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Social Disciples of Dark Samus

Diem

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How’s the switch modding scene like? Any progress
It hasn't exploded yet, but it's pretty significant. The biggest thing is that there is a hardware vulnerability in the Tegra chip (the Switch's GPU/CPU) which allows Homebrew and stuff to be installed. Because it's a hardware vulnerability, that means the only way Nintendo could fix it is with a hardware revision, not any kind of digital update. So, that's a bit of a doozy for Nintendo. That means it'll probably be easier to install mods and stuff in the long-term than it was on the Wii U or 3DS.

People have gotten emulators and stuff to run on the Switch already. I'm sure there will be Smash mods within a year of its release. But I'm not an expert on this stuff, so don't take my word for it.
 

smashingDoug

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It hasn't exploded yet, but it's pretty significant. The biggest thing is that there is a hardware vulnerability in the Tegra chip (the Switch's GPU/CPU) which allows Homebrew and stuff to be installed. Because it's a hardware vulnerability, that means the only way Nintendo could fix it is with a hardware revision, not any kind of digital update. So, that's a bit of a doozy for Nintendo. That means it'll probably be easier to install mods and stuff in the long-term than it was on the Wii U or 3DS.

People have gotten emulators and stuff to run on the Switch already. I'm sure there will be Smash mods within a year of its release. But I'm not an expert on this stuff, so don't take my word for it.
Could they not fix in in just a newer version of the switch? like say a Smash edition of the switch if one comes out
 
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Diem

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Could they not fix in in just a newer version of the switch? like say a Smash edition of the switch if one comes out
Yes, if they released a newer version of the Switch (not necessarily one with any new design or feature, but just one with patched Tegra chips), then that vulnerability would be closed, but only for those systems. To my knowledge, no such thing has occurred, so the nearly 20 million systems already shipped are totally vulnerable.

Here's an article explaining the vulnerability.
 

smashingDoug

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Yes, if they released a newer version of the Switch (not necessarily one with any new design or feature, but just one with patched Tegra chips), then that vulnerability would be closed, but only for those systems. To my knowledge, no such thing has occurred, so the nearly 20 million systems already shipped are totally vulnerable.

Here's an article explaining the vulnerability.
I hope Nintendo won’t ban people just because of a modded Switch,
 
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Uffe

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Here you guys and gals go. I made this today. Enjoy! :D
Dark Samus Varia Suit.png
 
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Diem

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Finished a playthrough of Metroid Prime 2 last night. I started it last year, but for a few reasons, I wasn't in a position to finish it until the past couple of weeks. Gonna move on to Metroid Prime 3 soon, and boy am I excited now that I know what's in store on December.


...I have no idea where to upload footage to make high quality gifs.
 
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IronTed

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That reminds me to ask this question, what is everyone's favorite Dark Samus boss fight, and why?

For me it's Dark Samus 2 in Prime 2, but it's mainly because it retains the simplicity of the first fight while making the setting stand out much more. For starters, seeing her dispatch the Dark Pirates was a nice touch, especially since it acts as the final reminder that she isn't aligned with either the Ing or the Space Pirates. Then having to go on and fight in a large elevator was both unique and epic, especially once you reached the top. And to top it all off, they make her "death" way more interesting than in the prior fight. Indeed, she falls a huge distance, and when you encounter her again you're reminded of her insane durability, rivaling (and even surpassing) that of Ridley himself.

As for the fight itself, well, all of them (at least in Echoes) are generally the same, and it's always cool to compare how both Samuses (Sami?) become much stronger and acquire new abilities as you progress through the game. The fights also stand out considering most significant bosses tend to be quite large, while DS is comparatively small and agile.
 

Diem

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That reminds me to ask this question, what is everyone's favorite Dark Samus boss fight, and why?

For me it's Dark Samus 2 in Prime 2, but it's mainly because it retains the simplicity of the first fight while making the setting stand out much more. For starters, seeing her dispatch the Dark Pirates was a nice touch, especially since it acts as the final reminder that she isn't aligned with either the Ing or the Space Pirates. Then having to go on and fight in a large elevator was both unique and epic, especially once you reached the top. And to top it all off, they make her "death" way more interesting than in the prior fight. Indeed, she falls a huge distance, and when you encounter her again you're reminded of her insane durability, rivaling (and even surpassing) that of Ridley himself.

As for the fight itself, well, all of them (at least in Echoes) are generally the same, and it's always cool to compare how both Samuses (Sami?) become much stronger and acquire new abilities as you progress through the game. The fights also stand out considering most significant bosses tend to be quite large, while DS is comparatively small and agile.
I actually played the elevator fight last week (twice; a while ago I ripped the ROM file of my copy of Metroid Prime Trilogy so I could play it on Dolphin, and during the fight I had some performance issues, so after it I opened up the graphics config and tried to tweak something and the whole emulator crashed before I saved). The whole way it plays out is pretty awesome, and really helps cement Dark Samus's character, subtle as it may be.

The first fight in Metroid Prime 2 is special to me, because it's the first time you encounter Dark Samus after the beginning of the game, so it's the first time you get to see just what this thing is. It was also the only one I got to play in the early days (for some reason I guess I got burnt out partway through Torvus Bog when I first got the game, and it wasn't until years later I'd make actual progress). But the cinematography of the cutscene was amazing, and the way Dark Samus crashed through generators like cardboard is a great way of showing how powerful she is in gameplay.

Having just played the final Prime 2 fight last night... It's not as good as it should've been. There's so much waiting to absorb Phazon to fire back. And sometimes you get hit by the bits that you miss and they make you lose what you've absorbed (but sometimes they don't), so it's just frustrating. Should've just built off the foundation of the first two great fights instead of making it all gimmicky and tedious.

