Dedede's Chain Grab and Competitive Play

[BentoBox]

Learn2Play

 

[BUM163]

yo only fox, falco, zelda/shiek, olimar, pikachu and squritle can't get chain. everyone else dies if the person can do the chain right. in stages like final d or battle chain grab is limited accordin to where in the stage your at. in the bridge or shadow moses or the corner of corneira U R DONE.

ya saying oh don't get grab lmao. my lil cousin 10 years old literally and this is no lie, did the chain grab in halberd. my lil cousin can't do the ice climbers, but he did the chain grab wit dedede. i bet all of ya right now, ya will complain about a move that u press down, run and grab then repeat.

this game is already getting ruin by the stupid community that half of ya don't even have the game. ya a bunch of youtube feens and watch the videos. i just saw the olimar combo and laugh, cuz the person with bowser had terrible d.i, and when he hit the floor, he could of tech. only one person i know for sure has a 0 to death combo.

somone on here said don't get grab lmao. thatz impossible in this game. each stock especially in this game, your more likely to get grab, just cause powershield now named perfect shield is alot easier to do. i have the game and play awhole bunch of different people. don't put any comments about the game is wack or you don't like a stage till you had time with the game and i don't mean you play the game one time. i mean actually play it everyday or something.

 

[CT Chia]

i never said i wanted to ban it, its just that the idea crossed my mind. the counterarguments here were good tho and it shouldnt. but yea, to all those who say it cant be done to that many ppl or it can be escaped with DI, ur wrong.

and to anyone who just says i suck at brawl, MM.

im still undecided about walk off stages though. castle siege and delfino should be fine as they arent always walk off, but bridge of eldin and mario circuit should def be banned.

edit after seeing bums post:

thank you! there, now a pro to finally back me up lol. (not that it shouldnt be banned, but that its unescapable and practically impossible to not get grabbed). bum ur awesome lol. i kinda wanna see u in brawl. oh yea, u missed GAW who def can't get chained by DDD.

 

[Norm]

people will figure a way out of it eventually so i wouldn't worry about it just give it some time.

 

[usea]

Chain grabbing (including wobbling in melee) should never be banned.

Dedede should only be banned if it's shown that with his chain grab, he is too good. By "too good" I mean that to be competitive, all competitors have to choose him to stand a reasonable chance of winning.

Whether or not you believe a chain grab to be "unfair" or "too easy" or to have too high of a return for the skill required, that is irrelevent if it doesn't make Dedede broken.

 

[hippochinfat!!]

You can escape it.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Dear Chibo:

You suck at Brawl, and at ban arguments. MM me.

 

[J18]

well i'm sure there's a way around it, but still, it's hard to regulate and enforce something like that. and it doesn't really make sense to ban a technique in a fighting game. items and stages i can understand, but to utilize everything about the character seems fair to see who is the best.

 

[Desruprot]

This likely should be in the DDD section...

 

[BUM163]

i 4got game n watch. people think you can escape it. you can't. i tell u why you think you can. the smaller n skinner the person is, the more accurate you have to be. it's base on the person accuracy, knowing when to catch the person.

the people saying oh u can escape..... ya don't even have the game man. stop watching videos for real. alot of people are like monkeys. they don't have their own mind. look at melee and how many of the same characters their was. it will be the same here, just cause itz the easy way out.

you will see me play soon and you won't be surprise. i will go to alot of tournies. i got my money straight, which i can honestly say i didn't at first. now i got a better hold on life so ya will see some things that will shock this community straight up. i also will be recruiting on gamebattles and looking for people ready to rock other clans. i have the game and if people wanna exchange friend codes. let me know here or on aim, which is oni163.

i don't say ban his chain throws, but the fact that you can be at 170 and it still acts like you being shine aka melee shine itz stupid and way to easy. in my tournaments if i allow this, guranteed there will be 2 ban limit including stage strike. you wil

 

[ConeZone]

absolutely no banning of techniques...i haven't participated in any tournaments either, but there is always a way to block or counter a technique. Just use somebody with projectiles and keep a distance from dedede as much as possible haha

