Dedede's Chain Grab and Competitive Play

[CT Chia]

I'm sure you all know of KD3's (King Dedede's) crazy chain grab. Bottom line, it's way to broken, and it's pretty much unfair. Once you get grabbed you either get a bunch of damage racked up on you and in position for edgeguarding, or if there's a walk off ledge, your dead. Now there were chain grabs in Melee, but they were all situational and on few characters. KD3's chain grab works on about 32 of the 39 characters (3 PT, Zamus, ZeldaSheik. 32 is a rough estimation it's smoewhere around there) and works at ANY percent. It would seem unfair to completely ban KD3, but what about the banning of the technique? For instance, no one is allowed to down throw chain grab with Dedede 2 or more times. Like they can be allowed to grab, down throw once, grab, but can not follow up with another chain grab. They could do another down throw if they wanted, but they can't follow up with a grab, and can instead do something like a ftilt. What do you all think, is this fair for tournament play?

 

[SmashBro99]

Nah, banning techniques is worse then banning characters lol.

 

[Bane84]

I'm no tournament player, but I'm not really sure if this could be called an Advanced Tactic. (By the way, should this be in the Dedede section?)

 

[otter]

Well based on what I have seen, you can roll (Ukemi) before he acually grabs you a second time. This can still open up some fun mind games because D3 can anticipate your roll and try to follow up. Or you could just lay there and let him guess wrong.

 

[180OP]

I suggested a cap before but the response was that something like that would be too difficult to moderate which sounds reasonable. But how many people will be watching each match at each station in a tourney? Peer moderation could be a solution.

My suggestion was based on falco's laser infinite on Shadow Moses(or any stage with walls).

 

[Drack]

It's not impossible to get out of. Or at least difficult to pull off without escape.

How is this diferent from wobbling anyway? Grab -> infinite combo. Didn't break melee.

 

[Turbo Ether]

I'm sure you all know of KD3's (King Dedede's) crazy chain grab. Bottom line, it's way to broken, and it's pretty much unfair. Once you get grabbed you either get a bunch of damage racked up on you and in position for edgeguarding, or if there's a walk off ledge, your dead. Now there were chain grabs in Melee, but they were all situational and on few characters. KD3's chain grab works on about 32 of the 39 characters (3 PT, Zamus, ZeldaSheik. 32 is a rough estimation it's smoewhere around there) and works at ANY percent. It would seem unfair to completely ban KD3, but what about the banning of the technique? For instance, no one is allowed to down throw chain grab with Dedede 2 or more times. Like they can be allowed to grab, down throw once, grab, but can not follow up with another chain grab. They could do another down throw if they wanted, but they can't follow up with a grab, and can instead do something like a ftilt. What do you all think, is this fair for tournament play?

You must not have played this game. The vast majority of the cast can escape the chain grab.

 

[Xsyven]

It'll stay legal. His chaingrab is only good for 5-6 grabs at the most, if he's lucky enough to grab you from one end of a completely flat level. Otherwise, it's good for like, two grabs, which really isn't a big deal.

 

[Papapaint]

It's not impossible to get out of. Or at least difficult to pull off without escape.

How is this diferent from wobbling anyway? Grab -> infinite combo. Didn't break melee.

Beat me to it.

"Don't get grabbed"

Ice had several different completely inescapable chain grabs AND wobbling. If you got grabbed by a half-competent IC player, you were done. D3's chain isn't nearly as abusive.

 

[entrapment]

...If they never banned chain grab in melee I don't think there needs to be one now.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Didn't break melee.

Can't break what's already broken.

 

[Card]

It's fair. Don't get grabbed.

I fail to see how this is any worse than Ice Climbers chain-grabs in Melee which were WAY more painful and allows them to follow up with a Smash Attack. (Dedede's doesn't allow him to follow with any Smash Attacks). Sheik's chain-grabs in Melee which were just so simple and easy to do, along with chain-grabs on practically every character.


Banning a Technique like this is also stupid. How do you Ban it? Dedede players are disqualified for using Down-Throw once? Where do you draw the line? The answer... you don't. It's a perfectly legitimate technique, it isn't broken or overpowered, get over it.


also..

You must not have played this game. The vast majority of the cast can escape the chain grab.

Quoted for Truth. I've played against Dedede many times, and you can often escape the chain-grab depending on which character you are, and what percent you are at. It seems to me as though you are basing your argument based off of what you have heard, as opposed to what you have experienced. Dedede's chain-grab is hardly anything dangerous in this game.

 

[Serpit]

As posted aerlier, many characters get out of it.