Though I think the Dark Samus fight at the end of Metroid Prime 3 is probably the best. By then, Dark Samus is fully powered up, so you're fighting the most badass form. She's summoning down pillars of crystalline Phazon, splitting into Dark Echoes, flying around the room, it's awesome. And this time, it's personal, as Dark Samus is personally responsible for the deaths of the other hunters, as well as everyone else who was a casualty to the conflict in that game. Dark Samus is no longer just a mysterious creature wandering around Aether; she's now a full-fledged villain who almost conquered the universe singlehandedly. The only villain more powerful than her in Metroid canon is Gorea, but that thing is so absurdly powerful it's almost in a different category.

Unfortunately, the Aurora Unit 313 fight that follows isn't nearly as good. I heard someone say that a small rearrangement of events in that ending would've made it way better. Instead of fighting Dark Samus first, you fight Aurora Unit 313 first, and after you defeat it, then Phaaze starts to fall apart (like how Dark Aether fell apart at the end of Echoes). That's when you fight Dark Samus, as Phaaze falls apart around both of you.

Perhaps that order of events was considered too similar to the previous game, or perhaps it didn't make sense in canon (if Dark Samus draws her power from Phaaze, if it's destroyed/falling apart, then she wouldn't be powerful enough for a fight). Either way, without that scrutiny, I think it would've been better, but the Dark Samus fight as-is was still amazing.
 

IronTed

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I actually played the elevator fight last week (twice; a while ago I ripped the ROM file of my copy of Metroid Prime Trilogy so I could play it on Dolphin, and during the fight I had some performance issues, so after it I opened up the graphics config and tried to tweak something and the whole emulator crashed before I saved). The whole way it plays out is pretty awesome, and really helps cement Dark Samus's character, subtle as it may be.

The first fight in Metroid Prime 2 is special to me, because it's the first time you encounter Dark Samus after the beginning of the game, so it's the first time you get to see just what this thing is. It was also the only one I got to play in the early days (for some reason I guess I got burnt out partway through Torvus Bog when I first got the game, and it wasn't until years later I'd make actual progress). But the cinematography of the cutscene was amazing, and the way Dark Samus crashed through generators like cardboard is a great way of showing how powerful she is in gameplay.

Having just played the final Prime 2 fight last night... It's not as good as it should've been. There's so much waiting to absorb Phazon to fire back. And sometimes you get hit by the bits that you miss and they make you lose what you've absorbed (but sometimes they don't), so it's just frustrating. Should've just built off the foundation of the first two great fights instead of making it all gimmicky and tedious.

Though I think the Dark Samus fight at the end of Metroid Prime 3 is probably the best. By then, Dark Samus is fully powered up, so you're fighting the most badass form. She's summoning down pillars of crystalline Phazon, splitting into Dark Echoes, flying around the room, it's awesome. And this time, it's personal, as Dark Samus is personally responsible for the deaths of the other hunters, as well as everyone else who was a casualty to the conflict in that game. Dark Samus is no longer just a mysterious creature wandering around Aether; she's now a full-fledged villain who almost conquered the universe singlehandedly. The only villain more powerful than her in Metroid canon is Gorea, but that thing is so absurdly powerful it's almost in a different category.

Unfortunately, the Aurora Unit 313 fight that follows isn't nearly as good. I heard someone say that a small rearrangement of events in that ending would've made it way better. Instead of fighting Dark Samus first, you fight Aurora Unit 313 first, and after you defeat it, then Phaaze starts to fall apart (like how Dark Aether fell apart at the end of Echoes). That's when you fight Dark Samus, as Phaaze falls apart around both of you.

Perhaps that order of events was considered too similar to the previous game, or perhaps it didn't make sense in canon (if Dark Samus draws her power from Phaaze, if it's destroyed/falling apart, then she wouldn't be powerful enough for a fight). Either way, without that scrutiny, I think it would've been better, but the Dark Samus fight as-is was still amazing.
I definitely agree as far as the final Echoes fight was concerned. The latter part felt like a poor man's Metroid Prime essence fight. Although at least on Trilogy version, catching the phazon isn't that irritating.

But I've never heard someone say that Gorea is the most powerful Metroid character. DS always seemed more stupid OP given the nature of phazon.

I think they should've scrapped the idea of an AU fight completely. Let's be honest, it was an obvious Mother Brain reference, and those fights were never particularly engaging. 313 isn't just sitting there, but it isn't especially engaging compared to the other main bosses. Simply having 313 destroyed some other way (just say that 313 and DS are linked and killing the former also killed the latter), while having the final battle just be DS (with maybe some metroids if they wanted to bring it full circle) would have been more satisfying.
 

meleebrawler

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I definitely agree as far as the final Echoes fight was concerned. The latter part felt like a poor man's Metroid Prime essence fight. Although at least on Trilogy version, catching the phazon isn't that irritating.

But I've never heard someone say that Gorea is the most powerful Metroid character. DS always seemed more stupid OP given the nature of phazon.

I think they should've scrapped the idea of an AU fight completely. Let's be honest, it was an obvious Mother Brain reference, and those fights were never particularly engaging. 313 isn't just sitting there, but it isn't especially engaging compared to the other main bosses. Simply having 313 destroyed some other way (just say that 313 and DS are linked and killing the former also killed the latter), while having the final battle just be DS (with maybe some metroids if they wanted to bring it full circle) would have been more satisfying.
But then they wouldn't have met their giant final boss quota!
 

