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[#HBC | Ryker]

Yeah, I was pretty heavily invested in Riddle, but only because I felt his play was better.

Rofl .

 

[Evil Eye]

Maybe I'll read the first two Days since they seem to encompass most of this ****. What game is it, Deadpool?

Regardless, your total insistence that Riddle being your scumbuddy had no influence on your thinking is just preposterous. Of course it does. It always does. It is literally not possible to have that completely exorcized from your thinking. You invested in Riddle because you thought you could get away with it; that's the true reality of it. Sure, maybe you thought you could get away with it because you "legit felt his play was better", but your driving motivation was not to lynch the scummiest player, it was to lynch enough good guys to win the game. Which means preferably not lynching Riddle, if you can get away with it.

Even if Riddle really did edge him out (and I'm just not seeing that; I'm seeing a veteran player coasting by on town reads and asking for content and operating with no direction at all... factor in BSP being noobtown and... yeah, really now) the fact of the matter is that their slots are close enough in quality that the call someone makes between the two is deserving of analysis, and you got analyzed, and the analysis came to the conclusion that you are probably scum, and it related the differentiation you made to your alignment being scum, and implies (again I can't say what BSP was thinking, but the implication is def there) that Riddle might be scum and that that is also part of it.

The mosaic comes together. Dusty and cobwebby from noobiness, sure, but I'm seeing legit play.

 

[BarDulL]

Looking up "Abitrary differentiation".

Also EE can you give a simple example, visually I guess.

"Here's what BSP did: He isolated what scum would have done (pick a favorite between two slots that are indistinguishable, or just the plain wrong one) and identified it in your behavior. That is analysis, not flailing around on the wings of THE GUT."

About this

It basically means "picking favorites for no particular reason," but there's always a reason. Like, between hiring two people who have the same credentials and you have to make a choice, you still need a reason. If that reason is proven to not be the logical course to take based on previously established precedents you've set, then the decision is contradictory of the facts at hand and there needs to be an explanation for it. If no explanation can be provided, then the decision can be called arbitrary, or baseless, because the decision was proven to be made with a distinct lack of criteria in mind.

 

[Evil Eye]

and gorf damn it DGames are we still ****ing here?

Pushing someone that happened to suggest your death first is not OMGUS every time. It's about where it's deriving from. BSP isn't OMGUSing here, even if an initial OMGUS reaction is what caused him to look at you. And, hell, sometimes someone's motivations to set up someone's death are non-legit. Y'know, such as here, where you were scum and he was the scrubtown path of least resistance ML.

All squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares. All OMGUSes are pushes incited by what is perceived as undue suspicion, but not all pushes incited by what is perceived as undue suspicion are OMGUS.

 

[BarDulL]

Maybe I'll read the first two Days since they seem to encompass most of this ****. What game is it, Deadpool?

Regardless, your total insistence that Riddle being your scumbuddy had no influence on your thinking is just preposterous. Of course it does. It always does. It is literally not possible to have that completely exorcized from your thinking. You invested in Riddle because you thought you could get away with it; that's the true reality of it. Sure, maybe you thought you could get away with it because you "legit felt his play was better", but your driving motivation was not to lynch the scummiest player, it was to lynch enough good guys to win the game. Which means preferably not lynching Riddle, if you can get away with it.

Even if Riddle really did edge him out (and I'm just not seeing that; I'm seeing a veteran player coasting by on town reads and asking for content and operating with no direction at all... factor in BSP being noobtown and... yeah, really now) the fact of the matter is that their slots are close enough in quality that the call someone makes between the two is deserving of analysis, and you got analyzed, and the analysis came to the conclusion that you are probably scum, and it related the differentiation you made to your alignment being scum, and implies (again I can't say what BSP was thinking, but the implication is def there) that Riddle might be scum and that that is also part of it.

The mosaic comes together. Dusty and cobwebby from noobiness, sure, but I'm seeing legit play.

Hey now, let's not put words in my mouth. I try as hard as I can to exorcize my partners from my approach unless it's just impossible to commit to. Full response later.

