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Social Disciples of Dark Samus

Diem

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Looks like the character threads are safe, so I'll lurk around here occasionally still.

I've yet to find any difference between Samus and Dark Samus. Just tested all their moves and the damage is identical.
Saw you over in the Daisy thread, and wanted to ask you to check out Dark Samus as well, but didn't want to bug you. But now that you're here, great!

Are their physics and movement the same? That's the main thing that's been disputed for months, since there's no conclusive evidence, and Nintendo's wording has been ambiguous. We're pretty sure there is no difference, but someone on SSBWiki has it listed that Dark Samus is definitely "floatier," but I haven't seen or heard of any evidence.
 

Crystanium

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Looks like the character threads are safe, so I'll lurk around here occasionally still.


Saw you over in the Daisy thread, and wanted to ask you to check out Dark Samus as well, but didn't want to bug you. But now that you're here, great!

Are their physics and movement the same? That's the main thing that's been disputed for months, since there's no conclusive evidence, and Nintendo's wording has been ambiguous. We're pretty sure there is no difference, but someone on SSBWiki has it listed that Dark Samus is definitely "floatier," but I haven't seen or heard of any evidence.
"Dark Samus joins the battle as Samus's echo fighter. With floatier movement, she's a little different from Samus--and she doesn't roll when dodging or jumping. If you look closely, you can see that her bombs and missiles look a little different, too." Dark Samus - Super Smash Blog
 

Diem

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"Dark Samus joins the battle as Samus's echo fighter. With floatier movement, she's a little different from Samus--and she doesn't roll when dodging or jumping. If you look closely, you can see that her bombs and missiles look a little different, too." Dark Samus - Super Smash Blog
Like I said, that's ambiguously worded. Is the "movement" her actual stats, as in her horizontal air mobility or something, or is it just describing her animations that aren't statistically different? Dark Samus is definitely floaty, but so is Samus in this game.

One example that throws a wrench in things is how after Dark Samus and Chrom's reveal in the Direct, we see a clip of Samus and Dark Samus falling onto the stage, and they're both falling at the same speed. If Dark Samus was generally meant to be floatier, you'd think she'd fall slower.

All it would take is to have Samus and Dark Samus jump around in a game for a minute without any distractions to determine the answer, but no one's had the opportunity or the care to do so yet.
 
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Chibi-Chan

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Looks like the character threads are safe, so I'll lurk around here occasionally still.


Saw you over in the Daisy thread, and wanted to ask you to check out Dark Samus as well, but didn't want to bug you. But now that you're here, great!

Are their physics and movement the same? That's the main thing that's been disputed for months, since there's no conclusive evidence, and Nintendo's wording has been ambiguous. We're pretty sure there is no difference, but someone on SSBWiki has it listed that Dark Samus is definitely "floatier," but I haven't seen or heard of any evidence.
If one is floatier that means they die quicker off the top. Let's test the KO percents...

Mewtwo upthrow KOs Samus at 152%, Tipper Fsmash at 84%.
Onto Dark Samus... 152% and 84%.

They have the exact same weight/gravity. Otherwise the KO percents wouldn't be identical.

EDIT: Dark Samus doesn't have a standing animation at all, but hovers over the air. That trailer trolled you guys. She "floats" cosmetically.
 
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Diem

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If one is floatier that means they die quicker off the top. Let's test the KO percents...

Mewtwo upthrow KOs Samus at 152%, Tipper Fsmash at 84%.
Onto Dark Samus... 152% and 84%.

They have the exact same weight/gravity. Otherwise the KO percents wouldn't be identical.

EDIT: Dark Samus doesn't have a standing animation at all, but hovers over the air. That trailer trolled you guys. She "floats" cosmetically.
Not surprising. Like I said above, the one brief clip in the Direct showed them falling at the same speed, so that's been what I've expected for a while.

Yeah, we somewhat concluded 2-3 months ago that Dark Samus's "floatiness" was just in the animations, not the stats. But we didn't have any conclusive footage or information, since footage has been so slim.

The only thing left in terms of movement/physics I can think of is horizontal mobility. Is there any difference there, moving from left to right in the air? Is one more capable of changing directions than the other? That kind of stuff. It's probably going to be the same, but it's possible.

Otherwise, we do know that many of Samus's attacks that have a fire effect have an electric effect for Dark Samus, so if there's no other difference in the attacks or the movement, then that appears to be the only difference.
 

Chibi-Chan

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Not surprising. Like I said above, the one brief clip in the Direct showed them falling at the same speed, so that's been what I've expected for a while.

Yeah, we somewhat concluded 2-3 months ago that Dark Samus's "floatiness" was just in the animations, not the stats. But we didn't have any conclusive footage or information, since footage has been so slim.

The only thing left in terms of movement/physics I can think of is horizontal mobility. Is there any difference there, moving from left to right in the air? Is one more capable of changing directions than the other? That kind of stuff. It's probably going to be the same, but it's possible.

Otherwise, we do know that many of Samus's attacks that have a fire effect have an electric effect for Dark Samus, so if there's no other difference in the attacks or the movement, then that appears to be the only difference.
Maybe the different element is relevant vs Pokemon Trainer :p
It's hard to test their movement speed and turning since they have such different animation. Seems to me they're gonna end up identical just like Richter/Simon.

Jump distance is the same, 7 stage units horizontal. 3 upwards with full-hop. Double jump seems the same but hard to notice because Dark Samus doesn't curl into a ball. Their fox-trot is also identical distance. Roll is also 4 stage units distance for both.