The only thing where it gets broken is at walls. You can effortlessly chaingrab your opponent without giving him any chance to get out. However, since there are several other wall infinites already, this won't lead to a DeDeDe or Chaingrab ban either.

 

[TheOfficialSonicFanboy]

I (more then anyone I think) hate King Dedede with a passion, but there is no reason to ban it. It hasn't been proven 100% unescapeable unless it is against a wall (Buzz did the courtesy of that) but honestly it hasn't been tested enough to even make this statement. I personally haven't seen anyone even try to DI or Tap DI outside of it. I'm sure it's possible.
If you have a video to further your point, you could post a video and then it will be a better topic to discuss.

 

[Thino]

It will be like wobbling ,banned at some tourneys , not banned at others

 

[Cookiez]

Beat me to it.


Ice had several different completely inescapable chain grabs AND wobbling. If you got grabbed by a half-competent IC player, you were done. D3's chain isn't nearly as abusive.

Precicely what I was going to say

 

[CT Chia]

ok for those of you that said i havnt done my research or barely played it, iv been playing brawl a lot, and just got done playing with mew2king this last weekend (the two of us stayed over velocity's place but thats besides the point), so we got hours and hours of brawl in and hours of chain grabs since m2k mains kd3 (and marth).

ask m2k yourself. for the characters that get trapped by it, you CAN NOT escape. the only way is if kd3 trips while doing it. and we tested it on a large variety of characters. not EVERY character, but most of them. so far we know the following CAN get out of it by rolling after the first grab: game and watch, zelda (i think), olimar, jigglypuff, and we assume squirtle but didnt try it. it generally seems that only lighter characters get out of it. if your character falls over after being thrown, u can get out. if you dont fall over (watch the animation) which most characters dont, its unescapable.

differences between this and wobbling. wobbling did eventually become banned in melee towards the end as it really didnt become popular till later on. wobbling is a more difficult maneuver to do with timing the hits. all kd3 has to do is grab down throw run grab. its that simple.

the chain grab can lead to death easily on stages with walk off platforms. we shouldnt be expected to ban every walk off stage since there are a lot of them. normally legal stages with walk off platforms: bridge of eldin (possibly legal), delfino plaza, castle siege, green hill zone, mario circuit, and possibly others.

if your not on a walk off stage however, it still racks up completely free damage, and a lot of it if it's across the stage. it will always put u off the stage automatically, making u be set up for an edgeguard even if the chain grab starts at 0.

i did say where we can draw the line: "For instance, no one is allowed to down throw chain grab with Dedede 2 or more times. Like they can be allowed to grab, down throw once, grab, but can not follow up with another chain grab. They could do another down throw if they wanted, but they can't follow up with a grab, and can instead do something like a ftilt."

clearly if u guys didnt kno its unescapable at all percents for over 30 characters in the game you guys havent played it enough


o yea and i put this here not in the kd3 forum cause its talking about competitive play as in tournaments which affects everyone

 

[icethatclimbs]

DDD for top tier!!!

 

[MRX]

Umm... when Dee Dee Dee chaingrabs, it is easy to get out. When I played someone both with people and also had that happen when I entered the Nintendo tournament, I can get out of such a "technique." Actually, chaingrabbing in Brawl is easier this time around, however, it is easy to get out, if you know how to wobble out the chain or dodge them.

 

[Papapaint]

differences between this and wobbling. wobbling did eventually become banned in melee towards the end as it really didnt become popular till later on. wobbling is a more difficult maneuver to do with timing the hits. all kd3 has to do is grab down throw run grab. its that simple.

Wobbling is not much more difficult, to be honest. I played Ice for a couple months, and Wobbling, their chain grabs... it's all a matter of learning the timing, and then you can do it in your sleep.

Don't get grabbed.

 

[worm]

I was once eliminated in a Melee tournament by a Peach who chain-grabbed my Falco every life. It didn't even feel like we were playing smash, and I hated it.

That being said, I still don't think you can ban chain-grabbing, because the opponent just needs to figure out a way to avoid or counter it.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Did we ban Shiek's chaingrab in melee? NO! It knocked out half the cast, but that doesn't matter at all.

A ban has to not only be warented, but also easily enforcable. This is easy with stage and item bans because you can simply turn them off. With tactic bans you'd have to have judges at every match to ensure there is no foul play.

You drew the line at 2 grabs. But what if they do three? What if someone just claims that they did three, when they only did two? It will just be his word against yours.

