill move potential. The fully-charghed Neutral-B would also be a kill move at close ranges, like a shotgun, whereas at further distances it wouldn't have as much knockback or damage. I'm not too imaginative about normal attacks, unfortunately.

I'm no Smash balance expert, though. This is why making characters in Smash is harder than people make it out to be. It's easy to draw up a moveset and go "Yeah, put that in," but to actually design something that's both fun and balanced is very difficult. Sakurai puts a lot more thought into characters' movesets than we'd think.

 

[Turnips and Daisies.]

Isabelle only shares 4 moves with Villager. The rest of her kit is drastically different, even more so that Wolf or Luigi or Lucas. Also, she doesn’t have the same general body shape like the other echo fighters do. She likely took as much or even more work than a traditional newcomer like K Rool and Ridley.

I don’t think they will add semi clones again.

 

[TyrantLizardKing]

Can I just say that I wish Dark Samus had better taunts? My ideas were:

Up: Strikes the Prime 3/Sm4sh trophy pose
Side: Her Assist Trophy end pose
Down: Her laughing from the cutscene during her second fight in Prime 2

 

[meleebrawler]

Can I just say that I wish Dark Samus had better taunts? My ideas were:

Up: Strikes the Prime 3/Sm4sh trophy pose
Side: Her Assist Trophy end pose
Down: Her laughing from the cutscene during her second fight in Prime 2

They work fine, the spinning one is revelling in the power of Phazon at her disposal, the stationary glow is Ridley style intimidation. The only weird one is her kneeling down and checking her arm "cannon", which seems just a little too human for her to do.

 

[TyrantLizardKing]

They work fine, the spinning one is revelling in the power of Phazon at her disposal, the stationary glow is Ridley style intimidation. The only weird one is her kneeling down and checking her arm "cannon", which seems just a little too human for her to do.

I think down taunt is the Metroid II boxart pose.

 

[meleebrawler]

I think down taunt is the Metroid II boxart pose.

Yeah, but it's still weird to see Dark Samus doing such an "orderly" pose as opposed to the weird contortions she normally does... then again, the visor design from Samus Returns is oddly similar to that of Dark Samus's...

 

[Reila]

Down: Her laughing from the cutscene during her second fight in Prime 2

Yep, I wanted this one so badly.

 

[GunBlaze]

Ladies and gentlemen. We haven't seen all the victory poses. It might just be there.

 

[Garo]

Might also be that the "stationary glow" is actually an idle. Seems tame enough for that.

 

[meleebrawler]

Might also be that the "stationary glow" is actually an idle. Seems tame enough for that.

Idle animations can't happen right after an attack. We do probably know one, though, she briefly raises her arm cannon to look at it.

 

[Garo]

Idle animations can't happen right after an attack. We do probably know one, though, she briefly raises her arm cannon to look at it.

Trailer magic is a thing, but at this point it's anyone's guess.

 

[Aetheri]

I'm inclined to believe her kneeling pose may just be an alternate taunt for Dark Samus.

Similar to how Captain Falcon has two "Show Me Your Moves!" taunts depending on which way he's facing. Most likely goes with her upright taunt since both of them she holds her arm cannon.

I also found it odd that she faces away from Samus while doing it in the comparison shot when she could've just did it normally.

However if that's not the case and it's still a separate taunt I'm willing to bet her laugh will be one of her victory animations, perhaps starts off with her laughing then flies off (akin to her Norion appearance in Corruption)

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

I believe that some of then negative reaction Isabelle got was unwarranted. Imagine if it was the other way around: "You made Dark Samus a semi clone but Isabelle an echo? Gee, thanks Sakurai", with Dark Samus and Isabelle being interchangeable with almost any other two characters. How can one be satisfied if one posseses an all or nothing attitude? People oughta learn to be happy for others rather than getting mad at not getting everything. From the devs' perspective, you can't do something nice without pissing someone off, so it's a lose-lose scenario.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

While initially I was annoyed at the fact she became an echo when she is fully capable of being at least a semi-clone, when I closely saw her animations I went: "Sweet, at least they got her animations correct."

 

[GunBlaze]

While initially I was annoyed at the fact she became an echo when she is fully capable of being at least a semi-clone, when I closely saw her animations I went: "Sweet, at least they got her animations correct."