Sorry guys, they appear to be pretty much identical.
 
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Izanagi97

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Guess that means the only things that could be considered major differences are
  • Slightly faster back roll
  • Slightly slower forward roll
  • All fire based attacks (except Bombs and Missles) do electric damage (which basically means 1.5x longer freeze frames and 1 frame more hitstun assuming Electric attacks still do that like in 4)
 

Diem

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Maybe the different element is relevant vs Pokemon Trainer :p
It's hard to test their movement speed and turning since they have such different animation. Seems to me they're gonna end up identical just like Richter/Simon.

Jump distance is the same, 7 stage units horizontal. 3 upwards with full-hop. Double jump seems the same but hard to notice because Dark Samus doesn't curl into a ball. Their fox-trot is also identical distance. Roll is also 4 stage units distance for both.

Sorry guys, they appear to be pretty much identical.
Pokémon Trainer no longer has the type weaknesses, but the effect instead grants an extra 50% hitstun to attacks, which could mean two things. It could mean that Dark Samus can have better combos due to the increased stun, but I also heard that the effect somehow makes it easier to DI out of those moves, so I don't know whether that's a buff or not.

All right, thank you very much for taking the time to test this stuff out.

I'm not too bothered that they're identical. I was desperate enough to settle for just an alt costume, like with Dark Meta Knight and Dark Link, but the fact that we got an Echo Fighter is even better. Shadow didn't even get in as an Echo Fighter, so that's crazy. And even if Dark Samus doesn't have as many gameplay distinctions as some other Echo Fighters, her animation work is better than any other Echo Fighter, which I think is even better, personally.

A move doing different damage or having slightly different properties isn't as important to me as having the character look and feel right. It's why, despite loving Metroid, I haven't really played Samus that much. I haven't liked her designs in the games, which, in addition to her being poorly balanced, hasn't made her appealing. But Dark Samus's design and animations are so good in Ultimate that even people who have never seen the character before think she's awesome and want to play her.

However, Echo Fighters are generally meant to be similar to their counterparts because then they can be balanced in unison, rather than balanced separately and requiring more work. Since both Samus and Dark Samus are seemingly poor in terms of competitive viability, their similarities may be a good thing, as it means balance updates can tackle them both at once, rather than have both of them be separate and one maybe getting more service than the other.

Perhaps they'll make Dark Samus different in future updates, too. I'm not holding my breath, but it's a possibility.

Either way, can't wait for December 7. I've been waiting for this for over 11 years, so there's not much that can really make me upset or disappointed at this point.

Before then, though, I'm going to try and put out a video about why I'm so excited for Dark Samus. I'm doing my best to make it well-written and well-edited, so I'm looking forward to getting it done and uploaded.
 

Aetheri

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While it is somewhat disappointing that she has very little in terms of differences, the fact that most of her animations are very different than Samus is quite the distinction in and of itself since most other Echo fighters only have a few attacks with slightly different animations.

Ken seems to be the only one who's more distinct in this regard since a lot of his attacks where changed outright, even still a lot of his movement and such is still the same as Ryu's. And Chrom just has his Up+B being completely different (even though it's basically Ike's Up+B) than Roy's.

That's actually another point considering her different animations will alter her hitbox in comparison to Samus's, though not by much. Her roll, though slightly faster, may be less safe since Samus is a smaller target during it's duration.
 

ChronoBound

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Apparently, there appears to be no differences between Richter and Simon either.

There seems to be multiple flavors of echoes:

1. Only a few moves have different properties (around three): Dark Pit and Daisy

2. The original characters gimmick is removed: Lucina and Chrom (Chrom also has a different recovery and Final Smash)

3. The characters has no property differences but their animations are different (Richter and especially Dark Samus)

4. Ken (Ken is basically more like a Melee style clone than an echo).

Its possible Richter and Dark Samus have some property differences we do not know about though.

Dark Samus seems to have gotten a lot of love with her animations (being the only echo with unique dash, jumping, and dodging/rolling animations), but it might have come at the cost of having around three moves being different (as is the case with Dark Pit and Daisy).

I am curious. Which would people here rather have had. The unique animations or a few moves with different properties?
 
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Crystanium

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Guess that means the only things that could be considered major differences are
  • Slightly faster back roll
  • Slightly slower forward roll
  • All fire based attacks (except Bombs and Missles) do electric damage (which basically means 1.5x longer freeze frames and 1 frame more hitstun assuming Electric attacks still do that like in 4)
Rolls should be the same amount of frames with the only difference being visuals. I've been saying this since Dark Samus' reveal.
 

IsmaR

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Actual differences were found on specific moves. All credit goes to @Kayjay_EU

Up Smash (Up Smash initial start hits lower for Dark Samus. Example shows Samus whiffs every time on Diddy):
https://gfycat.com/BouncySizzlingBellsnake
https://gfycat.com/FastCoolHamster


N-air (Dark Samus has slight difference in hurt box so it's inconclusive, but seemingly her N-air doesn't reach as far):
https://gfycat.com/IgnorantDistinctGalapagosdove
https://gfycat.com/MadeupCarelessAvocet


Dash dancing (Dark Samus' is much shorter and quicker/consistent):
https://gfycat.com/ImpressiveLimpingKittiwake
https://gfycat.com/NaiveSeriousLeafcutterant


Visual differences (Dark Samus has wider hurt boxes during jumps, and slightly faster backward rolls as a tradeoff)

