Day, Night, and Dusk - Lycanroc for Smash Bros. Ultimate

Cosmic77

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A leak that gained some traction is claiming Lycanroc is in (click on the link and look to the left of the Detective Pikachu picture.)

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/411314308773969930/633959956974141460/1571102413947.png

There's also a bit of info on my Gen 8 favs, Zacian and Zamazenta. If you don't feel like scouring through the jumble of information to find it, I just made a post in their support thread with pics of the relevant information. I'm feeling pretty good about their chances of making it in Smash now.

...Assuming this is all real. I shouldn't get ahead of myself.
 

Delzethin

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A leak that gained some traction is claiming Lycanroc is in (click on the link and look to the left of the Detective Pikachu picture.)

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/411314308773969930/633959956974141460/1571102413947.png

There's also a bit of info on my Gen 8 favs, Zacian and Zamazenta. If you don't feel like scouring through the jumble of information to find it, I just made a post in their support thread with pics of the relevant information. I'm feeling pretty good about their chances of making it in Smash now.

...Assuming this is all real. I shouldn't get ahead of myself.
Just for clarity, this is a possible Sword & Shield leak, not anything Smash-related. Among the many things it claims is that Lycanroc is present in Galar.

Overall, this one feels worth keeping an eye on, but we need more information before it can be considered truly trustworthy. I'm on the fence with this one. How about you guys?
 

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Just for clarity, this is a possible Sword & Shield leak, not anything Smash-related. Among the many things it claims is that Lycanroc is present in Galar.

Overall, this one feels worth keeping an eye on, but we need more information before it can be considered truly trustworthy. I'm on the fence with this one. How about you guys?
I'm a bit skeptical. Big, tell-all leaks tend to usually be false. Even the Affleck leak, which leaked a lot, is relatively light on content compared to this one.

That being said, it is something to talk about, and I like a lot of its ideas. It also seems relatively grounded and believable, so there is a chance it could be real. Plus, it predicted Charizard as the only Kanto Starter Gigantimax
 
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Cosmic77

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That being said, it is something to talk about, and I like a lot of its ideas. It also seems relatively grounded and believable, so there is a chance it could be real. Plus, it predicted Charizard as the only Kanto Starter Gigantimax
It also predicted a shorter tutorial and the first battle with Hop featuring two Pokemon, which lines up with what reviews have been saying. The only difference is that some people are saying the second Pokemon is Wooloo, while the leaker says it's the first evolution of Corviknight. It's possible this could differ depending on which version you choose or what starter you pick.
 
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False Sense

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Just for clarity, this is a possible Sword & Shield leak, not anything Smash-related. Among the many things it claims is that Lycanroc is present in Galar.

Overall, this one feels worth keeping an eye on, but we need more information before it can be considered truly trustworthy. I'm on the fence with this one. How about you guys?
It says Zoroark is back so I'm gonna believe it's true.
But it says Serperior and Primarina are gone so I'm gonna believe it's fake. :happysheep:



As for actual legitimacy, impossible to tell until further confirmation.
 

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Possible starter leak. Probably fake, but still kinda cool looking.
I want Grookey's evolution to look like this, not because I'm picking it (I want to go with Scorbunny) but because less people would be on the grass starter bandwagon under the belief most of his moves would just make him a green, gimmicky version of Donkey Kong.
 
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False Sense

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Possible starter leak. Probably fake, but still kinda cool looking.
AAHHHHHH Sobble's evo is so cute! And he gets his own little coat and magnifying glass, it's adorable! :estatic:

Not so fond of the other two, though, nor am I convinced this is even real. Still, very cute Sobble idea.
 

Kremling Man

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The English anime of Pokemon Sun and Moon is about to start on the Pokemon League arc I have avoided spoilers. But I'm excited rooting for Ash, Pikachu, Lycanroc, Torracat, and Rowlet. Hope they do well.

A month till Pokemkb Sword and Shield I'm excited not getting it but am excited Sobble would have been my choice. The Wild are, new Pokemon, and Dynamax, and Raid Battles plus the Galarian forms really sold me on the games. Hope everyone enjoys them. Kind of nice were going in not knowing everything.
 
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Cosmic77

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The last battle of the league.

Ash beats Kukui, meaning there's no way you can argue he's not the Champion. Kinda funny how the derpiest version of Ash was the one who ended up curbstomping everyone.

I don't think this league will get the appreciate it deserves, but I think it was handled better the Kalos League. People always praise that league for being good, but I feel like they forget that Ash kept winning off-screen all the way until the semifinals. Even if they were well-written, we only got to see him battle two other people, whereas this league let him battle 5 on top of a battle royale.

