Day, Night, and Dusk - Lycanroc for Smash Bros. Ultimate

[Garteam]

It's cool to see this thread still going strong, especially when nearly every other Nintendo thread is struggling to stay up, even for big characters like Dixie Kong and Bandana Deee.

I think Incineroar appealed to Pokemon fans, but not hardcore Smash fans.

From what I remember, Incineroar was fairly popular (maybe not as popular as Primarina) once SuMo released and people realized it wasn't a fighting type. Decidueye was actually the one who struggled, but its popularity among Smash fans made people think it was popular.

The popularity of the Gen 7 final evolutions really varied from region to region. In the west, Decidueye was basically the king of popularity, being seen as the "cool" starter in the same vein as Primarina. Likewise, Primarina was the most popular in Japan, where cute Pokemon tend to be the face of popularity. Incineroar was sort of the middle, being the most popular Pokemon in neither region but also the least disliked in either region.

Granted, this becomes a lot fuzzier when you factor in pre-evolutions. Rowlet is the most popular Alola Pokemon in Japan, so Decidueye gets a little bit more popular solely through its relation to the little owl.

Of course, none of this probably matters, considering Incineroar was probably chosen before any Alola Pokemon was revealed.

That's what feels so off about the moveset: It feels less like it was designed around the character and more like it was pre-built some time prior and then pasted on. There's nothing involving any character-specific abilities, no fire belt, no outright heel tactics, nothing hinting toward the persona just being an act, none of it. You got a Fire/Dark type whose moveset feels like that of a pure Fighting type, something any number of wrestler characters could've also done.

And when there were so many other options from Gen 7 that, arguably, had the potential to do some very unique things, no wonder it still feels like such a hollow decision. It feels like in this case, one fandom was used in order to appeal to a completely different one, as if they didn't matter and were no more than a tool to be exploited and then cast aside once they were no longer convenient. Which just so happened to play right into the hands of some...not-so-pleasant facets of the Smash community.

I've also been thinking about this idea recently. In particular, I think Incineroar's moveset may have originally been intended for Star Man from the NES game Pro Wrestling. Not only does Incineroar lack many of its unique qualities from its source materials, a lot of Incineroar's moves (such as his Alolan Whip, down smash, pummel, and side smash) look a lot like moves you can do in the NES game. Likewise, Star Man's signature move is his Flying Cross Chop, which Incineroar also has, despite the fact that Cross Chop has never been a move associated with the air in Pokemon). This would also explain why Incineroar struggles so much with mobility, despite the fact its speed isn't actually terrible. 60 speed isn't great, but it's nowhere near as slow as Smash makes it out to be. In Pro Wrestling NES however, the characters move extremely slow and much of the challenge is learning how to approach an opponent despite this speed, which would be much more logical to translate by making Star Man the slowest character in the game. It would also answer why Ultimate didn't have the retro revival that's been a tradition since Melee, one was planned but replaced by a more relevant character.

Of course, this could all be tin foil hat theories, but I still feel it's worth sharing.

I also think the anime might've had something to do with this. Game Freak and Sakurai probably saw how well cross-promotion with the anime worked with Greninja and wanted to replicate it for Ultimate. Game Freak knew Ash would have three Pokemon throughout the majority of his Alolan Adventure: Decidueye, Lycanroc, and Incineroar, so these would largely be the candidates that Sakurai had. Lycanroc was taken off the table as its Dusk form probably wasn't finalized yet, while Decidueye left because Game Freak decided that Rowlet would remain unevolved after they discovered how much of a marketing juggernaut it had become. This would really only leave Incineroar as the final option.

In hindsight, I think the best choice for a Gen VII rep would've been an Alolan trainer with Rowlet, Lycanroc, and Incineroar. That way, you get Gen VII's most popular Pokemon, Ash's ace, and the wrestler that Sakurai wanted. Plus, this team mirrors Ash's Alolan team in the same way that Pokemon Trainer's team mirrors Ash's Kanto team.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Of course, none of this probably matters, considering Incineroar was probably chosen before any Alola Pokemon was revealed.

Sakurai said he made his choice when SM was released. So it's the opposite of Greninja, where they couldn't see what was popular but it worked out great anyway.

 

[Cosmic77]

Sakurai said he made his choice when SM was released. So it's the opposite of Greninja, where they couldn't see what was popular but it worked out great anyway.

I mean, Japan was probably happy with Incineroar. Assuming Primarina was never in the running, that's likely another reason why Sakurai ultimately decided to choose it over Decidueye.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I mean, Japan was probably happy with Incineroar. Assuming Primarina was never in the running, that's likely another reason why Sakurai ultimately decided to choose it over Decidueye.

