Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
theres some mario discussion on this page: http://smashboards.com/threads/kong-kollege-diddy-kong-tactical-discussion.331665/page-19Hello everyone, new board member here.
I have been working on Diddy for awhile, and one MU that I've run into considerable difficulty with is Mario. Mario's fireballs seem to come out a bit quicker than the peanuts and they also break most aerials from what I've seen. I can't seem to find a good approach here, and though I'm newer to P:M I'd be inclined to say that this is not the best match-up for Diddy. Any thoughts?
My Zelda experience has a little relevancy here, what I do against Mario is I place a dins at my feet and guard it with Nayru's, Mario "baits" out a grounded Nayru's with a fireball and "punishes" it with a grab. But he gets hit with the dins and I get to go on the offensive. I would work even better with Diddy because he doesn't have to worry about grab armor. Stand over your banana and let him hit you with a fireball, shield, and he'll probably go in for a grab if he doesn't think about what he's doing. It's unbelievably easy for even pros to forget about mines/bananas/dins. He trips and you go on the offensive.The matchups that I have found difficult so far are mainly fast and extremely light/slippery characters. Namely: Falcon, Luigi and Samus (probably Squirtle too, but I haven't fought any great Squirtles.) Luigi is the easiest of the three, but as discussed, he can be very frustrating due to it being difficult to follow anything up on him. Samus similarly, but she has so many other tools and projectiles that make for a tough fight. I might share some deeper thoughts about some of these characters later!
On the discussion of Mario:
I find Mario as a character difficult to deal with no matter who I play, but the only particular detriments I see for Diddy versus Mario are Mario's incredible d-throw game and his edge guarding, as mentioned. If you recover low it isn't much of an issue, and recovering super high is also an option, though I try not to do it often. So, it really doesn't feel much different that facing someone like Ike at the ledge to me, just that Mario has a safer time going off stage to get you. If Mario ever gets a grab on me, at low% he seems to always get at least an up smash into re-grab, into another up smash or just about anything else. You don't want to get caught in your shield against Mario at all, really. I find the matchup very volatile for that reason.
He's got a great wavedash to pick up yer bananas, but his low speed doesn't really make it much of an option like with other characters such as Falcon. It's also very easy to pull bananas against a Mario once you have space for that reason, I feel. It can also be a little tricky to combo him due to his weight, but, for example, once you get a feel for the %'s he can act before hitting the ground after d-throw, you can read and punish accordingly instead of going for a tech chase. The weight definitely works in your favour at high %; it's very nice that up-throw seems to kill at ~130 on most stages. On all light characters I generally try to fish for a banana -> up throw as an easy finisher at higher percents.
The fireball approaches were something that I struggled with initially (and was convinced that it was a poor match for Diddy), but you just have to learn not to give Mario any respect when he's coming at you with those, heh. Generally what I try to do is wait at a mid-range from Mario, and if he goes for a full-hop approaching fireball, you get a free nair or side-b kick. With a banana, you can either do the latter to some success (he ends up above you, so you get some stage control) or glide toss your banana into the fireball and shield as he comes in from the air, getting you a grab. Otherwise, hey, he's in the air! Do what you want to him! Shooting a bunch of aerial peanuts also makes it more difficult for Mario to come in with those, as he's pressured in the vicinity that he wants to jump to throw the fireball. If he's hanging back with the fireballs, generally I try to make sure I have two bananas out, then continuously glide-toss them and shooting peanuts when you have the chance and Mario can't really keep up with the barrage (this works pretty well against most projectile-heavy characters for me, and seems to be a good practice in principle.) Jabbing fireballs is a bit hard with Diddy, but when one falls into position for it, it seems to be a pretty good option. If all else fails, you can always try for a powershield!
Edge guarding the guy feels pretty good, but it's pretty hard to gimp Mario with anybody haha. I find cartwheels pretty effective on Mario off-stage since he has to come back fairly slowly and low with cape, but if he goes real low and uses down-b, you can actually beat it with a banana <3.
If he wavelands then you can u-smash OOS. Also if he is aware of the banana then he won't approach, allowing you some breathing room to set up YOUR approach. It was one of my main methods of halting Mario's pressure before I starting throwing in teledashes to make his approach sloppy and disjointed.The guy I know that plays Luigi basically stands up every time he mashes B, so I assume you just have to mash it harder haha.