Tactics by far are the hardest aspect of gameplay to ban, and thus are considered the last option. Before banning a tactic, we'd sure as hell ban any stages that make this tactic broken (like waveshining).

 

[CT Chia]

Umm... when Dee Dee Dee chaingrabs, it is easy to get out. When I played someone both with people and also had that happen when I entered the Nintendo tournament, I can get out of such a "technique." Actually, chaingrabbing in Brawl is easier this time around, however, it is easy to get out, if you know how to wobble out the chain or dodge them.

then you must have been playing one of the few characters i named. if your anyone else, its impossible to escape from. impossible. no matter what.

Wobbling is not much more difficult, to be honest. I played Ice for a couple months, and Wobbling, their chain grabs... it's all a matter of learning the timing, and then you can do it in your sleep.

Don't get grabbed.

i didnt say wobbling was hard, but i said its harder. perfecting wobbling takes a good amount of practice, as u said a couple months. dedede's chain grab? like a couple hours

 

[Card]

differences between this and wobbling. wobbling did eventually become banned in melee towards the end as it really didnt become popular till later on. wobbling is a more difficult maneuver to do with timing the hits. all kd3 has to do is grab down throw run grab. its that simple.

Ice Climber Infinite (As it was first called) originally appeared very early in the history of Melee. I forget who was the one who discovered it, but it was immediately banned shortly afterwards. Flash-forward to 2006-2007 where Wobbles_The_Phoenix used and popularized the Ice Climber Infinite (it was then called Wobbling).

The Smash community had a completely different mindset during the time the Ice Climber Infinite was found, and during the time Wobbling was popularized. The Community had evolved, and more importantly matured. What was once considered a completely overpowered and "cheap" tactic has now been branded as a "It's easy to avoid... Just don't get grabbed" mentality.

This is the exact same thing with King Dedede's (might I add... totally weak compared to Melee chain-grabs) chain throw. To ask to ban this tactic is seriously a step backwards for the community and regulations as a whole. Quite frankly, I am surprised people are complaining about Dedede's chain-throw since it is such a lackluster move in comparison to so many of the advanced chain-grabs found in Melee.

i did say where we can draw the line: "For instance, no one is allowed to down throw chain grab with Dedede 2 or more times. Like they can be allowed to grab, down throw once, grab, but can not follow up with another chain grab. They could do another down throw if they wanted, but they can't follow up with a grab, and can instead do something like a ftilt."

Clearly you misunderstood what I meant by where we can draw the line.
It has nothing to do with Dedede's Chaingrab. It has to do with Dedede's Chaingrab in comparison to the rest of the advanced techniques on the Roster.

Have you seen Olimar 0-to-Death Combo's which involve chain grabbing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0vovoUgcao
Should we ban this too? From what I've read no matter which way you DI it's inescapable, and all it requires is Olimar to have the correct Pikmin lineup. This is just one small example of techniques which have been found in the short time the game has been released. There is BOUND to be hundreds more.

Where can we draw the line on what techniques must be banned and what techniques shouldn't? How is it fair that Dedede should get his Chain-grab banned but Olimar can keep his 0-to-death? What about the new Ice Climbers Alternating Grabs. I am sure someone will master that technique as well and learn how to use it effectively to chain grab. Do we ban that also?

o yea and i put this here not in the kd3 forum cause its talking about competitive play as in tournaments which affects everyone

and just so you know, Putting this on the King Dedede Forum is just going to get a completely biased response of Dedede fans screaming "Dedede for top tier!". It's a good thing you posted it here.




In the end, this is just a very average chain-grab that allows Dedede an advantage on Walk-Off Stages. I fail to see how this is ban-worthy whatsoever.

 

[RyanRF]

Things will sort themselves out naturally like they did in melee:

-Walk off stages will be banned (similar to the waveshine abuse on yoshi's island)
-KD3 will end up higher on the tier list (like sheik, who could chaingrab many characters)
-Characters succeptible to the chain grab will suffer in a competitive environment and end up lower on the tier list

 

[Papapaint]

then you must have been playing one of the few characters i named. if your anyone else, its impossible to escape from. impossible. no matter what.





i didnt say wobbling was hard, but i said its harder. perfecting wobbling takes a good amount of practice, as u said a couple months. dedede's chain grab? like a couple hours

So we should allow infinites, but only if they're hard to do. Got it.

The only way this would break the game would be if everyone were to start using D3. However, as I said, if D3 is average on all other fronts, you just don't get grabbed. If Wobbling, which actually only took me a week or two to use consistently (I said I played them for two months, not learned them for two months) didn't cause everyone ever to suddenly start using Ice, then this won't cause everyone to start using D3.