Are there any Japanese reactions to Incineroar compiled, like that one where they complain about Doom Slayer being a western animation gunman?

 

[Garteam]

Are there any Japanese reactions to Incineroar compiled, like that one where they complain about Doom Slayer being a western animation gunman?

Surprisingly, Japan didn't take well to Incineroar's reveal either. It could be the tough circumstances under which he was revealed (having the follow the Grinch leak and getting revealed through an all-around underwhelming direct certainly didn't help), but Japan's reactions ranged from "Who?", "No one wanted this", and (funny enough) "Screw Westerners for getting this character into Smash.

Warning, some of the language is pretty vulgar. It's 2ch (Japanese 4Chan), so no one's really holding back:

Spoiler

This is all from right after the reveal, so no idea on what Japanese fans think of the character now.

 

[Cosmic77]

Surprisingly, Japan didn't take well to Incineroar's reveal either. It could be the tough circumstances under which he was revealed (having the follow the Grinch leak and getting revealed through an all-around underwhelming direct certainly didn't help), but Japan's reactions ranged from "Who?", "No one wanted this", and (funny enough) "Screw Westerners for getting this character into Smash.

Warning, some of the language is pretty vulgar. It's 2ch (Japanese 4Chan), so no one's really holding back:

Spoiler

This is all from right after the reveal, so no idea on what Japanese fans think of the character now.

Ehh... I don't think this is the most accurate depiction of how Japan reacted to Incineroar. Most of these don't even seem targeted toward Incineroar.

It's a pretty stark comparison to how people reacted on YouTube, like this guy.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Surprisingly, Japan didn't take well to Incineroar's reveal either. It could be the tough circumstances under which he was revealed (having the follow the Grinch leak and getting revealed through an all-around underwhelming direct certainly didn't help), but Japan's reactions ranged from "Who?", "No one wanted this", and (funny enough) "Screw Westerners for getting this character into Smash.

Warning, some of the language is pretty vulgar. It's 2ch (Japanese 4Chan), so no one's really holding back:

Spoiler

This is all from right after the reveal, so no idea on what Japanese fans think of the character now.

"all playable Pokemon are popular except Pichu"
Except Pichu is actually one of Japan's top 10 favorite mons from its generation, unlike Incineroar. Yes I may be biased, considering what kinds of Pokemon populated a list I made months ago.

 

[RandomAce]

Off topic, but Delzethin I remembered checking on your twitter feed about wanting a Halloween Lycanroc picture for Halloween, a bit late but I... think I have one?

Spoiler: Slightly big image

(Credit to Ivan Jhang)

Kinda forgot that finding Lycanroc art is hard.

 

[AinsOoalGown]

That's what feels so off about the moveset: It feels less like it was designed around the character and more like it was pre-built some time prior and then pasted on. There's nothing involving any character-specific abilities, no fire belt, no outright heel tactics, nothing hinting toward the persona just being an act, none of it. You got a Fire/Dark type whose moveset feels like that of a pure Fighting type, something any number of wrestler characters could've also done.
.

As someone who likes both Incineroar and Lycanrok, had both in my teams (Daylight and Dusk in the latter case) and would love both making in if it was possible: this post has some of the biggest objective lies and strawgrasping I've ever seen in this site, and I used to lurk a lot before making an account.

*"character specific abilities": literally its neutral-b is its signature move, not even mentioning its final smash,

* a "fighting type moveset" when half the specials are dark type and one is made up,

*"no heel tactics" when its full of wrestling moves, has revenge, and the taunts

*"no persona" when its the only fighter to pull taunts after every move

Everything from the reveal trailer to the victory screens oozes with details that makes it feel like everything was tailor made to this character, not even Greninja got to have such a nice treatment. This feels like watching a politician trying to convince the population to approve a degrading law in the sense that every argument is either a flat out lie, bending a fact to pretend it means something else, or just nitpicking small details while purposefully and maliciously ignoring the whole picture since exposing the whole argument would prove the opposite. You know the nitpick is extreme when the wrestler character behaving like a wrestler is wrong because.... reasons (funny how I dont see kneejerk conspiracy theories over charizard not really feeling like a flying type since it wasnt "competing" with another choice or how this bubble complaints happen just after the anime does justice to Incineroar too, even though all of Ash's team is well treated currently, Lycanrok included).