She is a semi-clone tho.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

She is a semi-clone tho.

I.... Don't think she'd have the epsilon if she was a semi-clone.

 

[GunBlaze]

I.... Don't think she'd have the epsilon if she was a semi-clone.

Oh, you're talking Dark Samus? My B. Defaulted to Isabelle real fast lol

 

[Diem]

Isabelle only shares 4 moves with Villager. The rest of her kit is drastically different, even more so that Wolf or Luigi or Lucas. Also, she doesn’t have the same general body shape like the other echo fighters do. She likely took as much or even more work than a traditional newcomer like K Rool and Ridley.

I don’t think they will add semi clones again.

Well, we said that before after there were no semi-clones in Smash 4 and seemingly only Echo Fighters in Ultimate. Looks like clones and semi-clones will never go away.

Ladies and gentlemen. We haven't seen all the victory poses. It might just be there.

Hopefully. I'd be okay with that. It'd be better as a taunt, but I'd settle for a victory pose. If it's not in the game at all, though, I'd like to find a way to petition for it to be added in some fashion. There is a possibility that it won't be in the game, as her design and other attributes seem to derive from Metroid Prime 3, and to my recollection, she doesn't laugh in that game.

I believe that some of then negative reaction Isabelle got was unwarranted. Imagine if it was the other way around: "You made Dark Samus a semi clone but Isabelle an echo? Gee, thanks Sakurai", with Dark Samus and Isabelle being interchangeable with almost any other two characters. How can one be satisfied if one posseses an all or nothing attitude? People oughta learn to be happy for others rather than getting mad at not getting everything. From the devs' perspective, you can't do something nice without pissing someone off, so it's a lose-lose scenario.

Being happy for others has pretty much been me ever since I've been into Smash. None of the newcomers in Brawl were ones I would've asked for, though retroactively I came to love and appreciate some of those characters more (R.O.B., Dedede, Snake), but they weren't ones I got hyped for initially. All the character announcements for Smash 4 were the same way; Mega Man, Rosalina, Robin, Ryu, Cloud, Bayonetta… all characters that I knew others were happy for, and I was happy for those people, but I still stuck with R.O.B., Dedede, and Samus (though I play a bit of Mega Man, too). Same with Daisy, K. Rool, and the remaining fan picks (Isaac, Skull Kid, and Geno). They're characters that would make me happy because they make other people happy.

Ridley was a big deal (har har) for me, though. As a Metroid fan, it was nice to see him rendered so perfectly, even if he wasn't one of the characters I would've really wanted. I was excited for him because I wanted him, not because others wanted him, but he wasn't one of my most wanted. Much of my excitement was generated by just how good he and his moves looked. King K. Rool is similar in that it's a character I have no connection to, but how good he looks and how interesting his moves are make me want to try and play him. I just happen to have more of an attachment to Ridley.

Dark Samus is the first time I really got what I wanted. I have two primary, reasonable wants for characters in Smash: Dark Samus and Chibi-Robo, both being long-shots with tiny chances of making it in. Chibi-Robo's chance is that he had a more action-oriented game release in late 2015, complete with Amiibo, and would be a super unique fighter among the cast... but his popularity is very minor. Dark Samus is the only Metroid character besides Ridley who has enough of a presence to justify as a character (despite it only being two appearances), is more easily realizable than Ridley (so if Metroid needed a rep and Ridley wasn't possible, she would be), and could easily have a unique moveset… but still isn't very popular, even now. The Ridley reason is why I voted for her in the ballot, because I figured that was her best chance, but after Ridley got announced, that chance was lost.

So, for the first time in my life, I get to point and go "That's MY character." Not a character that I might kind of like, or get excited for mostly because other people are excited for it, but because this is the character I've wanted for at least 11 years. This is the character I'm going to represent proudly at any opportunity I can, even if she's not that great competitively. I had two wishes, and one of them finally got granted.

Now, I can only hope other people get their wishes. Bring on Isaac, Skull Kid, and Geno. Throw in Bandana Waddle Dee, Banjo & Kazooie, and apparently Shantae, too. It's fun seeing other people happy and excited. But for once, I get to enjoy being excited for something I want, too.

