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Pokechu

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my people

i've abandoned you all for so long

but dudes and dudettes, this semester been ROUGH LOOOOOOOOL I took a calculus test yesterday and I'm pretty sure I failed... that test was brutal to say the least. I think part of it was the difficulty but part of it was me being dumb and going in shock at the first exam of the semester haha

but life goes on :joyful:

giraffelasergun giraffelasergun since we're both mods now, does that mean we're married?
News flash

I passed!! With a 77

But I passed!! Hah! I’m kind of bright! :^)
 

Pokechu

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Pokechu Pokechu What scared off all the NZoners, and why aren't you terrified
Yeah the NZoners all collectively left after the cheating fiasco since a lot of them felt for Natz. Then the very few who stayed kind of lost interest overtime since everyone else left :laugh:

But mafia is too cool to ditch haha and what’s happened is in the past. I can definitely see why they all left but I’ve made friends here so leaving didn’t make much sense for me. In hindsight Barney could've handled it better but he's not a professional haha. I feel super bad for how we treated him after though, I hope he returns soon :/

And I frequent other parts of the forum so if I really wanted to see someone, I could just post where they’re at LOL
 

Thirdkoopa

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It might be a good idea to have signups for a fairly normal (semi open?) game running at the same time as VGM2. Signups for a barnstorm-mod game alone might not be the best representation of player interest.
it's what I've been saying for a bit, since I know that B. Games are a bit unusual

(I just need one more person... just one more~)
 

Fire Emblemier

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Pokechu Pokechu What scared off all the NZoners, and why aren't you terrified
Yeah the NZoners all collectively left after the cheating fiasco since a lot of them felt for Natz. Then the very few who stayed kind of lost interest overtime since everyone else left :laugh:

But mafia is too cool to ditch haha and what’s happened is in the past. I can definitely see why they all left but I’ve made friends here so leaving didn’t make much sense for me. In hindsight Barney could've handled it better but he's not a professional haha. I feel super bad for how we treated him after though, I hope he returns soon :/

And I frequent other parts of the forum so if I really wanted to see someone, I could just post where they’re at LOL
Those who stayed after that left for other reasons as well. Though, personally I lost my interest in mafia for time being. Mostly due to juggling my time with other things.
 

#HBC | Acrostic

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19 days into 2019 I decided to start playing mafia again. 19 days into 2019 I was noticed and invited into a Discord server. 19 days into 2019 I discovered that they were role sharing in a mafia game as a small group. 19 days into 2019 I managed to inquire about the value of playing mafia when the roles are already known to a select group of people making it a game within a game. 19 days into 2019 I managed to get kicked out of Discord and feel like I wasted 19 days giving mafia a chance. 19 days into 2019 I have reaffirmed to not play mafia again.
"What is this guy's problem getting so worked up over cheating. Everyone is doing it. It's just mafia."
 

#HBC | Acrostic

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Pokechu Pokechu If you guys are sympathizing with her, then you're enabling behavior that will hurt another group down the road. I know no one really gives a **** about mafia, but you have to understand that people who usually commit major misdemeanors have a prior history of committing more minor ones that they basically got a slap on the wrist for with no major ramifications. I know Discord and chat groups have resulted in social interaction on the internet being more or less echo chambers for personal behavior e.g. if Dgames doesn't like you just join another mafia subgroup that will diddle you and tell you what a wonderful person you are. However, ameliorating it as a group by essentially having the Nzone group just **** off from Dgames means that there might be some residual psychological rationale that Dgames was in the wrong for calling out such degenerate behavior.

I know as a group, if you guys have a Discord or not that you could give **** all about anything because it's just the internet. But I'm genuinely tired of having to do the heavy lifting when I see these people on the backend when these issues escalate to actual symptomatic problems or behaviors that cause these people to require extensive in-patient hospitalization and they have no one to be serve as a medical proxy because they burned bridges with people in real life in favor of getting coddled by randoms who will affirm their choices, but not show up for the consequences. In one case, the person was so sure that randomusername @ x service was going to be there to give them a ride back to their home. The kicker isn't that the person didn't show up, it was that their living situation was nonexistent, they were homeless. So case management/social services did extensive lifting in order to create a home situation for them and a plan where they would get food and housing for the year.

I'm basically tired of dealing with people with major ****ing problems because no one, not a single one holds them responsible for any form of accountability. And I know why it happens, it is because you don't want to lose them to another group after you've invested so much time and memories together. However, if these individuals do get upset and decide to **** off from your friend group because they feel like they are being patronized, then that's good. Because if social groups actually held individuals accountable then they would have no choice to realize that their **** stinks and they will stop the behavior once they realize it is something that should be addressed.
 
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Maven89

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Oh boy this again.

Most of the concern was that many Nzoners didn't believ Natz/Lonewolf cheated, and felt that Bard was just angry he lost a game and rallied a giant witch hunt against them.