Diem

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I definitely agree as far as the final Echoes fight was concerned. The latter part felt like a poor man's Metroid Prime essence fight. Although at least on Trilogy version, catching the phazon isn't that irritating.

But I've never heard someone say that Gorea is the most powerful Metroid character. DS always seemed more stupid OP given the nature of phazon.

I think they should've scrapped the idea of an AU fight completely. Let's be honest, it was an obvious Mother Brain reference, and those fights were never particularly engaging. 313 isn't just sitting there, but it isn't especially engaging compared to the other main bosses. Simply having 313 destroyed some other way (just say that 313 and DS are linked and killing the former also killed the latter), while having the final battle just be DS (with maybe some metroids if they wanted to bring it full circle) would have been more satisfying.
Yeah, I was playing the Trilogy version, and it would've been fun if getting hit didn't make me drop the charge sometimes.

Gorea is a godlike being able to change its own atomic structure, copy the genetic code and match the intellect of the Alimbics (who were on the level of the Chozo and Luminoth), and singlehandedly wiped out the Alimbic civilization, but not before the Alimbics were able to seal it away and prevent it from wiping out the rest of the universe. And then after it's reawakened, it copies the weaponry of all the other hunters. Again, its power level is absurd. This is why comparing Samus to Boba Fett or any other bounty hunter is stupid, because none of them have to deal with stuff like this.

Never thought about it as a Mother Brain reference, but even then, like you said, it's not very engaging. The first game had the titular Metroid Prime, which was built up through the logbook entries. The second game had the Emperor Ing, who was the monstrous leader of the Ing you'd been fighting the whole game, as well as Dark Samus, who you've also been encountering and fighting throughout the game. But what buildup was there for the Aurora Unit? You met one in the beginning of the game, helped one in Skytown, but what impact does that have on fighting one? Not much.
 

PlasmaSnow12

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Well the Federation makes a big deal about 313 being stolen, its how the pirates were able to put the virus into the other Aurora Units, and also its what allows Dark Samus to control Phaaze directly, firing the Leviathans off intelligently and much faster.
Also 313 being connected to Phaaze is probably the only reason all of the Phazon in the universe got wiped out once the brain was destroyed, so there's that.
*shrug*
I agree they could've had a lot more effort put into it, making the reveal more exciting, and I think its the weakest in terms of presence compared to Metroid Prime or the Emperor Ing/Dark Samus, but I still think its cool and memorable. Still wish we got a third phase of the fight against Dark Samus again as Phaaze collapsed or something
 

Diem

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Well the Federation makes a big deal about 313 being stolen, its how the pirates were able to put the virus into the other Aurora Units, and also its what allows Dark Samus to control Phaaze directly, firing the Leviathans off intelligently and much faster.
Also 313 being connected to Phaaze is probably the only reason all of the Phazon in the universe got wiped out once the brain was destroyed, so there's that.
*shrug*
I agree they could've had a lot more effort put into it, making the reveal more exciting, and I think its the weakest in terms of presence compared to Metroid Prime or the Emperor Ing/Dark Samus, but I still think its cool and memorable. Still wish we got a third phase of the fight against Dark Samus again as Phaaze collapsed or something
Yeah, I know it has a lot of plot importance, I'm just saying it doesn't have as much emotional impact, for lack of a better term. The Metroid Prime boss is, well, Metroid Prime, so you're fighting the game's namesake and the source of Tallon IV's troubles that's prophesied to destroy the planet. Emperor Ing is, well, the emperor of the Ing, who are the main antagonists of the game and the source of Aether's troubles, who almost destroyed the planet and would've expanded on a galactic scale, as well as Dark Samus, who Dark Samus/Metroid Prime and your rival throughout the game. Aurora Unit 313 is just referenced here and there,

Not hating on the game or the boss fight, to be clear. I think it's fine, it's just not as good as it could've been. My memory also isn't too fresh, as it's been a couple years since I last completed the game, and my memories of it are mostly overshadowed by the Dark Samus fight prior. I'll start my playthrough of Corruption tonight or tomorrow, so I'll form a fresh opinion soon enough.

I'm not one of those people who hates Corruption. After all, it's the game that solidified Dark Samus as one of the series's most powerful and awesome villains. For a long time it was even my favorite game of the trilogy, but after playing through each game multiple times and having a more fully-formed opinion on them, I have to say that Metroid Prime 2: Echoes is my personal favorite, as it had the biggest impact on me overall. It's what introduced me to Dark Samus and made her one of my favorite characters early on, and everything about the setting and the plot really hooked me in ways the first game didn't. Which is why it's strange that I never finished the second game until after I'd finished the third game, but I can't go back in time and ask my younger self what the deal was.
 

meleebrawler

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Yeah, I know it has a lot of plot importance, I'm just saying it doesn't have as much emotional impact, for lack of a better term. The Metroid Prime boss is, well, Metroid Prime, so you're fighting the game's namesake and the source of Tallon IV's troubles that's prophesied to destroy the planet. Emperor Ing is, well, the emperor of the Ing, who are the main antagonists of the game and the source of Aether's troubles, who almost destroyed the planet and would've expanded on a galactic scale, as well as Dark Samus, who Dark Samus/Metroid Prime and your rival throughout the game. Aurora Unit 313 is just referenced here and there,

Not hating on the game or the boss fight, to be clear. I think it's fine, it's just not as good as it could've been. My memory also isn't too fresh, as it's been a couple years since I last completed the game, and my memories of it are mostly overshadowed by the Dark Samus fight prior. I'll start my playthrough of Corruption tonight or tomorrow, so I'll form a fresh opinion soon enough.

