Dirtiest Player in the Game - Wario Social Thread

[Croi]

I like the fluidity of the animations of his dair at least.

 

[Dr. R.O.Botnik]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RnSVMgkBTM

I felt like I was playing Bowser for a moment. What a dumb animation.

I know this is an old comment but 1. Wario and Bowser are actually really similar and B. where did you get that skin.

 

[Lord Chair]

im very intrigued at the notion of comparing wario with bowser

 

[Dr. R.O.Botnik]

One of these days I'm going to have to write up a move comparison.

 

[Strawhat64]

I like Project M's Wario. He's fun and still capable of jumping around, but, it's like they forgot to Melee-fy him. Everyone is faster than him, and he's lacking in pretty much every aspect.

I guess it wouldn't be right if the character I enjoy (I dislike everyone else I've used so far) in the spiritual successor to Melee were any good.

Well...

HungryBox's Wario says other wise.

mmhmm.

 

[Pwneroni]

I really like Project M Wario as well! I actually beat my good buddy Eggz's Fox in a few money matches with him! His side B is tooo good haha! Omg his Fsmash is hilarious too xD His Nair is still a **** sexkick and he still has an aerial grab and nuclear punish as well! Anyone know WTF is up with his Dsmash? It is so weird!

 

[BSP]

I'm a little late, but good nair usage is really good vs. Sonic

 

[Pwneroni]

Good Nair usage is beneficial against everyone! Nair is toooo good

 

[Dr. R.O.Botnik]

I can't even believe what they did to Wario in Project M. They took away almost all of his good moves because defensive play = bad because wavedash l cancel Fox (they seriously re-overpowered a character because they want exactly Melee that badly). Then again, I hate Project M, so my opinion doesn't really matter too much in the grand scheme of things.

 

[UltiMario]

I can't even believe what they did to Wario in Project M. They took away almost all of his good moves because defensive play = bad because wavedash l cancel Fox (they seriously re-overpowered a character because they want exactly Melee that badly). Then again, I hate Project M, so my opinion doesn't really matter too much in the grand scheme of things.

>Implying Fox was OP

It did feel like they got Rid of Wario's old good moves.

And then you realize they made different moves his good moves, so it all works out in the end.

 

[Dr. R.O.Botnik]

Really? Fox wasn't OP in Melee at all and they didn't make him just like he was in Melee? And the shoulder bash is as good as the bike? How about that slow-*** ground pound? I'm sure glad they took out his shield destroyer for that. And who could forget the nerfed bite and waft? Always a good time. However, I will admit that they did a great job replacing his down smash with something useful, and the not-horrible-on-landing Bair is pretty cool. Aside from that, though, they ruined Wario and left him in the dust, probably just because he fit in Brawl well and they hate Brawl so much that they masturbate to wavedashing.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

>Implying Fox was OP

It did feel like they got Rid of Wario's old good moves.

And then you realize they made different moves his good moves, so it all works out in the end.

Most of it is generally too slow or short-ranged to be of great use.

 

[Tesh]

im very intrigued at the notion of comparing wario with bowser

Bowser is so freaking big with awkward hitboxes that sometimes you can't hit people that are really close in front of him with stuff like grab or fsmash.

 

[Lord Chair]

but besides that one example wario doesnt feature any of those aspects

 

[Strawhat64]

>Implying Fox was OP

It did feel like they got Rid of Wario's old good moves.

And then you realize they made different moves his good moves, so it all works out in the end.

I am more upset that Wario dosen't have...

HIS BIKE!!!!

ugh it was the BEST recovery that Wario had :/.

 

[Dr. R.O.Botnik]

I'll write up the exact reasons later, but here are the moves that I found were very similar between the two:

* Ftilt

* Wario Usmash and Bowser Dsmash

* Fsmash

* Fair

* Bair

* Dair

* Wario Nspecial Bowser Fspecial

* both slow, floaty, heavy characters with medium falling speed

Granted, Wario and Bowser are still lightyears apart in terms of usefulness.