That's an interesting way to deal with approaching fireballs. It sounds like you'd be relying on your opponent to overlook the banana, though, so it might not be as safe as some other punishes that you can do on reaction. I feel like it would come in handy as a nice situational option if you're comfortable with the option of him wavelanding to pick up the banana while you're in shield.
Pitch a tent, bro.it can be a headache if I don't resort to setting up camp and forcing a teleport approach.
I like the MU because I just camp with peanuts with a banana in my hand and I don't let it go unless I see an opportunity, like the marth trying to jump over a peanut or got hit by one or put himself on a platform or something. We get punished way to hard to try to out-neutral a marth without camping imo.Serious question. I've seen a lot of people here talk about how they like the Diddy-Marth matchup.
Has anyone here played against a Marth that could actually glide toss and use it well in his play?
Do you leave the second banana on stage somewhere, or only use 1? I've had Marths that were completely stumped by raining peanuts and a banana on the ground, and a couple where it was just way too difficult to prevent him from picking up the second banana for it to be worthwhile. Fortunately, most people on Netplay have pretty poor item handling.I like the MU because I just camp with peanuts with a banana in my hand and I don't let it go unless I see an opportunity, like the marth trying to jump over a peanut or got hit by one or put himself on a platform or something. We get punished way to hard to try to out-neutral a marth without camping imo..
If I pull out a second banana against marth I make sure that it goes onto a platform that I have control over, so if he wants it he has to commit to leaving the ground which instantly give you the advantage in the MU imo. I made the mistake of leaving a banana laying around against Tai and he took a stock with it (no AGTs or glidetosses or anything, just smart play because he thinks about the game way better than me) and help onto it for a good min and a half. Like Diddy's DD game is scary with a banana, Marth's (fox's too) becomes that much more threatening.Do you leave the second banana on stage somewhere, or only use 1? I've had Marths that were completely stumped by raining peanuts and a banana on the ground, and a couple where it was just way too difficult to prevent him from picking up the second banana for it to be worthwhile. Fortunately, most people on Netplay have pretty poor item handling.
I learned to waveland the popgun for this reason. I also like it when running across the stage to set up an edge guard, as it keeps your momentum up but gives your opponent something else to pay attention to when recovering. I've also used it in situations where I've fired the popgun to force a low recovery, then wavelanded off the stage into an aerial. It's hard to do without killing yourself, though.When I do throw them out and want it back i try to cover it with a sh popgun and either get the banana with the waveland out of popgun or waveland> dash>wd back.
Diddy as the best character in PM? No way. Absolutely no way.I main Olimar with Ness, Mewtwo, Squirtle, and Diddy as regular "others" and I play against a Diddy and DK almost exclusivley (when playing against this one player.) I really feel like Diddy has a lot of tools that cover more bases than most of the rest of the cast. I'm not sure what his weakness is. The only real weakness I think he has, is that he gives the player too much confidence and opens the door for him to make more mistakes.
Vs Olimar: His Dash attack absolutley crushes Olimar's recovery. He can be carried off stage with it and then jump kicked right after. His Barrel Blast can be charged in his return path crushing his hope for a return. His Peanuts only need 1 hit to completly gimp him if he's used his second jump or his Pluck Hop. His Peanut cancels Olimars pikmin throws and it shoots faster. Nearly all of his attacks cut through his Pikmin. His flip grab takes Priority over almost everything he does and has a deceptivly large grab box.
Vs Squirtle: Squirtle has a better matchup but Diddy ultimatly wins. It mostly comes down to who has more tricks and can hit harder. Diddy wins in both catagories, plus his flip wins against Withdraw.
Vs Ness: Ness can trade a lot but Diddy has the advantage and gains more from the trades. Easy monkey flip over PK Fire to land a few hit combo.
Vs Mewtwo: Throwing out Neutral air randomly, wrecks his teleport approach. It's not really a bad match up, for either one, but Diddy has more tools to take him farther.