The Kalos League was okay, but Ash-Greninja and him almost winning didn't carry it as far as people act like it did.
 

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The last battle of the league.

Ash beats Kukui, meaning there's no way you can argue he's not the Champion. Kinda funny how the derpiest version of Ash was the one who ended up curbstomping everyone.

I don't think this league will get the appreciate it deserves, but I think it was handled better the Kalos League. People always praise that league for being good, but I feel like they forget that Ash kept winning off-screen all the way until the semifinals. Even if they were well-written, we only got to see him battle two other people, whereas this league let him battle 5 on top of a battle royale.

The Kalos League was okay, but Ash-Greninja and him almost winning didn't carry it as far as people act like it did.
Not just that!

It ended with a DBZ-worthy clash of Z-Moves.


Talk about finishing in style, eh? And this was a post-League exhibition match with nothing more than bragging rights on the line!

(Also, check out who showed up in the flashback montage.)

Meanwhile, we have a preview for next week, the Alola saga's second-last episode. (Spoilers regarding the previous couple episodes, obviously)


Looks like Ash and Kiawe are getting the battle they didn't get to have in the League, with Kiawe using his Charizard and Ash going with...who else?



Though I wonder how they're going to handle this.

I mean, Ash just won the Alola League, then beat his mentor for the region and won against a local deity in a straight fight in one fell swoop. Losing to the guy who got 3rd in the League would feel kind of cheap from a narrative standpoint unless it was handled very carefully, even if it spurred him to travel again. Or perhaps he wins handily against Kiawe, realizes he's better than everyone else he knows in Alola now, and that's what makes him decide to start globetrotting.

Also, it looks like Magearna's finally going to wake up.
 
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Cosmic77

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Not just that!

It ended with a DBZ-worthy clash of Z-Moves.


Talk about finishing in style, eh? And this was a post-League exhibition match with nothing more than bragging rights on the line!

(Also, check out who showed up in the flashback montage.)

Meanwhile, we have a preview for next week, the Alola saga's second-last episode. (Spoilers regarding the previous couple episodes, obviously)


Looks like Ash and Kiawe are getting the battle they didn't get to have in the League, with Kiawe using his Charizard and Ash going with...who else?



Though I wonder how they're going to handle this.

I mean, Ash just won the Alola League, then beat his mentor for the region and won against a local deity in a straight fight in one fell swoop. Losing to the guy who got 3rd in the League would feel kind of cheap from a narrative standpoint unless it was handled very carefully, even if it spurred him to travel again. Or perhaps he wins handily against Kiawe, realizes he's better than everyone else he knows in Alola now, and that's what makes him decide to start globetrotting.

Also, it looks like Magearna's finally going to wake up.
If I had to take a guess, Olivia was impressed by his performance in the league and is offering Kiawe a position as her possible successor as their island's future Kahuna. I doubt the battle between Charizard and Lycanroc will mean much. Alder lost to Trip in BW and he was still Champion (he fell asleep, making the victory seem very unofficial, but still).

Based off the preview, you can make out bits and pieces of what goals Ash's friends might have settled on.

Lana - spending more time with her sisters.
Kiawe - getting even stronger so he can bring honor to Akkala.
Lillie - helping Gladion find their father.
Sophocles - ...Okay, I honestly don't know. Maybe something with inventions?
Mallow - doubling down on her dream of managing a restaurant of her own.

I also don't think Ash is leaving his Pokemon behind, unless all of them stay with Kukui (though that would be pretty redundant, seeing how that's no different from leaving them at Oak's with his older Pokemon).
 
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False Sense

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Looks like Ash and Kiawe are getting the battle they didn't get to have in the League, with Kiawe using his Charizard and Ash going with...who else?

So, like, that Charizard's just dead from being bitten by a Rock-type, right? :p
 

Kremling Man

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I wonder if any of the upcoming fighters pass characters will be first party. I'm hoping so but I wonder. I wouldn't mind if it's all third party.

Guess we'll see hopefully Lycanroc will be a part of that.
 

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I wonder if any of the upcoming fighters pass characters will be first party. I'm hoping so but I wonder. I wouldn't mind if it's all third party.

Guess we'll see hopefully Lycanroc will be a part of that.
Well, we only have one Pass character left. Beyond that we don't know what kind of setup they have planned, if any at all. In fact, based on how it was phrased in the addendum text in the original announcement...

Screenshots - More DLC Confirmed.png


...I'm leaning toward there being no second Pass at all, with every DLC fighter from #6 onward being their own separate thing.