I'm not one of those people who hates Corruption. After all, it's the game that solidified Dark Samus as one of the series's most powerful and awesome villains. For a long time it was even my favorite game of the trilogy, but after playing through each game multiple times and having a more fully-formed opinion on them, I have to say that Metroid Prime 2: Echoes is my personal favorite, as it had the biggest impact on me overall. It's what introduced me to Dark Samus and made her one of my favorite characters early on, and everything about the setting and the plot really hooked me in ways the first game didn't. Which is why it's strange that I never finished the second game until after I'd finished the third game, but I can't go back in time and ask my younger self what the deal was.
Chances are he or she got stuck on the Boost or Spider Guardians.

I too grew to appreciate Prime 2 the more I played. People are mixed on the beam ammo system but I felt it helped encourage different ways of tackling problems, much like Breath Of The Wild's breakable weapons (without it you'd just have the Light Beam on all the time in Dark Aether and vice versa, and hello, Annihilator Beam). They put a nice twist on the local race having had a tough time by NOT making them extinct upon your arrival, and the Luminoth just being different from the Chozo made for far more unique decor and environments than we'd seen in Metroid up until that point. Not a single place has lava or anything ressembling it! I hope we see more of the Luminoth in the future, they're one of the precious few things in Metroid not too dead to do so.

To be completely honest, Dark Samus didn't make much of an impression on me at first. I of course hadn't 100 percented the first game so to me she was just kinda... there. It wasn't until she revived for the first time and emitted that oh-so memorable laugh that I really started to take notice of her. I most vividly remember the look of pure horror on Samus's face upon defeating Dark Samus for the (then) last time. I remember little old me semi-jokingly chalking it up to Samus being afraid this is what she actually looked like inside her suit now, but now I see it can be a lot things going through Samus's head: "Why does this thing look so much like me? Why is it still coming after me? Why is it still alive!?"
 

IronTed

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Chances are he or she got stuck on the Boost or Spider Guardians.

I too grew to appreciate Prime 2 the more I played. People are mixed on the beam ammo system but I felt it helped encourage different ways of tackling problems, much like Breath Of The Wild's breakable weapons (without it you'd just have the Light Beam on all the time in Dark Aether and vice versa, and hello, Annihilator Beam). They put a nice twist on the local race having had a tough time by NOT making them extinct upon your arrival, and the Luminoth just being different from the Chozo made for far more unique decor and environments than we'd seen in Metroid up until that point. Not a single place has lava or anything ressembling it! I hope we see more of the Luminoth in the future, they're one of the precious few things in Metroid not too dead to do so.

To be completely honest, Dark Samus didn't make much of an impression on me at first. I of course hadn't 100 percented the first game so to me she was just kinda... there. It wasn't until she revived for the first time and emitted that oh-so memorable laugh that I really started to take notice of her. I most vividly remember the look of pure horror on Samus's face upon defeating Dark Samus for the (then) last time. I remember little old me semi-jokingly chalking it up to Samus being afraid this is what she actually looked like inside her suit now, but now I see it can be a lot things going through Samus's head: "Why does this thing look so much like me? Why is it still coming after me? Why is it still alive!?"
Prime 2 is definitely my favorite of the Trilogy. Sure, it has a ridiculously slow start, and the UI is also ridiculously obtuse, but the positives easily outweigh the negatives. More complex puzzles, consistent theming, and a truly brand new world are just a few positives that come to mind. It feels like Prime was Retro laying the foundation, while Echoes was them having much more freedom to do what they wanted. It's such a shame Nintendo didn't push the game much, if at all, although to be fair Nintendo was pretty much done with the Gamecube post 2003.
 

NintenRob

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I just want to say, despite having nothing to do with the character, the Brinstar Depths theme fits Dark Samus really well, exceptionally well.

I'm glad we got to hear more of the remix in her reveal, her reveal kicks the theme off when ends in the sample
 

Aetheri

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I just want to say, despite having nothing to do with the character, the Brinstar Depths theme fits Dark Samus really well, exceptionally well.

I'm glad we got to hear more of the remix in her reveal, her reveal kicks the theme off when ends in the sample
As well as the Brinstar Depths theme fits (and to extent the new Parasite Queen remix as well which is used in her spotlight trailer)

We still need Dark Samus's theme in the game in some capacity now that she's actually a playable fighter!
I would actually love to hear a Smash original remix for Dark Samus.
 

NintenRob

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As well as the Brinstar Depths theme fits (and to extent the new Parasite Queen remix as well which is used in her spotlight trailer)

We still need Dark Samus's theme in the game in some capacity now that she's actually a playable fighter!
I would actually love to hear a Smash original remix for Dark Samus.
Unfortunately they showed the Metroid songlist and they're arranged chronologically, and it showed no Dark Samus
 

Aetheri

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Unfortunately they showed the Metroid songlist and they're arranged chronologically, and it showed no Dark Samus
We didn't see the entire list, and it can always be added later.
 

Diem

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Chances are he or she got stuck on the Boost or Spider Guardians.

I too grew to appreciate Prime 2 the more I played. People are mixed on the beam ammo system but I felt it helped encourage different ways of tackling problems, much like Breath Of The Wild's breakable weapons (without it you'd just have the Light Beam on all the time in Dark Aether and vice versa, and hello, Annihilator Beam). They put a nice twist on the local race having had a tough time by NOT making them extinct upon your arrival, and the Luminoth just being different from the Chozo made for far more unique decor and environments than we'd seen in Metroid up until that point. Not a single place has lava or anything ressembling it! I hope we see more of the Luminoth in the future, they're one of the precious few things in Metroid not too dead to do so.