I wouldn't say to gimp him at all, but I think the rest of the cast needs to have more tools to work with. He's a great character but he's a pain to fight against because he out options you. He has combos like crazy, an air grab that can gimp/combo, anti camp with a Peanut Gun that forces people to approach and doubles as an off stage spamable gimp tool, area control with Bananas, an Up B with amazing recovery potential and it attacks if inturupted, a multi hit dash attack that goes off stage doubling as a fantastic edge guard. These are just some of the amazing tools he has.
I just hope that the rest of the cast is given options to compete with this. He's still in his baby stage at the moment, but I think he may be the best character (or at least in a solid top tier) in the right hands.
I know I mentionted it lightly before, but he isn't fun to play against. He is fun to play with and watch, but very frustrating to play against. Mostly because I often feel like I don't have any good options against him.
He may not be the "best" and I'm fine with that. As I said, I think he's solidly in the top tier. I don't think they should change him much, but he has more tools than most of the other characters and they don't have tools to deal with it in most cases. You talk about him getting punished pretty hard but he can have surprising recovery time on a lot of moves (Up B if angled right) where many other characters aren't given that luxury. If anything, I'm more saying that I'd like it if more of the cast could deal with his shenanagins. I'm curious to know what you think his weaknesses are. So far, he's comboable, but thats a weakness most characters have.Diddy as the best character in PM? No way. Absolutely no way.
His recovery isn't being punished hard enough yet, it's got some huge flaws. He's got good air combos but he doesn't punish as hard as Fox. He's got great options and that's what makes him a solid character, but there's lots of other characters with stuff on him. He gets punished hard for his mistakes (especially if the opponent knows how to edgeguard him) and he's vulnerable to his own bananas.
Like you said, the biggest is he's at an unfortunately perfect combo weight. Aside from that:He may not be the "best" and I'm fine with that. As I said, I think he's solidly in the top tier. I don't think they should change him much, but he has more tools than most of the other characters and they don't have tools to deal with it in most cases. You talk about him getting punished pretty hard but he can have surprising recovery time on a lot of moves (Up B if angled right) where many other characters aren't given that luxury. If anything, I'm more saying that I'd like it if more of the cast could deal with his shenanagins. I'm curious to know what you think his weaknesses are. So far, he's comboable, but thats a weakness most characters have.
Also, there is only one moment in his entire up-B charge process where he can sweet spot the ledge. If he releases earlier, he dies. If he holds the charge even a fraction of a second too long, he will overshoot.Like you said, the biggest is he's at an unfortunately perfect combo weight. Aside from that:
Diddy has counterplay, the problem is that people get too flustered playing against him to really stop and take stock of it. Diddy runs with momentum like a space animal, and if you let him get started against you then you're going to have a bad time. Pressure is one of the best ways to keep Diddy in check, but people are afraid to do anything but shield when he holds a banana.
- Bananas can be used against him. If people ever learn this, they might have less to complain about.
- A recovery very vulnerable to projectiles. People try to edgeguard Diddy like you would Fox by trying to knock him out of his up-b, which is obviously a bad idea. Try recovering against a needle-happy Sheik and tell me how broken Diddy feels.
- Peanuts are one of the weakest projectiles in the game, in terms of priority. They can be swatted, and most other projectiles will rip right through them. They can also be caught and thrown back. Really, there's not much reason to be getting camped by just peanut spam.
- A lack of true combos. Most of Diddy's combos are just techchases, and while some things like side-b set up for other moves very smoothly (side-b -> fair is notably good here) good DI and teching can actually do a lot to slow Diddy down.
- CC and punish the dash attack. It's absurd how much people just let him roll through with that thing.
I realize that this all sounds like the normal mantra of "People need to learn the MU", but that's really what it boils down to.
And for the record, Diddy's barrels when he's knocked out of his up-b are silly and probably not 100% necessary.
Thanks for the info. I've had a really hard time against him and the player I play against doesn't even use bananas. He doesn't always shoot for the sweetspot but often archs into the middle of the stage, at which point he has a surprising recovery time so it's weird to punish (with Olimar). I know Olimar has a good Dsmash so I'll try and catch him with that next time he's aiming for the ledge.Also, there is only one moment in his entire up-B charge process where he can sweet spot the ledge. If he releases earlier, he dies. If he holds the charge even a fraction of a second too long, he will overshoot.