I've fully turned to liking Isabelle based on all the great artwork alone. That alone makes it all worth it. One of the best (and worst) things about characters getting added to Smash is all the artwork the characters get, and Isabelle's had some pretty top-tier art.

 

[Aetheri]

Well, we said that before after there were no semi-clones in Smash 4 and seemingly only Echo Fighters in Ultimate. Looks like clones and semi-clones will never go away.


Hopefully. I'd be okay with that. It'd be better as a taunt, but I'd settle for a victory pose. If it's not in the game at all, though, I'd like to find a way to petition for it to be added in some fashion. There is a possibility that it won't be in the game, as her design and other attributes seem to derive from Metroid Prime 3, and to my recollection, she doesn't laugh in that game.


Being happy for others has pretty much been me ever since I've been into Smash. None of the newcomers in Brawl were ones I would've asked for, though retroactively I came to love and appreciate some of those characters more (R.O.B., Dedede, Snake), but they weren't ones I got hyped for initially. All the character announcements for Smash 4 were the same way; Mega Man, Rosalina, Robin, Ryu, Cloud, Bayonetta… all characters that I knew others were happy for, and I was happy for those people, but I still stuck with R.O.B., Dedede, and Samus (though I play a bit of Mega Man, too). Same with Daisy, K. Rool, and the remaining fan picks (Isaac, Skull Kid, and Geno). They're characters that would make me happy because they make other people happy.

Ridley was a big deal (har har) for me, though. As a Metroid fan, it was nice to see him rendered so perfectly, even if he wasn't one of the characters I would've really wanted. I was excited for him because I wanted him, not because others wanted him, but he wasn't one of my most wanted. Much of my excitement was generated by just how good he and his moves looked. King K. Rool is similar in that it's a character I have no connection to, but how good he looks and how interesting his moves are make me want to try and play him. I just happen to have more of an attachment to Ridley.

Dark Samus is the first time I really got what I wanted. I have two primary, reasonable wants for characters in Smash: Dark Samus and Chibi-Robo, both being long-shots with tiny chances of making it in. Chibi-Robo's chance is that he had a more action-oriented game release in late 2015, complete with Amiibo, and would be a super unique fighter among the cast... but his popularity is very minor. Dark Samus is the only Metroid character besides Ridley who has enough of a presence to justify as a character (despite it only being two appearances), is more easily realizable than Ridley (so if Metroid needed a rep and Ridley wasn't possible, she would be), and could easily have a unique moveset… but still isn't very popular, even now. The Ridley reason is why I voted for her in the ballot, because I figured that was her best chance, but after Ridley got announced, that chance was lost.

So, for the first time in my life, I get to point and go "That's MY character." Not a character that I might kind of like, or get excited for mostly because other people are excited for it, but because this is the character I've wanted for at least 11 years. This is the character I'm going to represent proudly at any opportunity I can, even if she's not that great competitively. I had two wishes, and one of them finally got granted.

Now, I can only hope other people get their wishes. Bring on Isaac, Skull Kid, and Geno. Throw in Bandana Waddle Dee, Banjo & Kazooie, and apparently Shantae, too. It's fun seeing other people happy and excited. But for once, I get to enjoy being excited for something I want, too.

I've fully turned to liking Isabelle based on all the great artwork alone. That alone makes it all worth it. One of the best (and worst) things about characters getting added to Smash is all the artwork the characters get, and Isabelle's had some pretty top-tier art.

Dark Samus does laugh in her boss fight when she's interrupted while regenerating and as the AU 313...though it doesn't have the animation that it does in Prime 2.

 

[Ridley_Prime]

Kind of a side note on the Metroid newcomer talk, but still like how any support Sylux gets now and in the future will have to be genuine through and through, as it can no longer live off the “Well if you can’t have Ridley/Dark Samus...” quota, meaning Sylux will have to pull his own weight and eventually earn his spot, assuming MP4 or something proves him notable enough. Wish his genuine fans best of luck though, even if people (myself included) are already mostly content enough with the material Metroid has in Smash now.

 

[Diem]

Dark Samus does laugh in her boss fight when she's interrupted while regenerating and as the AU 313...though it doesn't have the animation that it does in Prime 2.

Really? I just looked back at some footage and I couldn't hear it. Must be really subtle. In which case, I wouldn't count on the Smash team listening that closely.