 

[Falling Whistness]

then you must have been playing one of the few characters i named. if your anyone else, its impossible to escape from. impossible. no matter what.

You shouldn't use definitive language like that unless you've really done your research and studied it. There have been a ton of infinites that people have slowly figured out the timing on how to break out of.

Bottom line: Does chain grabbing make D3 broken? No. I don't think it does. As such, no banning is warranted.

 

[Speedsk8er]

Beat me to it.

"Don't get grabbed"

Ice had several different completely inescapable chain grabs AND wobbling. If you got grabbed by a half-competent IC player, you were done. D3's chain isn't nearly as abusive.

The only things that are inescapable from IC is wobbling, Ledge chaingrabbing and Dthrow reverse dair on CF/Ganon. Even then, the fact that A) Our grab range wasn't absurd and B) Nana's easily gimped made it easily to avoid altogether.

That's not to say that Dedede's grab game is broken. NOPE. It's not. It'll just be hard to follow the "Don't get grabbed" credo. LEt's have more time go by before we start getting ban-happy.

 

[HugS]

I still don't see how this can be THAT damaging. What's the guaranteed kill after the last grab? How much damage can he really rack up with a Single chain grab that lasts about 3 grabs max on most stages?

As for stages without ledges, those are rarely ever considered neutrals. So expect the possibility of being taken to one on a counter pick and act accordingly with your character choices. I don't see what the big deal is.

 

[xDARKLINKx]

ok for those of you that said i havnt done my research or barely played it, iv been playing brawl a lot, and just got done playing with mew2king this last weekend (the two of us stayed over velocity's place but thats besides the point), so we got hours and hours of brawl in and hours of chain grabs since m2k mains kd3 (and marth).

ask m2k yourself. for the characters that get trapped by it, you CAN NOT escape. the only way is if kd3 trips while doing it. and we tested it on a large variety of characters. not EVERY character, but most of them. so far we know the following CAN get out of it by rolling after the first grab: game and watch, zelda (i think), olimar, jigglypuff, and we assume squirtle but didnt try it. it generally seems that only lighter characters get out of it. if your character falls over after being thrown, u can get out. if you dont fall over (watch the animation) which most characters dont, its unescapable.

differences between this and wobbling. wobbling did eventually become banned in melee towards the end as it really didnt become popular till later on. wobbling is a more difficult maneuver to do with timing the hits. all kd3 has to do is grab down throw run grab. its that simple.

the chain grab can lead to death easily on stages with walk off platforms. we shouldnt be expected to ban every walk off stage since there are a lot of them. normally legal stages with walk off platforms: bridge of eldin (possibly legal), delfino plaza, castle siege, green hill zone, mario circuit, and possibly others.

if your not on a walk off stage however, it still racks up completely free damage, and a lot of it if it's across the stage. it will always put u off the stage automatically, making u be set up for an edgeguard even if the chain grab starts at 0.

i did say where we can draw the line: "For instance, no one is allowed to down throw chain grab with Dedede 2 or more times. Like they can be allowed to grab, down throw once, grab, but can not follow up with another chain grab. They could do another down throw if they wanted, but they can't follow up with a grab, and can instead do something like a ftilt."

clearly if u guys didnt kno its unescapable at all percents for over 30 characters in the game you guys havent played it enough


o yea and i put this here not in the kd3 forum cause its talking about competitive play as in tournaments which affects everyone

FUkCING JOKE.

Are you serious??

You wanna ban his chaingrab, or better yet make it legal to only do it once??

And i dont know what m2k or whoever was doing but you CGed an olimar??? LOL

Either way not many characters can get 100% chained. off the top my head i know samus, DDD, bowser, charizard, falcon get it the worst, its the heavy characters that cant really escape it. Its not very powerful though...nothing like a nice 175-300% from a wobbles, or even a regular ICs chaingrab. U might get 30something% if you do it right and if you do it on either of the far sides of a BIG stage.

Snake and i think ike can jab out of it, fox and falco fall, same with kirby and olimar and metaknight and squirtle and toonlink and pikachu and jiggly puff and diddy kong and game & watch and ness and lucas and who knows who else. Marth slides too far usually, same with luigi. Mario peach waio wolf get CGed. Watever though i dont really care cuz its not getting banned or modified or anything, just stop being a ***** and dont get grabbed.

 

[CT Chia]

How are ppl like Card and Hugs cool here? lol Theyr the only ones providing valid counter arguments compared to everyone else.