Bard definitely didn't handle it very well, but the evidence was pretty damn conclusive anyways. Unless you think someone telling you to "Sit Down" means that your vote was removed is a logical jump.
 

Thirdkoopa

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As someone that was an outsider to both factions: I think it was how the situation was handled that was the big problem. Coming in and going 'Yeah so we're permabanning these two people from the whole site; also they're the same person." is not the most tactful way to handle a cheating situation like that.

I've done the rounds for years with administration/moderation, and it's typically better to keep cases in private and in the gentlest manner possible (even if the punishment is severe) or else anything said in the site's manner can be used against you. Even if you ban someone that is, say, posting porn on the site (a rule that gets you permabanned on the spot), you don't handle it by having a public thread or saying anything vitriolic to them.
 

Pokechu

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Pokechu Pokechu If you guys are sympathizing with her, then you're enabling behavior that will hurt another group down the road. I know no one really gives a **** about mafia, but you have to understand that people who usually commit major misdemeanors have a prior history of committing more minor ones that they basically got a slap on the wrist for with no major ramifications. I know Discord and chat groups have resulted in social interaction on the internet being more or less echo chambers for personal behavior e.g. if Dgames doesn't like you just join another mafia subgroup that will diddle you and tell you what a wonderful person you are. However, ameliorating it as a group by essentially having the Nzone group just **** off from Dgames means that there might be some residual psychological rationale that Dgames was in the wrong for calling out such degenerate behavior.


I know as a group, if you guys have a Discord or not that you could give **** all about anything because it's just the internet. But I'm genuinely tired of having to do the heavy lifting when I see these people on the backend when these issues escalate to actual symptomatic problems or behaviors that cause these people to require extensive in-patient hospitalization and they have no one to be serve as a medical proxy because they burned bridges with people in real life in favor of getting coddled by randoms who will affirm their choices, but not show up for the consequences. In one case, the person was so sure that randomusername @ x service was going to be there to give them a ride back to their home. The kicker isn't that the person didn't show up, it was that their living situation was nonexistent, they were homeless. So case management/social services did extensive lifting in order to create a home situation for them and a plan where they would get food and housing for the year.


I'm basically tired of dealing with people with major ****ing problems because no one, not a single one holds them responsible for any form of accountability. And I know why it happens, it is because you don't want to lose them to another group after you've invested so much time and memories together. However, if these individuals do get upset and decide to **** off from your friend group because they feel like they are being patronized, then that's good. Because if social groups actually held individuals accountable then they would have no choice to realize that their **** stinks and they will stop the behavior once they realize it is something that should be addressed.
Howdy howdy Acrostic!! I've been lurking this board and I haven’t been posting since this semester’s been tough, but I really appreciate your input and I respect your stance on this. Though I don't remember the details clearly since it happened more than a year ago, I think the situation was a lot more complex than it seemed. Maven ninja'd some of my points here but I'm going to respond anyways out of respect.

Some felt that Kon could be implicated but the general consensus was that Natz had no ill will in any of this, so many disliked the way Bard handled the situation. Advocating a whole-site ban and that Kon and Natz were the same user is ridiculous and slighted a lot of users. Personally, I’m in this group. I didn't keep up with the situation as much as I should've but I didn't think Natz deserved to be treated the way she was. This was a multi-layered situation and that's where I take concern with your call to have no sympathy for her. Cheating isn't something to take lightly so I applaud Bard for taking action and swinging the hammer, but the methods and direction he was choosing to do so were extreme. Even if you agree with the punishment (a whole site-wide ban), there are better ways to mitigate the situation than public humiliation.

Alongside this, this cheating fiasco is just where things came to a head. Most of the NZoners didn't think they meshed well with the DGamers and found them to be abrasive. That and the change of culture with the DGamers (our games had CRAZY roles LOL) created a divide that led to NZoners dropping out of the club or feeling unmotivated to continue on, so when the Natz & Kon vs Bard case happened, most were already to the point where they didn't care enough to keep playing. This was just the final nail in the coffin to quit.

Cheating ruins the platform for everyone involved, but in layered situations like these, caution needs to be taken. The way it was handled perplexed a lot of the playerbase, and the players are why we have these games in the first place, right? You are entirely correct that it's when people are condemned for their behavior that they will fix it or quit it, but that shouldn't mean players can't be jaded by how the behavior is condemned.

I just wanted to put in my $0.02, I can still see where you're coming from with your stance and I want to thank you again for your input!! It's highly appreciated! And anyone with a dog avatar is cool in my book ;)
 

UtopianPoyzin

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I was not around for the fiasco, nor do I plan on inputting into something that I don't have a history with.

But, I can still pick on Pokechu for being gone forever and not playing mafia with me :mad:

I just wanted to put in my $0.02
Nobody wants your filthy money that you probably stole from a homeless dog. While you surely didn't, it's the existence of the possibility that makes me not trust your two dirty pennies.
 