To be completely honest, Dark Samus didn't make much of an impression on me at first. I of course hadn't 100 percented the first game so to me she was just kinda... there. It wasn't until she revived for the first time and emitted that oh-so memorable laugh that I really started to take notice of her. I most vividly remember the look of pure horror on Samus's face upon defeating Dark Samus for the (then) last time. I remember little old me semi-jokingly chalking it up to Samus being afraid this is what she actually looked like inside her suit now, but now I see it can be a lot things going through Samus's head: "Why does this thing look so much like me? Why is it still coming after me? Why is it still alive!?"
Actually, I beat the Boost Guardian without much trouble. I had the guide book, so I'd collected all the Energy Tanks up to that point, and I didn't find the fight two challenging, despite being like 8 or 9 when I did it. It's just that at some point in Torvus Bog, before or after the underwater part, I just stopped playing. Not sure why.

The Luminoth are one of my favorite things about the game, hence my old NNID, Luminoth Prime. They're such a cool race in terms of design, history, and culture, and like you said, they aren't dead. They also help to give the game more of an active plot, with Samus fighting back the Ing from conquering the planet, rather than them being dead and Samus just fighting the Ing without any guidance or direct context. Which is how some people would prefer it, hence why Prime 2 and 3 aren't always looked upon fondly. Some people would like for every Metroid game for Samus to just be dropped on some random planet where there's no sapient life at all and just start blasting things with no substantial plot, and that anything like dialogue or other characters just ruin the experience. God forbid something mix up the formula a bit.

The interactions between Samus and Dark Samus in Echoes are really interesting. After their second fight, when Dark Samus is destabilizing and falls off the tower, Samus runs after her in a way that almost seems concerned. That and the interaction after the third fight, like you described, make their relationship really interesting. Samus seems to have a great deal of confusion when dealing with her, perhaps even some empathy. It's odd, and I don't know quite what to make of it.

Then in Prime 3, Dark Samus goes full evil overlord and starts killing a bunch of people, and thus there's no love lost between the two of them.

Prime 2 is definitely my favorite of the Trilogy. Sure, it has a ridiculously slow start, and the UI is also ridiculously obtuse, but the positives easily outweigh the negatives. More complex puzzles, consistent theming, and a truly brand new world are just a few positives that come to mind. It feels like Prime was Retro laying the foundation, while Echoes was them having much more freedom to do what they wanted. It's such a shame Nintendo didn't push the game much, if at all, although to be fair Nintendo was pretty much done with the Gamecube post 2003.
Yeah, I enjoy Prime 1 for its simplicity and being able to breeze through a 100% playthrough in less than 6 hours, but Prime 2's improvements to that foundationand originality are what really captivate me. The beam ammo system bothers me a little, but that's because literally every ammo system bothers me. I'm really weird about ammo in games. For example, in Fallout games, if I have over 1000 bullets of a type of ammo, dropping below 1000 is like dropping below 0 to me. If my counter drops from 999, then I might as well have nothing. In recent playthroughs of Prime 2, I've gotten better about not being afraid to use the beams and knowing how to replenish them efficiently (it's not that hard, really). Though once I complete my Hypermode playthrough of the game soon, I'll try a playthrough with an infinite ammo code and have some fun.
I just want to say, despite having nothing to do with the character, the Brinstar Depths theme fits Dark Samus really well, exceptionally well.

I'm glad we got to hear more of the remix in her reveal, her reveal kicks the theme off when ends in the sample
That remix is what tipped me off immediately during the reveal. I'd listened to it about half a dozen times already, so after a second I began to lose my mind and think "METROID," knowing what that meant. Then a second later, I truly began to lose my mind.
 

meleebrawler

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The Luminoth are one of my favorite things about the game, hence my old NNID, Luminoth Prime. They're such a cool race in terms of design, history, and culture, and like you said, they aren't dead. They also help to give the game more of an active plot, with Samus fighting back the Ing from conquering the planet, rather than them being dead and Samus just fighting the Ing without any guidance or direct context. Which is how some people would prefer it, hence why Prime 2 and 3 aren't always looked upon fondly. Some people would like for every Metroid game for Samus to just be dropped on some random planet where there's no sapient life at all and just start blasting things with no substantial plot, and that anything like dialogue or other characters just ruin the experience. God forbid something mix up the formula a bit.

The interactions between Samus and Dark Samus in Echoes are really interesting. After their second fight, when Dark Samus is destabilizing and falls off the tower, Samus runs after her in a way that almost seems concerned. That and the interaction after the third fight, like you described, make their relationship really interesting. Samus seems to have a great deal of confusion when dealing with her, perhaps even some empathy. It's odd, and I don't know quite what to make of it.

Then in Prime 3, Dark Samus goes full evil overlord and starts killing a bunch of people, and thus there's no love lost between the two of them.
I find that Prime 3 achieves isolation in a different way than most other Metroids do, via it's trademark corruption and the hunters introduced. The latter seems counterintuitive until you see what's happened to them because of the Phazon within them, and they all serve as stark reminders the same could easily happen to Samus. Her reactions to each one's death is well thought out in how it enhances the feeling of helplessness; the first one with Rundas has her too shocked to do anything, second one with Ghor has her try to stop Dark Samus from taking him but in vain, and by the third time she knows that there's no hope left for the poor souls. Until the discovery of Phaaze as the source of Phazon, there was absolutely nothing that could be done about Samus's growing corruption. No one can help her with it, only she has the power to end it by killing Dark Samus (although I always found it curious that the Federation doesn't press Samus for more details about her considering their ressemblances).

