Data Decisive Games Introduction Thread (make sure to check the new forum rules as well!)

[Wots All This Then?]

No kill scumteams arepretty damn hard for scum to win.

 

[frozenmarsh751]

expect a stomping.

Never underestimate the badness of SWF Town. I expect to lose every time I roll a lime-colored or light blue role PM.

No kill scumteams shouldn't exist. No reason to **** all over a fundamental of the game like that regardless of how "forward thinking" or "innovative" the mod thinks he's being, IMO.

 

[Xatres]

I wouldn't tag anything like "innovative" or "forward thinking" on a no-kill scum setup. It's just a subversion of a traditional game.

Those kinds of setups are bound to happen if you play the game long enough, if for no other reason than experimentation.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

No kill scumteams arepretty damn hard for scum to win.

Having won some no-kill scum games pretty handily, I feel obliged to disagree.

Isn't TWEWY no-kill?

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Yea. It's also the hardest faction to win as in that game.
I find it funny that the indy has the easiest chance of winning but has never won that setup to my knowledge.

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

Having won some no-kill scum games pretty handily, I feel obliged to disagree.

Isn't TWEWY no-kill?

I don't get why people have a hard on for TWEWY. That game is hella hard for scum to win. If the SK kills the FBI then it's basically try and kill the SK before he shoots one of you or you're gonna have a bad time endgame. If he doesn't shoot the FBI, while at any point the FBI finds the SK then you're going to have the worst kind of end game possible with an unkillable confirmed town. If one of the scum members die then it's easier for town to draw connections, and it's supper hard because it means you have to appeal to one player the rest of the game in order to win while still looking towny enough to everyone else so they get lynched instead of you. This game really is town's game to lose.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

and thats why it is so fun. because of how hard it is to win for any faction.A win is earned in that game.

 

[Xivii]

Never underestimate the badness of SWF Town. I expect to lose every time I roll a lime-colored or light blue role PM.


No kill scumteams shouldn't exist. No reason to **** all over a fundamental of the game like that regardless of how "forward thinking" or "innovative" the mod thinks he's being, IMO.

Well it's not really just SWF town. It's pretty much most towns. You just need the right crop of players no matter what site or w/e you're playing on. I'd really like to see a demonstrative game consisting of Vanderzant, Kataefi, Omni, EE, Frozen, sworddancer., Joey, Kuz, and July. Possibly Circus, Marshy, and J as well. I guarantee that if they were to play a hundred games, more often than not, town would come out victorious. This has little to do with one's ability to be right, but rather one's ability to play mafia.

Vandy, Kata, and July have the fundamentals of mafia down to the blood cells of the bone marrow. They are overall just really good at reading, making cohesive posts, playing with their head and cooperating.
Omni does not ***** out when it comes to lynching inactives. He will not stand for any inactivity. He understands that in order to properly form the picture of the whole, you actually need all the pieces.
EE and Frozen equals walls of content that is relevant. They know how to debate and look at the very depths of of a persons argument.
sworddancer and Joey doubt themselves far too much. The do not nearly have the best reads, but they play the game so well. They look at things from a completely logical perspective and don't let all the AtE and raging get in the way.
Kuz is just godly when it comes to reads. He is on par with Ryker in that area. On top of this he is actually able to distinctively show the scum intent behind a player's actions.

I have only really seen scum play from Circus, but if he plays town the way he does scum, then I would certainly add him to this. I don't know how Marshy would play with this group. I only ever glimpse his full potential as he always is preoccupied with getting rid of the fodder in a bad town. I imagine that with a good town he would actually be able to play the way he wants to, in which case I would certainly add him to this. J is really good no doubt. His reads are almost always spot on. His play style can lack a certain foundation that those above have however.

Obviously Ryker is one of the best players in Dgames, but most of the time he's playing Ryker's game more than a mafia game. This is detrimental to the overall outcome of things as it puts everything on him. It takes away from the other's ability to play the game. And it causes many people to try and emulate his play. But they don't have the walk behind the talk as he does: See myself, soup, laundry, ranmaru, bardull, Rake, etc. I honestly think Ryker has been a huge influence in the horrible way that much of dgames goes about playing.

Cello_Marl is the best player to have come across dgames. But he also puts everything upon himself and completely disrupts the cohesion of town. I do think that if he was given absolute authority, town would win 80-95% of the time that he was town. But who wants to do that?

 

[frozenmarsh751]

I'm not touching that right now. Whichever side has more dumb loses. Explains a lot.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

where's swiss in there?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Zen, I'm not gonna go any deeper into your post but I'll just say that I disagree with at least 50% of it.

 

[Xivii]

Marshy I don't get what you're saying there. I wasn't disagreeing, I was adding.