Backroll FAF40 (Invulnerability 5-20)
Forward roll FAF35 (Invulnerability 4-18)
Spotdodge FAF27 (Invulnerability 3-17)
Dark Samus:
Backroll FAF37 (Invulnerability 5-20)
Forward roll FAF32 (Invulnerability 4-18)
Spotdodge FAF27 (Invulnerability 3-17)


Additionally, Dark Samus has electric effects vs regular Samus having fire effects on down tilt, f-air, forward smash and up smash.
 

meleebrawler

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Actual differences were found on specific moves. All credit goes to @Kayjay_EU

Up Smash (Up Smash initial start hits lower for Dark Samus. Example shows Samus whiffs every time on Diddy):
https://gfycat.com/BouncySizzlingBellsnake
https://gfycat.com/FastCoolHamster


N-air (Dark Samus has slight difference in hurt box so it's inconclusive, but seemingly her N-air doesn't reach as far):
https://gfycat.com/IgnorantDistinctGalapagosdove
https://gfycat.com/MadeupCarelessAvocet


Dash dancing (Dark Samus' is much shorter and quicker/consistent):
https://gfycat.com/ImpressiveLimpingKittiwake
https://gfycat.com/NaiveSeriousLeafcutterant


Visual differences (Dark Samus has wider hurt boxes during jumps, and slightly faster backward rolls as a tradeoff)



Additionally, Dark Samus has electric effects vs regular Samus having fire effects on f-air, forward smash and up smash.
Also I noticed that weird Roy/Yoshi quirk in 4 where landing with some aerials causes Dark Samus to briefly assume Samus's idle stance before going back to her own.
 

Chibi-Chan

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Well, I wasn't gonna figure those tiny things out from my tests then! Doubt it's gonna make a difference in picking the character tbh. At least now Samus mains can swap freely back and forth to their tastes... That's probably good enough I guess.

Daisy is also remarkably similar to Peach, with the differences being very tiny and mostly irrelevant as well. Still, she's pretty popular.
 

Diem

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Apparently, there appears to be no differences between Richter and Simon either.

There seems to be multiple flavors of echoes:

1. Only a few moves have different properties (around three): Dark Pit and Daisy

2. The original characters gimmick is removed: Lucina and Chrom (Chrom also has a different recovery and Final Smash)

3. The characters has no property differences but their animations are different (Richter and especially Dark Samus)

4. Ken (Ken is basically more like a Melee style clone than an echo).

Its possible Richter and Dark Samus have some property differences we do not know about though.

Dark Samus seems to have gotten a lot of love with her animations (being the only echo with unique dash, jumping, and dodging/rolling animations), but it might have come at the cost of having around three moves being different (as is the case with Dark Pit and Daisy).

I am curious. Which would people here rather have had. The unique animations or a few moves with different properties?
Unique animations, for sure.

What always comes to my mind is the Dark Samus mod in Brawl, which has a unique moveset, but the model and animations look awful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KG2L-3cZLsY

It's still impressive for how much work had to have gone into modding all those moves and animations, but can I imagine myself playing that for hundreds of hours? No, because it looks ugly as bawls. Compared to every other character on the screen, it looks gross. Not only that, but the animation and moves look stiff and janky, and thus not fun or smooth to play. Of course, an official version of the character wouldn't look like that even if it had unique moves, but the point is that looks and animations are very important. Give me something that's a copy of Samus but smooth and pleasing to the eye over something that's unique but stiff and ugly.

Back in the older Dark Samus thread in July or so, I was debating with people about whether Dark Samus would even be possible as an Echo Fighter, given how she'd need to be animated differently, particularly to float. Because at the time, all we had were Dark Pit, Lucina, and Daisy, all of whom have very similar or identical animations to their counterparts, so imagining Dark Samus with such drastic animation differences seemed a little farfetched. I made the argument that, at the very least, they could copy some of the work from Mewtwo/Cloud, who float in their dash animation.

And then we got Dark Samus with an almost completely new set of distinct animations, even if all the moves are the same. I don't think anyone was expecting her to look as good as she does, and it did win a lot of people over who would've otherwise bemoaned that she was an EF instead of a full character, and even a lot of people who don't care about the character as much, if at all.

Actual differences were found on specific moves. All credit goes to @Kayjay_EU

Up Smash (Up Smash initial start hits lower for Dark Samus. Example shows Samus whiffs every time on Diddy):
https://gfycat.com/BouncySizzlingBellsnake
https://gfycat.com/FastCoolHamster


N-air (Dark Samus has slight difference in hurt box so it's inconclusive, but seemingly her N-air doesn't reach as far):
https://gfycat.com/IgnorantDistinctGalapagosdove
https://gfycat.com/MadeupCarelessAvocet


Dash dancing (Dark Samus' is much shorter and quicker/consistent):
https://gfycat.com/ImpressiveLimpingKittiwake
https://gfycat.com/NaiveSeriousLeafcutterant


Visual differences (Dark Samus has wider hurt boxes during jumps, and slightly faster backward rolls as a tradeoff)



Additionally, Dark Samus has electric effects vs regular Samus having fire effects on down tilt, f-air, forward smash and up smash.
Ah, thank you. I knew the differences would probably be super technical stuff like this, but there's no way I would've been able know to look and test for that.

I wonder if Samus's up-smash problem is a bug? Seems odd that Dark Samus's works and Samus's whiffs.