Then you go as far even try to bring up uniqueness again with the FE characters as an excuse even though Incineroar (and most other pokemon) are considerably (and objectively) more unique and bring a lot to the table each (all except Pichu). None of your rationalization makes sense nor reflects reality because you're just unfairly angry that a character you arbitrarily chose to dislike because it wasnt another character made it in instead and thus you force your irrational thought as fact to feel validated. You refuse to admit to any positive in the moveset to the point where reality itself is bent to fit in a context that literally doesn't exist outside fallacy.
An also cool character like Lycanrok being used as an excuse to character flamewars appals me, some of this headcannon that may as well be trolling since you picked an innocent thread specifically of another pokemon probably thinking you'd get a knee-jerk reaction that wouldnt disagree with the bs even though supporting a cool character in any way means hating another one, (just like chrom supporters shouldnt hate robin, specially when both robin and incineroar were objectively unique aditions that share being quite loyal to their series move-wise)...

 

[Guynamednelson]

not even Greninja got to have such a nice treatment

Except Greninja has things like Hydro Pump and tongue smacking. If Greninja was like Incineroar then Hayabusa wouldn't be on the speculation table because he'd be redundant.

 

[Delzethin]

So the penultimate episode of the Alola anime aired earlier, and part of it involved one last battle between Ash and Kiawe.

Though only part of it was actually shown, as the episode went back and forth between various characters to show what they were planning on doing now that the League is finished, eventually cutting to the battle in media res.

But what we did get was a pretty cool scene where Ash and Kiawe both unleashed Z-Moves at the same time.

And it looked like a double KO at first...until Lycanroc hung on and stood back up one more time.

Remember how a high enough Affection stat in the games can grant the ability to survive attacks that'd have KOed otherwise? Makes a little more sense now how Ash's Lycanroc has damn near refused to fall post-character development, doesn't it?

And Alola bucked one more trend by having Ash's ace for the region not get upstaged by a Charizard!

Afterward, Olivia (who was officiating) congratulated both trainers on a close fight, encouraged Kiawe to keep following his dream of becoming a Kahuna, and encouraged Ash to seek out more opponents in other regions. There's a lot of great trainers all over the world, as she apparently put it. Based on how the next anime saga's having him go globetrotting, it seems he took the advice to heart.

Oh, and Magearna finally woke up.

Word on the street is the final episode's going to focus mainly on Lillie making a decision. We'll see how things wrap up, and what happens with Ash's team.

I've also been thinking about this idea recently. In particular, I think Incineroar's moveset may have originally been intended for Star Man from the NES game Pro Wrestling. Not only does Incineroar lack many of its unique qualities from its source materials, a lot of Incineroar's moves (such as his Alolan Whip, down smash, pummel, and side smash) look a lot like moves you can do in the NES game. Likewise, Star Man's signature move is his Flying Cross Chop, which Incineroar also has, despite the fact that Cross Chop has never been a move associated with the air in Pokemon). This would also explain why Incineroar struggles so much with mobility, despite the fact its speed isn't actually terrible. 60 speed isn't great, but it's nowhere near as slow as Smash makes it out to be. In Pro Wrestling NES however, the characters move extremely slow and much of the challenge is learning how to approach an opponent despite this speed, which would be much more logical to translate by making Star Man the slowest character in the game. It would also answer why Ultimate didn't have the retro revival that's been a tradition since Melee, one was planned but replaced by a more relevant character.

Of course, this could all be tin foil hat theories, but I still feel it's worth sharing.

I've had a similar theory, actually; I've been wondering if part of the moveset was originally designed for the Rhythm Wrestler. We know Rhythm Heaven got seriously considered for Smash 4, and while the big rumor pointed toward the Chorus Kids, I wouldn't be surprised if they wrote out concepts for multiple RH characters to gauge which they felt worked best. The moveset's bravado yet lack of underhanded tactics would make sense if part of it were originally for a face wrestler, and a timing-based side special would've been a natural fit for a character from a game all about rhythm and timing.

And yet, you make some interesting points too. Hm...is there a chance multiple scrapped wrestler concepts were Frankensteined together?

Either way, it's still just a crackpot theory for now. We'd need more evidence in its favor before taking it seriously.

It's kind of like Sakurai doesn't care about Pokemon. Besides Incineroar feeling more like its name should be moveset_wrestler:

• You can play as Japan and the West's preferred Belmonts and DQ Heroes, but they didn't make Piplup/Oshawott playable to extend this to unevolved water starters.
• Poke Balls: Didn't get the new mechanics ATs got and are now outnumbered by them. Mons that should've been Isabelle-tier obvious choices didn't get promoted. Fennekin is still there despite Kanto Vulpix making it redundant.
• Less stages and songs than Zelda, a franchise whose fans accuse of being underrepresented itself.

