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Detailed Throws, Techs, and Getups Frame Data

Discussion in 'Melee Discussion' started by Magus420, Nov 21, 2008.

  1. MikeHaggarTHAKJB

    MikeHaggarTHAKJB
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    So, the slight variations in different characters hitstun actually has to do with their launch speed (that they generally get from attacks)?
     
  2. Magus420

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    The launch speed for attacks is calculated using their weight multiplier (throws do not use the multiplier for launch speed). When a heavier character has just enough more damage than a lighter character so that the launch speeds that are calculated are equal, they will have equal stun times.

    Also, when bouncing off of a surface your speed is reduced by 20% but the stun remains the same, resulting in 25% more stun time than that launch speed would normally have. This is why things like Falcon/Ganon/Falco/Samus/Marth/etc's d-airs and other attacks that when used on a grounded opponent makes a green flash on the floor and bounces them up have considerably more stun for the amount of knockback they have.
     
  3. elvenarrow3000

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    Wow... that's really really cool...

    Is there a way to find out launch speed on different characters?
     
  4. Wind Owl

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    Bump because Magus is らミメン.
     
  5. SPAWN

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    Okay, just to be clear about the grabbing Fox/Falco when they tech in place and then shine:

    When you're using Sheik and they tech in place, you have to start the grab somewhere between frame 14 and 19, correct (it takes 7 frames to get out your grab and they're only vulnerable from 21-26 if they time the shine perfectly)? This is all assuming Fox/Falco's shine comes out on Frame 27...
     
  6. Magus420

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    You'd have to do the input for the grab on frame 13 at the earliest (animation then begins on 14 and the 1st grab frame of the standing grab misses on 20, but the 2nd grab frame gets them on 21), and 19 at the latest (begins on 20 and grabs them with the 1st frame on 26). Yeah, they would be invincible on 27 if they time it perfectly and you'd get hit unless you're far enough away and haven't reached forward during the grab animation yet (either delayed it or simply reacted slow before grabbing).
     
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  7. SPAWN

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    Okay, thanks for the clarification.

    Ugh, reaction speed of .13-.19 seconds ftl.
     
  8. Magus420

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    13 frames is .217 sec and 19 is .317 sec. Since you're not reacting to the moment the tech in place begins though (you can't really tell what kind of tech it is at that point), my best guess would be something in the .217 (distinguishable on frame 6) to .167 (frame 9) range. It's difficult to say exactly when a person would be able to tell them apart in real time to say for sure though.

    It's also a different type of reaction time than what you see measured on most online reaction tests. It's a combination of that raw speed and making a decision to do the appropriate action for it. Instead of 'Do something when anything happens' (click the dot when it changes color), it's more like 'Do this when this happens, and that when that happens' (left-click when the dot turns red, and right-click when the dot turns green).
     
  9. Witchking_of_Angmar

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    Lol. My reaction time is .22 seconds. :(
     
  10. SPAWN

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    Ohhhh I'm stupid LOL. I was thinking out of 100 frames not 13/60 and 19/60. Silly me. Game runs on 60fps which I know, just forgot to do math lol. That reaction speed is actually pretty reasonable.

    Thanks sooo much for correcting my stupidity Magus.

    Witchking, most people's reactions are around .2-.22 seconds. That's where mine is.


    I'm going to figure out how quickly you have to react for techchasing with Sheik. Should be really easy now that I understand everything fully.
     
  11. Magus420

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    Mine is somewhere in the .195-.205 range for raw reaction time (not particularly amazing), but I'm able to react to their DI quickly enough to be able to chaingrab Fox/Falco with Ganon pretty consistently at mid and higher damages, while I don't know of anyone else able to do it nearly as well. Though related, raw reaction time and the type that's useful in-game are pretty different. There's also more room for improvement on the latter, since I once thought I'd never be able to react quickly enough in order to CG Fox, but eventually could.
     
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  12. Witchking_of_Angmar

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    @Spawn: Loool, I thought you were saying you had .13 seconds reaction time and you were sad about that >_>

    Reading comprehension ftw
     
  13. SPAWN

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    Oh, that'd be freaking ridiculous, haha. At least you didn't screw up simple knowledge that everyone knows about LOL.