 

[BUM163]

thatz impossible in this game. your not understanding. in this game powershield is so much better and it happens alot more often. oooooooooooo also anybody not just dedede gets super armor while grabbing dependin on what frame you get hit on. i'm tellin you, it requires no skill at all. you will get grab every stock for sure.

in final d or battlefield, i wouldn't care if i get chain, but in bridge or shadow moses, no skill what so ever. all ya people who didn't play the game, no say anything till ya play. trust me it requires no skill. especially since you get super armor during a grab. when you good at the game, you will see even a noob that just started get beat you in in a stage with a wall or bridge just cause its sooooooo easy.

 

[SN3S]

thatz impossible in this game. your not understanding. in this game powershield is so much better and it happens alot more often. oooooooooooo also anybody not just dedede gets super armor while grabbing dependin on what frame you get hit on. i'm tellin you, it requires no skill at all. you will get grab every stock for sure.

in final d or battlefield, i wouldn't care if i get chain, but in bridge or shadow moses, no skill what so ever. all ya people who didn't play the game, no say anything till ya play. trust me it requires no skill. especially since you get super armor during a grab. when you good at the game, you will see even a noob that just started get beat you in in a stage with a wall or bridge just cause its sooooooo easy.

Super armor? Someone's been playing too much MvC2

But TBH, it isn't that hard to escape: you just have to fake out the thrower with your recovery and hope for the best XD but I'm sure it will depend on tournaments, much like certain infinites in MvC2.

And for the record: don't complain about one infinite. MvC2 is much more broken in this respect (at my local arcade there is one guy whose main team is Ironman/Magneto/Cyclops A.K.A. Infinite/Rushdown/Super Meter Spam. It's annoying at times, but I just take my two favorite quotes into account: "Don't get hit", and "Just Super Jump over it"

 

[SN3S]

D-D-D-DOUBLE POOOOST!!!!!!!!!!

 

[shadowyoshi2345]

i suggest you just dont put yourself in the position of getting grabbed that often

 

[ChaosKnight]

god wtf its like saying omg melee shiek can chaingrab half the crew lets ban her !


Well guess what DDD is the new Chain grab champ now....

 

[hippochinfat!!]

Dear Chibo:

You suck at Brawl, and at ban arguments. MM me.

Stop trying to lure kids to your house over the internet.

 

[hippochinfat!!]

Double Post Ignore

 

[BUM163]

the thing about shiek chain grab is that it don't last for to long. ddd down throw is like getting hit with fox shine from melee. it slides you even at high percentages and i mean like 100 percent high. ddd throw is by the player messing up. shiek you can d.i and plus it pops you up in the air.

mvc2 is beyond broken lmao. itz 54 characters....... 5 are useful lol. infinites been in since street fighter 2 with guile deep hard punch, into sonic boom into fierce punch into repeat lol. super armor is from mvc2, but i play all types of games competitve wise. thatz how i am. i just know this infinite dependin on the stage is way to simple. if itz not ban, **** it. there will be complains on how easy it is. when a 7 year old takes first place cuz he glide ur *** to the other side of the field, i'm gonna laugh.

 

[CT Chia]

in my tournaments if i allow this, guranteed there will be 2 ban limit including stage strike. you wil

wait, whatd ya mean by this? if u allow ddd chain grabs that youl have it so everyone strikes 2 stages in a set? thats an interesting idea especially with all the new stages in brawl. perhaps limit it so only one of em can be neutrals?

Dear Chibo:

You suck at Brawl, and at ban arguments. MM me.

hmm... im bout to lol

 

[MookieRah]

Even though the evidence against D3's chain grab is pretty hefty, this still needs more testing. Give it a month or so after the game comes out, by then pretty much everyone will realize how crazy it is. This seems more like something the SBR should be discussing anyways.

 

[SN3S]

Even though the evidence against D3's chain grab is pretty hefty, this still needs more testing. Give it a month or so after the game comes out, by then pretty much everyone will realize how crazy it is. This seems more like something the SBR should be discussing anyways.