 

[Baskerville]

I can't even believe what they did to Wario in Project M. They took away almost all of his good moves because defensive play = bad because wavedash l cancel Fox (they seriously re-overpowered a character because they want exactly Melee that badly). Then again, I hate Project M, so my opinion doesn't really matter too much in the grand scheme of things.

You're not the only one.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'm glad that his recovery was nerfed. It's mindless in this game. You just sort of fire and forget.

 

[Dr. R.O.Botnik]

In Melee, one of the largest problems was that gimping people was too easy, due to many character's poor recoveries and high gravity. All you had to do was knock people far enough off the stage, which could be done easily by just doing an off-the-stage combo. Actually racking up damage was optional since you could just do this and get KOs at 40%. Giving characters better recoveries would solve this problem, and it would make gimping take more skill to do, which was one of the better things about Brawl, where you have to actively prevent them from getting back. They claim that they wanted to make a game that rewarded skill, so why did they intentionally make it easier to gimp? Simple; they didn't, they just said that because they refuse to think that Brawl did absolutely anything correctly and that Melee is absolutely perfect. They are deluded into thinking that making the game closer to Melee is always definitely the best, even when they take certain skills out of the game to do so. Still think the nerf was for the better?

 

[Deleted member 189823]

I thought Project M Wario was pretty good, honestly.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I thought Project M Wario was pretty good, honestly.

I disagree.

 

[Tesh]

but besides that one example wario doesnt feature any of those aspects

yea which is why i only used the comparison in relation to that one video

 

[Shell]

In Melee, one of the largest problems was that gimping people was too easy, due to many character's poor recoveries and high gravity. All you had to do was knock people far enough off the stage, which could be done easily by just doing an off-the-stage combo. Actually racking up damage was optional since you could just do this and get KOs at 40%. Giving characters better recoveries would solve this problem, and it would make gimping take more skill to do, which was one of the better things about Brawl, where you have to actively prevent them from getting back. They claim that they wanted to make a game that rewarded skill, so why did they intentionally make it easier to gimp? Simple; they didn't, they just said that because they refuse to think that Brawl did absolutely anything correctly and that Melee is absolutely perfect. They are deluded into thinking that making the game closer to Melee is always definitely the best, even when they take certain skills out of the game to do so. Still think the nerf was for the better?

I think you might be oversimplifying things a bit, there. We made recovering take more skill, which does inherently make gimping easier in some ways, yes that's true.

Another factor, though, is that with higher gravity it's riskier and/or less possible for characters to go further out for the gimps, which increases the difficulty there.

There are a bunch of complex changes and factors with a net result of not necessarily being inherently better or more skillful one way or another -- it's just an overall play style change subjectively preferred by some people.

Lol, we're not evil or deluded nor do we have a secret agenda -- we just made a game we'd like to play and decided to share it with other people who might like it, too. And if we really thought Melee was perfect we'd just be playing that right now.

Anyways, this is probably too PM specific so we can continue any discussion by PM or in the PM thread if you prefer.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

To be fair, this is a social thread, and it stays dead most of the time. You're welcome to talk about whatever as long as it doesn't go against the Global Rules.

Quick question--Does teching work entirely like it does in Melee? 20-frame window, 40-frame cooldown if you miss it, capable of SDI'ing into the stage and teching an attack?

 

[xzx]

In Melee, one of the largest problems was that gimping people was too easy, due to many character's poor recoveries and high gravity. All you had to do was knock people far enough off the stage, which could be done easily by just doing an off-the-stage combo. Actually racking up damage was optional since you could just do this and get KOs at 40%. Giving characters better recoveries would solve this problem, and it would make gimping take more skill to do, which was one of the better things about Brawl, where you have to actively prevent them from getting back. They claim that they wanted to make a game that rewarded skill, so why did they intentionally make it easier to gimp? Simple; they didn't, they just said that because they refuse to think that Brawl did absolutely anything correctly and that Melee is absolutely perfect. They are deluded into thinking that making the game closer to Melee is always definitely the best, even when they take certain skills out of the game to do so. Still think the nerf was for the better?

You are my hero! I agree with you 110%!