Didn't consider Dark Samus's hurtboxes when jumping, since she doesn't somersault like Samus does. That's a good thing to note.

How's the backwards roll slightly faster? Does the animation end sooner?

Well, I wasn't gonna figure those tiny things out from my tests then! Doubt it's gonna make a difference in picking the character tbh. At least now Samus mains can swap freely back and forth to their tastes... That's probably good enough I guess.

Daisy is also remarkably similar to Peach, with the differences being very tiny and mostly irrelevant as well. Still, she's pretty popular.
Well, Echo Fighters are meant to just be copies of other fighters that are easier to make in order to get less-popular characters into the game for those that want them. Daisy is pretty popular, but not popular or unique enough to get a full moveset, so she's perfect as an Echo Fighter. Dark Samus is also not very popular, only appearing in two old games, neither of which sold over 2 million, so as an Echo Fighter she can be given a chance.

My only worry is that I'm not a huge fan of Samus's moveset, so Dark Samus sharing it may or may not be fun. I think I may enjoy the changes in Ultimate, though, especially with her Charge Shot and Missiles, so I think it'll be fine. But I may end up having more fun playing Ridley, though Dark Samus will always be my main.

They other important detail here being electric effects for Dark Samus means she deals more shieldstun, and has slightly more hitlag.

https://gfycat.com/RecentSnarlingHornedtoad
Hm, so is that a good thing or a bad thing? Obviously Dark Samus has longer lag, but does the shielding opponent also have more lag (hard to tell from the gif)? I suppose that may have some application in singles, but it may be dangerous in doubles.
 

Aetheri

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Ummm....apparently Dark Samus can wavedash. At least she has the best WD according to the video description.
Not as abusable as in Melee but will definitely have some utility.

(unless it gets patched out)
 
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Exegguter

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Are their rolls really different? Some people say it’s just visuals, some say they really are. I don’t know what to believe lol
 

Aetheri

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For those interested...New Palutena's Guidances

Dark Samus at 1:38, pretty impressed with this one actually.
 

Xevious 1

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The new Palutena guidance's go really in depth on the Metroid and Zelda characters.
 

ChronoBound

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In the upcoming days I am going to post my comprehensive thoughts on the Ultimate roster. It is absolutely massive (21,000 words for the rough draft, so it might get trimmed or expanded a bit). Anyway, I am going to post what I wrote for Dark Samus's analysis. Please tell me what you think.

Dark Samus:

Dark Samus can be compared to two characters already on this roster, K. Rool and Chrom. Like K. Rool, her last appearance in her own franchise was all the way back in 2007, and like Chrom, her best chances of ever getting in seemed to have been with a prior Smash Bros. game (jn Dark Samus’s case, it was with Brawl). With Dark Samus, it is interesting to note that she is the only newcomer that made their first appearance during the 2000’s (of Ultimate’s newcomers four made their debut in the 1980’s, four in the 2010’s, two in the 1990’s, and Dark Samus being the single one from the 2000’s). She was the main villain to the Metroid Prime trilogy (she was Metroid Prime before it “reincarnated” as Dark Samus).

Although Metroid fans wanted Ridley, there were many that wanted Dark Samus. Prior to Zero Suit Samus’s confirmation, the idea of Metroid representation was Samus, Ridley, and Dark Samus. It was not just Ridley fans that recoiled with Zero Suit Samus getting in (since one of the reasons Sakurai said he put in ZSS was to further represent the Metroid series), but also Dark Samus fans whom had to contend with people who did not like the idea of Metroid only being represented with Samus’s. As with K. Rool and Diddy Kong, Dark Samus fans had to wait behind Ridley’s shadow during the pre-Brawl period to Ridley being considered a much more critical character to the franchise among Metroid fans (much like Diddy Kong was with DK fans). It is interesting to point out that requests for Dark Samus during the pre-Brawl period were on par with K. Rool’s even after K. Rool’s explosion in popularity after August. Metroid Prime 3 did a lot for Dark Samus’s standing among Metroid and Smash Bros. fans during the pre-Brawl period, and when Ridley was seeming like he might become “Bossley” many Metroid fans jumped on board the Dark Samus train. However, even with the inclusion of semi-clone newcomers with Brawl (Lucas, Wolf, and to an extent Toon Link), Dark Samus was not one of them. It seemed, as with many other characters from games prominent from that period (like Midna), she may have missed her chance of ever having getting in as a playable character.

Dark Samus continued to be popularly requested for Smash Bros. up until around 2011 when the Prime trilogy started to fade from recent memory. From that point on, Metroid fans all rallied very intensely around Ridley being desperate for the character that should have been confirmed with Brawl. Dark Samus continued to have a fanbase, but in comparison to other theoretical “fourth representative” for other franchises (Dixie Kong, Bandanna Dee, and Krystal), she definitely had far less requests at that points. Things looked very dire for Dark Samus after Metroid Other M’s release. There was also the fact unlike the rest of those characters, Dark Samus likely would never make another appearance in her own series ever again due to Dark Samus seeming like she died for good at the end of Prime 3 due to the source of all Phazon in the universe being destroyed at the end of Prime 3. Dark Samus fans believed that she very well could have missed the boat with Brawl. The expectation among Dark Samus fans was by this point that a semi-clone role is the best she could hope for and that would only be if Sakurai again had ruled out Ridley but still felt Metroid needed another playable character. Dark Samus had little of the passion behind her during pre-Smash 4 that she experienced during pre-Brawl. In April 2014, any hopes that they had were laid to rest, Dark Samus was confirmed as an Assist Trophy during the April 2014 Smash 4 Direct. It seemed as though Dark Samus now would never become a playable fighter seeing as the next game in the series would likely be in 2020 or 2021 when Prime 3 would be well over a decade old.