Kind of a side note on the Metroid newcomer talk, but still like how any support Sylux gets now and in the future will have to be genuine through and through, as it can no longer live off the “Well if you can’t have Ridley/Dark Samus...” quota, meaning Sylux will have to pull his own weight and eventually earn his spot, assuming MP4 or something proves him notable enough. Wish his genuine fans best of luck though, even if people (myself included) are already mostly content enough with the material Metroid has in Smash now.

Sylux never made a whole lot of sense to me. His significance is that he was a minor character in one DS game, and has been teased in the endings of two games in all of 10 years following his initial appearance, and that's it. People want him mostly based on the promise that he's going to be a cool character, but so far he has less going for him than even Rundas. He'll obviously be a major part of Metroid Prime 4 and maybe its sequels, so he'll get his proper spotlight soon, and hopefully it's awesome, but him getting into Smash now would be just as ridiculous as Corrin getting into Smash before FE: Fates was released internationally.

Also his design seriously needs updating. It's mostly a bunch of weird geometry with a singular, glossy metal texture and glowing green lines. Some elements of his design are cool enough that he's stuck with people who want him, and it was fine for the DS, but if you put that into Smash, it's going to look butt-ugly. Metroid Prime 4 will no-doubt give him a new design to match the better technology and presentation, so I'd rather wait for that, too.

 

[Aetheri]

Really? I just looked back at some footage and I couldn't hear it. Must be really subtle. In which case, I wouldn't count on the Smash team listening that closely.

Listen carefully around 4:50 and 15:20

 

[User Name String]

You know I just realized something I love about Dark Samus. It always grew and changed in every encounter in regards to Samus with the main struggle being control.

In Echos it is introduced as a thoughtless and reckless killing machine that only cared for Phazon until it faced Samus. It over estimated its superior power and fought without any control or tact (the mindless charges, taunting, and spread-shot) and lost to Samus's skill and control (Reactive weaponry and options ,deadly focus, and single accurate shots) in its first encounter.
In its second encounter with Samus it used more strategy such as trapping Samus, cloaking itself, and more focused attacks.
However it in the final battle of the game it mimics Samus to the best of its ability not in her weaponry but her skill and control. It encounters Samus with the wary pose she had at the beginning of the previous fights rather than its usual bullet happy method and keeps control.

In Corruption D. Samus finds planet Phaze and starts spreading phazon across the Cosmos by utilizing the space Pirates and infecting them and other threats with its own phazon.
What D. Samus does to try and reduce the treat Samus possessed is taking away the the thing Samus always had, control. The Phazon in samus would eventually take over if she didn't hurry so she was on a time limit and could potentially pose a danger to her allies if her Phazon spiked, but even then every step she took to prevent Phazon take over also took her one step closer to corruption through the forced intake of Phazon and facing her comrades that had been corrupted as she was and unable to help them. This all culminates in Samus facing off against Dark Samus while nearing corruption and Dark Samus knew it as it taunted her throughout the fight not unlike its first encounters.

 

[Crystanium]

Neutral-B:

The scattershot attack, obviously. Charging it increases its range and damage, but it can't go nearly as far as Samus's Charge Shot, though the cone of fire is wider than the Charge Shot. This makes it a good zoning tool, but it can only be used once before it has to be charged again for maximum effectiveness. Maybe allow it to be angled a bit during fire, to represent how Dark Samus sweeps the area with it in her boss fights.

Since Dark Samus charges her scattershot in MP2:E, a fully charged Scatter Shot could do 21% damage, which is the amount the assist trophy does. 1% per bullet. Uncharged could do 3% damage like Samus' uncharged Charge Shot.

Up-B:

This one was the trickiest one to think of, but I really liked the idea of it once I thought it out. It should be based on her ground slam attack she does in both of her appearances, and work a little like Cloud's Up-B in that you press it once to go up, and you can press it a second time to come back down.

On the way back down, it can be angled up to 45 degrees. This makes it a little more versatile and unique, but not something so drastically different that there would be major concerns about its balance. In particular, the delay between when the move reaches its maximum height and when you can use the move to go downwards can be tweaked to help balance it, as well as the endlag after it lands.

Well, this was actually my idea, Kinetic Phazon Cannon. See post #77. I explained my concept in detail.