    Magus, you're definitely the only person to be able to cg Fox/Falco with Ganon. That ****'s ridiculous. I didn't see any vs Tec0 on youtube. Probably because you didn't get a grab in/were just ****ing around haha.

    I'll post the reaction speed for techchasing for Sheik vs some of the techchasable(not real word lol) characters soon.

    Edit: Before I do that, how do I figure out how long x character can react to do something? Like say Falcon's jab (i think the quickest thing he can do unless roll is quicker?). I'll just say sidedodge/roll is the quickest in each situation.

    Edit2: I hope it's not something really stupid like as soon as it finishes they can roll. I'm assuming it's gotta be like 3/4 frames it takes to start the roll?
     
  14. Alpha Dash

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    This will help me out a lot for IC's CGing I been looking for something like this for a long time, couldn't be bothered to actually test out characters weight individually... I'm lazy like that...
     
  15. Stevo

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    How did you find all this information?
    (*crosses fingers hoping it wasnt asked in the other pages in this thread)
     
  16. victra♥

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    m2k's aol page.

    edit: nvm, the op is magus. Did I say m2k's aol page? I meant magus's brain.
     
  17. SPAWN

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    What's the margin for error for Sheik chaingrabbing Sheik at 0?

    Dthrow ends at 61, running grab hits 8-9, so do you have to be frame perfect?

    Are there other characters who have even less of a margin for error when chaingrabbing?
     
  18. Magus420

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    It's probably 0 when DI'ed away. It only becomes possible on Ganon at 4 or 5 damage iirc. Obviously you can't have less room for error than 0, but there a quite a few CGs like this that only begin their windows once it becomes possible to regrab for a certain DI and begins with no room for error on that.

    Room for error on timing is only one part of the difficulty though. Sheik vs Sheik DI away at 0 is still a lot easier overall compared to other CGs that have the little or no room for error in timing as well but also with an extreme demand in reaction time to correctly read the DI. Ganon d-throw on Fox/Falco (DI behind), Doc d-throw (and Mario?) on Fox/Falco (DI behind), Zelda u-throw on Fox/Falco (DI behind), and Popo d-throw on CF (DI away) are some that I know are much harder because of that.

    The throw lag on those CGs is much shorter than Sheik's d-throw, yet they still require you to act immediately as soon as you can move. You need to interpret their DI correctly faster and/or with less information to base it on. For example, instead of having time to react between seeing where they are 10 frames into their KB and the end of the throw, you may need to figure it out based off of only 5 frames into the KB before your time to react added onto that would put you at the end of the throw's lag and require you to take action.
     
  19. -ACE-

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    Magus, I love you.

    No homo
     
  20. SPAWN

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    Magus- I know that Sheik's chaingrab on character's is much MUCH easier than other characters due to not having to react quickly at all to the DI. The only hard part about hers is inputting the dash for away DI (which all characters who have a tough CG have to do except as you said with much more reflexes/less info). I was just seeing if there was any margin for error or if you really did have to do it frame perfect.

    I didn't know you could cg Ganon at 4/5 O_O I can only do it at like 18 lol. Time to get practicing haha.

    Thanks for the informative and quick reply as always Magus. I'm finally starting to really understand frame data (unlike before where I said I understood it) so my posts in this topic before this were a little retarded... thanks for answering those too haha. :)
     
  21. Magus420

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    Actually, to be more specific I think it starts at 4 or 5 when Sheik has port priority and begins at like 6 or 7 if Ganon has port priority. Some throws are weird and when the person being thrown has port priority it releases them at a lower height off the floor than when they don't. It's what causes Doc/Mario/Luigi's d-throw to mess up on G&W when G&W has port priority (he gets launched from below or on the floor and hits it immediately when released). You might not be able to regrab Sheik at 0 if you don't have port priority.
     
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  22. SPAWN

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    Well, looks like I'll just have to be first port then from now on... hopefully noone else checks on this. I'll have to give up the advantage to stage striking. :(

    Magus- How do I check if you can/can't regrab Sheik at 0 with port priority? I do have AR... I just have no idea how I would check on port priority...