Which brings me to something that's been on my mind: Might we still have a chance as Fighter #6 or #7 if it comes down to it? The announcement implied at least a couple post-Pass characters were already in development as of September, and If the first few post-Pass characters were chosen enough months back that Sword & Shield were still too far away to be an option...

But how far could uniqueness carry a character whose window of opportunity was fading fast? Or could the fact that Lycanroc has legitimately grown into one of the most recognized faces of Gen 7 be a factor at all if trying to decide who people would be willing to pay for? Popularity is unreliable and highly subjective, sure, but I do wonder if the "Would people know who this is?" factor might be in play if the DLC team was worried or lacked confidence.

It'd require a whole bunch of conditions to line up right and all, but maybe it's one scenario worth weighing. Gives us more to talk about, at least.
 
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Guynamednelson

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Which brings me to something that's been on my mind: Might we still have a chance as Fighter #6 or #7 if it comes down to it? The announcement implied at least a couple post-Pass characters were already in development as of September, and If the first few post-Pass characters were chosen enough months back that Sword & Shield were still too far away to be an option...

But how far could uniqueness carry a character whose window of opportunity was fading fast? Or could the fact that Lycanroc has legitimately grown into one of the most recognized faces of Gen 7 be a factor at all if trying to decide who people would be willing to pay for? Popularity is unreliable and highly subjective, sure, but I do wonder if the "Would people know who this is?" factor might be in play if the DLC team was worried or lacked confidence.

It'd require a whole bunch of conditions to line up right and all, but maybe it's one scenario worth weighing. Gives us more to talk about, at least.
One thing I pointed out in another thread is that when Smash had multiple Pokemon newcomers per game, they seemed to have targeted a different demographic with each:
  • Pikachu has cuteness and coolness factor, Jigglypuff is pure cuteness
  • Pichu is a baby, Mewtwo is a legendary
  • Pokemon Trainer appeals to Kanto nostalgia, Lucario is the new mascot. If Plusle and Minun really were in the works, they'd be more about the cuteness factor than either of these two.
So, do you think Lycanroc can appeal to a different demographic than Incineroar? One would be more about fanservice as opposed to Incineroar who's mainly about having a wrestler in Smash.
 

Cosmic77

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I'm not giving up on Lycanroc entirely. I never will. However, I do think we also need to be realistic with our chances if Lycanroc isn't Fighter #5.

There are plenty of extremely iconic/popular Pokemon who should be in Smash, but never got their day. Meowth, Blaziken, Zoroark - all very important Pokemon that probably would've given us some very unique movesets. I'm starting to feel like Lycanroc might fall in that category alongside the others mentioned.

The whole reason we're getting additional fighters is because the pass sold so well. That would mean that, at the absolute minimum, Fighter #6 was conceived in November 2018. By then, Sword and Shield would've been exactly one year away. Greninja was finalized in summer of 2012, which was well over a year before XY was released in October 2013. We also know from datamines that at the latest, Corrin began development the same month Fates was released in Japan (June 2015).

The way I see it, we've passed the point of SwSh being too far away. Now our primary argument is if a second Gen 7 Pokemon would be prioritized over a new one from Gen 8. If I'm being brutally honest, I'm not so sure. Our best bet is if Sakurai saw potential in Lycanroc specifically and decided to add him despite knowing Gen 7 being completely irrelevant by the time Lycanroc would be revealed. Doesn't help our case either when the only Pokemon added in Smash who weren't part of the current Gen were from Gen 1.

I'll acknowledge that it's an uphill battle for Lycanroc, more so than it's ever been before. I'm not calling it quits, but I'm letting my bias blind me either.
 
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Guynamednelson

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Our best bet is if Sakurai saw potential in Lycanroc specifically and decided to add him despite knowing Gen 7 being completely irrelevant by the time Lycanroc would be revealed.
Pre-existing popularity seems to be an important factor for DLC, as only PP and Corrin didn't really have any of it to go by. The plant definitely did have recognizability though, as Sakurai stated.
 
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Kremling Man

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I hear you and don 't worry I am not giving up on Lycanroc ether never have never will.

But yes indeed you guys are right it's really up in the air who the next characters will be there is no way to tell.

We'll have to wait and see but I'm still excited all the same.
 

Cosmic77

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Pre-existing popularity seems to be an important factor for DLC, as only PP and Corrin didn't really have any of it to go by. The plant definitely did have recognizability though, as Sakurai stated.
I'd actually argue pre-existing popularity has barely been seen in Ultimate's DLC. PP was virtually nonexistent; doubt anyone can argue with that. Joker and Terry might've had a few supporters, but they certainly weren't close to cracking the top 25 from what I saw. People wanted a Dragon Quest character, but no one could agree on a character, so Hero didn't technically get in by his own popularity either. Banjo is the only character who was clearly highly requested and had pre-existing popularity.

