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DG Archive & MVPs

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Evil Eye

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Pretty curious as to which one of you said that. And also confused, because it bolds two distinct points ("This is the antithesis of MVP play" ; "I'd love to see RR get some dice some day and it'll probably happen at some point"). Assuming the latter...

If RR, nah man. You keep on improvin' like you have been and it's a definite guarantee.

If John ..... well, there are no words.
 

#HBC | marshy

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Kevin got mvp, despite the fact that he was a gunsmith that gave a gun to scum and if macman hadn't accidentally shot the wrong person would have cost town the game.
to be fair kevin had pushed the prior scum lynches through and it wouldve been a loss only because other protown players decided to be complete *******es and try to lynch obvtown j after mislynching kevin despite macman being scum on kevins town flip being by FAR the likeliest scenario. some of the worst play ive ever seen. i dont care to analyze the merit of that chosen mvp but its outright wrong that youre ignoring the atrociousness of town after kevins death and publicly staking the would-be loss on him when town had more than enough ammo on scumacman to rectify kevins gun
 

#HBC | J

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I don't remember a game recently where a faction that lost and still got MvP since Inception Mafia.

If town would have lost Celeb Rehab, I would have been mad salty.
 

#HBC | J

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I should have remembered that....I gave it to him...lol. That game just feels forever ago and blocked out of my mind due to the D1 that game had.
 

#HBC | Joker

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I didn't say anything before, cuz I didn't wanna contribute to this high school drama bull****, but it seems to have spun out of control anyway. BarDulL deserves MVP for puzzlebobble, Ryu doesn't. Them both getting it could only be a legit call if they played equally awesome.

They did not

Ryu played well, but he blatantly got outplayed by BarDulL. You only need to look at the last day to see this.

It's called MVP. That stands for Most Valuable Player. That first word says it all. Most. BarDulL was leagues more valuable to his team than Ryu was to his. Their play simply wasn't even close to the same level, as evidenced by BarDulL directly outplaying him.

I'm not even trying to say Ryu played poorly, because BarDulL outplayed us all. I'm just saying there's no legit explanation for rewarding both players as MVP, when we can actually point to things as evidence that BarDulL was the superior player at practically every turn.
 

John2k4

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Someone told me to check here; I usually don't look at the DG subsection (going off of what I'm subscribed to).

EE I feel what you are saying. I put that opinion thing out there because I was reading and trying to act based on what people were saying.

Here's the thing - I would feel really bad to say "Oh nope sorry, no one else wants you to have MvP so Imma revoke that thanks". That's why I've stayed solid on that initial decision.

EE's passing it off as "oh friends well that explains it" really bugs me. Is this community so untrusting of a [new] game mods ability to read through and make an informed decision? Are they really that opposed to anything out of the norm happening?

I didn't pick Ruy because we are friends with eachother. I picked him in addition because I watched his play through the running game, along with the play of everyone else. Then I went through a second time post-game, looking specifically for things that caught my eye the first time around. From that, I drew my conclusion. There's no way to know what the game could have been/outcome speculation, etc., but Ruy played very well throughout the entire game. I saw him as distracted by both Quicklynch Vinyl and the others alive at the very end.

MvP isn't about endgame only/outcomes. It's about overall play through the game.

Ruy if you want to decline then that is okay with me. You've got a say in this; don't feel like you do not.




Thank you, that's my wall for the year.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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I'd prefer not getting it because I made a stupid hasty decision off the wrong ideas about what the set-up was.

I don't deserve it.

Only time I think I should have even been considered was Adventure Time, but I replaced in and just sat in the background as town ate itself up.

Here, no, I may have been the best on town's side, but I failed to hold that standard high.

So no, not here not now, I'd rather just Bardull get it, and everyone stops arguing about this. A postbit isn't worth it, and again, MvP isn't what I aim for, just making sure my faction wins.

That is more important than Dice.
 