At ease. Accusing Sakurai of not caring about Pokémon is a bit hasty, don't you think? Especially since he's pretty good friends with Junichi Masuda, apparently.

I get it, it's really easy to start feeling betrayed. I know the sensation full well, the moments where it feels like damn near everyone has decided you don't matter. But we need to take a moment to see if that's actually what's going on. All lashing out from anxiety does is lead to things we later regret...and sometimes get held over our heads long afterward.

As someone who likes both Incineroar and Lycanrok, had both in my teams (Daylight and Dusk in the latter case) and would love both making in if it was possible: this post has some of the biggest objective lies and strawgrasping I've ever seen in this site, and I used to lurk a lot before making an account.

*"character specific abilities": literally its neutral-b is its signature move, not even mentioning its final smash,

* a "fighting type moveset" when half the specials are dark type and one is made up,

*"no heel tactics" when its full of wrestling moves, has revenge, and the taunts

*"no persona" when its the only fighter to pull taunts after every move

Everything from the reveal trailer to the victory screens oozes with details that makes it feel like everything was tailor made to this character, not even Greninja got to have such a nice treatment. This feels like watching a politician trying to convince the population to approve a degrading law in the sense that every argument is either a flat out lie, bending a fact to pretend it means something else, or just nitpicking small details while purposefully and maliciously ignoring the whole picture since exposing the whole argument would prove the opposite. You know the nitpick is extreme when the wrestler character behaving like a wrestler is wrong because.... reasons (funny how I dont see kneejerk conspiracy theories over charizard not really feeling like a flying type since it wasnt "competing" with another choice or how this bubble complaints happen just after the anime does justice to Incineroar too, even though all of Ash's team is well treated currently, Lycanrok included).

Then you go as far even try to bring up uniqueness again with the FE characters as an excuse even though Incineroar (and most other pokemon) are considerably (and objectively) more unique and bring a lot to the table each (all except Pichu). None of your rationalization makes sense nor reflects reality because you're just unfairly angry that a character you arbitrarily chose to dislike because it wasnt another character made it in instead and thus you force your irrational thought as fact to feel validated. You refuse to admit to any positive in the moveset to the point where reality itself is bent to fit in a context that literally doesn't exist outside fallacy.
An also cool character like Lycanrok being used as an excuse to character flamewars appals me, some of this headcannon that may as well be trolling since you picked an innocent thread specifically of another pokemon probably thinking you'd get a knee-jerk reaction that wouldnt disagree with the bs even though supporting a cool character in any way means hating another one, (just like chrom supporters shouldnt hate robin, specially when both robin and incineroar were objectively unique aditions that share being quite loyal to their series move-wise)...

Case in point about anxiety...

Look, I don't mean to start any flame wars. I'd hope no one else in here intends to, either. We may disagree on things--strongly, it seems--but I can't fault someone for supporting a character they genuinely like. My problem's always been more with the people who jump on board bandwagons to "win" and harass the "losers". Feels like an act of bad faith to seize the upper hand just so they can abuse it for their own amusement...but that's clearly not what you're doing.

I understand how you're feeling as well. More than you realize--you should've seen me try to defend Corrin's very existence back in the day. And I think the boards have become so toxic that it's made everyone defensive, near-constantly. Best we can do is try and keep things from blowing up...as difficult a task as it can be.

 

[Garteam]

Ehh... I don't think this is the most accurate depiction of how Japan reacted to Incineroar. Most of these don't even seem targeted toward Incineroar.

It's a pretty stark comparison to how people reacted on YouTube, like this guy.

I don't know if YouTube is the greatest source of how people sincerely care about a character. YouTube's culture tends to emphasize big dramatic reactions that will catch the eyes of people around you. Usually, these tend to be positive reactions. This is true in Japan as well, where Etika's strong following and he was known as "Guile-kun".

The Chans and Twitter, on the other hand, are much more anonymous and thusly there's less social pressure. That's not to say there isn't a degree of group think there (pretty sure group think is a near universal at this point, to some degree), but the lack of pressure tends to make people more likely to give their honest thoughts.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Accusing Sakurai of not caring about Pokémon is a bit hasty, don't you think?

Well, I guess if he truly didn't give a ****, the flying Chansey glitch on Saffron City wouldn't be deliberately readded to Ultimate, "Everyone is Here" wouldn't include the missing Pokemon, or if Pichu came back it wouldn't have the spiky-ear alt. But still, you gotta look at more than the number of fighters, and how it feels like he's given more love to Zelda despite its lack of a newcomer. Overhauled Link, character designs from a wider variety of games, Ganondorf now has sword smash attacks, it actually got a new stage...