    Edit: Haha, Zoso was showing me about the G&W port priority grab thing. This game has so many silly glitches in it.
     
  23. Magus420

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    You go in develop mode, make both P1 and P2 Sheik, and see if P2 can regrab P1 when they DI away at 0 =P

    Also, swap controllers between P1 and P2 and retest a few times to make sure one isn't getting a better DI input than the other (which can be possible).
     
  24. SPAWN

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    Alright, thanks for the tips. :D
     
  25. MikeHaggarTHAKJB

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    Magus is the king of the world. I just bumped this to remind everyone of that.
     
  26. AXE 09

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    WOW... Why have I never seen this thread before? My goodness.... *begins reading through the OP*

    Magus, you are a genius!
     
  27. DJRome

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    as for tope chasing, would it be possible to get a side by side comparison of the animations for spacies teching, not teching, teching left and right all with left, none, and right DI?
     
  28. Purpletuce

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    Hello Magus, master of frame data, I have a question . . . You posted that hitstun = launch speed/1.475. What are the units on this, and how do I find it? I know that at the end of a match, you can view a characters stats, one of which is their maximum launch speed and another is their maximum pitch, and I tried using that information.

    If I were trying to find the frame advantage of say, Link's D-throw on Yoshi, and at what % is his U-tilt a combo, how would I do that? I know that 1st actionable frame - release = 19 frames for Yoshi, and U-tilt for Link comes out on frame 9, so for it to combo, hitstun needs to be greater than 10 frames, and using the above formula gives me launch speed needs to be greater than 14.75 (units?). When I use Link's D-throw at 0% on Yoshi, then end the match, his maximum pitch is ~150 something(units) in the english version of the game, which would make the hitstun over 100 frames at 0%, which seems unreasonable. I tried again in metric and found that at 0% the pitch was 48 (units?) and I'm not sure the proper way to interpret this. . .any help appreciated.

    Also, a clarification, 1st AF-released frame would give the frame advantage of the character being thrown, yes? Making (1st AF frame - released) - hitstun the frame advantage of the thrower?
     
  29. Strong Bad

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  30. Purpletuce

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    Edit: Thanks very much, everything is figured out, thanks SB and Magus, I feel like I have access to so much data now! :D
     
  31. hectohertz

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    just tested the sheik v sheik CG at 0% w/ DI away. works p1 vs p2 both ways

    also you dont have to do dash grab (as i'd heard before), you can do a JC grab, but either way it needs to be frame perfect
     
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  32. reverie2

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    Wait i'm a bit confused... When you say "released frame", does that mean when the attacker moves the control stick left/right/up/down? Or when the defender is released from the grab and enters hitlag (or hitstun. not sure if you get hitlag from grabs)
     
    #72 reverie2, Nov 21, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2015
  33. Kadano

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    Release is when hitstun starts. No hitlag after throws (with a few exceptions that are listed in the OP).
     
    #73 Kadano, Nov 21, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2015
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  34. reverie2

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    non-teched floor is 26 frames, but normally when you don't tech, depending on what % you are, you might bounce a little bit on the floor. Is it still exactly 26 frames before you can do an action for no tech even though you might bounce a little bit if you're at high percent?
     
  35. Bones0

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    If you land on the ground while in tumble without teching, you'll always bounce the same height at the same speed (try dthrowing a Falcon as Sheik at 0% and compare it to the same dthrow at 150%). The only way percent can affect this situation is if you're too low of a percent and don't get knocked down at all, in which case your character will experience ground stun, which is a different animation entirely, based on KB/hitstun.
     
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  36. Sycorax

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    Not exactly. The hitlag on some throws doesn't scale with weight like the rest of the throw does. This mislead me for a while. For example, if Link dthrows Sheik, he is actionable on frame 48, not 47 like Magus's method would suggest.

    52 * 0.9=46.8 rounded up = 47

    Link's dthrow has 3 frames of hitlag that don't scale. The real calculation would be

    49 * 0.9 + 3=47.1 rounded up = 48
     
    #76 Sycorax, Jan 7, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2016
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