 

[Tesh]

I never really liked Melee edgeguarding. Just the way you can stand on stage and hit people as they grab the ledge was very unentertaining, but when there is a PVP element, it has a way of balancing itself out. If you make defense easy, offense becomes difficult (like brawl), if you make offense easy, defense becomes harder (like melee edgeguards).

 

[Shell]

To be fair, this is a social thread, and it stays dead most of the time. You're welcome to talk about whatever as long as it doesn't go against the Global Rules.

Quick question--Does teching work entirely like it does in Melee? 20-frame window, 40-frame cooldown if you miss it, capable of SDI'ing into the stage and teching an attack?

SDI-into the stage for ledgeteching still needs to be properly implemented but the rest is true.

@Tesh ledgeteching removes the ability to just stand on the stage and hit people, as you say, and watching someone ledgetech and counter-attack is pretty entertaining to me, personally.

This is something that, like I said, isn't working right in PM yet but is on the books to fix.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

In Melee, one of the largest problems was that gimping people was too easy, due to many character's poor recoveries and high gravity. All you had to do was knock people far enough off the stage, which could be done easily by just doing an off-the-stage combo. Actually racking up damage was optional since you could just do this and get KOs at 40%. Giving characters better recoveries would solve this problem, and it would make gimping take more skill to do, which was one of the better things about Brawl, where you have to actively prevent them from getting back. They claim that they wanted to make a game that rewarded skill, so why did they intentionally make it easier to gimp? Simple; they didn't, they just said that because they refuse to think that Brawl did absolutely anything correctly and that Melee is absolutely perfect. They are deluded into thinking that making the game closer to Melee is always definitely the best, even when they take certain skills out of the game to do so. Still think the nerf was for the better?

That's not entirely true. With good timing, sweetspotting the ledge at worst would put you in a position to get F-Smashed, which you could tech and recover out of immediately afterward. It's all about having the timing and skills necessary to do that reliably.

Gimping is a fast-paced part of Melee and part of why it can be especially exciting to watch. Edgeguarding is hardly a fire-and-forget situation unless the opponent has no clue what he's doing. Yes, it can be devastating, but it tends to happen because they're outplayed, rather than because "that's how it is."

The sweetspot area of the ledge seems to have increased a little on average, so it's not as practical to mindlessly F-Smash as Marth now. You're just misinformed about the project being specifically catered to make everything match Melee perfectly.

SDI-into the stage for ledgeteching still needs to be properly implemented but the rest is true.

LAAAAAAAAAME.

Oh well; I imagine it's trouble with the coding itself that is causing it. I do hope it gets figured out, though, and I'm glad that everyone seems to have Mario's magnet hands now, because it lessens the blow.

 

[Shell]

Yeah, it's a priority thing to fix, don't worry.

And for anyone that maybe wasn't interested in competitive play when Melee was around, this is pretty entertaining:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsYLivXNbA4

I agree with all of you that Brawl edgeguarding, the ability to go further out and do crazy stuff is pretty cool in its own right, and if there's a comparable Brawl video I'd probably enjoy watching it (link?). I'm just putting forth the case that both games have their own offstage strengths, trying to encourage some open minded discussion, y'know.

(Also, lol, quality on old maylay vids is soooo bad)

 

[Pwneroni]

Basically Wario in Project M feels more like the guy from the Wario Land games! He has a shoulder bash, a ground pound, Butt Stomp and a BIG FIST! (Bair). Basically it feels awesome to play him haha, kinda feels like I'm playing one of those old games.

Brawl Wario on the other hand, clearly was from the WarioWare games. His Bike, WarioMan, the Bite, the floatiness, basically it was taken right from WarioWare!

 

[xzx]

His f-tilt comes from Super Mario RPG's Booster, Wario's "look-alike".

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I am biased toward WarioWare Wario because it's my favorite game series. :x

That said, I use the white overalls costume in P:M to fit with Wario Land 3.

 

[Shell]

Wario Land 3 vs. 4... thought?

I think I'm a three guy. Liked the exploration of the overworld and revisiting new areas of old worlds, plus the skill progression was pretty fun.

Initially hated 4's time limit stuff but warmed up to it a bit.