True, but there's only so far you can take it. I mean, sure there's broken things like this in nearly any game (A-groove in CvS2 MvC2 infinites/broken teams (discussed in my last post, V-ism combos in Alpha 3 (which aren't broken per-se, but scrubs still hate them XD, etc), but are we going to try to "even things out" to the point where we have rules like "you can only throw once/twice"? Is this back in the old days of Super Turbo where you'd get dirty looks if you grabbed the opponent more than twice in succession? I know it's broken, but IMO I believe it'll just be like what most fighting game communities do in this case: they get better and find ways around it. But it could go either way;

the thing about shiek chain grab is that it don't last for to long. ddd down throw is like getting hit with fox shine from melee. it slides you even at high percentages and i mean like 100 percent high. ddd throw is by the player messing up. shiek you can d.i and plus it pops you up in the air.

mvc2 is beyond broken lmao. itz 54 characters....... 5 are useful lol. infinites been in since street fighter 2 with guile deep hard punch, into sonic boom into fierce punch into repeat lol. super armor is from mvc2, but i play all types of games competitve wise. thatz how i am. i just know this infinite dependin on the stage is way to simple. if itz not ban, **** it. there will be complains on how easy it is. when a 7 year old takes first place cuz he glide ur *** to the other side of the field, i'm gonna laugh.

1. Fox's shine/Shiek Combos/Insert Melee Tactic here are broken in melee. Yes we all know that; we just get used to it and play around it. Being a Bowser/Ganondorf player, I've learned to stop complaining about things and get around them. Or, if you can't beat them, join them.

2. Oh you done it now boy... I'm a hardcore MvC2 player

3. I've never seen that as a viable combo/used in any type of play; and I'm usually playing Guiles in ST. I'll have to try that.

4. MvC2 is way deeper than that; there's at least 2-3 dozen people that are viable in tournament play. Heck, I've played people that blow others away using Ken/SonSon/Cable, just because they learn how to play well. When you count the usefulness of assists/supers/trick techniques, you can put together a good team with near anyone you want. (E.G. My two fave teams are Felicia/Tron/Cammy, and Spiral/B.B./Hood/Cammy Now other than Cammy, most would scoff at these teams, but played well they're devestating) The main point is, and this is my rallying cry, is that people need to adapt, and get around things. If you don't like DeDeDe's chaingrab, then use it yourself!

5. Banning a stage is viable if it is truly detrimental, but banning a technique like this may not be. I mean, do any tournaments ban the iron man infinite/Air Hyper Viper Beam even though all you have to do is wait for the right opening and then push 2-3 buttons and go from there?
It all goes back to my point.

By the way, has anyone read Sir Lin's "Playing to Win"? I think it deals with problems like this pretty well, and it's a good sportsmanship read regardless.

 

[MookieRah]

@SN3S
I wasn't advocating banning it as much as I was just saying that we should wait a bit longer to claim how broken it is.

 

[Snoopfrogg]

Since all of you supposed elitist tournament players believe that nothing is cheap, and enjoy linking to the scrub explanation all the time, then this should be no problem for you pros to deal with

 

[Platanos]

It's hardly "broken".
Chaingrabs didn't hurt the Melee competitive scene.
Why should it be different now?

 

[CrazyShaman]

It doesn't seem any worse than IC infinites, and those weren't entirely banned. Just don't get grabbed.

 

[Dark Sonic]

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/intermediates-guide/what-should-be-banned.

Read the first two criteria of a ban. DDDs chaingrab has a lot of trouble fitting into those doesn't it. Banning tactics is a last resort. We didn't ban waveshining, or Shiek's chaingrab, or IC's chaingrab. Heck, we hardly did anything to wobbling and just left it up to the tourney directors.

 

[SN3S]

@SN3S
I wasn't advocating banning it as much as I was just saying that we should wait a bit longer to claim how broken it is.

