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[#HBC | Ryker]

You're right, that's a thing! About damn time too.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

I don't need. I want. I'm human.

Is that wrong?

I want a car. Should I steal one? Is that wrong? I am human btw, just so you know.

#virtualconsole

And this is why, in the end, I at least respect your position on the subject.

 

[Raziek]

I want a car. Should I steal one? Is that wrong? I am human btw, just so you know.

And this is why, in the end, I at least respect your position on the subject.

Not a reasonable comparison.

Stealing a car takes something physical, tangible away from the other person. +Car for Raz, -Car for Victim.

Pirating a game is +Game for Raz, no change for 'victim'.

The only thing the victim loses is POTENTIAL money. (The money that I would have paid them, if I could) That's why I only choose to pirate if no alternative is presented.

 

[#HBC | J]

Raz you are saying it's a victimless crime and therefore it is alright. That isn't true nor does it make it right.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Out of curiosity, did he ever say it was right?

 

[#HBC | J]

Well not particularly, but he is implying that it isn't "wrong".

 

[Raziek]

I pointing out that it was victimless was solely to debunk Gorf's comparison to stealing a car, or any other physical object.

I don't advocate piracy in general, but if it is victimless, and no reasonable alternative is presented, I do not think it is morally wrong.

If one COULD reasonably purchase a game legally, and then chose to pirate it instead, I think that is wrong and immoral.

But I don't think it is wrong for someone to pirate a digital copy of a game that they otherwise could not obtain. (Due to lack of localization, or extreme prices)

It's for that reason that, if Earthbound wasn't on the virtual console, I would say pirating a copy is okay, because the only people who see money from the purchase of the carts at this point are re-sellers and reproducers. It doesn't harm the developer, and there's no other reasonable means to obtain a copy. You shouldn't have to pay $200 to someone OTHER than the developer if there's an alternative.

Support the developer whenever possible, but if that's not an option, piracy is not strictly immoral. That is my viewpoint.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Gamestop is struggling? This is news to me.

Last I heard they've been making a killing on the Used Game market.

several gamestops in my area have closed. To be fair, there used to be a lot of them. There were 2 of them in the same mall, at one point.

The fact that they are such a big freaking ripoff in the used game market is simultaneously saving them, and killing them. Anyone who is savvy doesn't deal with them, but most parents don't know any better.

 

[#HBC | J]

Well the used game market isn't killing them. They have a monopoly on all used games and truly own it. The fact that some GameStops are closing down in some districts is because of individual poor performance. However, the big districts are still adding new GameStops in a tons of places. (Mainly on the WC and EC).

@ Raziek : I humbly disagree with what you are saying. I guess you are entitled to your opinion, but it somewhat makes me question your morals. The problem I have is that you are saying "Since there is no alternative to get what I want, I will steal the game since I believe their is no tangible victim." You do not need the game to live and mainly because you want it. I mean if piracy was not immoral or inherently wrong, there would not be laws against it. I mean the same argument you are using can be used for foreign films/etc.

 

[Raziek]

@ Raziek : I humbly disagree with what you are saying. I guess you are entitled to your opinion, but it somewhat makes me question your morals. The problem I have is that you are saying "Since there is no alternative to get what I want, I will steal the game since I believe their is no tangible victim." You do not need the game to live and mainly because you want it. I mean if piracy was not immoral or inherently wrong, there would not be laws against it. I mean the same argument you are using can be used for foreign films/etc.

The bolded in particular is false, and is exactly why I feel it permissible at times.

Anti-piracy laws exist for one reason only: To protect the economic livelihood of the musician or creator of the product.

Piracy, in these cases, harms the livelihood of these people, and thus the laws make sense to enforce. We want people to keep creating cool things, so we make sure people can't get those cool things for free. That, in turn, provides incentive for the creators of the music/product to continue to produce it.

When it is no longer possible (or meaningful) to protect the creator of the product, those laws no longer matter.

If we can no longer pay Nintendo for a copy of Earthbound (for example. I know we CAN in this case), what harm does it do to pirate it? Should we argue that the secondary sellers, who had no hand in the creation of the product, be protected? If so, why?

If the protection that those laws have provided is no longer meaningful (because there's no longer anything to protect), then violating the law becomes effectively meaningless. It's the equivalent of punching someone who's already dead.

