Day, Night, and Dusk - Lycanroc for Smash Bros. Ultimate

[Garteam]

Potential major, major anime leak:

Spoiler

In the corner photo of this magazine, Ash can be seen holding a trophy with Kukui and the Kahunas at what looks to be an awards ceremony.

Hype responsibly and all that, but it really does seem like Ash's gonna win the league. With Lycanroc in the champion match!

 

[Cosmic77]

Potential major, major anime leak:

Spoiler

In the corner photo of this magazine, Ash can be seen holding a trophy with Kukui and the Kahunas at what looks to be an awards ceremony.

Hype responsibly and all that, but it really does seem like Ash's gonna win the league. With Lycanroc in the champion match!

Someone posted an HD image, and it seems like it's just Pikachu.

Spoiler

Not that I think Ash is gonna lose. The fact that Ash is standing next to Masked Royal with Gladion no where in sight is pretty telling.

 

[Cosmic77]

Sorry for the double post, but this was accidentally put in as part of a preview. We have an official winner of the Alolan Pokemon League.

Spoiler

Spoiler: Real spoilers. Avoid if you don't want to spoil the outcome.

Lycanroc is the one who gets Ash his very first league win in anime history.

Honestly, this is probably the next best thing to getting Lycanroc in Smash. I doubt it'll ever fade away into obscurity now.

 

[RandomAce]

Spoiler: Real Anime Spoilers

Dusk Lycanroc being the one to clutch the Ash’s first ever league in it’s anime history... It really does mean a lot.

Really shows that Lycanroc isn’t a slouch on any front considering the climax of the league is solely on the Lycanrocs. Hoping that Dusk Lycanroc’s fated battle really does deliver on that victory.

 

[LukeRNG]

It's a real shame they didn't even hide the winner of the league till the episode released.

But regarding some things i've been doing, has anyone been doing something like having some moveset ideas for other pokemon or other characters in general.
I've been in the mood making a Samurott moveset and i've done (and by done i mean think of) it's specials, aerials and even it's ''gimmick''. Heck, most of the recolors i made i'm quite happy about.

And i've also been wanting to see the Lycanroc moveset animated, so i started (granted, very slowly and with minimal experience + College stuff in the way) trying to make animations in blender. Don't have much as of now, but hopefully i'll have something around November.

 

[Delzethin]

Oof, I've been exhausted the past couple days, which is why I've been so slow to respond to the pretty big deal that dropped earlier. At least I think I've figured out why I've been knocked flat on my back end. Damn allergy meds...

Potential major, major anime leak:

Spoiler

In the corner photo of this magazine, Ash can be seen holding a trophy with Kukui and the Kahunas at what looks to be an awards ceremony.

Hype responsibly and all that, but it really does seem like Ash's gonna win the league. With Lycanroc in the champion match!

Sorry for the double post, but this was accidentally put in as part of a preview. We have an official winner of the Alolan Pokemon League.

Spoiler

Spoiler: Real spoilers. Avoid if you don't want to spoil the outcome.

View attachment 238024

Lycanroc is the one who gets Ash his very first league win in anime history.

Honestly, this is probably the next best thing to getting Lycanroc in Smash. I doubt it'll ever fade away into obscurity now.

Spoiler

Well, barring a surprise twist for the sake of having a surprise twist, it looks like gaming history's about to be made...sort of.

Hopefully the fact that there's an exhibition match happening next month doesn't lead people to dismiss Ash winning his first ever League tournament as not being as big a deal as past Leagues. Been seeing some talk in various places of that already, though I'm not sure how accurate a sample they are of the fandom as a whole. I've also seen some pre-emptive salt that it happened here and not in Kalos or somewhere else...though those particular reactions seem to be coming from people who think Ash's story is going to conclude here now and the Gen 8 anime's going to be a full reboot. Which...I'm not convinced of that.

Either way, as long as the last leg of the finals is handled competently, Lycanroc will be remembered just like many of Ash's team leaders before. Hopefully they're fond memories, not bitter ones.

 

[Cosmic77]

No one's posted it yet, so I'll be the first.

Spoiler

 

[Garteam]

He really did it.

We're officially Alolan champions!

 

[RandomAce]

No one's posted it yet, so I'll be the first.

Spoiler

View attachment 238350View attachment 238351

ASH WON THE LEAGUE.

In terms of writing, I think it’s safe to say that the episode went exactly how people here wanted it to go. Having Midnight vs Dusk as the final battle, with a lot of emphasis put on them leading up to the fight, lots of clutch moments, and Dusk laying the final blow, it was great!

Animation wasn’t as stellar as I’d hope, and Gladion did suffer from Dragon Claw syndrome, but otherwise, Lycanroc got Ash’s first league in the anime’s 20 year history!

I know I said it before, but with it being real... Seeing how they decided to make the climax of the league involve solely on the Lycanrocs, and the fact that they decided to make Dusk Lycanroc take the monumental win rather than Pikachu... really goes to show that Lycanroc is becoming one of Pokemon’s rising stars, and hopefully, will be seen as such for years to come.

 

[Cosmic77]

ASH WON THE LEAGUE.

In terms of writing, I think it’s safe to say that the episode went exactly how people here wanted it to go. Having Midnight vs Dusk as the final battle, with a lot of emphasis put on them leading up to the fight, lots of clutch moments, and Dusk laying the final blow, it was great!