 

[Cosmic77]

Well, I guess if he truly didn't give a ****, the flying Chansey glitch on Saffron City wouldn't be deliberately readded to Ultimate, "Everyone is Here" wouldn't include the missing Pokemon, or if Pichu came back it wouldn't have the spiky-ear alt. But still, you gotta look at more than the number of fighters, and how it feels like he's given more love to Zelda despite its lack of a newcomer. Overhauled Link, character designs from a wider variety of games, Ganondorf now has sword smash attacks, it actually got a new stage...

As a Zelda fan who's been clamoring for a unique newcomer since Melee, I think your opinion should be the other way around.

Most Zelda fans would be ecstatic if they got the attention Pokemon has gotten. Yeah, it might mean less stages, but take a look at how many characters are on the roster and how many new remixes we got in Ultimate. Pokemon has it pretty good TBH.

 

[Guynamednelson]

how many new remixes we got in Ultimate

Zelda and Pokemon have the same number.

how many characters are on the roster

Having no new Zelda newcomer is less apathetic than adding Incineroar over something with years of established popularity and/or that couldn't just have a fully human moveset.

 

[Cosmic77]

Zelda and Pokemon have the same number.

That's my point. Zelda doesn't really outshine Pokemon in any area in Ultimate. They're tied for the number of new remixes added, Pokemon easily has more Spirits than Zelda, Pokemon got three returning characters as opposed to one, all but one of the Pokemon characters are completely unigue whereas Zelda has three clones, Pokemon is the first franchise to crack 10 characters while Zelda is sitting pretty at 6, and Pokemon was the only one of the pair to receive a newcomer.

The only thing Zelda beats Pokemon in is stages, as every Zelda stage has returned and it got a new stage. I guess someone sharing your perspective could say the returning characters in the Zelda franchise got more love, but I feel like that was Sakurai's way of softening the blow of no new characters.

Having no new Zelda newcomer is less apathetic than adding Incineroar over something with years of established popularity and/or that couldn't just have a fully human moveset.

No offense, but it sounds like you're just being bitter about Incineroar, acting like it's addition wasn't Sakurai acknowledging the popularity of the Pokemon franchise.

Obviously Incineroar wasn't my first pick either, but I'm thankful for it regardless. I still think it's a fairly good choice for representing Alola, a region that would probably be worse off than Unova without it. It would have neither a character or a stage.

 

[Guynamednelson]

No offense, but it sounds like you're just being bitter about Incineroar, acting like it's addition wasn't Sakurai acknowledging the popularity of the Pokemon franchise.

Perhaps you're just being nice to Incineroar just because it's a Pokemon? That's just as bad as the people who hate it just because it's a tenth Pokemon.

I still think it's a fairly good choice for representing Alola, a region that would probably be worse off than Unova without it. It would have neither a character or a stage.

I don't. With Pichu and PT coming back, Mimikyu and Dusk Lycanroc being big faces from Alola, and Pikachu and PT being great characters even in the prerelease demo, it was the perfect time to remind Smash fans that Pokemon is not just about "badass" anthros. Also Unova does have a stage.

Thankfully, Nintendo does seem to be targeting specific niches with every DLC fighter...

 

[Crimson Helios]

I just saw episode 145 with English subs.

Spoiler

Apparently Sophacles is going to Hoenn. Assuming the next series is a continuation, do you think Ash will see Sophacles there as well as Serena?

 

[Cosmic77]

Lycanroc?

I guess everyone is dressing up for today.

 

[RandomAce]

Lycanroc?

View attachment 244076View attachment 244077

I guess everyone is dressing up for today.

That Dusk one is amazing, using a bone as a sword.

 

[Delzethin]

Lycanroc?

View attachment 244076View attachment 244077

I guess everyone is dressing up for today.

Where'd you find that? The Dusk one is brilliant.

 

[Cosmic77]

Where'd you find that? The Dusk one is brilliant.

An artist on Twitter made it. There's plenty more besides Lycanroc.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[LukeRNG]

Perhaps you're just being nice to Incineroar just because it's a Pokemon? That's just as bad as the people who hate it just because it's a tenth Pokemon.

I don't. With Pichu and PT coming back, Mimikyu and Dusk Lycanroc being big faces from Alola, and Pikachu and PT being great characters even in the prerelease demo, it was the perfect time to remind Smash fans that Pokemon is not just about "badass" anthros. Also Unova does have a stage.

Thankfully, Nintendo does seem to be targeting specific niches with every DLC fighter...