Honestly, if the team felt comfortable enough adding Joker and Terry, I don't think they'd be too concerned about a Gen 8 Pokemon. Popular or not, I feel like the odds of people recognizing a new Pokemon are greater than a majority of the DLC characters we already know.
 
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Joker and Terry might've had a few supporters, but they certainly weren't close to cracking the top 25 from what I saw.
I'm not talking just about Smash fan requests. Persona 5 was Atlus's biggest success, and Terry is one of SNK's most popular characters. If I was talking about fan requests I'd think Lycanroc is ****ed because of anthro/starter bias.
 
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Cosmic77

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I'm not talking just about Smash fan requests. Persona 5 was Atlus's biggest success, and Terry is one of SNK's most popular characters. If I was talking about fan requests I'd think Lycanroc is ****ed because of anthro bias.
Either way, Pokemon is the most profitable franchise in the world.

Rest assured, I don't think they're worried about people not buying a Pokemon character as DLC. They'd have to really go out of their way for it to become an actual issue. As long as the choice is reasonable, fans will probably get over it faster than you think.
 

Kremling Man

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Pokemon character would definetly sell well. Especially Lycanroc since it was such a popular Pokemon and Midday, Midnight and Dusk forms were all great and featured Pokemon in the games and anime.

So I'd say I'd do well.
 
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One thing I pointed out in another thread is that when Smash had multiple Pokemon newcomers per game, they seemed to have targeted a different demographic with each:
  • Pikachu has cuteness and coolness factor, Jigglypuff is pure cuteness
  • Pichu is a baby, Mewtwo is a legendary
  • Pokemon Trainer appeals to Kanto nostalgia, Lucario is the new mascot. If Plusle and Minun really were in the works, they'd be more about the cuteness factor than either of these two.
So, do you think Lycanroc can appeal to a different demographic than Incineroar? One would be more about fanservice as opposed to Incineroar who's mainly about having a wrestler in Smash.
I suppose it'd be a different demographic? From what I've seen, Incineroar ended up appealing more to non-Pokémon fans, so maybe there's something to a pick that'd lean more toward the dedicated fanbase? Though our biggest upside is in uniqueness, either way.

The whole reason we're getting additional fighters is because the pass sold so well. That would mean that, at the absolute minimum, Fighter #6 was conceived in November 2018. By then, Sword and Shield would've been exactly one year away. Greninja was finalized in summer of 2012, which was well over a year before XY was released in October 2013. We also know from datamines that at the latest, Corrin began development the same month Fates was released in Japan (June 2015).

The way I see it, we've passed the point of SwSh being too far away. Now our primary argument is if a second Gen 7 Pokemon would be prioritized over a new one from Gen 8. If I'm being brutally honest, I'm not so sure. Our best bet is if Sakurai saw potential in Lycanroc specifically and decided to add him despite knowing Gen 7 being completely irrelevant by the time Lycanroc would be revealed. Doesn't help our case either when the only Pokemon added in Smash who weren't part of the current Gen were from Gen 1.
Wait, hold up just a minute. If I remember right, Gen 6 was given a closer look--and Greninja was chosen--some time near X & Y's release, so that'd have been roughly around Summer 2013, not 2012. It was still more than a year before Smash 4's own release date, but actual development on Greninja seems to have started close to when Greninja's debut game finished its own development, if that makes any sense. Something similar even happened with Corrin (development as newcomer began around April-June 2015, FE Fates released in Japan in June).

There's a recurring theme of Sakurai not wanting to jump the gun on characters until their first games are close to done...which is why I'm wondering when they started preliminary talk for Season 2. We know they'd decided to go through with it by the end of July or so (since it was mentioned during the Banjo overview, which was apparently recorded soon after the Hero overview), but how much further back was the decision made, and when were the next few newcomers chosen? If it wasn't until August, then Gen 8's probably on the table starting with Fighter #6. But if they started locking newcomers in back in April or May, then Gen 8 would've still been risky to pull from for however many newcomers they picked out then and it'd be left waiting a little longer.

Timing is of the essence with this, and it hinges on details we've no way of knowing. Though we'd still need a "now or never" invite even beyond that, which further complicates things...
 