Animation wasn’t as stellar as I’d hope, and Gladion did suffer from Dragon Claw syndrome, but otherwise, Lycanroc got Ash’s first league in the anime’s 20 year history!

I know I said it before, but with it being real... Seeing how they decided to make the climax of the league involve solely on the Lycanrocs, and the fact that they decided to make Dusk Lycanroc take the monumental win rather than Pikachu... really goes to show that Lycanroc is becoming one of Pokemon’s rising stars, and hopefully, will be seen as such for years to come.

Pokemon Masters is reassuring, but SwSh is the real decider. I'll admit, I am a little worried it won't get in, but seeing how Alola currently has the fewest number of Pokemon revealed (20), I'm not frantic just yet.

Also, on an unrelated note, Kukui has a Lucario. Here I was thinking we might actually go a whole series without seeing it, but just like Charizard and Eevee, it's probably not taking a break any time soon.

 

[LukeRNG]

Even though i'd already spoiled myself beforehand, i was quite more on the edge of my seat than i thought i'd be.
I'm still quite curious what the unamed episode is about. It seems to be like a continuation to the Guzzlord episode. We might finally see Mohn return.

 

[Super10ZX]

I’m gonna keep my hopes down and say Ash will probably lose to either Hau or Guzma. But, if he wins the League, even if he loses to Kukui at the end, it will be one of the greatest moments in the Pokémon anime for me. Finally, after over 1000 episodes, Ash accomplishes one of his major goals. It would definitely make more people look at the Sun & Moon anime, that’s for sure. Even if Ash becomes the Champion, we all know he’s gonna give up his title to someone else.

Hello past me from 2 and a half months ago. Just wanted to say that ASH WON THE LEAGUE!

I already posted some of my quick joyful thoughts on the Bulbagarden Fourms right here: https://forums.bulbagarden.net/inde...the-alola-champion.271894/page-8#post-6870908

This feels.... incredible. It feels like one of the things I’ve waited years to see yet was just a pipe dream finally came true. And that Lycanroc vs Lycanroc fight was great. I was kinda getting annoyed when watching how often Gladion’s Lycanroc successfully got to use Counter, but then it just made it more exciting when Ash’s Lycanroc used Counter to deal the final blow!

If Lycanroc can’t be in Smash, being the star of Ash’s first League victory is a great alternate prize. And as something I wanted to say about Lycanroc in Smash, his chances may seem lower than ever now, but don’t give up. Make a noise about wanting him in Smash, vote for him in fan polls, make him a highly requested character with a vocal fan base (just don’t Tweet directly at Sakurai or something like that). I feel showing that Lycanroc is a popular pick for Smash will only increase his chances, and maybe one day he can be in Smash. Even if it takes a very long time, just remember it took Ash 22 years to win a proper League, and look at where we are today.

 

[Guynamednelson]

And as something I wanted to say about Lycanroc in Smash, his chances may seem lower than ever now, but don’t give up. Make a noise about wanting him in Smash, vote for him in fan polls, make him a highly requested character with a vocal fan base (just don’t Tweet directly at Sakurai or something like that). I feel showing that Lycanroc is a popular pick for Smash will only increase his chances, and maybe one day he can be in Smash. Even if it takes a very long time, just remember it took Ash 22 years to win a proper League, and look at where we are today.

There'd be competition from:

• People submissive to Incineroar
• Grass starter quota stans
• People who want gen 3/5/8 Pokemon
• People who want Pikachu to be the only non-anthromorphic Pokemon on the Smash roster
• People who complain about wanting more Pokemon, ignoring how they want another Mario/FE character themselves

Talk about a grand trial.

 

[LukeRNG]

Hello past me from 2 and a half months ago. Just wanted to say that ASH WON THE LEAGUE!

I already posted some of my quick joyful thoughts on the Bulbagarden Fourms right here: https://forums.bulbagarden.net/inde...the-alola-champion.271894/page-8#post-6870908

This feels.... incredible. It feels like one of the things I’ve waited years to see yet was just a pipe dream finally came true. And that Lycanroc vs Lycanroc fight was great. I was kinda getting annoyed when watching how often Gladion’s Lycanroc successfully got to use Counter, but then it just made it more exciting when Ash’s Lycanroc used Counter to deal the final blow!

If Lycanroc can’t be in Smash, being the star of Ash’s first League victory is a great alternate prize. And as something I wanted to say about Lycanroc in Smash, his chances may seem lower than ever now, but don’t give up. Make a noise about wanting him in Smash, vote for him in fan polls, make him a highly requested character with a vocal fan base (just don’t Tweet directly at Sakurai or something like that). I feel showing that Lycanroc is a popular pick for Smash will only increase his chances, and maybe one day he can be in Smash. Even if it takes a very long time, just remember it took Ash 22 years to win a proper League, and look at where we are today.

Highly doubt Ash's Lycanroc will be forgotten or ignored thanks to getting Ash that long awaited League victory. Lycanroc itself may not necessarily be ash's best pokemon of all time, but it's up there.

And i don't know, i kinda feel now that the 5th character could be anyone, even a 1st party. Otherwise why would they announce more dlc so soon right after fighter #4 was revealed. Many people sadly would feel underwhelmed if the last character was a 1st party. But knowing more characters are coming, that feeling of ''that's it?'' would go down significantly.