 

[Gova]

I'm pretty sure there are laws against punching dead people.

Edit: that aren't meaningless.

 

[#HBC | J]

I'm sorry Raz, but you aren't going to convince me that an illegal action is alright to do. You are blaming the second hand sellers overcharging for a product that is highly desired. That's retail and sales. That still gives no right to bypass that and "steal" a game through piracy just because you think the system is unfair.

When it is no longer possible (or meaningful) to protect the creator of the product, those laws no longer matter.

This is a false point. If you pirate the game, regardless, you are stealing from the company itself. There is no way around this fact no matter how you look at it. This law does not have a "well, if you look at it this way, it's alright."

Look, I'm not trying to convince you to change your ways. I am just saying that what I think you are doing is immoral/illegal to me and I disagree with what you are saying. Go ahead and pirate if you so choose. No one is perfect and if that is one of your vices than so be it.

It's like me and drinking. I enjoy the occassional glass of wine with meals, yet that is still illegal and I know this. However, I was born and raised in England so I come from a different understanding of alchohol due to laws being different. It's a vice and a "law" I choose to look at differently then others. However, the difference is the victim in the situation is myself.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

This is a false point. If you pirate the game, regardless, you are stealing from the company itself.

Noo.... Stealing is if you take something someone else owns. Pirating is copying it. Is it pirating when a friend comes over, gives you his Age of Empires copy, you burn it on a new CD, and play from that? That's literally pirating, and I've been doing it since I was like 10.

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

Side-bar: The CEO of Gamestop is also CEO of Barnes and Nobles.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I'm sorry Raz, but you aren't going to convince me that an illegal action is alright to do.

also this is disgusting. You let the law decide your morals?

 

[#HBC | J]

Noo.... Stealing is if you take something someone else owns. Pirating is copying it. Is it pirating when a friend comes over, gives you his Age of Empires copy, you burn it on a new CD, and play from that? That's literally pirating, and I've been doing it since I was like 10.

Yes, that is pirating haha.

Side-bar: The CEO of Gamestop is also CEO of Barnes and Nobles.

Did not know this factoid. He's probably doing very well then considering competition is slim.

 

[Raziek]

I like the moral shaming you feel the need to impress on me.

Noo.... Stealing is if you take something someone else owns. Pirating is copying it.

This.

also this is disgusting. You let the law decide your morals?

And this.

Thanks Doushi-bro.

 

[Gova]

Pirating is counterfeiting. It's not really stealing but most people don't know the word for counterfeit so they refer to it as stealing.

 

[BarDulL]

i support emulating games that undergo japan-specific localization; i've played through FE6/Mother 3/Ace Attorney Investigations 2 through emulation and have essentially felt no remorse in that accord. however if there was an american release i would definitely buy each of those games.

for those who don't know, it is ILLEGAL for certified japanese sellers to export video games over seas. this is why amazon japan will not directly ship items to you or even to marshy's military base in okinawa because it is on american soil. so even if you were to somehow get your hands on a japanese GBA and a japanese FE6 copy for instance, those two products really shouldn't be in your hands in the first place technically speaking. the only reason why you have them is because the products weren't directly exported from japan, but rather they were shipped from japan, then sold in the U.S., which is a moral/legal loophole in and of itself.

i can understand the moral concerns for when people illegally download music or video games they don't own when they can just as easily buy them and support the artist/creator. but when there's no legal method of directly supporting the artists without abusing legal loopholes, i feel it's fair game to emulate because the creators aren't losing a single dime. if anything, the games subsequently get more exposure over here as a result.

 

[#HBC | J]

also this is disgusting. You let the law decide your morals?

Not necessarily. Pirating is illegal, therefore wrong. That is a fact. The fact that an illegal action is trying to be made as "moral" is just something I do not agree to.

@ Raziek : I am not moral shaming you. I even try and make that clear, but thanks for turning the conversation petty. I am sorry that I do not agree with you on the matter of piracy, but it is wrong to pirate. I'll drop the conversation on my end if you choose to just ignore the other side of things.