After the release of Smash 4, it was difficult to discern who had worse prospects going forward, Ridley (who was among the few characters to be handed a hard de-confirmation from Sakurai himself) or the increasingly irrelevant Dark Samus. Going into the ballot Metroid fans were heavily demoralized by how Smash 4 turned out. However, the seeds for Dark Samus’s debut in Smash Bros. actually began over a decade ago. I firmly believe had Metroid Prime 3 not been released a few months after Brawl’s release in Japan, that Sakurai would have overlooked the game entirely for content in Smash 4 (the only piece of Metroid Prime content in Smash 4 aside from music tracks was the trophy and Assist Trophy of Dark Samus). Dark Samus being included as an Assist Trophy in Smash 4 is likely what made Sakurai aware of the character’s existence to begin with. As with Chrom, I believe Dark Samus’s performance on the ballot was likely due to how a character was treated, in this case Ridley. It is possible that Metroid fans that became pessimistic on Ridley ever happening due to Sakurai’s own statements on the character that they voted for Dark Samus as a sort of consolation prize for themselves, hoping Metroid would at least have one of its villains. The thing is that this was likely a “silent” campaign as I (and other speculators) do not remember a push for Dark Samus on any Smash Bros. forums or social media during the ballot period.

Development for Ultimate likely having to be done two years earlier than it would otherwise and Sakurai’s decision to bring back every veteran ever likely made Ultimate poor in terms of newcomers. The lack of newcomers for Ultimate was likely the main factor that made Sakurai revisit the tactic he used when he was faced with a similar concern with Melee (a lack of newcomers), clone newcomers. Only Sakurai learned his lesson from Melee, and realized clones are more likely to be well-received if they are characters that are: 1. Popular within their own series. 2. A very obvious choice for a clone fighter (ie. Do not reprise Captain Ganondorf). It is very telling that of the five echo newcomers, that Dark Samus was able to make it among those five. Daisy, Chrom, and Ken are all characters that have at least major appearances in recent years (Daisy in various Mario spinoffs, Chrom in Fire Emblem Warriors, and Ken in Street Fighter V).

There were plenty of choices for other echo fighters that could have taken Dark Samus’s place. Impa, Funky Kong, Octoling, Shadow, and Jeanne are all very strong candidates for echo fighters. However, despite being absent from her own franchise for over a decade, and despite most of her fanbase seeming to have dissipated, just like in the Prime trilogy Dark Samus re-formed out of nowhere. This was not a case of like Ridley or K. Rool were there was a massive outpouring of support for years that made the character ended up being included. Dark Samus likely did well on the ballot (Sakurai said as much), but it was probably due to special circumstances that she did. In general, many stars had to align for her to finally be included as newcomer.

Dark Samus, just like her ingame counterpart, came back from the brink of death. She basically won the jackpot to a major lottery for getting in even as an echo fighter. There was absolutely no major demand for another Metroid newcomer after Ridley during the Smash 4 days (whereas with K. Rool fans there was the feeling that after K. Rool, Dixie Kong absolutely needed to get in too). Dark Samus making it in was yet another example of the impossible made possible with Ultimate. Dark Samus getting in was not through overwhelming fan demand, Sakurai wanting to promote a title at a particular point in time (see many of the Fire Emblem and Pokemon newcomers), Sakurai personally liking the character (as will be the case with Geno), or other arbitrary reasons (Sakurai literally said he added Dr. Mario as a clone because he really loved the remix made for the “fever” song in Melee. Dark Samus got very, very, very lucky to get in, and it absolutely had to hinge on a wide assortment of factors to happen in tangent with one another to happen. Its fortunate it did happen. As with the other echo fighters, Dark Samus is an absolutely important and/or popular character in her franchise. The Metroid Prime trilogy is among the best trilogies of all time in gaming, arguably the best one of all. Dark Samus defied all of the odds and joined the battle.
 

Aetheri

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In the upcoming days I am going to post my comprehensive thoughts on the Ultimate roster. It is absolutely massive (21,000 words for the rough draft, so it might get trimmed or expanded a bit). Anyway, I am going to post what I wrote for Dark Samus's analysis. Please tell me what you think.

Dark Samus:

Dark Samus can be compared to two characters already on this roster, K. Rool and Chrom. Like K. Rool, her last appearance in her own franchise was all the way back in 2007, and like Chrom, her best chances of ever getting in seemed to have been with a prior Smash Bros. game (jn Dark Samus’s case, it was with Brawl). With Dark Samus, it is interesting to note that she is the only newcomer that made their first appearance during the 2000’s (of Ultimate’s newcomers four made their debut in the 1980’s, four in the 2010’s, two in the 1990’s, and Dark Samus being the single one from the 2000’s). She was the main villain to the Metroid Prime trilogy (she was Metroid Prime before it “reincarnated” as Dark Samus).