Kantrip

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Yeah in adventure time you were the most valuable scummy, even if you just had to sit back and let us townies shred at each other. I'll admit, you had some good reads that you said in the thread in puzzle bobble. There were some times where I was really like "man ruy you go man!" However, in the end you acted on different impulses, moved away from the correct instincts, a participated in a quicklynch/scum alpha in LyLo. Your early game wasn't even as commanding and baller as DK Gorf, and he actually ended up winning that game.

I don't want to beat a dead horse cuz I'm pretty much just repeating myself and rehashing EE's points but I must say I think deciding against this MVP call is the right move for the sake of preventing anarchical riots.
 

Evil Eye

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@John: But... I'm not passing it off as just that. I'm saying that with a performance that is objectively and plainly not MVP being awarded as much, in your first non-Newbie game modding, and it just so happens to be to your friend who, while a good half a league or so above the rest of his faction, was directly outplayed by the scum (and actual) MVP, didn't make the right things happen, and directly lost the game...

I think at that point it becomes almost unquestionable that bias plays a role. If it hasn't, then it's the biggest gorfdamn coincidence I've seen in mafia for quite some time. Maybe it is as much, but everything points against it.

You say MVP isn't just the outcome, but I'm not denying that. However, in your decision you directly ignored the outcome. Honestly, with where I was at in the game when I joined this debate in the first place, I was expecting Riddle to be dead before long, RR to have been a direct cause of that, and RR to have been leaning Bardull > BSP and eat the NK going into lylo. And even then I just didn't think it was good enough.

But the outcome speaks volumes here, man. RR was the only townie on the game-losing mislynch. I just really can't imagine that that's going to be a game where he looks at his dice and feels happy about how things went. Compare that to Xonar or Glyph, where the former can lose traction in his argumentation or the latter can slip hopelessly into laziness, but both have those red dice that they earned the gorfdamn **** out of. Or Tuna, an old school only player from the Eor/ligolski/early frozenflame/THE GUT days whose only dice come from the game where he drew nurse as a relative newbie and proceeded to make the right saves after the doc died, with the town in dire straits, over and over and lead town to good lynches by Day.

That's what I want dice to represent to all of us. It's not about egotistical self-satisfaction or a sense of being part of an elite or any of that ****, it's about having a physical (well it's digital but shut up you get me) trophy that you can look at and will conjure up good memories of a time that you did something you enjoy and you did it well. Well like a girl orders her steak. I want it to mean something to the person that got it. Other people admiring each other's bling ain't **** to me and was never a factor for me when I helped kickstart the system in the first place.

No, the outcome isn't the be-all, but it's the thing you should look at first, and sometimes there's an obvious red flag waving right in your face. Relinquishing the game in a lylo QL on a townie before said townie even posts is one of them. And it still would have been even if the Day had been given a proper length and a proper consideration but faced the same outcome.

That's about the last monetary value I can wring out of my 0.02, I think. I know RR already declined your award, but I want you to see this and consider it because you'll be around DGames for the long term and, thus, will host future games. Making the wrong call in m/lylo should always be a disqualifier for MVP. It's the most precise, quantifiable point where such a thing can be tested and measured.


Red Ruy said:
I made a stupid hasty decision off the wrong ideas about what the set-up was.
That's a feel of which I am aware. Hit me up sometime on AIM or PM or whatever if you want, because I have a rather perfect example of the same and I still kick my own *** about it all the time. But, I also learned valuable lessons from it. I could also offer some advice on general issues that came up in Puzzle Bobble as they relate to my earlier critique of your play if you're interested.

Just throwin' it out there.
 

Swiss

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I love these threads.

Who is potassium?

Also in light of some of these MVP's a panel might not be a bad idea - if we want dice to be meaningful. If people just want to feel good/look good having red or gold dice then that's cool too.

Even on the panel bias would be involved, though (I know I would point blank refuse some players any MVP's).
 

Raziek

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I'd support a panel, but it doesn't seem necessary here, because most mods are making calls people agree with.

This is an outlier case where almost everyone disagrees with the verdict. Thanks to EE for stepping up and saying what I wanted to but couldn't.