 

[frozenmarsh751]

werd im just sayin im along the same lines of gheb regarding that post

yo son

we had a game in the broom where ee and frozen got into it. i skimmed the **** outta that exchange. pretty sure their individual posts were longer than every post ive ever made combined

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

I don't get why people have a hard on for TWEWY. That game is hella hard for scum to win. If the SK kills the FBI then it's basically try and kill the SK before he shoots one of you or you're gonna have a bad time endgame. If he doesn't shoot the FBI, while at any point the FBI finds the SK then you're going to have the worst kind of end game possible with an unkillable confirmed town. If one of the scum members die then it's easier for town to draw connections, and it's supper hard because it means you have to appeal to one player the rest of the game in order to win while still looking towny enough to everyone else so they get lynched instead of you. This game really is town's game to lose.

In theory town is actually forced to work with the mafia after a mislynch an a town nk, which is one of the strengths of the set up imo. If the indy is actually lynched Day 2, then the game just becomes who can seem more townie to the FBI agent (meaning that both the vts and mafia just have to try to outplay each other at that point). However, if town is mislynched again Day 2 then sk is forced to work with town Night 2 so to avoid being engamed. I consider this to be a kind of natural balance which is why I like this set up so much.

Even if mafia is whipped out Day 1 and Night 1 the game still isn't really won for town imo, although in this specific situation town would get a distinct advantage due to having two clears.

This game is hard on mafia, I will say that. Which is why I like the Simpsons mafia variation where the FBI agent could be between mafia and town.

 

[Xatres]

Vote: Zen

He's buddying up to all the best players. Clearly scum.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

The Reason SWF Town fails to win games because there is such a clash of egos and nobody wants to cooperate with one another. It's a fight for influence and sometimes that influence can be in the wrong direction. Take for example Deadpool Allstars. Me and Marshy were scum and we practically had so much influence in that game that we basically had Town ML themselves about five times. Nobody questioned our motives because our tone of posts and how we were handling ourselves was townie enough that people didn't care that we were lynching townies. The same deal goes with my win in Simpsons mafia. I was the bigger influence and it caused the town to lynch the SK on day one and I even carried my V/LA partner in that game. I'm not boasting about myself because there are other examples besides myself. How about Mass Effect Mafia? Scum gained the greater influence and basically buried the town. Or Awkward Moments? Kuz gained all influence and nobody stood up to him and allowed him to win. Do I need to go on further with this? The reason SWF Town is not strong is because they are not strong as a group. That isn't to say there isn't individual strengths, which is why SWF Town can be successful. The main problem lies in activity and effort, and SWF is known for constant replacements and stagnation of posts. It's understandable yet annoying. If SWF Town wants to win more games they have to fix this. They can't just rely on someone to sheep, because most games usually the power player in the whole group is the one who decides everything. I've never seen a lynch decided by someone like Ranmaru (no offense) or even BSL. That isn't to say they're bad because of it, it's just that SWF takes credit to reputation and meta more than anything. It's why Ryker gets away with what he does. It's why marshy gets away with what he does. SWF Town can be a force of nature if used wisely. I've seen Town just steamroll scum, and usually it's because people actually tried and activity was consistent enough for townies to town-read each other and make the right decisions by simple conversation.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

I don't know what Zen is talking about but I don't try and emulate Ryker's play at all. I'm my own entity much like everyone else.

 

[ranmaru]

No offense taken. I need to improve my reads. We listen to Ryker because we know his reads can be good sometimes. Yet we should also do our own thinking and really think about even what he says, not just sheep 'em without a thought.

I also don't emulate ryker. I just try to be active as town cuz that's what I think is good as town... and try to tunnel on a suspect because I feel I gotta do that to pressure scum (if they are scum). I'm just wrong alot. ;-;

If I subconsciously (or unconsciously) emulate Ryker, than ok. I like his play, especially as town.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The Reason SWF Town fails to win games because there is such a clash of egos and nobody wants to cooperate with one another. It's a fight for influence and sometimes that influence can be in the wrong direction. Take for example Deadpool Allstars. Me and Marshy were scum and we practically had so much influence in that game that we basically had Town ML themselves about five times. Nobody questioned our motives because our tone of posts and how we were handling ourselves was townie enough that people didn't care that we were lynching townies. The same deal goes with my win in Simpsons mafia. I was the bigger influence and it caused the town to lynch the SK on day one and I even carried my V/LA partner in that game. I'm not boasting about myself because there are other examples besides myself. How about Mass Effect Mafia? Scum gained the greater influence and basically buried the town. Or Awkward Moments? Kuz gained all influence and nobody stood up to him and allowed him to win. Do I need to go on further with this? The reason SWF Town is not strong is because they are not strong as a group. That isn't to say there isn't individual strengths, which is why SWF Town can be successful. The main problem lies in activity and effort, and SWF is known for constant replacements and stagnation of posts. It's understandable yet annoying. If SWF Town wants to win more games they have to fix this. They can't just rely on someone to sheep, because most games usually the power player in the whole group is the one who decides everything. I've never seen a lynch decided by someone like Ranmaru (no offense) or even BSL. That isn't to say they're bad because of it, it's just that SWF takes credit to reputation and meta more than anything. It's why Ryker gets away with what he does. It's why marshy gets away with what he does. SWF Town can be a force of nature if used wisely. I've seen Town just steamroll scum, and usually it's because people actually tried and activity was consistent enough for townies to town-read each other and make the right decisions by simple conversation.

tl;dr tools


...