I've yet to see anyone use the word ''anthro'' for the pokemon reps in smash. Don't know where you got that from given that most of the pokemon characters are non-anthros (6 to 4).
I'm also in the belief that Sakurai may not have full liberties with every nintendo series (just speculation). After all, Pokemon is the #1 biggest media franchise in the world.
From what i've seen, many of the popular pokemon you talked about ended up being popular during the generation they came out on and then left behind for the new hot pokemon. Heck, even Greninja dropped in buzz after gen 7 began (even though it lasted a bit more thanks to Ash-Greninja).

I don't deny that many of them are still popular (heck we even have a dedicated month to Mimikyu), but we don't know who's really picking the pokemon at the end of the day. We do know that they will most likely go with a pokemon from the most recent Generation at the time of smash bros's release (and potentially dlc time as well). Maybe they don't want to struggle to make a moveset for the small pokemon, hence why they get glanced over with Squirtle being the only exception.

And another thing to consider is this: if Sakurai could choose whatever pokemon he wanted without limiting himself to the most recent games, Pokemon would arguably the hardest franchise to pick a character, with over 700 creatures to choose from; none of which are the ''protagonist'' of their respective games. The starters & Legendaries are the closest we get to that position, but still doesn't look easy to pick from. Every pokemon is someone's favorite.

While I can 50% agree with Incineroar not really representig his character perfectly, from my experience Incineroar was built both in character & design to act like a wrestler and the moveset it has just fits. The anime further emphasizes that personality.
Would I had picked someone else? Absolutely. But am I dissapointed? Tbh, I've stopped caring about who gets into smash at this point. If i like their moveset then i'll like the character. Smash made me like Incineroar a lot more than I did beforehand.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Don't know where you got that from given that most of the pokemon characters are non-anthros (6 to 4).

You are right that only are truly anthromorphic, but notice how one was the only Pokemon newcomer in the last Smash and another was the only one in this one?

Maybe they don't want to struggle to make a moveset for the small pokemon

They didn't struggle to make a moveset for a plant in a pot or a robot that can't do anything IRL except pick things up slowly.

If i like their moveset then i'll like the character.

Now this, I can agree on. Except I tend to not be a grappler player in fighting games, except for Clark in KoF, which is among the reasons why I hope for a different Gen 7 rep.

 

[Crimson Helios]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TBmA7kS3M8k

Well damn, so much for hoping this wasn't a reboot. Well, I suppose this is farewell, Incineroar. You will be missed.

 

[Cosmic77]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TBmA7kS3M8k

Well damn, so much for hoping this wasn't a reboot. Well, I suppose this is farewell, Incineroar. You will be missed.

It's not a reboot if it references other parts of the previous anime. Seems like Ash will remember when he got Pikachu when he gets back to Kanto, which makes me think they're trying to recap for newer viewers.

I don't know where they're going with this, but the continuity is still there.

 

[Staarih]

I'm really curious and excited to see where the anime will move onto next - at the same time it's surreal to see the Sun/Moon seasons come to an end as they were was super enjoyable. I, too, am getting flashback vibes from this trailer rather than reboot personally: would be wise to recap how Ash and Pikachu met, and the lonely Pichu looks to be Ash's Pikachu so backstory for the electric rat is also more than welcome. Only a few weeks and we'll be wiser.

 

[Delzethin]

It's not a reboot if it references other parts of the previous anime. Seems like Ash will remember when he got Pikachu when he gets back to Kanto, which makes me think they're trying to recap for newer viewers.

I don't know where they're going with this, but the continuity is still there.

Yeah, it seems like the episode's premise is that Go is starting out as a trainer and Ash happens to be at the lab that day, which prompts Ash and Pikachu to remember what it was like for them, complete with flashbacks. It's a way of catching new/younger fans up on Ash's origin story while also introducing the new co-lead and establishing Ash as the more experienced of the duo, I suppose.

Not sure why so many people are expecting a reboot by default. Was it just because the idea made the rounds in fan communities a few months ago? Or because too many people assumed Ash winning one League would mean his story was over?

 

[Guynamednelson]

Not sure why so many people are expecting a reboot by default. Was it just because the idea made the rounds in fan communities a few months ago? Or because too many people assumed Ash winning one League would mean his story was over?

They simply wanted it.

Also, I forgot to mention earlier:

if Sakurai could choose whatever pokemon he wanted without limiting himself to the most recent games, Pokemon would arguably the hardest franchise to pick a character, with over 700 creatures to choose from;

I don't think Sakurai would actually get over 800 options to choose from if he still chose Pokemon other than whatever new starter has an obvious fighter archetype. Rather, he would stick around the top 100-200 range, only making exceptions if he's making another Trainer and it makes sense for a less popular Pokemon to be on their team (IE: Ivysaur.)