Then again, it could be a character not many people know about or care about.

There'd be competition from:

• People submissive to Incineroar
• Grass starter quota stans
• People who want gen 3/5/8 Pokemon
• People who want Pikachu to be the only non-anthromorphic Pokemon on the Smash roster
• People who complain about wanting more Pokemon, ignoring how they want another Mario/FE character themselves

Talk about a grand trial.

Don't think that first or second part actually matters in the perspective of adding another pokemon from gen 7. Sakurai has added more characters to a series he was feeling was getting overrepresented. And that whole grass starter arguement is so void it's not funny (Just look at Fire Emblem & the lack of the weapon triangle). Never heard the 4th point at all, and if it's true that people say that, it's the dumbest thing ever.

In the end, while it might be frustrating dealing with these people if lycanroc does get in, Sakurai doesn't care about what those types of people say. He'll add whoever he wants. He's the man that gave us Piranha Plant.

 

[Cosmic77]

There'd be competition from:

• People who want Pikachu to be the only non-anthromorphic Pokemon on the Smash roster

Those people actually exist?

(Edit: And what about Ivysaur?)

 

[Guynamednelson]

Those people actually exist?

I exaggerate, because I'm sure they'd be fine with Charizard, but yeah, look at how Decidueye was a bigger focus for SSBU speculation than the more promoted Mimikyu and Lycanroc. Look at how the Pokemon Smash fans want to cut the most are the less anthromorphic ones besides Pikachu and Charizard.

 

[LukeRNG]

I exaggerate, because I'm sure they'd be fine with Charizard, but yeah, look at how Decidueye was a bigger focus for SSBU speculation than the more promoted Mimikyu and Lycanroc. Look at how the Pokemon Smash fans want to cut the most are the less anthromorphic ones besides Pikachu and Charizard.

I think that's because most starters stand on 2 legs. And starters are the easiest target for smash speculation, at least thanks to Greninja. And people desperately want to complete the starter trio assuming that Charizard & Greninja would return and not Pokemon Trainer.

 

[RandomAce]

Small little tidbit... Ash’s Lycanroc has been confirmed to be male since Gladion referred to Dusk as “he” and “his” in the Finals episode.

Just something I found interesting since I don’t think Ash’s Lycanroc’s gender has been confirmed up til now.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Don't think that first or second part actually matters in the perspective of adding another pokemon from gen 7

The first part definitely does matter. People give in to Incineroar because it automatically taunts and is the kind of Pokemon Smash fans wish dominated its Pokemon selection, and Lycanroc isn't.

And starters are the easiest target for smash speculation

Well yeah, they are if you don't actually notice what's being promoted. I know some of you don't want me to make this some kind of "promotion measuring contest", but being more promoted on top of more popular is why Nintendo would choose a second Gen 7 rep. And it being unlike Incineroar and the Smash fanbase's preferred kind of Pokemon, since they want new demographics.

 

[Garteam]

(Sorry Greninjafans, just posting this because it made me laugh)

Since this win, people seem to be a lot more unanimous that Lycanroc was Ash's ace for Alola. I've even been seeing him put on a lot of "Ash's best team" lists alongside Pokemon like Charizard, Sceptile, and Greninja. Here's to hoping this momentum will get others to hear out our case.

EDIT: You want to know how big a deal this win is? CNN has reported on it. The second most popular news channel in the United States is reporting on this:

In the latest episode of "Pokémon the Series: Sun and Moon," Ash Ketchum finally wins the championship competition of the Alola League, marking the first time the protagonist has won an official Pokémon League tournament https://t.co/9LKPYlPF5M

— CNN (@CNN) September 15, 2019

 

[Delzethin]

You know, I spent an entire day trying to come up with some big celebratory thing, but at this point I think I'd just be repeating what you guys have already done. If you'd asked people a few years ago if the anime would ever let Ash win a regional League, you'd have been met with a 50-50 split of laughing and dejected sighs. Even a few months ago, the very idea was something unheard of.

And yet, here we are. Something we've waited to see happen since we were kids has finally come to pass. And it was even thanks to the character we've been pulling for this whole time! There was even an appreciation thread on Reddit, though it got closed down (probably because the original post was just a topic title and screenshot with no other context).

Maybe by some miracle we're not done quite yet on the Smash side of things, but even if it turns out we are, Lycanroc will not be forgotten any time soon. It's...reassuring, to see more people start to notice and take interest themselves, wouldn't you say?

 

[RileyXY1]

You know, I spent an entire day trying to come up with some big celebratory thing, but at this point I think I'd just be repeating what you guys have already done. If you'd asked people a few years ago if the anime would ever let Ash win a regional League, you'd have been met with a 50-50 split of laughing and dejected sighs. Even a few months ago, the very idea was something unheard of.

And yet, here we are. Something we've waited to see happen since we were kids has finally come to pass. And it was even thanks to the character we've been pulling for this whole time! There was even an appreciation thread on Reddit, though it got closed down (probably because the original post was just a topic title and screenshot with no other context).

Maybe by some miracle we're not done quite yet on the Smash side of things, but even if it turns out we are, Lycanroc will not be forgotten any time soon. It's...reassuring, to see more people start to notice and take interest themselves, wouldn't you say?

Considering that it's the Pokemon that finally gave Ash his first true league victory, I think yes.