 

[#HBC | Kary]

Opinions were like kittens, I was giving them away.

 

[th3kuzinator]

My reads are awful go read any game with an active Kataefi in it for an exemplar of how you should play this game.

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

I don't understand how Kataefi is so ****ing amazing at figuring things out like his ability to read minds just convinces me further that he is actually an alien.

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

SWF Town can be a force of nature if used wisely. I've seen Town just steamroll scum, and usually it's because people actually tried and activity was consistent enough for townies to town-read each other and make the right decisions by simple conversation.

I don't think it's a coincidence that most of those games that managed over 3000 posts have town victories. I think activity is inherently townie. As Kuzi pointed out in his interview the higher amount of activity makes it harder for scum to keep up fake town intention and in turn makes it easier for actual townies to recognize each other.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

/in small



should still be a smiley imo **** you faceboards

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Also Town is stupid because they don't ever question their leaders until it's far too late. This site puts far too much emphasis on who is right and who is wrong, either in action or opinion. If you can lynch scum, let alone two of them, pretty much of your own volition, you've earned yourself a pass to endgame. Bussing is super strong right now because no one will question your logic behind the bus, especially if you're a solid enough player to avoid getting lynched in endgame.

It's not a problem of sheeping, because sometimes sheeping is right to do. It's a problem that there are certain power players that can simply deconstruct the entirety of a town and reform it around them and not a single person will argue with them along the way, let alone argue them down in endgame. It's really easy to win as scum right now if you're willing to bus your own mates and then ride that to endgame.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

I don't know what Zen is talking about but I don't try and emulate Ryker's play at all. I'm my own entity much like everyone else.

This. It's easy for me to come off as Ryker but that's because I've hydra'd with him the most and can mimic him in case I need to in thread. I've also got the longest history with him outta anyone as he and I have butt heads in mafia for many, many games. Underplaying what I do because I'm trying to "emulate Ryker" is ****ty and definitely undersells myself or anyone else who Zen listed as a mimic. That's not fair to any of us. If you want to ***** about how town's being destroyed, look to the people who refuse to grow a pair and call us out in endgame.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

This is why I like being Ruy, cause I'm not town or scum I'm just Ruy and do Ruy things.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

this is reminding me of the E&A endgame a bit.

 

[Xivii]

Ran for you I was referring to the ongoing game. You've been fine before that.

 

[Xivii]

werd im just sayin im along the same lines of gheb regarding that post

yo son

we had a game in the broom where ee and frozen got into it. i skimmed the **** outta that exchange. pretty sure their individual posts were longer than every post ive ever made combined

haha well maybe just having one of them

 

[Xivii]

This. It's easy for me to come off as Ryker but that's because I've hydra'd with him the most and can mimic him in case I need to in thread. I've also got the longest history with him outta anyone as he and I have butt heads in mafia for many, many games. Underplaying what I do because I'm trying to "emulate Ryker" is ****ty and definitely undersells myself or anyone else who Zen listed as a mimic. That's not fair to any of us. If you want to ***** about how town's being destroyed, look to the people who refuse to grow a pair and call us out in endgame.

I don't even think emulate is the right word. Its more like the essence of our play has geared towards the kind of game that Ry created. It's no longer really mafia, but rather a sort of ***** at each other game. This definitely isn't something that was consciously made, but it's just the way that we have learned to play the game. It's the culture that has formed.

 

[frozenmarsh751]

Heh. Thought this was Toad for a second.

 

[Raziek]

I don't even think emulate is the right word. Its more like the essence of our play has geared towards the kind of game that Ry created. It's no longer really mafia, but rather a sort of ***** at each other game. This definitely isn't something that was consciously made, but it's just the way that we have learned to play the game. It's the culture that has formed.

I disagree with this.

Most of what takes place it still very much mafia, but the problem lies in the fact that some players are desperate for thread control, and the means by which they acquire it has become "Ryker'ing" a thread. It's something that can be combatted, but the core problem is that Town is divided into leaders who shouldn't always lead, and followers who often need to actually think for themselves.