 

[Raziek]

i can understand the moral concerns for when people illegally download music or video games they don't own when they can just as easily buy them and support the artist/creator. but when there's no legal method of directly supporting the artists without abusing legal loopholes, i feel it's fair game to emulate because the creators aren't losing a single dime. if anything, the games subsequently get more exposure over here as a result.

This is exactly how I feel.

Not necessarily. Pirating is illegal, therefore wrong. That is a fact. The fact that an illegal action is trying to be made as "moral" is just something I do not agree to.

@ Raziek : I am not moral shaming you. I even try and make that clear, but thanks for turning the conversation petty. I am sorry that I do not agree with you on the matter of piracy, but it is wrong to pirate. I'll drop the conversation on my end if you choose to just ignore the other side of things.

Illegal and wrong are not at all the same thing.

Gay marriage is illegal in many places. Is it wrong?

If you weren't trying to shame me, then what was the point of your last two paragraphs?

Look, I'm not trying to convince you to change your ways. I am just saying that what I think you are doing is immoral/illegal to me and I disagree with what you are saying. Go ahead and pirate if you so choose. No one is perfect and if that is one of your vices than so be it.

It's like me and drinking. I enjoy the occassional glass of wine with meals, yet that is still illegal and I know this. However, I was born and raised in England so I come from a different understanding of alchohol due to laws being different. It's a vice and a "law" I choose to look at differently then others. However, the difference is the victim in the situation is myself.

All this can serve to do is tell me I'm a bad person.

Further, you have disregarded the fact that it is NOT stealing, and chose not to tell me why those secondary sellers should be protected. You just said I'm gaming the system.

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

Did not know this factoid. He's probably doing very well then considering competition is slim.

The Barnes at my University used to be our local campus bookstore and the Gamestop at the mall used to be an Electronics Boutique or something of that nature. If you look into Riggio's early career you can tell that the guy was a pure entrepreneur and a complete shark in how he acquired Barnes and then propertized the name. The competition was bought since book retail hadn't exploded into the industry it is now thanks to the necessity of having a college degree as a resume acccessory. Although books are trending towards digital format much faster than games and I know that the Nook according to 2012 market data is performing poorly against Kindle readers and Amazon's digital books. Games haven't become as popular as digital books due to a lack of a competitive pricing model against physical copies imo. There are also other issues with digital games being used for the convenience of game producers to send rushed products that contain glitches and require downloadable patch updates, portions of a complete product like GTA V being sold without online gameplay offered at launch, and selling games at full price for an early access of a game that has almost no playability.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

There's an advantage to people pirating. For one, a lot of people who pirate games do so because they don't have the money to spend on games in the first place. So what do these people do? They download your game, and if it's awesome, TELL THEIR FRIENDS TO GET IT TOO. FREE. ****ING. MARKETING. You're not even losing out on money, they weren't planning on buying it in the first place! The issue with pirating is that our industry model is still based around bricks and mortar while being plunged in the depth of the internet, effectively making pirating a lot worse than it could be, because our model is outdated. Ever heard of Sick of Sarah? They got big off of pirating. What about Steam? Ever hear people who release games on Steam complain about pirating? Not really. The only type of person who actually takes away something from the industry by pirating is the person who usually buys games but has switched to pirating all of them, and even that is somewhat solvable by adding online content to the game only accessible when it is bought, like Notch (article below) did.



Articles:
http://notch.tumblr.com/post/1121596044/how-piracy-works
http://www.ign.com/articles/2011/07/27/is-piracy-good

 

[Gova]

But Ramses, what if I pirate a game and tell everyone it sucks?

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I don't buy into the idea that piracy is "good" for even a second. That is 100% people trying to make themselves feel better for pirating ****. Free advertising my ass.

I don't think pirating is nearly as big a deal as the companies who get their **** pirated would lead you to believe it is, though.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

But Ramses, what if I pirate a game and tell everyone it sucks?

reported

I don't buy into the idea that piracy is "good" for even a second. That is 100% people trying to make themselves feel better for pirating ****. Free advertising my ***.

Oh, like Notch, and Team Meat! Right on, friend, such good judgment. Oh, and also me, who is currently undergoing education to become an independent game developer, I sure as hell approve of piracy JUST because I pirated... wait, what did I pirate? In the last year, I've pirated one game, Risk of Rain, saved <5 bucks on that one, thank Jesus! Well I'll be damned, good generalization! Really hit the mark there, friend. 100%! The dream!