 

[LukeRNG]

The first part definitely does matter. People give in to Incineroar because it automatically taunts and is the kind of Pokemon Smash fans wish dominated its Pokemon selection, and Lycanroc isn't.

I guess what i tried to say but failed to do so, was to say that Sakurai doesn't care about that point. The most speculated pokemon newcomer, from what i've seen in the days of smash 4 & ultimate is always wrong. Sakurai will go with his gut and whatever Gamefreak will give him to work with. Just so happens that Greninja hit the biggest mark of all being the #1 most popular pokemon in japan in 2016.

Don't really have much to say regarding Smash fans wanting pokemon like incineroar being always selected for smash. Care to give me some examples to better understand the supposed obssesion with Incineroar.

 

[Cosmic77]

The only obsession I've noticed from Smash fans regarding Pokemon is their preference for grass starters and their inability to think outside the three starters.

Honestly, I think I'll lose my mind if we go into Gen VIII and no one will shut up about how awesome the Grookey evo would be in Smash. At this point, you can't say it's just a coincidence.First Sceptile, then Decidueye, and then the Grookey evo, and people will refuse to make the connection and instead claim the grass typing has nothing to do with it and that the grass starters are consistently more unique. Now I'm not saying the Grookey evo won't end up being unique, but I have a feeling that regardless of what Scorbunny and to a lesser extent Sobble's evo looks like, people will drift toward Grookey's.

And then there's the assumption that the starters are the only Pokemon with decent chances, despite the fact that this trend literally just started in Smash 4. None of the Gen 2 starters got in Melee, and none of the Gen 4 starters got in Brawl,. The Kanto starters (Charizard included) may have never made it in Smash if it weren't for Sakurai wanting to represent the generic human avatar that's playable in every game.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Care to give me some examples to better understand the supposed obssesion with Incineroar.

It's not necessarily an obsession with Incineroar as it is thinking Incineroar's good enough and we won't/shouldn't get another.

The only obsession I've noticed from Smash fans regarding Pokemon is their preference for grass starters and their inability to think outside the three starters.

Honestly, I think I'll lose my mind if we go into Gen VIII and no one will shut up about how awesome the Grookey evo would be in Smash. At this point, you can't say it's just a coincidence.First Sceptile, then Decidueye, and then the Grookey evo, and people will refuse to make the connection and instead claim the grass typing has nothing to do with it and that the grass starters are consistently more unique. Now I'm not saying the Grookey evo won't end up being unique, but I have a feeling that regardless of what Scorbunny and to a lesser extent Sobble's evo looks like, people will drift toward Grookey's.

And then there's the assumption that the starters are the only Pokemon with decent chances, despite the fact that this trend literally just started in Smash 4. None of the Gen 2 starters got in Melee, and none of the Gen 4 starters got in Brawl,. The Kanto starters (Charizard included) may have never made it in Smash if it weren't for Sakurai wanting to represent the generic human avatar that's playable in every game.

Even if it is to "balance" the roster, they'd be ending up causing another imbalance since it's yet another fully evolved starter that got in over an established fan favorite.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

The only obsession I've noticed from Smash fans regarding Pokemon is their preference for grass starters and their inability to think outside the three starters.

Honestly, I think I'll lose my mind if we go into Gen VIII and no one will shut up about how awesome the Grookey evo would be in Smash. At this point, you can't say it's just a coincidence.First Sceptile, then Decidueye, and then the Grookey evo, and people will refuse to make the connection and instead claim the grass typing has nothing to do with it and that the grass starters are consistently more unique. Now I'm not saying the Grookey evo won't end up being unique, but I have a feeling that regardless of what Scorbunny and to a lesser extent Sobble's evo looks like, people will drift toward Grookey's.

And then there's the assumption that the starters are the only Pokemon with decent chances, despite the fact that this trend literally just started in Smash 4. None of the Gen 2 starters got in Melee, and none of the Gen 4 starters got in Brawl,. The Kanto starters (Charizard included) may have never made it in Smash if it weren't for Sakurai wanting to represent the generic human avatar that's playable in every game.

But now we gotta seperate the different reasons why the grass starter is often the pick that floats above the others. Yes, there is a faction of Smash fans that will always pick the grass starter as their Smash pick because of the often-toted pattern, but you can't look at the entire crowd that rallied behind Sceptile, Decidueye and potentially Grookevo.

In general, the grass typing is not only "unique" in the sense that there's no character to "rep" it pattern-wise, it's also a visual element that's only barely tapped in only two characters in the game: Ivysaur and arguably Plant. Ivysaur is part of Pokémon Trainer and Plant focusses more on the variety of subspecies it has and on its unorthodox body frame. Thus, when talking uniqueness, the grass element is an easy way to bring something unique to the table, something that's harder to do with the element of fire. This isn't just a grass Pokémon talking point, since Delz and other of us Lycanroc fans have touted the earth abilities as rightfully visually unique and I don't see why it would be bandwagoning when applied to another type.