Cosmic77

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Wait, hold up just a minute. If I remember right, Gen 6 was given a closer look--and Greninja was chosen--some time near X & Y's release, so that'd have been roughly around Summer 2013, not 2012. It was still more than a year before Smash 4's own release date, but actual development on Greninja seems to have started close to when Greninja's debut game finished its own development, if that makes any sense. Something similar even happened with Corrin (development as newcomer began around April-June 2015, FE Fates released in Japan in June).
I can't find the discussion where Sakurai explains exactly when Greninja was chosen, but I do remember him saying that Greninja was decided upon before it even had an official name.

In other words, there's absolutely no way Greninja didn't have a name 2-5 months before XY released. Translators and merchandise should've had official names given to them much earlier than that. More than likely, Greninja was chosen in 2012 or winter 2013 at the latest.
 
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Incineroar ended up appealing more to non-Pokémon fans
They wouldn't know this when deciding the DLC fighters. I'm not sure if they even knew Incineroar was more about the wrestler moveset than fanservice.

They should, however, notice how several SSBU newcomers have been chosen for popularity rather than for being from the new installment in their series, and Pokemon is big enough for "pick whatever new starter has an obvious fighter archetype" to not be good enough.
 

Cosmic77

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I think Incineroar appealed to Pokemon fans, but not hardcore Smash fans.

From what I remember, Incineroar was fairly popular (maybe not as popular as Primarina) once SuMo released and people realized it wasn't a fighting type. Decidueye was actually the one who struggled, but its popularity among Smash fans made people think it was popular.
 

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I think Incineroar appealed to Pokemon fans
Most of Incineroar's playerbase plays him for the moveset, not the Pokemon. Combine this with how his moveset is 100% human, and Sakurai might as well have given us a Pro Wrestling rep instead.

You should also remember that "it looks like another Fire/Fighting" is not the only reason why people hoped for Incineroar to be fake.
 
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Delzethin

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Most of Incineroar's playerbase plays him for the moveset, not the Pokemon. Combine this with how his moveset is 100% human, and Sakurai might as well have given us a Pro Wrestling rep instead.
That's what feels so off about the moveset: It feels less like it was designed around the character and more like it was pre-built some time prior and then pasted on. There's nothing involving any character-specific abilities, no fire belt, no outright heel tactics, nothing hinting toward the persona just being an act, none of it. You got a Fire/Dark type whose moveset feels like that of a pure Fighting type, something any number of wrestler characters could've also done.

And when there were so many other options from Gen 7 that, arguably, had the potential to do some very unique things, no wonder it still feels like such a hollow decision. It feels like in this case, one fandom was used in order to appeal to a completely different one, as if they didn't matter and were no more than a tool to be exploited and then cast aside once they were no longer convenient. Which just so happened to play right into the hands of some...not-so-pleasant facets of the Smash community.

But the strangest part is how much of an anomaly it is. We've seen several cases where characters were chosen specifically for uniqueness, for what new things they could bring. Ike got the inside track because he could be a cross between a sword user and a heavyweight when Smash didn't have many of the former yet, then his moveset pulled a lot of moves and animations straight from his game. Robin got the all clear thanks to being a spellsword with a hybrid arsenal no one else could match, all while using a weapon durability mechanic straight out of Fire Emblem. Even recently, Sakurai has outright said the reason Piranha Plant got a chance was how it can do things that literally no other fighter is capable of, and that's on top of all the moves that are directly inspired by different subspecies across various Mario games! So to have a character in the midst of all that be chosen seemingly just to pay lip service to an idea that isn't even part of its home series, and outright rejecting at least one other character with unique abilities in the process? It's enough to wonder if more went on behind the scenes than we've officially heard.

Not that it's directly pertinent to us, anyway. Our biggest problem was, and still is, timing...

I think Incineroar appealed to Pokemon fans, but not hardcore Smash fans.

From what I remember, Incineroar was fairly popular (maybe not as popular as Primarina) once SuMo released and people realized it wasn't a fighting type. Decidueye was actually the one who struggled, but its popularity among Smash fans made people think it was popular.
Actually, among the Western fanbase at least, Decidueye really is extremely popular. It's more subdued over in Japan, where apparently Primarina is a bigger deal, but there's definitely a following. Granted, a lot of speculators wrote Decidueye in for other reasons (usually the "we need a Grass starter to complete the set" kind) and then worked backwards and used the Western popularity to justify it, so some of it got masked. Incineroar went from very divisive when the art leaks happened, to still fairly divisive after the official reveal canned the Fire/Fighting fears, and there're still pretty mixed opinions even now from what I've seen.

Not that popularity is as crucial or objective as the speculation community treats it as half the time, anyway. I've seen it used too often to dismiss ideas and shun people just for going against the bandwagon.
 
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Kremling Man

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I get why they chose Incineroar popular choice for them that they wanted pushed in the games and anime. It's not a favourite everywhere but I get it.