The game is still there, but co-operation is something sorely lacking in most Townies, who would rather bullheadedly pursue their own reads above all else, at the cost of Town's cohesion.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

I don't even think emulate is the right word. Its more like the essence of our play has geared towards the kind of game that Ry created. It's no longer really mafia, but rather a sort of ***** at each other game. This definitely isn't something that was consciously made, but it's just the way that we have learned to play the game. It's the culture that has formed.

I somewhat agree and disagree. A lot of the culture was created by people simply allowing us to do it but in the same way, sometimes that fight for control is necessary. Look at OS All-Stars. You guys were set to lynch Ran and someone not Ryker until Ramses and I showed up in thread and forced both of those lynches on D1. I really only ***** at people making absolutely bad decisions with their time or being so inherently anti-town. It's never really about thread power to me--I don't give a **** if I'm leading town or not as long as the game's at least going in the right direction. When that's not happening, I call people out.

But I do agree in that I see people doing it. We are rather aggressive in the way that we play the game and that can really cause problems in the game. It's something that I've tried to dial back in recent games, as I know I've been causing problems with players using those methods. There is a time and place for them but that time and place is not the entire game.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Heh. Thought this was Toad for a second.

I miss that hydra as much as I miss permanent weather.

 

[#HBC | Acrostic]

I don't know how you guys still have any interest in this game. I just can't put up with it anymore.

 

[ranmaru]

I somewhat agree and disagree. A lot of the culture was created by people simply allowing us to do it but in the same way, sometimes that fight for control is necessary. Look at OS All-Stars. You guys were set to lynch Ran and someone not Ryker until Ramses and I showed up in thread and forced both of those lynches on D1. I really only ***** at people making absolutely bad decisions with their time or being so inherently anti-town. It's never really about thread power to me--I don't give a **** if I'm leading town or not as long as the game's at least going in the right direction. When that's not happening, I call people out.

But I do agree in that I see people doing it. We are rather aggressive in the way that we play the game and that can really cause problems in the game. It's something that I've tried to dial back in recent games, as I know I've been causing problems with players using those methods. There is a time and place for them but that time and place is not the entire game.

Like I said, I think it's good that we start to challenge the leaders, but not challenge them out of principle. Sometimes the leader can be town and wrong too, and then challenging them would be a good thing in that situation. Sometimes, the person being challenged is right and then you **** up. (But at least you tried to do what you thought was right, is what matters I think)

I won't be against something that I agree with. In E+A, I liked how you liked me, and I only questioned you guys because it seemed more like you cared more about my role than finding scum, which annoyed me... But again, I didn't really have much else to strengthen that doubt, and if I did, maybe others might have listened.

But I remember the comments like "Why the hell are you scum reading Ryker/Laundry??" Something like that. Like everyone didn't even consider it.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Everyone yelled at nabe over calling am scum.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Like I said, I think it's good that we start to challenge the leaders, but not challenge them out of principle.

I disagree. If somebody becomes a leader it's never wrong to question and challenge him.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

I disagree. If somebody becomes a leader it's never wrong to question and challenge him.

This is what I'm trying to get at. Too often, people keep staying sheep for too long. I would gladly give up my wins/MVP performances if it meant that Smashboards players had called me out in endgame after I had successfully lynched scum the first two days and then had a series of mislynches afterwards and lynched me on it. People can be right for the wrong reasons. People can be wrong for the right reasons as well. Townies can play like scum and scum can play like town. Likewise, your reads can simply be correct in that someone is scum but entirely for stupid things like gut reads or personal vendettas in certain cases that never actually justify the read.

This is why it's important to always re-evaluate your readslist because the dynamic of the game is always changed after each phase of the game. Every death provides more information for the game and so you need to always be checking with reads to see if they still line up.

I'm going to keep referencing EnA mafia because it was just that easy of a win after you guys removed yourselves and we managed to blow up Swissdumb the night before. I know that it's going to create paranoia but when Ryker and I were just coasting for the rest of the game and being completely apathetic, you guys needed to call us out and remove us if we didn't show up. We definitely would have an excuse for it but it was on you guys not to accept it and analyze why we were doing it. It didn't matter that we were right about FF and PJB. It didn't matter that we stuck our necks out and point-blank saved Sworddancer (because it did put him in our pocket for the rest of the game and gave us a powerful ally, regardless of shenanigans that occurred during the night phases). Sometimes scum will go as far as to do that ****. You still have to question those leaders because if you don't, these type of things will still happen to us. Right now, I feel as if the opportunity cost of bussing is far too low for certain players and the town as a whole needs to step up and start making that opportunity cost higher. Drew keeps saying that he would never be let live in 5-man or 3-man LyLo and yet I still see that ****** make it there consistently and win at least half the time. That should not be a thing.