Then there's the cases we've had so far: Sceptile and Decidueye. Sceptile's popularity is the one that was arguably mostly based on the "grass starter pattern", but even then his popularity was propped up by both his Pokken appearance and the unique set he had there and eventually the ORAS remakes making him relevant in a speculation era where timing was deemed all-or-nothing. Compared to the other candidates of Sceptile's gen, Blaziken might've been more popular, but his moveset was deemed unoriginal in the sea of fire users, including Captain Falcon, and Swampert's body type was less useable for Smash. For regular Pokémon of Gen III (focussing on that gen since the remakes were anticipated or released during Sceptile's "reign") Gardevoir was a summon and the Legendaries were Too Big.

Decidueye was a contiuation of the Sceptile fanbase, but also stood on his own and garnered more interest for being both an archer, a bird and a ghost type on top of his grassy roots (ahem). For competition, the other fanbases came later and the Decidueye fanbase arguably fell off once we learned more about the game and different factions rose to prominence, such as Mimikyu and Lycanroc's. We can't even say for sure how the fanbase's approval towards the several Pokémon would've developed if there wasn't a leak. Lycanroc was picking up steam before the leak, iirc. The water starter this time wasn't much of a viable pick based on body type and the "bipedal semi-legendary pattern" of old that gave us Mewtwo and Lucario wasn't applicable to this gen until the thundercat, who came into the picture very late , so it's hard to say if Grookey will be the king of terror next speculation round if Sobble gets a body type suitable for Smash or if the biped leg makes a proper entrance Scorbunny might get the shaft from the fanbase based on typing as well, but seeing the vitrol towards Incineroar here as well, I'd say it'd be hypocritical if we said it'd be shallow for the big bad outside fanbase to prefer Grookey's evo to Scorb's based on typing.

Then there's Zacian and Zamazenta, who seem to be smaller than their previous legendaries. It's hard to say there's a pattern based on two rounds of speculation and it's even harder, if not impossible, to pinpoint an exact reason.

 

[Guynamednelson]

But now we gotta seperate the different reasons why the grass starter is often the pick that floats above the others. Yes, there is a faction of Smash fans that will always pick the grass starter as their Smash pick because of the often-toted pattern, but you can't look at the entire crowd that rallied behind Sceptile, Decidueye and potentially Grookevo.

In general, the grass typing is not only "unique" in the sense that there's no character to "rep" it pattern-wise, it's also a visual element that's only barely tapped in only two characters in the game: Ivysaur and arguably Plant. Ivysaur is part of Pokémon Trainer and Plant focusses more on the variety of subspecies it has and on its unorthodox body frame. Thus, when talking uniqueness, the grass element is an easy way to bring something unique to the table, something that's harder to do with the element of fire. This isn't just a grass Pokémon talking point, since Delz and other of us Lycanroc fans have touted the earth abilities as rightfully visually unique and I don't see why it would be bandwagoning when applied to another type.

Then there's the cases we've had so far: Sceptile and Decidueye. Sceptile's popularity is the one that was arguably mostly based on the "grass starter pattern", but even then his popularity was propped up by both his Pokken appearance and the unique set he had there and eventually the ORAS remakes making him relevant in a speculation era where timing was deemed all-or-nothing. Compared to the other candidates of Sceptile's gen, Blaziken might've been more popular, but his moveset was deemed unoriginal in the sea of fire users, including Captain Falcon, and Swampert's body type was less useable for Smash. For regular Pokémon of Gen III (focussing on that gen since the remakes were anticipated or released during Sceptile's "reign") Gardevoir was a summon and the Legendaries were Too Big.

Decidueye was a contiuation of the Sceptile fanbase, but also stood on his own and garnered more interest for being both an archer, a bird and a ghost type on top of his grassy roots (ahem). For competition, the other fanbases came later and the Decidueye fanbase arguably fell off once we learned more about the game and different factions rose to prominence, such as Mimikyu and Lycanroc's. We can't even say for sure how the fanbase's approval towards the several Pokémon would've developed if there wasn't a leak. Lycanroc was picking up steam before the leak, iirc. The water starter this time wasn't much of a viable pick based on body type and the "bipedal semi-legendary pattern" of old that gave us Mewtwo and Lucario wasn't applicable to this gen until the thundercat, who came into the picture very late , so it's hard to say if Grookey will be the king of terror next speculation round if Sobble gets a body type suitable for Smash or if the biped leg makes a proper entrance Scorbunny might get the shaft from the fanbase based on typing as well, but seeing the vitrol towards Incineroar here as well, I'd say it'd be hypocritical if we said it'd be shallow for the big bad outside fanbase to prefer Grookey's evo to Scorb's based on typing.

Then there's Zacian and Zamazenta, who seem to be smaller than their previous legendaries. It's hard to say there's a pattern based on two rounds of speculation and it's even harder, if not impossible, to pinpoint an exact reason.

Pokemon should just be held to the same standard as other franchises. For example, look at how people wish Zelda could get fighters outside of the Triforce Trio. If it's okay for one series to get fighters outside of a recurring trio, it should be okay for another.

 

[Delzethin]

Don't really have much to say regarding Smash fans wanting pokemon like incineroar being always selected for smash. Care to give me some examples to better understand the supposed obssesion with Incineroar.

Looking back, it was less an obsession over the character itself and more about a couple other factors. One was the rumors and the tendency for newcomer speculation to revolve around them--the greater community gravitates toward characters considered to have the greatest chance of getting in (though the Smash community also has a problem with thinking the more often a character is talked about the more likely they must be), and being mentioned in a rumor that gets popular will do that.