Still had a chance for more unique ideas but hey it's in now.
 

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That's what feels so off about the moveset: It feels less like it was designed around the character and more like it was pre-built some time prior and then pasted on. There's nothing involving any character-specific abilities, no fire belt, no outright heel tactics, nothing hinting toward the persona just being an act, none of it. You got a Fire/Dark type whose moveset feels like that of a pure Fighting type, something any number of wrestler characters could've also done.

And when there were so many other options from Gen 7 that, arguably, had the potential to do some very unique things, no wonder it still feels like such a hollow decision. It feels like in this case, one fandom was used in order to appeal to a completely different one, as if they didn't matter and were no more than a tool to be exploited and then cast aside once they were no longer convenient. Which just so happened to play right into the hands of some...not-so-pleasant facets of the Smash community.

But the strangest part is how much of an anomaly it is. We've seen several cases where characters were chosen specifically for uniqueness, for what new things they could bring. Ike got the inside track because he could be a cross between a sword user and a heavyweight when Smash didn't have many of the former yet, then his moveset pulled a lot of moves and animations straight from his game. Robin got the all clear thanks to being a spellsword with a hybrid arsenal no one else could match, all while using a weapon durability mechanic straight out of Fire Emblem. Even recently, Sakurai has outright said the reason Piranha Plant got a chance was how it can do things that literally no other fighter is capable of, and that's on top of all the moves that are directly inspired by different subspecies across various Mario games! So to have a character in the midst of all that be chosen seemingly just to pay lip service to an idea that isn't even part of its home series, and outright rejecting at least one other character with unique abilities in the process? It's enough to wonder if more went on behind the scenes than we've officially heard.
It's kind of like Sakurai doesn't care about Pokemon. Besides Incineroar feeling more like its name should be moveset_wrestler:
  • You can play as Japan and the West's preferred Belmonts and DQ Heroes, but they didn't make Piplup/Oshawott playable to extend this to unevolved water starters.
  • Poke Balls: Didn't get the new mechanics ATs got and are now outnumbered by them. Mons that should've been Isabelle-tier obvious choices didn't get promoted. Fennekin is still there despite Kanto Vulpix making it redundant.
  • Less stages and songs than Zelda, a franchise whose fans accuse of being underrepresented itself.
I'll at least give him credit for fixing up Pichu and PT.
 
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Cyborg Sun

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That's what feels so off about the moveset: It feels less like it was designed around the character and more like it was pre-built some time prior and then pasted on. There's nothing involving any character-specific abilities, no fire belt, no outright heel tactics, nothing hinting toward the persona just being an act, none of it. You got a Fire/Dark type whose moveset feels like that of a pure Fighting type, something any number of wrestler characters could've also done.

And when there were so many other options from Gen 7 that, arguably, had the potential to do some very unique things, no wonder it still feels like such a hollow decision. It feels like in this case, one fandom was used in order to appeal to a completely different one, as if they didn't matter and were no more than a tool to be exploited and then cast aside once they were no longer convenient. Which just so happened to play right into the hands of some...not-so-pleasant facets of the Smash community.

But the strangest part is how much of an anomaly it is. We've seen several cases where characters were chosen specifically for uniqueness, for what new things they could bring. Ike got the inside track because he could be a cross between a sword user and a heavyweight when Smash didn't have many of the former yet, then his moveset pulled a lot of moves and animations straight from his game. Robin got the all clear thanks to being a spellsword with a hybrid arsenal no one else could match, all while using a weapon durability mechanic straight out of Fire Emblem. Even recently, Sakurai has outright said the reason Piranha Plant got a chance was how it can do things that literally no other fighter is capable of, and that's on top of all the moves that are directly inspired by different subspecies across various Mario games! So to have a character in the midst of all that be chosen seemingly just to pay lip service to an idea that isn't even part of its home series, and outright rejecting at least one other character with unique abilities in the process? It's enough to wonder if more went on behind the scenes than we've officially heard.

Not that it's directly pertinent to us, anyway. Our biggest problem was, and still is, timing....
Ehhhhh... yeah, as much as I want to defend any and all characters that get put into the game (Call me a blind optimist, but every character's a "part of the family", you know? I love them all, no matter what.), even I will admit that Incineroar was an odd one, and there were a bunch of Pokemon that I would have liked over him. Like y'all have been saying, it just kinda feels like Sakurai was desperate for a pro wrestling character. Oh well, I usually just chalk that up to a lack of development resources (I mean, he was literally the last newcomer before DLC). Plus, he's a fun character to play, and his animations are also pretty amusing, so I still like him.