About that tower scene, I personally felt it was more Samus not wanting Dark Samus to get away. She didn't seem all that bothered by her first "death", so I doubt she feels anything ressembling compassion for her. She knows firsthand how dangerous Phazon and anything mutated by it is. In the last scene she's terrified because she has no escape AND no more Phazon to blast Dark Samus with AND Dark Aether is collapsing AND Dark Samus is STILL coming at her, with no signs of destabilizing until she gets close to the Light Suit.
 
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Diem

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I find that Prime 3 achieves isolation in a different way than most other Metroids do, via it's trademark corruption and the hunters introduced. The latter seems counterintuitive until you see what's happened to them because of the Phazon within them, and they all serve as stark reminders the same could easily happen to Samus. Her reactions to each one's death is well thought out in how it enhances the feeling of helplessness; the first one with Rundas has her too shocked to do anything, second one with Ghor has her try to stop Dark Samus from taking him but in vain, and by the third time she knows that there's no hope left for the poor souls. Until the discovery of Phaaze as the source of Phazon, there was absolutely nothing that could be done about Samus's growing corruption. No one can help her with it, only she has the power to end it by killing Dark Samus (although I always found it curious that the Federation doesn't press Samus for more details about her considering their ressemblances).

About that tower scene, I personally felt it was more Samus not wanting Dark Samus to get away. She didn't seem all that bothered by her first "death", so I doubt she feels anything ressembling compassion for her. She knows firsthand how dangerous Phazon and anything mutated by it is. In the last scene she's terrified because she has no escape AND no more Phazon to blast Dark Samus with AND Dark Aether is collapsing AND Dark Samus is STILL coming at her, with no signs of destabilizing until she gets close to the Light Suit.
That's a really good observation. The other hunters serve as a reflection of Samus's own mortality, and how her clock is ticking due to the Phazon corruption, but there's nothing she can really do to stop it immediately. And after all, the Hypermode death cinematic has her turn into another Dark Samus, showing just how dire it is. Perhaps this is what the super lazy boxart was getting at, with Samus having a dark (that is, just the same model but dimmer) reflection behind her. If only they could've had the same creativity they had with Metroid Prime 2's boxart, then that dimension of the story would be much more enhanced.

As for why the Federation doesn't inquire about Dark Samus, I presume it's because Samus already explained everything she saw and knew after Metroid Prime 2 when she gave her report of her mission on Aether to the Federation. So they know as much as there is to know, and there's no point in further interrogation. Retro's Federation is the noble and effective kind that respects and trusts Samus, not the Weyland-Yutani ripoff in Sakamoto's games that treats her as a threat.

I also like your idea of Samus's reactions to Dark Samus a bit more. It's not a sense of compassion, then, but Samus being "OMG WTF BBQ" about this doppelganger of her that's super powerful and seemingly immortal. Samus has seen some **** and is a hardened bounty hunter, but I imagine she's never encountered anything remotely close to this. If there's one thing to freak her out, Dark Samus would be it.
 

meleebrawler

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As for why the Federation doesn't inquire about Dark Samus, I presume it's because Samus already explained everything she saw and knew after Metroid Prime 2 when she gave her report of her mission on Aether to the Federation. So they know as much as there is to know, and there's no point in further interrogation. Retro's Federation is the noble and effective kind that respects and trusts Samus, not the Weyland-Yutani ripoff in Sakamoto's games that treats her as a threat.
Well, there's no reason you can't have both kinds of Federation in any given game. Most of them imply it's only certain parts of it that are shady, and their interest in Metroids is more along the lines of their practical applications rather than use as biological weapons (only the rogue faction in Other M displayed that interest). Fusion's ending, I feel, is hopeful enough that there's enough good people in Federation that she'll be vindicated for what she did on the B.S.L, even if there's also some bitterness in the trust between the two being shaken.

The reason we see more of the bad parts of the Federation in the later chronological entries probably has to do with a lack of Pirates threatening to steal and use Metroids and other tools against them. Even those dubious members likely agreed it was better to destroy them entirely rather than risk Pirates having them.
 

meleebrawler

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Confirmed as "floatier" than Samus in today's update
Could be a pro or detriment. On-contact bombs should at least assuage some of the juggling.
As a side note, they're opting for "it" over "her", which is interesting.
That could just mean her animations involve floating where Samus doesn't. We've seen a clip of the two falling at the same speed, and Sakurai is not really known to use Smash terminology the way we do.
 

Diem

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Until we have the game in our hands, there's no telling what the differences are. Even with gameplay footage, that stuff is all liable to be changed by release, especially little tweaks to something like a character's weight. As far as I'm concerned, no Echo Fighter has ever had their weight properties changed, because that's one of the most important elements of a character's balance, and Echo Fighters are supposed to be easy to make and balance alongside their template character. But we don't really know, because Smash Ultimate Echo Fighters are a different caliber compared to Dark Pit and Lucina, who were last-minute additions that are basically alt costumes, as opposed to Dark Samus, Daisy, Chrom, and Richter, who were all planned from the get-go and have much more work put into them.

A lot of conceptions about Echo Fighters were shattered in last week's Direct. We thought they had to have basically the same animations, but Dark Samus disproved that hard. We thought they had to have the same exact moves, but Chrom cleared that up. Some people thought that newcomers and third parties wouldn't have Echo Fighters, but Richter surprised everyone.

Echo Fighter doesn't seem to be as hard of a term as we were led to believe. It seems to be a looser definition of characters who are between clones and alt costumes, but their complexity can vary. There's probably still two or three more Echo Fighters left to be revealed, so I'm sure in a couple of months our conceptions will be changed once again.