 

[Dr. R.O.Botnik]

I think you might be oversimplifying things a bit, there. We made recovering take more skill, which does inherently make gimping easier in some ways, yes that's true.

They took out autograb and I don't think you can grab backwards anymore, so that alone would've solved that issue.

Another factor, though, is that with higher gravity it's riskier and/or less possible for characters to go further out for the gimps, which increases the difficulty there.

Combo slightly off the stage and finish with a high base knockback aerial. You recover, they don't, GGs all around.

Lol, we're not evil or deluded nor do we have a secret agenda -- we just made a game we'd like to play and decided to share it with other people who might like it, too. And if we really thought Melee was perfect we'd just be playing that right now.

Then why does Project M borrow absolutely nothing from Brawl except stages and characters? They said on their website that they don't want a 1:1 Melee, but that's what they did.

That's not entirely true. With good timing, sweetspotting the ledge at worst would put you in a position to get F-Smashed, which you could tech and recover out of immediately afterward. It's all about having the timing and skills necessary to do that reliably.

Still, like I said, you could just combo off the stage and do a high base knockback finisher. No edeguarding necessary aside from maybe dropping down at the last second.

Gimping is a fast-paced part of Melee and part of why it can be especially exciting to watch. Edgeguarding is hardly a fire-and-forget situation unless the opponent has no clue what he's doing. Yes, it can be devastating, but it tends to happen because they're outplayed, rather than because "that's how it is."

Still, the edgeguarding player has way too large of an advantage. The person off the stage has to climb a mountain while the guy on the stage is basically just throwing pennies off the top, and the guarder still usually wins. In Brawl, it actually took effort to edgeguard.

The sweetspot area of the ledge seems to have increased a little on average, so it's not as practical to mindlessly F-Smash as Marth now. You're just misinformed about the project being specifically catered to make everything match Melee perfectly.

That's what they did, though. They said that they didn't want a 1:1 Melee, but they came out with a 1:1 Melee, to the point of making a character overpowered again.

Anyway, let me get away from my general dislike of project no Brawl allowed for a moment. Let me just pretend for a minute that it's okay to remove the best parts of a character because you don't like the game he's from. They gave him nothing in return. They took out his recovery move, took out one of his best aerials, removed his best ground move, and nerfed two of his most useful specials, and what did he get? Nothing. Well, he got that not useless Dsmash, but that's it. They destroyed him and left him for dead, and that's poor balance. Honestly, Sakurai did a better job. However, if they just left him the way he was and then made a completely different Wario based off of the Wario Land games, that would be fine.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Wario Land 3 vs. 4... thought?

I think I'm a three guy. Liked the exploration of the overworld and revisiting new areas of old worlds, plus the skill progression was pretty fun.

Initially hated 4's time limit stuff but warmed up to it a bit.

Wario Land 3 all the way. I enjoy 4, but, 3 is a cherished part of my childhood. It was neat to go back to old areas and see expanded possibilities, and having your skills/abilities improve bit by bit felt more rewarding. I like the "personality" of it more.

They took out autograb and I don't think you can grab backwards anymore, so that alone would've solved that issue.

Combo slightly off the stage and finish with a high base knockback aerial. You recover, they don't, GGs all around.

Then why does Project M borrow absolutely nothing from Brawl except stages and characters? They said on their website that they don't want a 1:1 Melee, but that's what they did.

Still, like I said, you could just combo off the stage and do a high base knockback finisher. No edeguarding necessary aside from maybe dropping down at the last second.

Still, the edgeguarding player has way too large of an advantage. The person off the stage has to climb a mountain while the guy on the stage is basically just throwing pennies off the top, and the guarder still usually wins. In Brawl, it actually took effort to edgeguard.

That's what they did, though. They said that they didn't want a 1:1 Melee, but they came out with a 1:1 Melee, to the point of making a character overpowered again.