Game is Puzzle Bobble mafia

 

[Evil Eye]

Yes and so do I.

But it's still there, it's still a fact. Can't believe you're denying this lmfao. I am all about busing my buddies if I'd be on them as town but the fact of the matter is if you play townscum for a whole damn game you're gonna end up having to lynch yourself and lose, so you don't get to claim some persistent high road just because you say you use that approach

I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm putting facts on the table. Mafia needs to lynch town. You were trying to lynch town. Town that was similar to a scum. Scum that, if you were to clear as town, could help you cruise to victory. Town didn't care for this. Town looked into things. Town decided your differentiation between them (town) and scum wasn't legit. Town decided you were scum.

 

[Mastermind Super Fiend]

and gorf damn it DGames are we still ****ing here?

Pushing someone that happened to suggest your death first is not OMGUS every time. It's about where it's deriving from. BSP isn't OMGUSing here, even if an initial OMGUS reaction is what caused him to look at you. And, hell, sometimes someone's motivations to set up someone's death are non-legit. Y'know, such as here, where you were scum and he was the scrubtown path of least resistance ML.

All squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares. All OMGUSes are pushes incited by what is perceived as undue suspicion, but not all pushes incited by what is perceived as undue suspicion are OMGUS.

I agree to this. My response to Vanderzant in Celeb Rehab Mafia was not omgus, I have already had the thought in mind it was just he made a fake case on me first. I was too lazy to put it out fast enough before he did.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

My response to Vanderzant in Celeb Rehab Mafia was not omgus, I have already had the thought in mind it was just he made a fake case on me first.

Iirc, I thought you were at least omgusing other people because your reasoning for them was pretty bad (Rajam, Dooms)

But who cares about that. Let's talk about how awesome the yankees/btbam are.

 

[BarDulL]

BSP decided I was scum, not Town as a whole. I'm not trying to deny anything, I'm saying that I feel I was staying above arbitrary differentiation in this circumstance, not that I'm denying it. Riddle being my partner was icing on the cake. There may be a part of me that had Riddle as a priority because he was my mate (this was true on d5) but I still feel that I had what I needed to stay above it. I'm totally up for hearing your take though w.r.t. your stance further on it if you read the game. I'm always looking to improve.

Ok I seriously need to study, got a test in 2 hours.

 

[BarDulL]

I think I'm just not getting my point across well enough. Yeah, I obviously want my mate to live, but if he's playing better, then I can avoid arbitrary differentiation at the surface level. Do you get what I'm saying? If not, I'll look this over when I'm done.

 

[BSP]

Bardull, I'm still not seeing how my read was baseless. Can you explain that for me

Also, my first vote on you was in post 1466; a loooong ways away from when you specifically put me in your sights. I'm not seeing the OMGUS.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

let's talk about how awesome the yankees/btbam are.

 

[Vinylic.]

Hey guys, I'm still thinking on Judge Mafia and I ended up finding this.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=22826

This would partially be like that if possible, but I had the idea of scum picking the judge, who will permanently be the judge for the rest of the game, being immune to NKs.

I'll be continuing further on this, so you'll possibly expect a game like this to happen soon.

 

[#HBC | BadWolf]

MFW this was actually brought into the social thread.

 

[Mastermind]

@Mastermind Superfiend:

You bring shame upon my title. There's only one Mastermind here.

I will destroy you!

 

[Mastermind]

Mastermind, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:

Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation.

CURSES.

The first one to rectify this insolence will be permitted a continued existence.

The rest of this puny forum administration will be dropped into the shark tank.

 

[BSL]

that font color...

 

[#HBC | BadWolf]

that font color...

 

[BSL]

You party right now.

 

[#HBC | BadWolf]

Already started

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

CURSES.

The first one to rectify this insolence will be permitted a continued existence.

The rest of this puny forum administration will be dropped into the shark tank.

That doesn't sound well thought-out whatsoever...

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I never understand how to get people to follow me when I got the rights read.

Nor how to understand proper set-up analysis.