Although Metroid fans wanted Ridley, there were many that wanted Dark Samus. Prior to Zero Suit Samus’s confirmation, the idea of Metroid representation was Samus, Ridley, and Dark Samus. It was not just Ridley fans that recoiled with Zero Suit Samus getting in (since one of the reasons Sakurai said he put in ZSS was to further represent the Metroid series), but also Dark Samus fans whom had to contend with people who did not like the idea of Metroid only being represented with Samus’s. As with K. Rool and Diddy Kong, Dark Samus fans had to wait behind Ridley’s shadow during the pre-Brawl period to Ridley being considered a much more critical character to the franchise among Metroid fans (much like Diddy Kong was with DK fans). It is interesting to point out that requests for Dark Samus during the pre-Brawl period were on par with K. Rool’s even after K. Rool’s explosion in popularity after August. Metroid Prime 3 did a lot for Dark Samus’s standing among Metroid and Smash Bros. fans during the pre-Brawl period, and when Ridley was seeming like he might become “Bossley” many Metroid fans jumped on board the Dark Samus train. However, even with the inclusion of semi-clone newcomers with Brawl (Lucas, Wolf, and to an extent Toon Link), Dark Samus was not one of them. It seemed, as with many other characters from games prominent from that period (like Midna), she may have missed her chance of ever having getting in as a playable character.

Dark Samus continued to be popularly requested for Smash Bros. up until around 2011 when the Prime trilogy started to fade from recent memory. From that point on, Metroid fans all rallied very intensely around Ridley being desperate for the character that should have been confirmed with Brawl. Dark Samus continued to have a fanbase, but in comparison to other theoretical “fourth representative” for other franchises (Dixie Kong, Bandanna Dee, and Krystal), she definitely had far less requests at that points. Things looked very dire for Dark Samus after Metroid Other M’s release. There was also the fact unlike the rest of those characters, Dark Samus likely would never make another appearance in her own series ever again due to Dark Samus seeming like she died for good at the end of Prime 3 due to the source of all Phazon in the universe being destroyed at the end of Prime 3. Dark Samus fans believed that she very well could have missed the boat with Brawl. The expectation among Dark Samus fans was by this point that a semi-clone role is the best she could hope for and that would only be if Sakurai again had ruled out Ridley but still felt Metroid needed another playable character. Dark Samus had little of the passion behind her during pre-Smash 4 that she experienced during pre-Brawl. In April 2014, any hopes that they had were laid to rest, Dark Samus was confirmed as an Assist Trophy during the April 2014 Smash 4 Direct. It seemed as though Dark Samus now would never become a playable fighter seeing as the next game in the series would likely be in 2020 or 2021 when Prime 3 would be well over a decade old.

After the release of Smash 4, it was difficult to discern who had worse prospects going forward, Ridley (who was among the few characters to be handed a hard de-confirmation from Sakurai himself) or the increasingly irrelevant Dark Samus. Going into the ballot Metroid fans were heavily demoralized by how Smash 4 turned out. However, the seeds for Dark Samus’s debut in Smash Bros. actually began over a decade ago. I firmly believe had Metroid Prime 3 not been released a few months after Brawl’s release in Japan, that Sakurai would have overlooked the game entirely for content in Smash 4 (the only piece of Metroid Prime content in Smash 4 aside from music tracks was the trophy and Assist Trophy of Dark Samus). Dark Samus being included as an Assist Trophy in Smash 4 is likely what made Sakurai aware of the character’s existence to begin with. As with Chrom, I believe Dark Samus’s performance on the ballot was likely due to how a character was treated, in this case Ridley. It is possible that Metroid fans that became pessimistic on Ridley ever happening due to Sakurai’s own statements on the character that they voted for Dark Samus as a sort of consolation prize for themselves, hoping Metroid would at least have one of its villains. The thing is that this was likely a “silent” campaign as I (and other speculators) do not remember a push for Dark Samus on any Smash Bros. forums or social media during the ballot period.

Development for Ultimate likely having to be done two years earlier than it would otherwise and Sakurai’s decision to bring back every veteran ever likely made Ultimate poor in terms of newcomers. The lack of newcomers for Ultimate was likely the main factor that made Sakurai revisit the tactic he used when he was faced with a similar concern with Melee (a lack of newcomers), clone newcomers. Only Sakurai learned his lesson from Melee, and realized clones are more likely to be well-received if they are characters that are: 1. Popular within their own series. 2. A very obvious choice for a clone fighter (ie. Do not reprise Captain Ganondorf). It is very telling that of the five echo newcomers, that Dark Samus was able to make it among those five. Daisy, Chrom, and Ken are all characters that have at least major appearances in recent years (Daisy in various Mario spinoffs, Chrom in Fire Emblem Warriors, and Ken in Street Fighter V).

There were plenty of choices for other echo fighters that could have taken Dark Samus’s place. Impa, Funky Kong, Octoling, Shadow, and Jeanne are all very strong candidates for echo fighters. However, despite being absent from her own franchise for over a decade, and despite most of her fanbase seeming to have dissipated, just like in the Prime trilogy Dark Samus re-formed out of nowhere. This was not a case of like Ridley or K. Rool were there was a massive outpouring of support for years that made the character ended up being included. Dark Samus likely did well on the ballot (Sakurai said as much), but it was probably due to special circumstances that she did. In general, many stars had to align for her to finally be included as newcomer.