The other was from some people touting the idea of adding a "real grappler" to the roster as a means to...make Smash feel more legitimate of a fighting game, I guess. Which kinda missed the point since Smash already had multiple grappler type characters and grapplers just function a little differently in platform fighters than they do in traditional fighting games. And lo and behold, the moveset we got was in the style of Bowser, DK, and the others, not something lined with command grabs on every special just for the sake of them being there.

The only obsession I've noticed from Smash fans regarding Pokemon is their preference for grass starters and their inability to think outside the three starters.

Honestly, I think I'll lose my mind if we go into Gen VIII and no one will shut up about how awesome the Grookey evo would be in Smash. At this point, you can't say it's just a coincidence.First Sceptile, then Decidueye, and then the Grookey evo, and people will refuse to make the connection and instead claim the grass typing has nothing to do with it and that the grass starters are consistently more unique. Now I'm not saying the Grookey evo won't end up being unique, but I have a feeling that regardless of what Scorbunny and to a lesser extent Sobble's evo looks like, people will drift toward Grookey's.

And then there's the assumption that the starters are the only Pokemon with decent chances, despite the fact that this trend literally just started in Smash 4. None of the Gen 2 starters got in Melee, and none of the Gen 4 starters got in Brawl,. The Kanto starters (Charizard included) may have never made it in Smash if it weren't for Sakurai wanting to represent the generic human avatar that's playable in every game.

For what it's worth, Sceptile and Decidueye weren't so clear-cut with that. Both of 'em are also legitimately popular characters within their home series, which made it difficult to tell how much of their support was from people who just really liked them and how much was from people who wanted a Grass starter on the roster to complete a set.

It is still frustrating to see this laser focus on starters, though, especially since we've seen several non-starters get the nod in past games. I've started to notice that for some, newcomers are more of a means to an end. Whether with the "real grappler" talk or the need to have a Grass starter to have a complete trio or even a growing section of the Smash fandom who wants nothing but super big name third parties from here on out so Smash can become the biggest, craziest crossover of all gaming companies ever, it's less about what the character could do and more about what ideas or companies or trends they'd "represent". Very different from those of us who are more interested in the characters themselves and what new or unique things they could do! Like two opposing factions, almost, waging verbal wars on forums and social media.

Heh, maybe I'm letting Three Houses go to my head a little too much.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Looking back, it was less an obsession over the character itself and more about a couple other factors. One was the rumors and the tendency for newcomer speculation to revolve around them--the greater community gravitates toward characters considered to have the greatest chance of getting in (though the Smash community also has a problem with thinking the more often a character is talked about the more likely they must be), and being mentioned in a rumor that gets popular will do that.

The other was from some people touting the idea of adding a "real grappler" to the roster as a means to...make Smash feel more legitimate of a fighting game, I guess. Which kinda missed the point since Smash already had multiple grappler type characters and grapplers just function a little differently in platform fighters than they do in traditional fighting games. And lo and behold, the moveset we got was in the style of Bowser, DK, and the others, not something lined with command grabs on every special just for the sake of them being there.


For what it's worth, Sceptile and Decidueye weren't so clear-cut with that. Both of 'em are also legitimately popular characters within their home series, which made it difficult to tell how much of their support was from people who just really liked them and how much was from people who wanted a Grass starter on the roster to complete a set.

It is still frustrating to see this laser focus on starters, though, especially since we've seen several non-starters get the nod in past games. I've started to notice that for some, newcomers are more of a means to an end. Whether with the "real grappler" talk or the need to have a Grass starter to have a complete trio or even a growing section of the Smash fandom who wants nothing but super big name third parties from here on out so Smash can become the biggest, craziest crossover of all gaming companies ever, it's less about what the character could do and more about what ideas or companies or trends they'd "represent". Very different from those of us who are more interested in the characters themselves and what new or unique things they could do! Like two opposing factions, almost, waging verbal wars on forums and social media.

Heh, maybe I'm letting Three Houses go to my head a little too much.

Again, the line between "rep" and "unique trait" is quite thin, so before we cut any corners in our reasoning and say that people supported Incineroar as a means to get a grappling moveset in the same vein people want a grass starter 'to complete the trio', it's useful to assess if the public didn't look for noteworthy gaps of the ranges of fighting styles in Smash and found a grappler or grass type to be guaranteedly unique, in the same vein that Bandana Dee fans note there's no spear user yet and both Isaac fans and Lycanroc fans firmly hold their ground when it comes to....ground. There's a difference between wanting an indie "rep" and wanting an indie character because one feels they could bring a new angle to the roster or one simplyhas a most wanted that happens to be indie. Same with third parties. How much of its speculation is "Everything has to be bigger" and how much is "I can finally dream big when it comes to my dream franchise making the cut (and apply wishful thinking that it has a chance since the general pattern seems to point towards third party)". Sure, hearing someone say "This company could get a rep" might be odd, but it's only a slight variation from "I like this series and it goes pretty far back on Nintendo" or are merely convo starters "Ubisoft has quite a few characters that could make the cut, who do you prefer/think fits in Smash best" etc.

Noting something to be a "means to an end" undermines the importance that movesets have and cutting corners in reasoning leads to jumps in logic like "Sakurai picked Corrin to be from a new timeframe, so he's an advertisement"

 

[LukeRNG]

I just realized we haven't really talked about music in the game. What has been your favorite song from all the dlc we've got, whether old or new remixes?