:phone:
 

#HBC | ZoZo

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the fact that people agree
doesn't mean it's goddamn justified
when it's not a majority agreeing
it's the majority of people who bother talking about it agreeing
 

#HBC | Ryker

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the fact that people agree
doesn't mean it's goddamn justified
when it's not a majority agreeing
it's the majority of people who bother talking about it agreeing
If you don't vote, you have no right to complain about the state of the government. You shut up, then you abstain, regardless of your intentions.
 

BSL

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panel is bad, i agree. creates an elitist group.
 

DtJ Glyphmoney

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Panel is bad unless I'm on it and I get a new username color

Actually better idea let all the cool kids on the panel and give them a new user name color
 

#HBC | Ryker

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panel is bad, i agree. creates an elitist group.
Huh? I was under the impression that we already had an elitist group, but one that cares about the board and the game. Also, would you want a panel not to be "elite."
 

Circus

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panel is bad, i agree. creates an elitist group.
Can't tell if serious. In case you are: What exactly do you think the dice system does, at its highest aspiration?

Personally, I'm with Swiss on this. MVP is pretty meaningless in its current form, so I don't see the point in fighting that hard for or against a mod's decisions on MVP distribution (although I think EE and others make excellent points about what mods should be considering when deciding to award it). Really, because of the way MVP is currently implemented, dice don't award a person much respect or admiration on their own. People respect people that play well consistently and fairly and know what being a good sport means. If we want the dice to reflect actual skill, then we would need to at least set up some pretty high, official standards for MVP across the board, if not a panel of judges of some kind.

I've personally thought MVP is kind of silly ever since I came back to smashboards and saw people with dice, but that's just me. I liked mafia just fine when no one even had the option of thinking about playing for dice. Wouldn't mind if the whole thing got scrapped, to be honest.

ABOLISH THE WAGE SYSTEM. DISMANTLE THE ESTABLISHMENT. WE ARE MARSHALL.



I'M OUT.
 

BarDulL

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I feel like it's asking too much to have a panel review every game because, really, no one wants to read through 50+ pages per game when they aren't a part of it. Game mods essentially knock two birds out with one stone since they kinda have to read the game anyway to maintain vote counts, so that's why it just feels optimal to have them hand out MvPs.

@EE - LOL I was thinking exactly what you said w.r.t. John saying that what he wrote was a "wall." I was like..."you call that a wall? Try EE walls."

Huh? I was under the impression that we already had an elitist group, but one that cares about the board and the game. Also, would you want a panel not to be "elite."
We don't have an "elitist group." Even if one existed, they don't have any power or influence.
 

#HBC | J

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Some people already read through every game anyways just because it's an easy task.

And saying we don't have an "elitist" group is kind of silly.
 

BarDulL

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And saying we don't have an "elitist" group is kind of silly.
No it isn't; since my coming here, I haven't felt any particular group of individuals stick out as being 'elite', nor have I acknowledged them as such. If I'm wrong, then tell me, who here is a part of this "elitist group" of individuals?
 

#HBC | marshy

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i am absolutely ****ing down to flush everyones dice and the system down the toilet
 

DtJ Glyphmoney

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I think dice is a great idea that serves as a neat little reward to playing your *** off. Of course it gets flawed when you have people winning dice for games that don't really deserve it (which honestly without some more structured guidelines is going to always be a problem) it cheapens the whole thing.
 

Gova

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it should just be changed to the light house game night system where when you get a certain number of wins you get a postbit. Encourages team play and stuff
 

#HBC | marshy

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no to govas idea cuz then ****ty people who get themselves lynched deservedly and/or hurt their faction get recognized when their teammates were the ones who did the work
 

Gova

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would be pretty easy to just exclude them if they do that imo

edit: at any rate it would cause less drama after almost every game theres mvp drama of some sort
 

#HBC | J

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That's because people try to use every game nowadays as a fight for either side of "Games need more MvPs" or "Let's abolish MvPs". It's like the political world of DGames after each game which is semi-annoying.
 
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