Dark Samus, just like her ingame counterpart, came back from the brink of death. She basically won the jackpot to a major lottery for getting in even as an echo fighter. There was absolutely no major demand for another Metroid newcomer after Ridley during the Smash 4 days (whereas with K. Rool fans there was the feeling that after K. Rool, Dixie Kong absolutely needed to get in too). Dark Samus making it in was yet another example of the impossible made possible with Ultimate. Dark Samus getting in was not through overwhelming fan demand, Sakurai wanting to promote a title at a particular point in time (see many of the Fire Emblem and Pokemon newcomers), Sakurai personally liking the character (as will be the case with Geno), or other arbitrary reasons (Sakurai literally said he added Dr. Mario as a clone because he really loved the remix made for the “fever” song in Melee. Dark Samus got very, very, very lucky to get in, and it absolutely had to hinge on a wide assortment of factors to happen in tangent with one another to happen. Its fortunate it did happen. As with the other echo fighters, Dark Samus is an absolutely important and/or popular character in her franchise. The Metroid Prime trilogy is among the best trilogies of all time in gaming, arguably the best one of all. Dark Samus defied all of the odds and joined the battle.
A nice overview of Dark Samus's supposed history in Smash since the pre-Brawl days. It was always curious as to why she wasn't added in Brawl, especially since ZSS was added as a new Metroid character. Echoes was a fairly relevant game at the time with the highly anticipated Corruption on the way giving Dark Samus her second antagonistic role in the series. It seemed almost like a no-brainer at the time for Dark Samus to be added to the roster.

As a Dark Samus supporter through teh years it has been quite a bumpy ride. Getting just a simple trophy in Brawl and feeling even more deflated when her assist trophy was announced it did seem rather dire. I've campaigned for her to be added as DLC in Smash 4 despite her situation as an assist trophy, even owned the support thread for her in the Deconfirmed Characters group back then. Seeing her added here in Ultimate, even if only as an echo fighter, I felt an insane amount of gratification for sure.
 

BravadoMan_13

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It is still surreal that, after the events of Smash 4, we managed to get not one but two Metroid newcomers into the roster. It is a dream come true and it's fantastic to see more Prime content in Smash. Release week is here and I am so ready to play this game.

Mission accomplished
 

Drbaboon

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I always thought Sylux would make for a neat addition. I was never crazy about the guy(/gal?), but if getting him into Smash means getting more Metroid Prime music (specifically Dark Samus' theme) then by golly I'll campaign for Sylux until I run out of breath.
Well according to dataminers, sylux is the only hunter not to be included as a spirit,
That combined with the knowledge that nintendo are choosing who the next fighters for dlc are and with the anticipatuon of prime Coming around the corner, it would only make since if they chose a character that would be in it to promote more sales(sylux was both hinted at and reveiled to be the antagonist if they made prime4 ) so i wont feel bad if it doesnt happen but oh boy will i be happy if it does happen!
 

ChronoBound

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Well according to dataminers, sylux is the only hunter not to be included as a spirit,
There are plenty of hunters that did not end up as spirits though.

Prime 3:
Rundas
Ghor

Hunters:
Spire
Noxus
Weavel
Sylux
 

Drbaboon

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Hm, so is that a good thing or a bad thing? Obviously Dark Samus has longer lag, but does the shielding opponent also have more lag (hard to tell from the gif)? I suppose that may have some application in singles, but it may be dangerous in doubles.
If electric is the same as sm4sh, the hitstun on the opponent is 1 frame more than normal, example, fair has the phazon, so they are launched for 33 frames of hitstun+1 for electric totaling 34.

So far the most practical uses of this are in her downthrow(her throws get electricity over samus')
and fair.
Buffed Fair having 14 frames landing lag is perfect for dragdown shinanigans, her upair use to be 12 frame but was nerfed so the 14 frames+1 electric is essentially a 13 frame landing lag for some potential extended combos,

Unfortunitly they nerfed dtilt faf by 5 Frames so combos you could technically do with that extra frame are null according to the smash calculator.
And it doesnt kill, but comming out frame 6 makes for an excellent combo finisher.
Maybe max rage with certain weights will allow this move to combo for a kill at 50% with chargeshot or dair but only labbing will tell.

There are plenty of hunters that did not end up as spirits though.

Prime 3:
Rundas
Ghor

Hunters:
Spire
Noxus
Weavel
Sylux
Oops, well my info was wrong, i won't dismiss the idea mainly on the fact prime4 Is coming out and I'd expect nintendo do pull a corrin in sm4sh, but those hunters not being included kind pees on that dream

Ummm....apparently Dark Samus can wavedash. At least she has the best WD according to the video description.
Not as abusable as in Melee but will definitely have some utility.

(unless it gets patched out)
Well i don't want to spam replies all at once but something someone said that makes a lot of since, yes wave dashing in this game is terrible compared to just doing anything out of shield. But! What you rather have? A dodge roll with 37 frames of lag, or one that has 20 frames? Airdodge lag is about 20 frames, so having a 'good' wave dash in ultimate is essentially a better dodge roll.
 

Diem

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It is still surreal that, after the events of Smash 4, we managed to get not one but two Metroid newcomers into the roster. It is a dream come true and it's fantastic to see more Prime content in Smash. Release week is here and I am so ready to play this game.

Mission accomplished
Oh, it's an actual, complete dream come true for me.

Just finished the script on the Dark Samus video I'm making. Currently, 36 pages, 15,571 words. Would've gotten around to it sooner, but November was nuts in terms of things I needed to get done elsewhere.

Tomorrow will be recording, and Wednesday and Thursday will be editing. It's been a while since I've made a video, but I've given this one a lot of thought, and I think despite the length, it'll be an interesting watch/listen at least. I know the beats I want to hit and how I'm going to visualize things. Might not be able to make it as fancy as I'd want it before Friday, but I'll do everything I can to make it as dynamic and stimulating as possible, and not just some dude droning on. The point is just to convey why I and potentially others are big Dark Samus fans. For me, it's a long story, so it'll explain why it's such a big deal to me.