My favorite songs mostly come from persona, namely Beneath the Mask & Rivers in the Desert.
From Banjo, it's difficult: there's Treasure Trove Cove (Just realized it was composed by Yoko Shimomura, just what is there that she can't do), Spiral Mountain & Mad Monster Mansion.
Oh yeah, and Megalovania.

Wonder if they would stick to just USUM music if Lycanroc would get added, or maybe a few music tracks from other pokemon games.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I just realized we haven't really talked about music in the game. What has been your favorite song from all the dlc we've got, whether old or new remixes?

My favorite songs mostly come from persona, namely Beneath the Mask & Rivers in the Desert.
From Banjo, it's difficult: there's Treasure Trove Cove (Just realized it was composed by Yoko Shimomura, just what is there that she can't do), Spiral Mountain & Mad Monster Mansion.
Oh yeah, and Megalovania.

Wonder if they would stick to just USUM music if Lycanroc would get added, or maybe a few music tracks from other pokemon games.

Persona: Rivers in the Desert, Mass Destruction
Dragon Quest: War Cry
Banjo-Kazooie: Gobi's Valley
Fatal Fury: Kurikinton, Geese ni Shoyu

As for Lycanroc, I do believe USUM would be the main focus.

 

[Delzethin]

Again, the line between "rep" and "unique trait" is quite thin, so before we cut any corners in our reasoning and say that people supported Incineroar as a means to get a grappling moveset in the same vein people want a grass starter 'to complete the trio', it's useful to assess if the public didn't look for noteworthy gaps of the ranges of fighting styles in Smash and found a grappler or grass type to be guaranteedly unique, in the same vein that Bandana Dee fans note there's no spear user yet and both Isaac fans and Lycanroc fans firmly hold their ground when it comes to....ground. There's a difference between wanting an indie "rep" and wanting an indie character because one feels they could bring a new angle to the roster or one simplyhas a most wanted that happens to be indie. Same with third parties. How much of its speculation is "Everything has to be bigger" and how much is "I can finally dream big when it comes to my dream franchise making the cut (and apply wishful thinking that it has a chance since the general pattern seems to point towards third party)". Sure, hearing someone say "This company could get a rep" might be odd, but it's only a slight variation from "I like this series and it goes pretty far back on Nintendo" or are merely convo starters "Ubisoft has quite a few characters that could make the cut, who do you prefer/think fits in Smash best" etc.

Noting something to be a "means to an end" undermines the importance that movesets have and cutting corners in reasoning leads to jumps in logic like "Sakurai picked Corrin to be from a new timeframe, so he's an advertisement"

Yeah, I admit I oversimplified it in a half-awake state yesterday. There are a lot of subgroups at play here, and even among the bigger ones you have people who disagree on the minutiae. I've just noticed there's a recurring theme among some community members of wanting characters as a means to an end rather than the characters being the end, and it's an idea that's spread more as of late.

Or maybe the people who already held such beliefs are just being louder. Hm.


On a side note, anyone have any theories on how the next couple anime episodes are going to play out? We have a Guzzlord crashing the closing ceremony next, but we know nothing about the episode after that. Considering the one following it is the exhibition match with Kukui, everything must turn out (mostly) okay, so the question is what the content of the unknown episode will be and how this new dilemma will get wrapped up.

 

[LukeRNG]

Yeah, I admit I oversimplified it in a half-awake state yesterday. There are a lot of subgroups at play here, and even among the bigger ones you have people who disagree on the minutiae. I've just noticed there's a recurring theme among some community members of wanting characters as a means to an end rather than the characters being the end, and it's an idea that's spread more as of late.

Or maybe the people who already held such beliefs are just being louder. Hm.


On a side note, anyone have any theories on how the next couple anime episodes are going to play out? We have a Guzzlord crashing the closing ceremony next, but we know nothing about the episode after that. Considering the one following it is the exhibition match with Kukui, everything must turn out (mostly) okay, so the question is what the content of the unknown episode will be and how this new dilemma will get wrapped up.

The unknown episode has to be a big thing, and here's some things i have in mind:
-The physical debut of Mohn, the safest guess.
-Maybe old characters return for some reason, with Misty & Brock included.
-Something potentially big with Team Rocket (Giovanni has had quite the buildup in this series, namely knowing of the blinding one and personally knowing Nanu. Really curious where this goes and if it may be a big focus in the next series.).
-Maybe a character or just a pokemon from the Galar region.

 

[RandomAce]

Again, the line between "rep" and "unique trait" is quite thin, so before we cut any corners in our reasoning and say that people supported Incineroar as a means to get a grappling moveset in the same vein people want a grass starter 'to complete the trio', it's useful to assess if the public didn't look for noteworthy gaps of the ranges of fighting styles in Smash and found a grappler or grass type to be guaranteedly unique, in the same vein that Bandana Dee fans note there's no spear user yet and both Isaac fans and Lycanroc fans firmly hold their ground when it comes to....ground. There's a difference between wanting an indie "rep" and wanting an indie character because one feels they could bring a new angle to the roster or one simplyhas a most wanted that happens to be indie. Same with third parties. How much of its speculation is "Everything has to be bigger" and how much is "I can finally dream big when it comes to my dream franchise making the cut (and apply wishful thinking that it has a chance since the general pattern seems to point towards third party)". Sure, hearing someone say "This company could get a rep" might be odd, but it's only a slight variation from "I like this series and it goes pretty far back on Nintendo" or are merely convo starters "Ubisoft has quite a few characters that could make the cut, who do you prefer/think fits in Smash best" etc.