Also, there are plenty of characters I want in the game for completely arbitrary reasons (Like, I only really want Akuma so that I can use the Raging Demon in Smash), so hey, maybe I shouldn't be talking.
 
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Cosmic77

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Actually, among the Western fanbase at least, Decidueye really is extremely popular. It's more subdued over in Japan, where apparently Primarina is a bigger deal, but there's definitely a following. Granted, a lot of speculators wrote Decidueye in for other reasons (usually the "we need a Grass starter to complete the set" kind) and then worked backwards and used the Western popularity to justify it, so some of it got masked. Incineroar went from very divisive when the art leaks happened, to still fairly divisive after the official reveal canned the Fire/Fighting fears, and there're still pretty mixed opinions even now from what I've seen.

Not that popularity is as crucial or objective as the speculation community treats it as half the time, anyway. I've seen it used too often to dismiss ideas and shun people just for going against the bandwagon.
I guess we just remember things differently. When SuMo first came out, I remember Primarina being the most popular starter, with Decidueye being the least popular. Japan was almost the same, except Decidueye's lack of popularity was far more exaggerated. Once the game was out for a few months, Incineroar started gaining more popularity once people saw how useful it was. It wasn't until Smash speculation for Ultimate and it's inclusion in Pokken before Decidueye started being perceived as the most popular.

Even though it was chosen long before any of this would've mattered, sometimes this thread can downplay Incineroar's impact with the fans and the series as a whole. It really wasn't as confusing of a pick as you think, especially since we know Game Freak had always planned on promoting it more than the others. That's why I highly doubt the wrestler moveset is the biggest reason we have an anthro bara tiger in Smash, despite what Sakurai might claim.

It's kind of like Sakurai doesn't care about Pokemon. Besides Incineroar feeling more like its name should be moveset_wrestler:
  • You can play as Japan and the West's preferred Belmonts and DQ Heroes, but they didn't make Piplup/Oshawott playable to extend this to unevolved water starters.
  • Poke Balls: Didn't get the new mechanics ATs got and are now outnumbered by them. Mons that should've been Isabelle-tier obvious choices didn't get promoted. Fennekin is still there despite Kanto Vulpix making it redundant.
  • Less stages and songs than Zelda, a franchise whose fans accuse of being underrepresented itself.
I'll at least give him credit for fixing up Pichu and PT.
C'mon, you know it's a bit of an exaggeration to say Sakurai didn't care about Pokemon. The fact that the Pokemon franchise has a special AT item just for itself whereas every other franchise has to share a generic item should be a testament to him caring.

A Gen VII rep wasn't essential. He could of easily skipped out on a new Pokemon, but instead one of the six unique newcomers on the base roster ended up being Incineroar. Zelda and Kirby got nothing again, and Metroid and DK were finally thrown a bone after years of neglect from both inside and outside of Smash. Pokemon has it pretty good.
 

Guynamednelson

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sometimes this thread can downplay Incineroar's impact with the fans and the series as a whole
It would help if Dusk Incineroar was a thing, or if Incineroar got its own song before SM released, or if Incineroar actually was one of Japan's top 10 favorite Alola Pokemon, or it didn't take so goddamn long for Ash to actually get an Incineroar.
Zelda and Kirby got nothing again
Either way, still no fan favorite newcomer.
and Metroid and DK were finally thrown a bone after years of neglect from both inside and outside of Smash.
Yeah, they actually got fanservice with their newcomers.
 
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RandomAce

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I didn’t get any messages that the thread was still going, so I thought it was dead for a while but turns out, completely the opposite. A lot to talk about and chime in.

That's what feels so off about the moveset: It feels less like it was designed around the character and more like it was pre-built some time prior and then pasted on. There's nothing involving any character-specific abilities, no fire belt, no outright heel tactics, nothing hinting toward the persona just being an act, none of it. You got a Fire/Dark type whose moveset feels like that of a pure Fighting type, something any number of wrestler characters could've also done.

And when there were so many other options from Gen 7 that, arguably, had the potential to do some very unique things, no wonder it still feels like such a hollow decision. It feels like in this case, one fandom was used in order to appeal to a completely different one, as if they didn't matter and were no more than a tool to be exploited and then cast aside once they were no longer convenient. Which just so happened to play right into the hands of some...not-so-pleasant facets of the Smash community.

