Day, Night, and Dusk - Lycanroc for Smash Bros. Ultimate

Delzethin

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Some speculation has popped up that we might get a Nintendo Direct earlier than expected, based on new developments like this:


One leading theory is that one could potentially happen in early-mid September rather than October, which could throw off some guesses about when a reveal could happen. Unless Banjo is coming significantly sooner after Hero than Hero did after Joker (which is entirely possible, I suppose), there's a good chance that a September Direct could happen a few weeks before Banjo is out. Would they want to go ahead and reveal a fourth character before the third is here? Then again, if it's someone more under-the-radar, maybe that'd work just fine.

Funny enough, the Alola League finals are starting on Sunday, September 8th. Wouldn't that be one hell of a coincidence?

Though it wouldn't have been planned on purpose or anything because that's not how Sakurai rolls, but you get the idea.
 
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Cyborg Sun

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Some speculation has popped up that we might get a Nintendo Direct earlier than expected, based on new developments like this:


One leading theory is that one could potentially happen in early-mid September rather than October, which could throw off some guesses about when a reveal could happen. Unless Banjo is coming significantly sooner after Hero than Hero did after Joker (which is entirely possible, I suppose), there's a good chance that a September Direct could happen a few weeks before Banjo is out. Would they want to go ahead and reveal a fourth character before the third is here? Then again, if it's someone more under-the-radar, maybe that'd work just fine.

Funny enough, the Alola League finals are starting on Sunday, September 8th. Wouldn't that be one hell of a coincidence?

Though it wouldn't have been planned on purpose or anything because that's not how Sakurai rolls, but you get the idea.
Considering they announced Joker one day before the game's release AND they announced both Hero and Banjo on the same day (despite one coming out way later than the other), a character reveal before Banjo's release isn't out of the realm of possibility.
 
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Cosmic77

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It's not much of a surprise, but the first finalist of the league has been leaked through a summary.

The battle between Ash and Guzma finally concludes! Which of them is going to continue to the finals and battle Gladion?! Guzma is exploding with rage at Golisopod, whose tendency to do as it pleases led to Scizor getting defeated. And as usual, Ash is battling fully powered, believing in his Pokémon! Guzma sees Kukui in Ash, which just irritates him even more. How will the battle end?! And we're also going to learn the secret behind why Guzma is said to be undefeated?!
 

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It's not much of a surprise, but the first finalist of the league has been leaked through a summary.

The battle between Ash and Guzma finally concludes! Which of them is going to continue to the finals and battle Gladion?! Guzma is exploding with rage at Golisopod, whose tendency to do as it pleases led to Scizor getting defeated. And as usual, Ash is battling fully powered, believing in his Pokémon! Guzma sees Kukui in Ash, which just irritates him even more. How will the battle end?! And we're also going to learn the secret behind why Guzma is said to be undefeated?!
The one who can't lose vs. the one who can't win a league
 

Delzethin

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Another scattered thought as Direct speculation has been making the rounds:

There've been a few theories over just what was up with Gruntilda in the Banjo trailer. While she appeared to be a stage hazard at first (or appears to be there to cause a stage hazard), I've seen some talk that maybe she's actually fought separately as a new boss. From there came the idea that a Boss Battles mode could come back from Brawl.

If that were to happen, it could actually help out our case a bit. Because odds are they wouldn't make just one new boss if such a mode was in development. And we just so happen to have one hell of a boss to offer:


Damn it, Smashboards, this is not the time for your image break shenanigans. Until it gets fixed, just imagine Ultra Necrozma is there.
 
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Cosmic77

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Pikachu is Ash's second Pokemon in the Guzma fight. Consider this a soft confirmation of Melmetal and Lycanroc in the finals.

Another scattered thought as Direct speculation has been making the rounds:

There've been a few theories over just what was up with Gruntilda in the Banjo trailer. While she appeared to be a stage hazard at first (or appears to be there to cause a stage hazard), I've seen some talk that maybe she's actually fought separately as a new boss. From there came the idea that a Boss Battles mode could come back from Brawl.

If that were to happen, it could actually help out our case a bit. Because odds are they wouldn't make just one new boss if such a mode was in development. And we just so happen to have one hell of a boss to offer:


Damn it, Smashboards, this is not the time for your image break shenanigans. Until it gets fixed, just imagine Ultra Necrozma is there.
I know people are eager to see Banjo get as much content as possible, but I don't think we're getting a boss. I mean, we can't even get items or ATs from DLC franchises, and those are way simplier than a boss.
 
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Cosmic77

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New scans showcasing a bit of the upcoming episodes, including a spoiler regarding Ash's team.
For those who can't see the pic.

It's a list of Pokemon for the remaining 3 contestants.

Ash: Pikachu, Torracat, Melmetal, Lycanroc
Gladion: Silvally, Lycanroc, Zoroark
Guzma: Golisopod

So this pretty much confirms that...
1. Ash beats Guzma
2. Meltan evolves
3. Melmetal and Lycanroc will be used against Gladion
4. Zoroark will be used.
5. Rowlet and Umbreon will not be used.