 

[Evil Eye]

you really shouldn't look at it as "people aren't following me even though I have the right read" while playing though. Like, yeah, you can look back on it and sometimes that will be the case, but in the moment absolutely nothing is guaranteed

in fact the certainty you tend to convey in yourself might be part of why people have a hard time trusting your judgment , since you tend to act just as sure of yourself in your wrong moments (your case on mentos in Lost Almost-Mafia) as in your right ones.

It's like you don't really show a spectrum of belief/concreteness, does that make sense at all? There's never a vibe of malleability in your beliefs, or like a sense that your current top suspect is any more suspicious to you than your last top suspect, who might have been town.Just always... this is what I think, so listen to me. Which is fine and dandy if you're always right, but you're not -- no one is.

 

[Evil Eye]

....inb4 "take it to the critique thread, guys"

 

[Dooms]

Reported for spamming the social. Take it to the critique thread, guys.

 

[Evil Eye]

yeah ok there dekuu

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I guess if we didn't KNOW then Joey's gender would be about as ambiguous as Dekuu's.

 

[Dooms]

dekuu

This is an Official Statement Report™ from The Smash World Forums® Reporting Committee©.

Dear user "Evil Eye,"
You have been REPORTED™ due to breaking of the Smash World Forums® Global Rules™ Version 7.1. Rules broken at hand: Under Section 1, titled "No Spam," for future reference, please DO NOT under ANY CIRCUMSTANCE spam threads using your Smash World Forums® Account.

Smash World Forums® Moderators may now proceed to INFRACT™ you accordingly.

Sincerely,
Morrigan of The Hills™®©
The Smash World Forums® Reporting Committee© Chairman.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

The Smash World Forums®'

This really bothers me.

 

[ranmaru]

@Mastermind Superfiend:

You bring shame upon my title. There's only one Mastermind here.

I will destroy you!

Ignored. (not ignore list)

Destroy this.

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

I didn't finish reading BSP's post (that nerfed attention span yo), but I read most of it. Honestly though, EE pretty much covered everything I would have said and more.

Bardull, you should probably explain in detail your reasoning for thinking that having Riddle town over BSP was logical.

EE, you're a smart man.

 

[BarDulL]

Man, but that would take forever though. Like, I'd literally have to go through and compare their styles of play, intent, all this shiz, and I almost can't be bothered to do it.

Ahhhh **** it, I'll do it tonight.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

you really shouldn't look at it as "people aren't following me even though I have the right read" while playing though. Like, yeah, you can look back on it and sometimes that will be the case, but in the moment absolutely nothing is guaranteed

in fact the certainty you tend to convey in yourself might be part of why people have a hard time trusting your judgment , since you tend to act just as sure of yourself in your wrong moments (your case on mentos in Lost Almost-Mafia) as in your right ones.

It's like you don't really show a spectrum of belief/concreteness, does that make sense at all? There's never a vibe of malleability in your beliefs, or like a sense that your current top suspect is any more suspicious to you than your last top suspect, who might have been town.Just always... this is what I think, so listen to me. Which is fine and dandy if you're always right, but you're not -- no one is.

If people don't think I am confident or sure of myself, why will they listen to me then?

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

If people don't think I am confident or sure of myself, why will they listen to me then?

In the games I've played with you, your foses seemed to be entirely for transparent things, anti-town play, or focused on me when I was town ie FF IX mafia. I listen to people if I think that their case has merit or takes on an interesting approach that I think mafia would actually slip in. I don't care how confident they are as long as their case stands to reason.

 

[ranmaru]

What rr said.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

In the games I've played with you, your foses seemed to be entirely for transparent things, anti-town play, or focused on me when I was town ie FF IX mafia. I listen to people if I think that their case has merit or takes on an interesting approach that I think mafia would actually slip in. I don't care how confident they are as long as their case stands to reason.

I mean, even when I have this down.

It still happens.

Riddle having non-committal/transparent play, which I pointed out multiple times, no one tried to do anything about it.

 

[BarDulL]

If people don't think I am confident or sure of myself, why will they listen to me then?