QFT; And I see what you mean. But then again, the shine was like this when it first started to be used offensively, with people getting all excited about how "broken" it is

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/intermediates-guide/what-should-be-banned.

Read the first two criteria of a ban. DDDs chaingrab has a lot of trouble fitting into those doesn't it. Banning tactics is a last resort. We didn't ban waveshining, or Shiek's chaingrab, or IC's chaingrab. Heck, we hardly did anything to wobbling and just left it up to the tourney directors.

QFT Again, and with this post I'm done with this discussion. SN3S out Y'all.

 

[Papapaint]

Since all of you supposed elitist tournament players believe that nothing is cheap, and enjoy linking to the scrub explanation all the time, then this should be no problem for you pros to deal with

Rofl troll.

 

[Betrayed]

Rofl troll.

Rofl constuctive, insightful and overall useful post!

I myself haven't played Brawl, but I think it's way too early to be saying that we're going to BAN anything. If we didn't ban the wobble, I doubt we'd ban this. However, I believe time will tell, the SBR will make a good decision for all tournaments regulated by people here.

Not that SBR is the authority and you have to do a tournament how they say if you want to advertise here, but they are the knowledgeable ones in the field and tend to make good decisions. (Not that I can recall any bad ones, save maybe keeping wobbles legal, but I had no opinion on the skill, so I didn't care.)

 

[memphischains]

If we don't ban chain throwing, one of two things happen:

1. Every tournament ends up being dominated by D3

2. People figure out a way around it, and life goes on as usual.

Lets consider banning it if #1 happens.

this isnt anything differrent from melee tourneys. what marth doesnt have at least 3 chaingrabs per match, what sheik doesn't kill you with a chain grab combo.

It's hardly "broken".
Chaingrabs didn't hurt the Melee competitive scene.
Why should it be different now?

we will find plenty of ways to escape it like we did with the other ones.

everyone stop crying about it


-----
EDIT: the chaingrab haters

haters, just because you get rocked everytime you face a ddd doesn't mean it should mean he should be banned.

if he gets banned, i say ban marth completely, ban c falcs knee, ban zeldas transformation, ban shorthops, ban edgeguarding, ban pros from playing, ban going to the bathroom, ban HDTVs, ban jesus, ban Boston sports, lets just plain kill M2K, ban youko and ninja bear from podcasting, lets ban the use of controllers, ****, lets ban being alive. BREATHING IS TO GOOD, GOD TIER, BAN HAMMER

 

[B-Run]

I did all the testing already, here:

I did the majority of my testing on Bridge of Eldin, chainthrowing each character all the way across the stage in both directions. I can tell from most animations if its escapable or not, the ones I wasn't sure about I held down shield while chainthrowing to see if they had any shield frames in which they could dodge roll or otherwise. DI has had no effect on the chainthrow. % has no effect on the chainthrow. If this testing seems insufficient to you, let me know and when I have a live person to help me tomorrow we will revise the list.

Chainthrow is Inescapable(21)
Bowser
Captain Falcon
Charizard
DeDeDe
Diddy Kong
Donkey Kong
Ike
Ivysaur
Link
Lucario
Lucas
Mario
Marth
Ness
R.O.B.
Samus
Snake
Sonic
Wario
Wolf
Yoshi

Chainthrow is Escapable*(5)
Ice Climbers**
Luigi
Peach
Pit
Toon Link

Can't Chainthrow(13)
Falco
Fox
Ice Climbers**
Jigglypuff
Kirby
Metaknight
Mr. Game&Watch
Olimar
Pikachu
Shiek
Squirtle
Zelda
Zero Suit Samus


* - Chainthrows that can normally be escaped become inescapable against a wall.
** - The Iceclimbers can't be chainthrown simply because of the fact that the other gets in the way, however, if 1 is dead, the other can still escape a chainthrow with decent timing.

I'd like to do some more wall testing, a few more characters might be moved to inescapable for walls only. Pikachu, for instance, if timed correctly can be chainthrown using a wall. If its escapable, I don't know yet. I also have a nifty % dependant chainthrow combo that works on at least Zelda when using a wall.