So it's possible that Dark Samus will be floatier than Samus, but we can't know for sure. I'm going to spend a lot of time analyzing this stuff on December 7, that's all I know.

Well, there's no reason you can't have both kinds of Federation in any given game. Most of them imply it's only certain parts of it that are shady, and their interest in Metroids is more along the lines of their practical applications rather than use as biological weapons (only the rogue faction in Other M displayed that interest). Fusion's ending, I feel, is hopeful enough that there's enough good people in Federation that she'll be vindicated for what she did on the B.S.L, even if there's also some bitterness in the trust between the two being shaken.

The reason we see more of the bad parts of the Federation in the later chronological entries probably has to do with a lack of Pirates threatening to steal and use Metroids and other tools against them. Even those dubious members likely agreed it was better to destroy them entirely rather than risk Pirates having them.
It's totally possible that there's two sides to the Federation, and that's the cause of that discrepancy. That would actually be better writing, to have there naturally be good and bad about such a large organization, as having them just be one or the other would be rather shallow and one-dimensional.

The problem is just that, so far, it hasn't been handled well. That's because Retro out in Texas did their own thing, and Sakamoto over in Japan does his own thing. Retro's version makes more sense in-universe, since Samus is a valuable ally to the Federation and it would make sense that they respect her for all she's done for them. Sakamoto's version is more or less a ripoff of ideas from Alien, the franchise that initially inspired much of Metroid. Except now there's no reason to continue borrowing from Alien because Metroid has grown into its own thing and should be able to use its own ideas.

Other M states that, despite taking place after Super Metroid, which is after the Prime series, it's Samus's first mission with the Federation on her own. This led some people to believe that the Prime games weren't canon, but in truth it's just a continuity error because Sakamoto has his own vision for Metroid and Samus, and it's not what we get in the Prime games, despite the Prime games being most people's favorite interpretation of things. This illustrates that the discrepancy in the Federation's representation has more to do with the different developers ignoring the other games and less about these things being planned intelligently. Sakamoto wasn't thinking at all about Admiral Dane when he was writing Other M. Thankfully Other M has been widely acknowledged as being a mess and contrary to almost all established depictions of Samus and the universe, and Samus Returns and Metroid Prime 4 are putting the series back on the right track.

I haven't fully played through Fusion yet, though I plan to do so soon, but it seems like it leaves the series in a bad place story-wise. Not sure how well the story of the next chronological game would be if Other M is any indication of how a larger "The Federation is shady and evil and out to get Samus" story were to be the focus. It could be executed well, but it would require a great deal of craft that most Nintendo games in general don't bother with. They'd need people who really know what they're doing to carry the Metroid franchise forward.
 

DungeonMaster

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That could just mean her animations involve floating where Samus doesn't. We've seen a clip of the two falling at the same speed, and Sakurai is not really known to use Smash terminology the way we do.
Actually the clip you're referencing proves that Dark Samus does NOT fall at the same speed as Samus. If you go frame by frame you get the following:

ClipConfirms.png
 

Diem

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That's most likely just Dark Samus's unique landing animation. If you watch frame-by-frame, both their landing animations finish at the same time. Dark Samus's is just fancier and takes longer to uncurl.
 

Smash Lampjaw

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She's a very real candidate to become my surprise main if they change her just enough from Samus to work better for my playstyle. I'm very excited to see what they do.
 
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meleebrawler

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That's most likely just Dark Samus's unique landing animation. If you watch frame-by-frame, both their landing animations finish at the same time. Dark Samus's is just fancier and takes longer to uncurl.
More specifically it's their helpless landing animations. The only time Dark Samus somersaults in the air (as mentioned by the blog) is when using Screw Attack.
 

dimensionsword64

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I really like Dark Samus, but I'm not a fan of how Samus plays in Smash, so I do hope she feels different from regular Samus. Even if she doesn't, though, I'll still try to play her.
 

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I know that some people are using Chrom as an example of how echos can be more distinct than previously thought. But while he does prove that your moveset doesn't have to be 1:1 with your counterpart to be an echo, that still leaves characters like Young Link, Dr. Mario and Pichu who are in similar positions moveset-wise, and yet they are not considered echos. If it's not due to having a distinct move or two like previously thought, then that only leaves their attributes. Young Link and Pichu are lighter, smaller and faster moving, while Doc is slower than Mario. We've had no such evidence of any difference in those regards to the revealed echos thus far.
 

meleebrawler

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Now, now, she didn't kill Anthony, Admiral Dane, the Etecoons or the Dachoras.

Personally I always saw this meeting as Ridley still celebrating his inclusion and rubbing it in Samus's face, and just as she wonders if things could get any worse, Dark Samus approaches from behind and offers a Phazon beverage.
 

NintenRob

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Oh god I love it.

Samus has it REALLY rough in Smash now. Ridley and Dark Samus feel so out of place, because I like to think of Smash as like a superhero team of sorts. I can find work a rounds for other villains but it's very hard to imagine Samus ever allowing these two to join.


And I love it!!!
 

meleebrawler

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Oh god I love it.

Samus has it REALLY rough in Smash now. Ridley and Dark Samus feel so out of place, because I like to think of Smash as like a superhero team of sorts. I can find work a rounds for other villains but it's very hard to imagine Samus ever allowing these two to join.


And I love it!!!
To be fair, I'm not sure even a non-brainwashed Ridley would approve of Dark Samus. A mutual hatred of Samus is all they share, but I don't think he'd appreciate anything that remotely reminds him of her. And of course the whole brainwashing thing.