He's saying that if you always seem sure of yourself (even when proven wrong), people can't trust your confidence because you lack credibility.

On a related note, if your credibility is called into question, but you don't answer the call or don't answer it in a convincing fashion, then people will eat you up for it and become skeptical of you and your assertions. Oh, and by convincing, I mean presenting a conclusion based on a line of logic (without holes) that most can agree with to be an accurate observation of the facts.

If you're constantly certain of yourself and correct in your assertions, then you fit the role to lead, but only if you're consistently right and operating within the majority's interests as far as they can see. If you're consistently wrong, you'll get eaten up and the second in command will likely take over. Such is the endless struggle of social hierarchies.

AFAIK, you didn't really go into why Riddle's play was transparent or non-committal (in fact, I don't remember you ever saying this. I remember you saying something along the lines of "Riddle is scum, lets go" but not a lot of substantiation in this regard.)

Edit: alright, I'm finally buckling down and going through each of Riddle's posts. I'll post my analysis in the PB thread.

 

[Evil Eye]

See now, Ruy, I think you mighta missed my point a lil bit

I'm not saying "don't be confident" as that would definitely be the antithesis of your desire to get people to listen to you. My point was a grander one about how your suspicions and confidence never seem to lie on a spectrum. You just kinda put it out there and want people to listen to you, most of the time. Sometimes you put a case up but that's not the standard I've seen.

But that's all immaterial, my point is simply that you have historically been just as confident about your bad reads as your good ones. Say you're in a 4man mylo and you've got a top suspect. This top suspect is scum. But your last top suspect was town, and errbody mislynched said prior top suspect, and that's why you're in mylo, and then mafia leaves you alive for it figuring they can run train over you if you get 'em or that you'll make the wrong call or both.

Let's say I'm one of the other townies and the other is, eh, Glyph or something. Let's say we also had the last top suspect on our shortlist and as such helped to mislynch him. For players like Glyph and myself (and I'm talking about playstyle things here, not skill level, again that's immaterial) reevaluation after being wrong is a big thing. We'd have reservations about going with our next best gut instinct because the game is at stake and we were wrong last time, so we'd tread carefully.

But with what I've seen of you in your town game (and we both know I have seen a lot of it), your new top suspect is going to know they're on your pike before long and you'll be just as certain as you were last time. This is just the thing. I'm not saying you can't or wouldn't be cautious, of course, or even that you can't change your mind (I don't think I've seen it, but you've probably done it) but my point is that there's never a sense that your suspicions have a spectrum at all. You just latch on and gogo. And again, this is consistent with both your correct calls and your mistakes.

Alright, you played Lost, and we both suspected mentos there. That game's got a good example. I pressed Acrostic for his interaction with mentos, as I thought it was very bad. I thought it was very possible that he was scum. But i just wasn't that sure. Not enough to vote, not enough to FoS. So I just put it out there, pressured. Tried to see what he would say about himself and what others would say about the interaction. Some people agreed with my point and voiced as much, and at least one (Rajam) even asked me why I wasn't voting for Acro. This is despite having been totally transparent about the wishywashy foundations of my suspicions.

And the wishwashery ended up being the way to go, too, because Acrostic was town. As such, I was able to feel pretty good about the fact that I never pushed him forward for a lynching. And furthermore, I feel that moderation of my own impulses in this manner, and acknowledging my personal fallibility in what wasn't a very strong suspicion, is the kind of thing that leaves people willing to trust my judgment.

Which also makes people pique up and pay attention when I rarely do go "think we got scum gogogo". Because that's not always my attitude, and that's not always how I push my agenda. **** falls on a spectrum, and acknowledging that -- coupled with a little humility -- shows a level of rationality and logic that people can appreciate. And take seriously.

 

[Mastermind]

Do not listen to this boorish imbecile.

Command your minions, and if they do not listen, drop them into the shark tank.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

If people don't think I am confident or sure of myself, why will they listen to me then?

You're not showing a lack of confidence, you're showing your actual thought process. It's hard to believe you can have someone as hard town or scum five pages into D1.