Anyway, let me get away from my general dislike of project no Brawl allowed for a moment. Let me just pretend for a minute that it's okay to remove the best parts of a character because you don't like the game he's from. They gave him nothing in return. They took out his recovery move, took out one of his best aerials, removed his best ground move, and nerfed two of his most useful specials, and what did he get? Nothing. Well, he got that not useless Dsmash, but that's it. They destroyed him and left him for dead, and that's poor balance. Honestly, Sakurai did a better job. However, if they just left him the way he was and then made a completely different Wario based off of the Wario Land games, that would be fine.

I don't know what "autograb" is. Pivot grabbing is still in the game, but the increased range of movement for dashdancing makes it so that you can't essentially replace your standing grab with a pivotgrab. That was a smart decision.

If you manage to combo someone off the level and then land a strong aerial, I would definitely say you earned the KO. Perhaps the opponent shouldn't be playing so close to the edge if the matchup causes this scenario to be a regular occurrence.

Mechanics like footstooling and pivot grabs are intact. Many of the not-so-good Melee characters were given buffs, like Pikachu's Quick Attack Cancel and Ganondorf's Flame Choke, both of which are concepts lifted directly from Brawl. I would say that you're just not looking hard enough for them.

SDI and proper DI do a good job of making basic combos at low percent a struggle to recover from. Many characters have tweaks on their recoveries that help them. Recovery didn't universally become worse for all the Brawl characters--Look at Snake, for instance.

In Brawl, recovery is -really- easy for most characters to achieve. I would argue that being a Wario main, you might find it difficult to see that, because he has one of the most potent edgeguarding games available. Most characters can't do a thing to stop someone like Marth (who has a decidedly average recovery), much less Wario or G&W. Admittedly, it's hard to find a true balance, but, people generally prefer to reward the character that did things right (getting in and comboing) instead of rewarding the player that did things wrong (getting comboed and knocked offstage). I've never agreed with things like Ultras in Street Fighter 4 and increasing amounts of X-Factor in Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3, because it's getting rewarded for losing. It's not quite the same thing as being able to recover especially efficiently, but, factoring in the ledge invulnerability, I'd say people have it pretty nice in Brawl.

Uh, Wario got a lot of nice traits that we learned to go without. Jab is frame 3. D-Tilt moves forward on start-up. Up-B is frame 6 and is harder to punish via SDI. N-Air is frame 4 and there's less time between the two hits. We got an awesome spike that is relatively safe to throw out on-stage thanks to L-Canceling. Bite usually deals 13 damage, causes a ground bounce, and the throw can be directed behind Wario now. Max power Waft is stronger than the mostly-charged forms, so you don't feel pressured to use it before it's fully-charged. It might be frustrating to see his best moves change so drastically, but, that isn't to say that they nerfed him just to Melee-fy him or just because they don't like anything related to his Brawl incarnation.

 

[Shell]

In addition to the things Reflex mentioned...

-You can angle Up-B more to the side
-You can still do DACUS (which is pretty useful on Wario and is an important preserved Brawl mechanic, even added to additional characters i.e. Lucas / GW). U-smash has larger hitboxes that link more reliably into final hit.
-F-tilt KB was increased, I believe,
-F-smash startup is one frame faster (hits 8)
-U-tilt has a more exaggerated dodge built into it along with some bone invincibility and larger hitboxes
-his crouch is lower
-side-b is more frequently useful on the stage.
-falls faster and dash speed is 15% faster and combined with DD he can move around a bit better overall even with his slightly lowered air control.

...lot's of little tweaks I'm probably forgetting

(Side-B flash colors were taken from Wario Land 4, dunno if anyone noticed that.)

 

[Lord Chair]

i didnt actually read your post (sorry i dont really care about project M) but upb and nair are frame 6 and 4 in brawl as well

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Uh, are you sure that Wario can still DACUS? Or was it added in v2.1? I can't seem to make it happen.

 

[Shell]

The timing is a little tighter but it's definitely still in (I'm doing it right now) and probably better due to the u-smash improvements.

 

[Dr. R.O.Botnik]

I don't know what "autograb" is. Pivot grabbing is still in the game, but the increased range of movement for dashdancing makes it so that you can't essentially replace your standing grab with a pivotgrab. That was a smart decision.

That's not what I was talking about. It's that thing where you can do a recovery move or a jump and it takes you right to the ledge.