 

[sesshomaru]

lol i love that marths name is under there. on topic, bannings impossible for the simple and harsh argument that it's available to both players. i hated goin against marths whose only skills were being so bad it kinda throws you off and chain grabbing. it sux but alls it took was learning marth himself. its not cheap or cheating or anything else other than an irritating and effective combo. sirlins whole book is based on accepting these things and he couldnt be more right.

 

[jdub03]

Have you guys been to the Ice climbers board lately. His chaingrab look to be a lot deadlier the DDD's. It looks like it can be done at higher percentages too. Im going to enjoy destroying ddd with IC chain grab to edge spike.

 

[Nicktendo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdFw3bnL9BQ&feature=related

Watch this video around 1:50, Hugs spotdodges the grab multiple times. People have been saying that Samus is in the inescapable group

From Dedede forums: "yeah I've had several people try and get out of chain grabs by rolling or spot dodging. You need to carefully watch their patterns and guess what they are likely to do. From what I've experienced, people tend to try to roll away first, and if it works they usually try to roll away again, in which case you should be prepared to run further forward. You should also watch out for spot dodges. If you grab and miss, they're likely to grab you back. If you cant be bothered making a risk, then just ftilt out of dthrow."

So it is escapable

 

[CT Chia]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdFw3bnL9BQ&feature=related

Watch this video around 1:50, Hugs spotdodges the grab multiple times. People have been saying that Samus is in the inescapable group

From Dedede forums: "yeah I've had several people try and get out of chain grabs by rolling or spot dodging. You need to carefully watch their patterns and guess what they are likely to do. From what I've experienced, people tend to try to roll away first, and if it works they usually try to roll away again, in which case you should be prepared to run further forward. You should also watch out for spot dodges. If you grab and miss, they're likely to grab you back. If you cant be bothered making a risk, then just ftilt out of dthrow."

So it is escapable

lol that doesnt mean its unescapable. it just means its possible not to get grabbed by dedede. but if he camps correctly, theres no way to not get grabbed as bum said.

Chainthrow is Escapable*(5)
Ice Climbers**
Luigi
Peach
Pit
Toon Link

These characters are unescapable, HOWEVER, it is harder for dedede to chain grab them. the ones u listed as unescapable are very easy to chain grab, but for these characters you need more precise timing, but as long as u dont mess up (something practice helps with) then they are unescapable. i think i mentioned this earlier as when m2k was testing it on my toon link. he said it was harder, but still unescapable if he did it right.

 

[ph00tbag]

It's harder than wobbling.

 

[BigRick]

to some ppl: get off sirlin's nuts

to some other ppl: stop whining

 

[BigRick]

to some ppl: get off sirlin's nuts every1 knows the dude already

to some other ppl: stop whining

 

[Nicktendo]

lol that doesnt mean its unescapable. it just means its possible not to get grabbed by dedede. but if he camps correctly, theres no way to not get grabbed as bum said.



These characters are unescapable, HOWEVER, it is harder for dedede to chain grab them. the ones u listed as unescapable are very easy to chain grab, but for these characters you need more precise timing, but as long as u dont mess up (something practice helps with) then they are unescapable. i think i mentioned this earlier as when m2k was testing it on my toon link. he said it was harder, but still unescapable if he did it right.

I wasn't saying its unescapable. By posting that I was showing that there are ways to get out of it (rolling, spotdodge). With ways to get out, cant the player switch up methods to try and trick the Dedede player to not get grabbed then if you can spotdodge or roll? Isnt it a prediction game then if the Dedede player has to predict how theyll go out of the roll to get the grab again?

I'm confused now. You've tested this a bunch or whatever, can you roll/spot dodge out of the down grab? Thats what it looks like Hugs did, and other people have said it happens

I've heard snake/marth can jab to cancel it? Cant Dedede do the sliding shield grab to block it and just get the grab again though? I've heard Toon Link can grab before Dedede can to, or did you just say that if you do it right he cant