Noting something to be a "means to an end" undermines the importance that movesets have and cutting corners in reasoning leads to jumps in logic like "Sakurai picked Corrin to be from a new timeframe, so he's an advertisement"

In reality, the overwhelming belief is that the rest of the DLC will be most if not all third parties.

Sure you can say that some people see this as a chance that their favorite is in, that will always be the case. However, you can’t look at snippets of DLC speculation here and not come to the conclusion that that’s the belief that a lot of people have from a speculative standpoint and not from passion of a certain character (a lot of people have stated to be pretty satisfied with the roster as is as well).

When it comes to Galar, speculation isn’t really that ramped up because we generally don’t a lot about the new Pokémon. However, this scenario is a different case than Decidueye and Sceptile, because a lot of people are simply predicting the Galar starters and to an extent Grookey’s final evolution before seeing what they will even be (we have some “leaks”, but they’re vague as is). Considering how the previous to characters have been Greninja and Incineroar, it isn’t a stretch for people to think if a Galar Pokémon were to join the fray it would be a starter.

I say “simply predicting” because speculation of a Galar Pokémon hasn’t really hit off yet, and with a small pool of new Pokémon there really aren’t a lot of choices to reasonably go with either, but it seems current predictions seem to go with the starter mindset. Of course I could be wrong seeing how Mimikyu and Lycanroc did pick up steam during Ultimate’s cycle, so Galar speculation could potentially be even more diverse, but the starters do seem to be safe predictions.

 

[LukeRNG]

Well, now it makes sense why the episode title wasn't shown. It had a spoiler as to who won the league.
I thought way too hard about it.

 

[RandomAce]

Couple things to know from the recent episode:

Firstly, Poipole evolves and returns to Ash’s team, giving Ash his full Alola team.

Secondly, Kukui’s secret as the Masked Royale has been revealed and his match against Ash actually starts next week. So far we’ve seen snippets of two battles that are going to happen, Lycanroc vs Incineroar, and Torrocat vs Incineroar. We’ll probably know how they’ll go by next week.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Lycanroc vs Incineroar

Should we prepare for this thread to get **** on if Lycanroc loses?

 

[LukeRNG]

Should we prepare for this thread to get **** on if Lycanroc loses?

Why should we worry about that? What makes you think we'll get hostile comments from that?

 

[Delzethin]

Couple things to know from the recent episode:

Firstly, Poipole evolves and returns to Ash’s team, giving Ash his full Alola team.

Secondly, Kukui’s secret as the Masked Royale has been revealed and his match against Ash actually starts next week. So far we’ve seen snippets of two battles that are going to happen, Lycanroc vs Incineroar, and Torrocat vs Incineroar. We’ll probably know how they’ll go by next week.

Yeah, turns out the reason they kept the episode title hidden was a lot more mundane than we expected: it spoils that 1) Ash won the Alola League and 2) Kukui got outed as the Masked Royal in-universe. And here I was expecting the Ultra Recon Squad to get pulled into Ultra Space or something and spend an episode figuring out how to return home, eventually escaping with help from Nebby (in a call back to traveling through Ultra Space in USUM and even finding/rescuing Mohn.

But, turning the exhibition match with Kukui into a two-parter also works.

And on that note, check out the scoreboard in this screenshot:

It's a bit difficult to make out, but we can tell from here that Kukui's leading with his Incineroar while Ash is opening up with Lycanroc. Except there are also icons for Torracat and Pikachu revealed on Ash's side, with no one else for Kukui. What's up with that? One theory going around is that Kukui's using Roar to force switches and scout out Ash's team, which would explain the seemingly random reveals without any actual KOs happening so far. Perhaps Lycanroc just got forced back in here?

Either way, it's also interesting that the focus of Part 1 of the battle is bringing down Kukui's Incineroar. We know the following episode is Part 2 of the Ash/Kukui fight...so there must be some big thing happening in that episode from a narrative standpoint, right? It'd be weird to have the climax of the battle be at the very beginning, so Kukui must have something up his sleeve. And not necessarily a Galar 'mon, either, since the Galar anime's getting a full reveal during Part 1, not Part 2.

My theory for now? Kukui's last 'mon is going to be none other than Tapu Koko, who teamed up with the professor temporarily on the promise of facing a worthy opponent.

Should we prepare for this thread to get **** on if Lycanroc loses?

Well...hopefully not. Not sure who all else on the boards are even paying attention to the anime, especially since it seems like Incineroar's more popular among non-Pokémon fans than anything. And it makes sense that someone who's been seeing battles for around 25 years in-universe would be difficult to bring down.

That said...it couldn't hurt to be ready in case we do get any gawkers. Never underestimate the lengths some will go in bad faith to get a "win".

 

[LukeRNG]

I don't think we've talked about the possibility of dlc characters after the fighter's pass not having a stage or any music come with them.
Corrin didn't come with a stage but did have 2 songs. They could do something similar with Lycanroc or anyone else: Lycanroc could come with just a stage or just music, or maybe neither.

What do you think of the possibility?