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Pokechu

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I was not around for the fiasco, nor do I plan on inputting into something that I don't have a history with.

But, I can still pick on Pokechu for being gone forever and not playing mafia with me :mad:



Nobody wants your filthy money that you probably stole from a homeless dog. While you surely didn't, it's the existence of the possibility that makes me not trust your two dirty pennies.
It's you!!! I missed you! LOL

To start, I didn't steal my two cents from a homeless dog. I would never! Shame on you. I stole it from a homeless cat! There's a difference EmbarrassEmbarrass

But this semester was TUFF!!!! Not tough. TUFF!!! I remember posting here that I got a 77 on my first Calculus test in the semester. I pulled out a 4.0 season though!!!! I got a 91.6 in Calculus overall, that stuff is HARD!!! I couldn't imagine trying to handle mafia when I can't even handle basic algebra :(:(:(

Next semester should be much easier though and if it isn't I'll make it easier by actually studying properly. So I'm expecting to be able to join a game!!! I need to join one soon because it's been too long :^(
 

#HBC | Acrostic

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Pokechu Pokechu From Bard's input on this from a year ago, it seems like he went through an exhaustive process. What happened on Epicmafia where cheating was beginning to run rampant was that for some time a group of moderators were specifically designated to document all the games, run through them, and write comments on how each game was conducive towards the bigger picture of cheating. Then they would post a pastebin in order to establish a rationale as to why they were suspending a player from a competitive game. However, when it comes to cheating within mafia, if no one accused of cheating outright confesses then the best a moderation team can come to in terms of a cheating accusation will always be an approximation. In most cases people will outright deny the allegations and act offended, this has been routine especially for players who were trying to establish themselves in Epicmafia and wanted to fit into the most active group of people who were for a brief period of time, somewhat competitive wrt the game. There were very few cases in which individuals after being called out would outright admit to cheating and that it was a lapse in personal judgment. On a more broad level, how often have you seen people on the internet admit to being in the wrong even when they objectively get information wrong or incorrect?

When it comes to continuous variables you will never actually approach a fixed number like 1 or 2. You will end up getting very close to that whole number, however that number does not actually exist as a reachable value. However, what needs to be understood is that the impossibility of reaching 1 doesn't deny the functionality of treating 1 like a limit. Perhaps there is the potential for false positive which is why the method must be exhaustive, however the presence of an absolute conclusion shouldn't be an absolute necessity when it comes to closing a case. Does a judge see a gang banger or the muscle when he shoots up a corner? Is his blood on the victims and the gun conclusive enough to charge him with the case? Does having witnesses who corroborate the case with someone who had matching features with him at the time necessarily prove that he was the one there as the scene of the crime? These are all parts to frame the larger picture, neither part is sufficient and it is a logical fallacy to argue that combining likely parts necessitates forming the whole picture. However, collecting these pieces of information and collating them provides what in all likelihood is the best approximation that can be perceived to form the case as a whole.

Turning this framework from a process oriented discovery to an ad hom on the person who probably spent the most time on the case has often been a tactic used by actual cheaters to defer from actually having to provide a logical defense. In addition, in the case of forum mafia or the internet in general the punishments in the broad scope of the world aren't actually that punitive. There are going to be plenty of times when people are given false positives because there is no omniscient system to share only the truth and filter out the noise. The answer isn't to get emotional or upset, but to establish a logical line of progress. It's apparent to me that attempting to bridge social platforms is something that very few people do anymore once they develop their own "home base." More likely than not, I have seen people treat these as safe spaces and the way they act there is so fundamentally different from how they act on other places. The way they present things as well is also drastically different. And sadly, I know this through having been an extensive insider that was interested in how people interact with people who they think are their "close friends" v "randoms" when I've treated them in the same way with a sock account. Having an innate interest in human psychology and interacting with a struggling individuals in both professional and social settings has made me realize the deep flaws that humans have inside themselves and the struggles of keeping it real in a failing system.

If Natz truly is a victim of Bardull, then what type of resolution comes from basically badmouthing him among a private group of people that are already at default going to be sympathetic to her? On a more broad level there ought to be more people who push their peers into realizing that systems do have flaws and if they don't challenge them head on then they are losing out on a great deal of learning that comes from being slighted. I was racially profiled and falsely suspended with a cop who clearly just saw the right age, the right race, and the right place when making the decision to close the case. But I understand why they failed and that the reasons are more systemic and systematic than the cop himself being a racist or someone who had johns about being called into an Elementary School for a ****ty report from a parent about school violence after implementation of zero tolerance. Does Natz need to make an effort to branch out? **** no. But I can't help but agree with the position of Dgames that when someone maintains radio silence on the issue that they were either complicit or they gave **** all about the community to actually mount some form of a follow up response.

Yes, it sucks to be slighted. But everyone has been slighted since birth, no one chose to be here. And yet, here we are.
 
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