 

[BarDulL]

on the topic of acquiring things one technically shouldn't be able to legally acquire, look what came in today:

swag

 

[Raziek]

Color me jelly, that's awesome.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Color me jelly, that's awesome.

qft thats cool as hell, also nice wallpaper

 

[BarDulL]

qft thats cool as hell, also nice wallpaper

my father is an artist and was randomly like "i'm going to draw a map on this wall, hope that's cool" and it actually turned out really well LOL

 

[#HBC | Joker]

reported

Oh, like Notch, and Team Meat! Right on, friend, such good judgment. Oh, and also me, who is currently undergoing education to become an independent game developer, I sure as hell approve of piracy JUST because I pirated... wait, what did I pirate? In the last year, I've pirated one game, Risk of Rain, saved <5 bucks on that one, thank Jesus! Well I'll be damned, good generalization! Really hit the mark there, friend. 100%! The dream!

Well, all you've done is admit that you do, in fact, pirate ****, so we'll throw you out as an example right there.

Then we have both Notch, and Team Meat, who are not marketing experts in the slightest. They're people, with opinions. Opinions that you read in some ****ing articles, and presented them as facts. They're probably also people who have pirated video games before, but neither of us can prove that either way, so that's a wash.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Well, all you've done is admit that you do, in fact, pirate ****, so we'll throw you out as an example right there.

Then we have both Notch, and Team Meat, who are not marketing experts in the slightest. They're people, with opinions. Opinions that you read in some ****ing articles, and presented them as facts. They're probably also people who have pirated video games before, but neither of us can prove that either way, so that's a wash.

Would you stop treating pirates as some lowly scum who don't pay for anything at all? Why do people pirate? It's because their expenses have to go somewhere else, or they don't want to spend money on something they don't have. I bet you most of the pirates are spending their money elsewhere, maybe like things they do need. I'm not saying that the practice is something we should look up to, and everyone should go pirate right now for anything they want, but you need to consider the other spectrum before making a judgement. I pirate. I admit it. I pirated a CD I wanted in FLAC format. How much was that CD? About 9 dollars. Is the world gonna go insane because I didn't spend 9 dollars on a CD I wanted? Who's to say that I won't buy it later if I like it? I'll tell you right now that I have plans to start a CD Collection and buy physical copies, but I can't right now because I'm but a lone 19 year old who works one day on minimum wage.

Trust me, most of the people who pirate are making investments elsewhere, just like I am.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

You're missing the point entirely.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Would you stop treating pirates as some lowly scum who don't pay for anything at all? Why do people pirate? It's because their expenses have to go somewhere else, or they don't want to spend money on something they don't have. I bet you most of the pirates are spending their money elsewhere, maybe like things they do need. I'm not saying that the practice is something we should look up to, and everyone should go pirate right now for anything they want, but you need to consider the other spectrum before making a judgement. I pirate. I admit it. I pirated a CD I wanted in FLAC format. How much was that CD? About 9 dollars. Is the world gonna go insane because I didn't spend 9 dollars on a CD I wanted? Who's to say that I won't buy it later if I like it? I'll tell you right now that I have plans to start a CD Collection and buy physical copies, but I can't right now because I'm but a lone 19 year old who works one day on minimum wage.

Trust me, most of the people who pirate are making investments elsewhere, just like I am.

dude, what are you talking about? I didn't say any of the things you're accusing me of. Show me the part of that quote where I said I gave a **** if people pirated things, or that I even thought it was a big deal?

Sounds like someone has a guilty conscience about pirating that CD tho, and is trying really hard to justify it.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

I was being totally facetious and playing off your word choice of 'intimacy'.

Well, yes. But the best humour comes from the heart.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Sounds like someone has a guilty conscience about pirating that CD tho, and is trying really hard to justify it.

whoa there freud crawl back to your cave now

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

guys i didn't mean to start an atrocious gamestop/piracy conversation
but

if piracy was not immoral or inherently wrong, there would not be laws against it.

whoa now
careful where you're directing this conversation

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

Piracy is only justifiable if you're pirating all of King Crimson's discography to piss off Robert Fripp

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

@Red Ryu