Decreasing Warp Distance

[KishSquared]

When running our Brawl+ tournament at the start of January, we used the code that disables automatic ledge grabs. This did work a bit to prevent ledge-camping, but I found that this only affected certain characters. Specifically, characters that can up-B into a ledge. So characters like...

Snake
DDD
G&W
Sonic

These guys are not at all affected by the code. So, in order to nerf these characters' ability to ledge camp (and everyone else for that matter), I really believe that we need a code to reduce warp distance in general.

Does anyone know whether there's a single value for warp distance, or is it character-specific? Or maybe stage-specific or (worse yet) ledge-specific? How feasible is such a code?

 

[The Cape]

The recoveries all seem fine, those just have slightly different properties than the others. I really dont think that they need to change anything relating to these recoveries.

 

[KishSquared]

It's not the recoveries that are the problem. It's the fact that you can ledge camp still by dropping and jumping. You can very safely grab the ledge by jumping in from below. In Melee, you could edge-guard people by using moves that hit below the ledge, but not so in Brawl. The no auto-ledge grab fixes that for some characters' up-Bs, but it doesn't solve the problem for simple jumping/falling at the ledge.

Sorry, maybe I shouldn't have made it sound like I'm trying to nerf those characters specifically. I'm just saying that these characters made me see the problem with the warp distance.

 

[The Cape]

So you are saying that its harder to edguard off the stage with characters not mentioned due to the fact that they grab the ledge too easy? I guess I dont completly understand your agruement. Can you break it down/reword it?

 

[shanus]

So you are saying that its harder to edguard off the stage with characters not mentioned due to the fact that they grab the ledge too easy? I guess I dont completly understand your agruement. Can you break it down/reword it?

As in they can sit at the edge, drop down, and regrab it with almost no danger whatsoever due to invincibility because they can grab it from far away. So they can just camp the ledge all day long and force you to approach. Look up a video on youtube called Planking for an expertly not cool example of it all!

 

[KishSquared]

Exactly. Moves that are designed to hit below the ledge are powerless against ledge campers due to the warp distance. It's also very tricky to sneak in and grab the ledge because of it.

Forgive me for confusing the issue by mentioning specific characters. This affects ALL characters, whereas the auto-ledgegrab code only fixes the issue for up-B moves specifically.

 

[MookieRah]

I think the warp distance should be cut down a bit. Several characters can grab the edge from so far away that edgeguarding is completely out of the question. It sorta defeats the purpose. That said, I'd like to see upB enhancements if this hurts someone that needs everything he can get from recovery.

 

[shanus]

I think the warp distance should be cut down a bit. Several characters can grab the edge from so far away that edgeguarding is completely out of the question. It sorta defeats the purpose. That said, I'd like to see upB enhancements if this hurts someone that needs everything he can get from recovery.

I wonder if there is a way we can reduce the warp distance for jumping to the edge but maybe widen the warp distance slightly for special recoveries. I doubt it though.

 

[KishSquared]

There's probably no reason to do that unless it's really needed though. Start with the reduced warp distance code, then modify it as needed.

Even then, I can't think of anyone that needs that warp distance to recover. We're not talking about making it impossible to grab the ledge. Just think Melee.

In Melee, was there even a warp distance, or was there a set time that you needed to be in contact with the ledge before grabbing it?

 

[Dark Sonic]

In Melee, was there even a warp distance, or was there a set time that you needed to be in contact with the ledge before grabbing it?

In melee the characters had character specific grab boxes, which were generally longer horizontally than vertically (they grabbed it from further away rather than further down).

And who could forget good ol' Dr Mario and his ridiculous ledgegrab range.

 

[leafgreen386]

I'm actually not sure what the problem is here. I thought that it was impossible to grab the ledge while in the middle of a jump? Which means the opponent is required to drop far enough down that their double jump will just barely reach the grab box of the ledge. The lagless ledges code we have now decreases the amount of invincibility you have on the ledge with the trade-off of being able to act sooner, so you should be able to hit someone as they drop, or even run off with an aerial if it's completely necessary. I haven't played anyone who's used planking against me in brawl+ yet, though, so this is all theory.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Characters with good uairs cause a major problem.

 

[The Cape]

If this is like Melee, you grab the ledge while moving down and inside the "ledge grab box" area.

I think reducing the warp box a bit is definetly a good idea, and fix it as needed.

 

[KishSquared]

On second thought, the mechanics probably are very similar to Melee's, but the warp distance is HUGE.

The effects of this, again, are that moves that hit below the stage NEVER hit someone trying to grab the ledge. Try f-smashing someone with Bowser or Marth who is trying to reach the ledge. It'll never hit, unless they hang long enough to lose invulnerability.

I haven't seen any hackers comment on this yet. Is this code possible to develop?

 

[leafgreen386]

Well, I'm no hacker, but it seems like it'd be one of the harder things in the game to change.

The game obviously stores the data for every collision box in the game somewhere, and ultimately what you would have to do is replace one collision box with another one (and make the new one take on the properties of the old one). I'm sure some character's attack would have an appropriate collision box, but the other problem is... are all grab boxes in the game the same? Having to change this on every stage for both ledges could get really line intensive, not to mention how hard it might be to code.

One piece of good news is that characters' hitboxes scale with size... although the good news pretty much ends there, since there's no ingame modifier for grabbox size. It might be possible to globally modify the size of all grabboxes, but... I wouldn't know, and it would probably come with some unintended effects, too.

 

[KishSquared]

What are the mechanics for modifying the auto-ledge grab during up-B moves? I mean, what exactly did they change in that?

 

[Dark Sonic]

What are the mechanics for modifying the auto-ledge grab during up-B moves? I mean, what exactly did they change in that?

They added a "check" (not sure what the exact term is) that disables you from being able to grab if your character is "rising." Since up B's generally send people...up, they are not able to grab the ledge (until their up B stops moving up of course).

 

[KishSquared]

Ah, so the same logic wouldn't apply to the warp distance.

So is this not possible?