If you manage to combo someone off the level and then land a strong aerial, I would definitely say you earned the KO. Perhaps the opponent shouldn't be playing so close to the edge if the matchup causes this scenario to be a regular occurrence.

I disagree. Anyone can combo off the edge, and "just staying away from the edge" isn't as simple as you make it sound, especially on stages like BF and YS. If you can force an SD at a low percentage, it should take more skill to do so than doing a basic recovery.

Mechanics like footstooling and pivot grabs are intact. Many of the not-so-good Melee characters were given buffs, like Pikachu's Quick Attack Cancel and Ganondorf's Flame Choke, both of which are concepts lifted directly from Brawl. I would say that you're just not looking hard enough for them.

Even then, the things they took out that wouldn't have conflicted with Melee heavily outweighs the things that they left in. I'm just going to leave this here, because I've been on these forums long enough to know that this would turn into a "list literally everything or you lose" situation very fast.

SDI and proper DI do a good job of making basic combos at low percent a struggle to recover from. Many characters have tweaks on their recoveries that help them. Recovery didn't universally become worse for all the Brawl characters--Look at Snake, for instance.

Oh, yeah, Snake, and also...

The other ones that didn't have theirs weakened didn't have good recoveries in the first place.

In Brawl, recovery is -really- easy for most characters to achieve. I would argue that being a Wario main, you might find it difficult to see that, because he has one of the most potent edgeguarding games available. Most characters can't do a thing to stop someone like Marth (who has a decidedly average recovery), much less Wario or G&W. Admittedly, it's hard to find a true balance, but, people generally prefer to reward the character that did things right (getting in and comboing) instead of rewarding the player that did things wrong (getting comboed and knocked offstage).

There are two major problems with this argument. The first is that you are completely ignoring the difference in reward between gimping and recovering. Recovering is getting back on the stage, in this case at a low percentage where you would not normally be KO'd, whereas gimping is forcing a SD at a low percentage. Forgive me if I'm crazy for thinking that the former is way less rewarding than the latter. The second is that you are implying that whoever is losing deserves to lose immediately. If this is true, then why isn't Smash like fencing or MvC where you lose on the first hit? Why aren't we playing at 300% handicaps?

I've never agreed with things like Ultras in Street Fighter 4 and increasing amounts of X-Factor in Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3, because it's getting rewarded for losing. It's not quite the same thing as being able to recover especially efficiently, but, factoring in the ledge invulnerability, I'd say people have it pretty nice in Brawl.

You are completely wrong about Ultra's and people really need to stop with the whole "if the loser isn't a hobo then the game is giving them too much" mentality, but I won't go into the former for fear of total derailment and I already went into the latter.

Uh, Wario got a lot of nice traits that we learned to go without. Jab is frame 3. D-Tilt moves forward on start-up. Up-B is frame 6 and is harder to punish via SDI. N-Air is frame 4 and there's less time between the two hits. We got an awesome spike that is relatively safe to throw out on-stage thanks to L-Canceling. Bite usually deals 13 damage, causes a ground bounce, and the throw can be directed behind Wario now. Max power Waft is stronger than the mostly-charged forms, so you don't feel pressured to use it before it's fully-charged.

Those are nice, but most of those are very minor and don't even come close to making up for what they took out. I'd rather have a shield destroyer than a slow-*** ***, I'd rather be able to hold them for longer and possibly get a gimp setup (that I would have to skillfully edgeguard to earn) than be able to throw behind me, and I would definitely rather be able to not die at 40% than have a stupid elbow charge that isn't even close to as effective. The little frame buffs are cool and I like those, but they're worthless without what makes Wario good in the first place.

It might be frustrating to see his best moves change so drastically, but, that isn't to say that they nerfed him just to Melee-fy him or just because they don't like anything related to his Brawl incarnation.

Then why did they do it? They claimed that they were "answering the prayers" of people who wanted him to use his Wario Land moves, but I can't entirely believe that they're that scrubby. Why would they take away the defensive aerial parts of a character that was designed to be in a defensive aerial game? No idea.