But the strangest part is how much of an anomaly it is. We've seen several cases where characters were chosen specifically for uniqueness, for what new things they could bring. Ike got the inside track because he could be a cross between a sword user and a heavyweight when Smash didn't have many of the former yet, then his moveset pulled a lot of moves and animations straight from his game. Robin got the all clear thanks to being a spellsword with a hybrid arsenal no one else could match, all while using a weapon durability mechanic straight out of Fire Emblem. Even recently, Sakurai has outright said the reason Piranha Plant got a chance was how it can do things that literally no other fighter is capable of, and that's on top of all the moves that are directly inspired by different subspecies across various Mario games! So to have a character in the midst of all that be chosen seemingly just to pay lip service to an idea that isn't even part of its home series, and outright rejecting at least one other character with unique abilities in the process? It's enough to wonder if more went on behind the scenes than we've officially heard.

Not that it's directly pertinent to us, anyway. Our biggest problem was, and still is, timing...


Actually, among the Western fanbase at least, Decidueye really is extremely popular. It's more subdued over in Japan, where apparently Primarina is a bigger deal, but there's definitely a following. Granted, a lot of speculators wrote Decidueye in for other reasons (usually the "we need a Grass starter to complete the set" kind) and then worked backwards and used the Western popularity to justify it, so some of it got masked. Incineroar went from very divisive when the art leaks happened, to still fairly divisive after the official reveal canned the Fire/Fighting fears, and there're still pretty mixed opinions even now from what I've seen.

Not that popularity is as crucial or objective as the speculation community treats it as half the time, anyway. I've seen it used too often to dismiss ideas and shun people just for going against the bandwagon.
One of the reasons why I was mainly turned off by Incineroar is because of his move set, because I didn’t expect to like it.

When Sakurai’s book revealed that he was considering between Decidueye and Incineroar, I felt a major blow. I know I gave a lot of shade to Decidueye before, but I would rather have been slapped in the face because Decidueye would’ve been a character I would’ve really liked. Even Sakurai knew that Decidueye had a lot of potential, but in the end wanted to have a wrestler in Smash.

I know it is Sakurai’s choice, but looking at Incineroar’s moveset, it’s more based on wrestler’s concepts than Incineroar’s portrayals other than Incineroar also being a wrestler. Only moves I can really see potray some of the aspects from the games are Neutral Special, Revenge, his Final Smash, and his flashy post-attack animations (although it is up in the air whether it is based on Incineroar or the stereotype where wrestlers do like to show off).

But that’s just me.

Well, we only have one Pass character left. Beyond that we don't know what kind of setup they have planned, if any at all. In fact, based on how it was phrased in the addendum text in the original announcement...

View attachment 243089

...I'm leaning toward there being no second Pass at all, with every DLC fighter from #6 onward being their own separate thing.


Which brings me to something that's been on my mind: Might we still have a chance as Fighter #6 or #7 if it comes down to it? The announcement implied at least a couple post-Pass characters were already in development as of September, and If the first few post-Pass characters were chosen enough months back that Sword & Shield were still too far away to be an option...

But how far could uniqueness carry a character whose window of opportunity was fading fast? Or could the fact that Lycanroc has legitimately grown into one of the most recognized faces of Gen 7 be a factor at all if trying to decide who people would be willing to pay for? Popularity is unreliable and highly subjective, sure, but I do wonder if the "Would people know who this is?" factor might be in play if the DLC team was worried or lacked confidence.

It'd require a whole bunch of conditions to line up right and all, but maybe it's one scenario worth weighing. Gives us more to talk about, at least.
In my opinion, I’m not really going to support it as much after the Fighter Pass.

While I do believe Gen 8 was too late to be considered for the Fighter Pass, I do think Gen 8 is in the ripe time for any DLC characters that will be released later into 2020. I do think Lycanroc would be a good sell, considering Pokémon is huge and Lycanroc is shaping up to be one of Game Freak’s top Pokémon, but it’s a matter of priority.

Speaking of which, I could see Lycanroc showing up as the last fighter sharing a trailer with Terry Bogard. The thematic similarities are too good to pass up similar to how Ken and Incineroar shared a trailer for being “fiery”.
 

Guynamednelson

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but it’s a matter of priority.
Indeed, there are a few questions to ask with Pokemon and Nintendo picking even the post-FP DLC:
  1. Is some form of established popularity important for another Pokemon, like with the majority of Smash's DLC fighters?
  2. Would the idea of them wanting to attract new demographics influence them to choose something unlike Greninja and Incineroar?
  3. With Pokemon now having many fans who only play mobile games that don't get the newest batch of Pokemon for a while, would they cater to them? (This might be an obstacle for Lycanroc, since Go won't get Alola for at least a couple more years)
  4. As I have said earlier, the Poke Ball selection includes mons that should've been just as obvious of a choice to promote as Isabelle was. Are they aware of this?
 
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