 

[Cosmic77]

I'm pretty neutral about the anime right now. I'm definitely curious to see where they go with this, but I'm also worried that Galar won't receive the most attention like it should.

Also, I'm still on the fence about Gao and the girl whose name slipped my mind. Even when animated, Gao straight-up looks like a girl, and the professor's daughter has a very...unique hairstyle, even by Pokemon's standards. I'm hoping their personalities compensate for the designs.

Not sure why so many people are expecting a reboot by default. Was it just because the idea made the rounds in fan communities a few months ago? Or because too many people assumed Ash winning one League would mean his story was over?

The people who haven't kept up with the anime at all over the past decade believe that Ash should be replaced because of his occasional clueless and clumsy characteristics. If not that, then seeing him get rebooted would be the next best thing.

Even after XY and SuMo, those people still believe Ash is a dopey trainer who can't be taken seriously at any point in the anime, therefore we need to either replace him or start from scratch and make him serious like Red.

 

[Crimson Helios]

It's not a reboot if it references other parts of the previous anime. Seems like Ash will remember when he got Pikachu when he gets back to Kanto, which makes me think they're trying to recap for newer viewers.

I don't know where they're going with this, but the continuity is still there.

Honestly, I don't know. Ash seemed way too excited to see all 3 Kanto starters. Now, I would get if that was the 1st time he encountered them, but not only has he encountered all 3 of them already (and he's even seen a whole group of them and their evolutions), he owns all 3, and fully evolved one of them into the complete monster he is today. Again, I don't know. That just seems way too suspicious for me. Then again, I'm looking from my perspective, not Ash's. And when I've already encountered them before, especially groups, the excitement dies down. Maybe regardless of how many times he sees them, Ash still feels the same excitement as the 1st time.

Oh, and let's not forget that May, one of his traveling companions, got 2 of them as well. Then there's Kukui with Venusaur. And need I mention Alain?

 

[Deleted member]

Lycanroc?

View attachment 244076View attachment 244077

I guess everyone is dressing up for today.

Awesome that's great.

Really cool.

 

[Delzethin]

And with that, the Alola anime has come to an end. Quite a bit of stuff happened toward tying up loose ends, so it's probably best that I just link to Serebii's visual summary of it.

Far as what's happening with Ash's team...

Spoiler

Turns out none are coming back home with Ash, other than Pikachu like usual. They've all been taken in by Kukui (except Naganadel, who went back to its home dimension last episode). It's about as neutral a situation as we could've had--least Lycanroc isn't being left in limbo offscreen, and we could see a reunion if/when Ash and Go end up visiting Alola.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

And for an added layer of "huh, how about that", the final scene revealed that Burnet is pregnant. Kind of fitting, how her and Kukui spent the saga basically as Ash's foster parents and now they're going to be parents for real.

Wonder if they also have a kid in the games now? Though I suppose that depends on how what continuity Sword & Shield have with the rest of the series.

What are everyone's thoughts on the Alola saga as a whole? For all the controversy over the art style at first, it ended up carving out an identity for itself. The whole "Ash finally won a League" thing certainly helped with that.

 

[Cosmic77]

And with that, the Alola anime has come to an end. Quite a bit of stuff happened toward tying up loose ends, so it's probably best that I just link to Serebii's visual summary of it.

Far as what's happening with Ash's team...

Spoiler

Turns out none are coming back home with Ash, other than Pikachu like usual. They've all been taken in by Kukui (except Naganadel, who went back to its home dimension last episode). It's about as neutral a situation as we could've had--least Lycanroc isn't being left in limbo offscreen, and we could see a reunion if/when Ash and Go end up visiting Alola.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

And for an added layer of "huh, how about that", the final scene revealed that Burnet is pregnant. Kind of fitting, how her and Kukui spent the saga basically as Ash's foster parents and now they're going to be parents for real.

Wonder if they also have a kid in the games now? Though I suppose that depends on how what continuity Sword & Shield have with the rest of the series.

What are everyone's thoughts on the Alola saga as a whole? For all the controversy over the art style at first, it ended up carving out an identity for itself. The whole "Ash finally won a League" thing certainly helped with that.

Spoiler

A little bummed that Ash's team is left with Kukui, but I guess they'll be happier there. Would've liked the chance to see them interact with the rest of Ash's Pokemon at Oak's lab, but there was never a guarantee that would happen anyway.