The threat of a ledge hog or an actual ledge hog will force Diddy to hold the charge. People do this to me all the time- rushing to the ledge- but then they stay on the ledge and treat me like I'm Fox's up B.
All you have to do is get on the ledge and charge a Smash. Seriously.
Diddy's secret weakness- threaten a ledge hog in the moment he can sweet spot, then charge a Smash. Free tipper or dtilt kill move.
I only know one person who does this to me correctly every time, but it's incredibly hard to recover against. The only times I ever make it back is if my percentage is low enough and the barrel misfire catches him and I get another shot. It's the weakness in Diddy's recovery- that you cannot sweet spot after charging too much and it is very very hard to sweet spot.
So you know the mechanics- the longer Diddy charges, the further he goes. From this you'll realize, logically, there is only one point in the charge process that he'll reach the ledge without passing it. Charge a split second longer, and your hurtbox will pass the lip.Thanks for the info. I've had a really hard time against him and the player I play against doesn't even use bananas. He doesn't always shoot for the sweetspot but often archs into the middle of the stage, at which point he has a surprising recovery time so it's weird to punish (with Olimar). I know Olimar has a good Dsmash so I'll try and catch him with that next time he's aiming for the ledge.
Olimar's Bair starts below him and is decently disjointed. Try holding ledge and refreshing invincibility, then go intercept his up-b with a DJ Bair. Because it starts below him you don't have to worry about Diddy aiming right for you and sneaking past the hitboxes. Alternatively you could just hold the ledge, and when he releases up-b do a normal ledge get up, turn around and d-tilt him, and combo into a fair. If Diddy does make it back to the ledge, don't give up stage for free, of he trys to do anything to bet back on stage go for a pivot grab. it covers all ledge jump aerials, rolls,and jump>side-b from diddy, and nets you a d-throw>fair or up-throw>fair.Thanks for the info. I've had a really hard time against him and the player I play against doesn't even use bananas. He doesn't always shoot for the sweetspot but often archs into the middle of the stage, at which point he has a surprising recovery time so it's weird to punish (with Olimar). I know Olimar has a good Dsmash so I'll try and catch him with that next time he's aiming for the ledge.
Dash attack to dash attack shouldn't actually work at most percentages unless the opponent DI's wrong. There's a DI to escape it, but I'm rarely at the other end of it so I don't actually know it. I THINK you want to DI away and down and tech the ground.I'm a metaknight main in P:M and i'm having a really hard time beating my friend who is a Diddy player.. all he does is dash attack dash attack and spikes me with wither his Bair or his up b and try to DI away from his ground assults and his spikes but its just hard for me to kill him off stage and end his stocks safely... I use to be able to body him but i gave him a few pointers and now its like he always beats me i need help.
Side stepping works when i can time it right but the way that MK works is by racking up a lot of damage and then killing ive gimped him a few times but he just comes back by spiking its so annoying!
I played DLA in tournament just this Wednesday. I was impressed with myself, taking him down to last stock our first game and down to two stocks the second match.
DLA thinks that the matchup is heavily in Diddy's favor, but I disagree. I can't even call a matchup rating on it, sometimes it felt even, sometimes it felt like Olimar was better and sometimes it felt like Diddy was better. Really it came down to, how successful can I be at using his bananas against him. Thanks to coming from maining Y.Link in Melee and starting out with T.Link in PM, turns out I can do it fairly well.
I've really been thinking about this matchup a lot though, and I'd love to hear other people's input on it.
me said:the matchup is slightly in diddy's favor. thats only because olimar's glide toss and agt are both so bad. the key to playing against a good diddy is using his nanners against you and NOT GETTING OFF STAGE. seriously the whole matchup is basically who gets off stage first loses a stock. upsmash combos wont do much due to him being a psuedo-fast faller from what i've seen. so after 2 usmashes you should start going for uairs. anyway, stages are normal, yoshi story, battlefield etc. try to out move him and just stay mobile and watch out for bananas at the same time. purple side-b is a blessing in this matchup, it shuts down all of his shenanigans if timed right. 5.5-4.5 in his favor.