For the record to a couple things I've heard. You can not chain grab olimar to the person who misunderstood it. hes one of the few who don't.

next, its not percent based. if you can get chained at all, u can get chained at any %. anyone but those few characters i named (and maybe like 3 others i havnt tried yet, 4 tops) get CG'd at ALL percents, even 250+ or as low as 0.

As for on stages with no walk off edges, it does a good amount of damage. Average about 4 grabs. Each throw does 8%. After the first or second they do 7% due to damage depletion. if your at a lil higher damage tho so u dont escape him grabbing u right away (wiggling out), you can jab inbetween chain grabs for more damage. then at the end of the stage you can follow up with a stronger throw like a forward throw.

so your pretty much looking at 30 free damage if you're at 0, and more if your at a higher % and already being edgeguarded. if you DI down (or get thrown down) KD3 can drop down, swallow with B, and suicide kill. if you go up, you can easily get hit by more aerials. these arent guaranteed things to happen, but no doubt it sets up for a bad edgeguard.

im not necessarily saying it should be banned, but the idea crossed my mind and i wanted to see what others thought

 

[Papapaint]

How are ppl like Card and Hugs cool here? lol Theyr the only ones providing valid counter arguments compared to everyone else.

I've provided a quite reasonable counter argument. You claimed that since this was easier, it was more abusable.

That holds true on a casual level, but not at all on a competitive level. If this technique is broken enough to consistently win games unquestioningly, then it doesn't matter if it takes one day or one month to get it down, it's all the same on the competitive level. You wouldn't see anything but D3 placing.

For example, Ice didn't suddenly become the only tournament-viable characters because they're so weak in other areas, despite the fact that any competitive player could pull off their infinites with just a little practice.

 

[BentoBox]

All in all, M2k's D3 owns you and you felt the need to rant.

 

[Allin]

hmmm how about one you can di out of the grab (ive tried it works)2 Dont get grabbed :O!

 

[Blue sHell]

Chib, Dedede's chaingrab is pretty monstrous but all it does is basically setup for an edgegaurd each time which could or could not be a big deal. It doesn't assure a kill, it isn't so bad. This chaingrab is kind of like what Peach and Captain Falcon players experienced against Fox players in Melee where he'd just waveshine you from one side of the field to the other side and into an edgegaurd situation. Again, really that wasn't so bad at all.

It is a weapon in Dedede's arsonal, but really its not all to bad, it barely racks up too much damage most of the time. If you think about it, no stage with walk off walls will be legal in tournaments, and due to the things we've been seeing, it seems like stages with very obvious walls wont be legal too(maybe counter pick for some). So overall its not a major blow to the game.

On the other hand, really, Dedede isn't the person you should be worried about in brawl:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=lKUXz1EWD5U


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6zk8HRscgI (around 1:24)


Ice Climbers are at it again with they're chaingrabbing frenzy.

PS: Void is a monster.


EDIT: Found another one:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=RwwJoMFGlZc&feature=related

 

[webrunner]

no stage with walk off walls will be legal in tournaments

That's the question here, if there is no way to inescapably bring someone horizontally forever then walk-off stages have no reason to be banned.


Also, if it only works on pure horizontal then some may not be banned since they have inclined walk-offs.

 

[Blue sHell]

That's the question here, if there is no way to inescapably bring someone horizontally forever then walk-off stages have no reason to be banned.


Also, if it only works on pure horizontal then some may not be banned since they have inclined walk-offs.

No, no, you don't get it.

No matter what, walk off stages will always be banned because of(but not limited to) a little character called Donkey Kong that's been around for some time now.

His strategy will be to seriously just camp until he get a grab, then cargo to throw. There are other reasons why too, but this one is the most blatant. Plus, look at some of those IC vids I posted, lol.

 

[Subtle]

Banning a specific technique is a terrible idea. Only use it twice in a row? Then they'll chain grab you twice, jab you once, and chain grab again.

People will abuse whatever bottom line you set. Banning a character is dumb, and banning a stage is dumb.

Peer moderation has been suggestion but beacuse this is the only case where its needed, it seems a bit excessive. What would the punishment for over chain grabbing be? Loose a stock? Forfit the round? Get off on a warning?

Honestly, there is only one solution: Don't get grabbed.

 

[Heavyarms2050]

i suffer so many times from fox drill shine and sheik chain grabs, (i play link). So I don't it likely they'll ban it

 

[shadydentist]

If we don't ban chain throwing, one of two things happen:

1. Every tournament ends up being dominated by D3

2. People figure out a way around it, and life goes on as usual.

Lets consider banning it if #1 happens.