Sun and Moon was a good anime. A lot of people refused to give it a chance due to the art style, but if they continued to watch, they would've seen that it ended up being a lot better than they initially thought. I think it was easily the funniest series to date, even if the facial expressions were a little over-the-top sometimes. And of course, it was the anime where Ash finally became a Champion, so of course that's gonna help it stick out from the rest. The league itself was actually a huge improvement from previous leagues, even XY's where Ash only got to battle two trainers.

It wasn't perfect, and there are plenty of things I didn't like, but for what it was, Sun and Moon deserves to be remembered.

 

[Garteam]

I'm gonna miss Alola. I know it wasn't everyone's cup of tea, but I really liked some of the creative decisions it made. Going for a slice of life approach instead of the cross-country adventure that has defined the series was very fun, and I honestly think giving Ash a smaller team for most of the series this time around was actually a better choice.

It was really cool to see Rowlet, Incineroar, and Lycanroc get full character archs with a definitive beginning and end. It really made those Pokemon feel alive. Normally, an in-depth arch was usually reserved for one of Ash's Pokemon (Charizard in Johto/Kanto, Sceptile in Hoenn, Infernape in Sinnoh, and Greninja in Kalos), so dropping this trend to have a more well-rounded team is definitely preferable.

It is kinda weird that Incineroar got literally no battles after its evolution though. Even May's Blaziken and Ash's Quilava, which evolved in the 2nd last episode of Hoenn and two regions AFTER Cyndaquil was a regular member of Ash's team respectively, got a big battle or two to show off their new forms.

 

[Deleted member]

It is and will always be my favourite region. With some of my favourite Pokemon that Alola. Like how Ash's team all got arcs.

And it wasn't necessarily the main starter that got all the focus which I like.

Haven't seen the newer episodes I'll post my thoughts when I can.

 

[Staarih]

Spoiler: Sword/Shield

So apparently the Galar Dex is out and it looks like our rock wolves didn’t make the cut? Unless I’m totally missing it. A shame really, not sure how final this is though (but loving the Gen 5 representation).

 

[Delzethin]

Spoiler: Sword/Shield

So apparently the Galar Dex is out and it looks like our rock wolves didn’t make the cut? Unless I’m totally missing it. A shame really, not sure how final this is though (but loving the Gen 5 representation).

As it turns out...

Spoiler

Approximately 60% of 'mons from older gens didn't make it. Lycanroc included. That...was a lot more than I expected. And it turns out it wasn't just us--a lot of big names aren't in Galar. Even Lycanroc's counterparts weren't all spared, because Zoroark didn't make it.

It's a weird feeling. On one hand, it sucks to be completely absent for a least a year. On the other, the fact that many popular 'mons didn't make the cut means it can't really be used to discredit Lycanroc as unimportant. And we have official word that everyone will show up in future games, so I imagine we'll be back at some point before Gen 8 is done.

Not that it's very reassuring at the moment, but...

 

[Garteam]

Spoiler: Sword/Shield

So apparently the Galar Dex is out and it looks like our rock wolves didn’t make the cut? Unless I’m totally missing it. A shame really, not sure how final this is though (but loving the Gen 5 representation).

Spoiler

66% of the Dex was cut. That's honestly insane. Even the most conservative of estimates didn't think it would be this bad.
Along with our boy Lycanroc, we lost...
-Every starter that's not Charizard (Including the Bulbasaur and Squirtle lines)
-Every legendary (including Mewtwo)
-Every Fossil
-Every Regional bird that's not Noctowl and Unfezant
-Every pseudo-legendary that's not Tyranitar, Goodra, and Kommo-o
-Pokemon with previously perfect attendance records like the Abra, Zubat, Geodude, and Magnemite lines
-Iconic Gen 1 Pokemon like Starmie, Primeape, Marowak, and Jigglypuff
-Fan favourites like Heracross, Volcarona, Gliscor, and Skarmory

Call me a pessimist, but this is pretty inexcusable. I don't think it's too much to ask that a 2019 Triple AAA console game have more Pokemon than its 2007 outing on the DS.

 

[Cosmic77]

Spoiler

Yeah, I'm pretty bummed too. I had hopes for the Dex expanding, but it seems like that won't be happening. Regardless, I feel like I'm able to swallow this news easier than others. I planned on using new Pokemon from Gen VIII for my team anyway. Plus, the new Pokemon have been pretty stellar all things considered.

That being said, and I know no one probably wants me to say this, but...

Spoiler

If Lycanroc isn't fighter #5, I consider its chances to be dead. Post-pass should be able to account for SwSh, and if Lycanroc isn't even in that game, then I have a hard time seeing a route for it.

Until we get something major related to Lycanroc, I'm shelving it alongside Zoroark until the remakes come out, however many years that may take.