If nothing else, the video will serve as a good time waster as people await the game's release on Thursday.

If electric is the same as sm4sh, the hitstun on the opponent is 1 frame more than normal, example, fair has the phazon, so they are launched for 33 frames of hitstun+1 for electric totaling 34.

So far the most practical uses of this are in her downthrow(her throws get electricity over samus')
and fair.
Buffed Fair having 14 frames landing lag is perfect for dragdown shinanigans, her upair use to be 12 frame but was nerfed so the 14 frames+1 electric is essentially a 13 frame landing lag for some potential extended combos,

Unfortunitly they nerfed dtilt faf by 5 Frames so combos you could technically do with that extra frame are null according to the smash calculator.
And it doesnt kill, but comming out frame 6 makes for an excellent combo finisher.
Maybe max rage with certain weights will allow this move to combo for a kill at 50% with chargeshot or dair but only labbing will tell.
Ah, good to hear. Glad that Dark Samus's distinctive gameplay trait over Samus makes her better in some way.

I've heard that the electric effect/extra hitstun makes it easier to DI out of somehow, though. Is that true?
 
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Izanagi97

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There are plenty of hunters that did not end up as spirits though.

Prime 3:
Rundas
Ghor

Hunters:
Spire
Noxus
Weavel
Sylux
And of those hunters that are not spirits, Sylux is probably the oddest one since he was previously a Trophy in Brawl and is currently pretty relevant in the story at the moment due to his cameos at the end of two different games, his current issues with the Federation, and the possibility that he will have a major role in Prime 4.
 

ChronoBound

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And of those hunters that are not spirits, Sylux is probably the oddest one since he was previously a Trophy in Brawl and is currently pretty relevant in the story at the moment due to his cameos at the end of two different games, his current issues with the Federation, and the possibility that he will have a major role in Prime 4.
Personally, I rather wait until Sylux is proven as a character before adding him in. Let us first see how Prime 4 and Sylux's role within it turns out. Metroid already has all the characters it needs right now.
 

slamallama

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Personally, I rather wait until Sylux is proven as a character before adding him in. Let us first see how Prime 4 and Sylux's role within it turns out. Metroid already has all the characters it needs right now.
Hey if the rumors are true, we'll be getting an actual trailer at the Game Awards in two days... fingers crossed
 

Diem

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Looks a little fake to me, especially with the Gamecube and Wii covers instead of the artwork without the older console designations or instead of screenshots.

But I've been saying they should do this since they announced Metroid Prime 4, since it's been over 9 years since Trilogy was released on Wii, so they need to bring those games to the newer generation of players. Plus, the Wii is a hassle to set up depending on your living situation, so having a better-controlling version of these games that just uses a regular controller would be amazing. Especially since the Switch's gyro aiming is the much better solution to the Wii's motion controls.
 

Drbaboon

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I've heard that the electric effect/extra hitstun makes it easier to DI out of somehow, though. Is that true?
Yes, beside hitstun, electric effects also make hitlag 50% longer than normal (for anyone who doesnt know the definition, hit'lag' is how many frames both the attacker and opponent freeze for as an attack lands, electricity makes that 50% longer, not to mention they already increased it a bit in ultimate to begin with)meaning smash di is a thing, but from what i can tell, it only gives the opponent more time to react where they want to go; but at high play you usually guess where they will be anyway so not that big of a deal.
Which means you will have to make a read. Imo pikachu has never worried about this with his fair when either using it to gimp or drag down for a grab, so the only move i see dark having issues with is upb as a kill option because the optimal di will be more relevent for the entire move, BUT reverse bijg will negate that completely and thebopponent will have to guess which way you are facing so they wont di the wrong way killing themselves sooner (quite evil if you ask me, having the opponent slowly kill themself)

(Edit) I completely forgot, but the added hitlag is actually a buff, apparently when you are hit in ultimate, (best example is corrins chargeshot) a blue pillar appears as to where you will be launched and it changes if the opponent attempts to DI, with added hitstun you will be able to see that blie line given you don't confuse it with dark's phazon effects. Then you have less guessing and will know where they'll fly.
Best case scenario is doubles give teammate more time to react to your attacks and add on, but i cant remember where i heard this but hitlag is nerfed the more players there are (like less with 3 players and almost nonexsistamt in 8player) so that could be horse manuer info but we'll find out in two days
 
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IronTed

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Sylux not being a spirit is indeed odd. If Prime 4 is a late 2019 release (I don't see a world where it launches prior the next E3), then perhaps it could coincide with Ultimate DLC. Has the rough timeframe for DLC been confirmed?
 

Aetheri

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Sylux not being a spirit is indeed odd. If Prime 4 is a late 2019 release (I don't see a world where it launches prior the next E3), then perhaps it could coincide with Ultimate DLC. Has the rough timeframe for DLC been confirmed?
"It would take little more than a year by the time all of the DLC is released" is what Sakurai said in the direct, I've also heard Spring 2020 is the approximate time the last fighter pack is released...
 

Downshift

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I am champing at the bit to play Dark Samus. I want this game NOW.
It's so close. :cry:
 

IsmaR

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I'm hoping any kind of announcement today is soon followed by a teaser/release date for the Dark Samus amiibo (with some sort of compatibility, of course)
 
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