I just read over a piece of Elysian lore kind of related to this... it says the Pirates were pretty much sustained and kept alive by their Phazon corruption, more specifically Dark Samus's brand of corruption. Does that mean their bodies are clinically dead, and Dark Samus IS the one who technically killed the hunters? :dizzy:

Another lore piece from the Pirates that I missed for several years, mentions how Dark Samus seems utterly unconcerned with Samus's progress up to that point. Huh. Guess she shares more with Ganondorf than I thought.
 
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Diem

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Now, now, she didn't kill Anthony, Admiral Dane, the Etecoons or the Dachoras.

Personally I always saw this meeting as Ridley still celebrating his inclusion and rubbing it in Samus's face, and just as she wonders if things could get any worse, Dark Samus approaches from behind and offers a Phazon beverage.
I'd love to see that illustrated. Well, at least Samus's franchise is getting the respresentation it deserves, finally!

I know some people suggest Sylux and occasionally Rundas as characters, but they're just too minor at this point to justify (poor Rundas). After Metroid Prime 4, Sylux will likely be a much more prominent character, but right now people suggest him based on the promise that he'll be a big part of future games, not because he has been so far. Ridley and Dark Samus are the only two characters significant enough to rep the series alongside Samus.

Makes me think we'll get a weird Dixie Kong echo next Direct, if DK follows the same pattern Metroid did in going from two to four characters.

Oh god I love it.

Samus has it REALLY rough in Smash now. Ridley and Dark Samus feel so out of place, because I like to think of Smash as like a superhero team of sorts. I can find work a rounds for other villains but it's very hard to imagine Samus ever allowing these two to join.

And I love it!!!
Metroid has some of the most hardcore Nintendo villains. Not that there aren't others in other franchises (Dimentio in Super Paper Mario is twisted especially for a Mario villain), but since Metroid is a much darker franchise, there's no such thing as a lighthearted villain.

That said, if there ever was a story mode like SSE in which everyone had to band up, like how Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf agreed to work together against Tabuu, I'd be really curious to see how Samus and Ridley would put their differences aside.

To be fair, I'm not sure even a non-brainwashed Ridley would approve of Dark Samus. A mutual hatred of Samus is all they share, but I don't think he'd appreciate anything that remotely reminds him of her. And of course the whole brainwashing thing.

I just read over a piece of Elysian lore kind of related to this... it says the Pirates were pretty much sustained and kept alive by their Phazon corruption, more specifically Dark Samus's brand of corruption. Does that mean their bodies are clinically dead, and Dark Samus IS the one who technically killed the hunters? :dizzy:

Another lore piece from the Pirates that I missed for several years, mentions how Dark Samus seems utterly unconcerned with Samus's progress up to that point. Huh. Guess she shares more with Ganondorf than I thought.
Ridley and Dark Samus would probably get along without the brainwashing. Heck, in Metroid Prime 2, Pirate Logs say that the Pirates on Aether were willing to trade Phazon for an alliance with Dark Samus to take down regular Samus. Obviously, Dark Samus wasn't interested in negotiations.

Alternatively, Ridley could be just as freaked out by the brainwashing thing as anybody, which would be an interesting thing to see.

As for the finer details of Phazon corruption, I finally started my MP3 playthrough recently, and I'm almost through Bryyo. I'm pretty sure that their bodies are not clinically dead, because then Rundas getting impaled after you defeat him wouldn't mean anything. Also, Ghor and Gandrayda both retain their personalities and consciousness, so they're definitely alive and not possessed by Dark Samus, just brainwashed/influenced. Same goes for the Space Pirates, otherwise they wouldn't be writing logs. I think it's more so describing the Phazon infection as being symbiotic rather than parasitic, since it's officiated by Dark Samus with the intent to enhance and control the Pirates. As opposed to the Phazon energy and radiation just killing them, like it does when Phazon is just loose in the environment.

Yeah, Dark Samus, despite having an obvious rivalry with Samus, doesn't seem all that interested in her. They only ever encounter each other by chance in Metroid Prime 2, crossing paths as Dark Samus is just looking for Phazon. And despite getting beaten by Samus consistently, Dark Samus doesn't seem phased by it. Instead, she seems to be consistently cocky, laughing at Samus and trapping the two of them so that neither of them can escape. She's certainly never lacking in self-confidence. Hard to blame her when she can singlehandedly brainwash an entire race, take control of some of the galaxy's greatest warriors, and begin conquering the galaxy by spreading Phazon across entire planets.
 

Aetheri

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Metroid has some of the most hardcore Nintendo villains. Not that there aren't others in other franchises (Dimentio in Super Paper Mario is twisted especially for a Mario villain), but since Metroid is a much darker franchise, there's no such thing as a lighthearted villain.

That said, if there ever was a story mode like SSE in which everyone had to band up, like how Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf agreed to work together against Tabuu, I'd be really curious to see how Samus and Ridley would put their differences aside.
I'm actually somewhat doubtful Dark Samus will play a role in this new story mode. Reason being is she's an echo fighter, ie an easy to make clone who was likely only added into the roster very late in development and was likely not planned to be in the game by the time the plan for the story mode was fleshed out in a significant way.

Same can be said for Chrom and Daisy as well. Dark Pit and Lucina are veterans and were likely implemented early enough to be part of the plan and Richter based on the fact that he's the only echo fighter introduced with a flashy CGI trailer and the way they described Simon and Richter being echos of eachother, Richter may have also been planned early on.

But Dark Samus, Chrom and Daisy; plus whoever else will be added later (Shadow, Dixie, Impa, etc) will likely not be part of the story mode either...


That said we still don't really know what this story mode will entail or how it will function compared to both SSE and Melee's Adventure mode.
 
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