Side-B:

The homing orb attack she uses as an assist trophy. Just tapping the move quickly only puts out one orb. Charging it generates three orbs, which home in one after the other. This makes it a good pressuring tool, especially for edgeguarding. It also makes it a nice contrast from Samus's missiles, which would have longer range and do more damage.

The animation there resembles Samus' u-smash. It's odd that you'd leave out missiles and homing missiles for Dark Samus, given she's capable of shooting either one, as well as a Phazon-charged kind that resembles the ice spreader. But, it's your idea.

Down-B:

This one's the simplest of them all. It's just her "ground tentacle move" that Dark Samus has in all her appearances, though without tentacles in MP2. This is less of an offensive move, though. In the games, it's primarily used to deflect projectiles. So, in Smash, it should reflect projectiles, while also dealing a bit of damage and knockback up close. It'd be functionally equivalent to Pit's Down-B, protecting on both sides, but leaving the character exposed from the top.

Once again, that resembles the animation of d-tilt.

Anyway, I saw a video of Samus using z-air yesterday, which was uploaded by Cyber Shaman on YouTube. I noticed something peculiar about z-air in that game. It's not that it behaves similarly to SSBM's version of z-air. When Samus used z-air, Ridley was to the right of her, above where her arm cannon fired z-air. Once it hit Ridley, it began to curve upward like real electricity connecting to a nearby object. This happens again at 7:11 in the video. Will z-air have a homing effect? Or is this just occurring after it connects?

 

[Metallinatus]

Let the me diverge the attention to Isabelle again a little bit According to Siliconera;

• Isabelle is indeed based on Villager, such as being able to pocket items, fly with balloons, and more. But she’s not Villager’s echo fighter. In the first place, Villager and Isabelle have different body types and proportions, and there isn’t a single shared animation between the two. One of the reasons is because Isabelle follows the slimmer, updated proportions of characters in Animal Crossing: New Leaf.

• In the previous game, the development team had a debate over whether Villager should use the new proportions as well, but decided against it as it didn’t fit the character, and because limbs felt shorter in Animal Crossing anyways due to the bird’s eye view.

That's something I can live with, and it makes the definition of echo even murkier, as Lucina doesn't share Marth's proportions, while a certain mustache-bearing doctor on the other hand....

 

[Turnips and Daisies.]

Let the me diverge the attention to Isabelle again a little bit According to Siliconera;

That's something I can live with, and it makes the definition of echo even murkier, as Lucina doesn't share Marth's proportions, while a certain mustache-bearing doctor on the other hand....

Lucina and Daisy are shorter than their counterparts but the bones are still the same. So they are comptatible characters. Dr Mario and Luigi also have the same bone structure. Many characters do in fact.

Isabelle doesn’t seem like she fits Villager’s boneset so nothing can simply be ported over. Thus, she cannot be based on Villager.

 

[Diem]

Happy October everyone. Just a couple months away from launch day!

Here's some seasonal art from Cryophase to start off the month:

Since Dark Samus charges her scattershot in MP2:E, a fully charged Scatter Shot could do 21% damage, which is the amount the assist trophy does. 1% per bullet. Uncharged could do 3% damage like Samus' uncharged Charge Shot.



Well, this was actually my idea, Kinetic Phazon Cannon. See post #77. I explained my concept in detail.




The animation there resembles Samus' u-smash. It's odd that you'd leave out missiles and homing missiles for Dark Samus, given she's capable of shooting either one, as well as a Phazon-charged kind that resembles the ice spreader. But, it's your idea.




Once again, that resembles the animation of d-tilt.

Anyway, I saw a video of Samus using z-air yesterday, which was uploaded by Cyber Shaman on YouTube. I noticed something peculiar about z-air in that game. It's not that it behaves similarly to SSBM's version of z-air. When Samus used z-air, Ridley was to the right of her, above where her arm cannon fired z-air. Once it hit Ridley, it began to curve upward like real electricity connecting to a nearby object. This happens again at 7:11 in the video. Will z-air have a homing effect? Or is this just occurring after it connects?

Yeah, having it be a multihit attack would be good, although it's unlikely that every bullet would hit the majority of the time, so that would have to be taken into account. It'd also be a pain in the ass to program, with all the individual hitboxes, so I can see why they might have gone the Echo Fighter route if they were pressed for time. Perhaps it would be more practical to have more generalized hitboxes than precise ones. Instead of each bullet having its own hitbox, maybe make it more like Bowser/Charizard's fire breath. This would also help it be more consistent,.

Ah, I didn't see your post in that thread. Great minds think alike, I guess! Your concept of it is a little more powerful and flexible than mine, but I like how it functions similarly to Fox's/Ridley's Up-B. Though if it was given that flexibility plus the shockwave effect, it might be a little too potent. I went with it only being able to angle downwards within a 90 degree scope, which would allow it to be a potent move, but not totally flexible and therefore it's able to be punished if misused.

I left out missiles because, while Dark Samus does possess that ability, I was choosing to focus on her more unique abilities, especially since Samus's missiles aren't a great move in the first place. Since this move was already demonstrated in Smash 4, it would seem odd to leave it out. The animation does resemble Samus's Up-Smash, but this move wouldn't really work as an Up-Smash or any other Up-Move, so retooling it into a Side-B would be better.

The animation resembles down-tilt, but the move functions more like some characters' Down-B. It's worth noting that the animation Dark Samus uses for this move in the Prime games is totally different than what's used in Smash. The reuse of Samus's animation was just a cut corner, since it's not important as an Assist Trophy. As a playable character, the move would have a different animation.

Perhaps the Z-air can be moved around like that weird glitch in Melee? This might allow it to tether to ledges better, making it a more useful recovery option. Though I don't know if the Joe Schmoe playing the demo at that event would be aware of that ability, so either he did it by accident or it is homing like you suggested.

Lucina and Daisy are shorter than their counterparts but the bones are still the same. So they are comptatible characters. Dr Mario and Luigi also have the same bone structure. Many characters do in fact.

Isabelle doesn’t seem like she fits Villager’s boneset so nothing can simply be ported over. Thus, she cannot be based on Villager.

Yep, kind of similar to how Link/Young Link and Pikachu/Pichu share the same bones, but one of the characters is just a scaled-down version of the original. The fundamental differences are in their movesets, movements, and weights. Otherwise, they'd basically just be differently-sized alt-skins, which is almost what Dark Pit and Lucina were.

It looks like Isabelle was going to be more work anyways, needing a much more custom model and boneset, so they went the extra mile to give her some unique moves as well. Guess that's how we ended up with a semi-clone this time around. It was less about working with time constraints and more that the character would just barely not work as an Echo Fighter, so might as well make the character more unique. And since Animal Crossing is one of Nintendo's most popular franchises--more popular than Metroid, Pikmin, Fire Emblem, Kid Icarus, etc.--they'd get more mileage out of that effort than they would for most other characters.

Which is why I'm still skeptical about Dark Samus being floatier than Samus. I'm hopeful, but I can only believe it when I see it. Giving her different weight and movement attributes would require more thought and work than just copying it over from Samus, which goes against what makes Echo Fighters easy to make in the first place. Granted, Dark Samus and Chrom have gotten some special treatment in that regard (Dark Samus's amazing animation work and Chrom's different Up-B and Final Smash), and broke some of the rules that Echo Fighters were said to follow, so it's entirely possible that Dark Samus has different movement. It's just more on the unlikely side.

 

[RandomAce]

Weird...

I went to look at Dark Samus’s page on the Smash Website and blog and they refer Dark Samus as a “she” now.

So, is Dark Samus our first female villain?

 

[Aetheri]

Weird...

I went to look at Dark Samus’s page on the Smash Website and blog and they refer Dark Samus as a “she” now.

So, is Dark Samus our first female villain?

Technically second after Wendy, but first stand alone female villain.

For the record she was always a she. The Prime scan logs refer to her using female pronouns.

 

[RandomAce]

Technically second after Wendy, but first stand alone female villain.

For the record she was always a she. The Prime scan logs refer to her using female pronouns.

I said in terms of Smash, lol.

But yeah, Dark Samus was the first stand a lone female villain.

 

[GunBlaze]

Weird...

I went to look at Dark Samus’s page on the Smash Website and blog and they refer Dark Samus as a “she” now.

So, is Dark Samus our first female villain?

I can confirm this post is true.

Because of this, Dark Samus is, indeed, our first non-alternate constume female villain.