That does leave us with one question though. Since Umbreon is missing, that suggests a 3on3. Who will Ash's third Pokemon be? Pikachu or Torracat?
 

Delzethin

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For those who can't see the pic.

It's a list of Pokemon for the remaining 3 contestants.

Ash: Pikachu, Torracat, Melmetal, Lycanroc
Gladion: Silvally, Lycanroc, Zoroark
Guzma: Golisopod

So this pretty much confirms that...
1. Ash beats Guzma
2. Meltan evolves
3. Melmetal and Lycanroc will be used against Gladion
4. Zoroark will be used.
5. Rowlet and Umbreon will not be used.

That does leave us with one question though. Since Umbreon is missing, that suggests a 3on3. Who will Ash's third Pokemon be? Pikachu or Torracat?
Pikachu, probably. Hopefully Melmetal wouldn't steal our thunder in that scenario. Though considering it already got a featured match as a Meltan, we probably don't have too much to worry about.

Though...I do have one other theory about how this could go down, but it's a bit out there:

- Finals features Pikachu/Lycanroc/Torracat against Gladion's Lycanroc/Silvally/Zoroark, with Meltan sitting out. Ends with a Lycanroc mirror match that culminates in clashing Z-Moves as Ash's side uses Splintered Stormshards at the same time Gladion's uses Devastating Drake. Splintered Stormshards wins out and Ash finally wins a League that isn't a weird spinoff one like the Orange Islands was.

- A few hours later, before the awards ceremony begins, Team Rocket springs into action with a new scheme to seize the 'mons of the League participants--something they talked about wanting to do a couple episodes ago as a way to prove they've still got it. Several of Ash's party members get captured, including Pikachu and Rowlet. This is where the other Meltan come in and trigger an evolution for Ash's Meltan, and the now-Melmetal gets a focus as it foils Team Rocket's plans and rescues everyone, including its buddy.

- Crisis now averted, the awards ceremony happens for real, followed by Ash's exhibition match against Kukui. Melmetal gets significant screen time, Ash's Torracat faces his rival one last time, and Ash's Pikanium Z crystal transforms just in time to deal a finishing blow that makes the crowd go wild.

This turn of events would help a few things go more smoothly. While the anime is no stranger to deus ex machinae, it's been shying away from having major League-related battles be won by mid-battle evolutions for the past couple regions, so having Meltan's evolution be what helps it defeat Team Rocket lets it still play an important part in the story arc without cheapening the finals. I think they'll want 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt to be used one more time, especially since Gladion has mentioned wanting to see it in action, but having a random crystal transformation be the reason Ash wins the League would also feel cheap, so having it happen during thug finals where Ash and Kukui are just putting on a show for the audience and the outcome doesn't really matter would work better.

That said, it ain't a perfect theory. Especially since Inferno Overdrive needs to get used at least once or else there'd be no point in Ash getting a Firium crystal, and if it doesn't happen next episode against Guzma then it needs to happen somewhere.

I know people are eager to see Banjo get as much content as possible, but I don't think we're getting a boss. I mean, we can't even get items or ATs from DLC franchises, and those are way simplier than a boss.
Eh, I was just throwing the idea out there. I think Gruntilda's probably just a stage hazard, but we're better off considering multiple possible outcomes, you know?

On that note, maybe a reveal close to Gen 8 could still work for us from a timing standpoint. While Lycanroc wouldn't be as inherently relevant as someone from Gen 8, the latter were (probably) too far away when this wave was decided on, and Nintendo would (probably) still be able to say "here's this new Pokémon character, and if you're interested you can also find it in Sword and Shield". Especially if Gen 8 does what previous generations have done with returning 'mons with conditionally obtainable forms and makes it less of a hassle to get the form you want.
 
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Cosmic77

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Can't remember if this has been brought up, but we might be able to tell who the winner of the league is by the next episode.

Ash revieved a Fireium Z and has not used it a single time. If Torracat fails to use it in this current battle, and if Pikachu is one of the three Pokemon shown battling Gladion in the preview, then that means that Torracat would have to use it when it faces Kukui.
 

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So, how's everyone enjoying Pokémon Masters so far? I haven't had the chance to play it yet because I've been preoccupied with other things, but I have heard Olivia seems to be exactly as powerful as we'd thought, so there's that!

Also, voice actors have been coming out of the woodworks.


Those of you who play Fire Emblem Heroes, you may recognize Paulo's VA as the guy who does Wolt's voice.


And in other news:


Gamestop's running a promo for all four Alola games later this year. Nice to see the 3DS is still getting out and doing stuff in its retirement, eh?
 

RandomAce

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So, how's everyone enjoying Pokémon Masters so far? I haven't had the chance to play it yet because I've been preoccupied with other things, but I have heard Olivia seems to be exactly as powerful as we'd thought, so there's that!

Also, voice actors have been coming out of the woodworks.


Those of you who play Fire Emblem Heroes, you may recognize Paulo's VA as the guy who does Wolt's voice.
I forgot the game came out today.

I’m interested to see how Midday is in this game. Considering how Midnight is apparently notably better than the version in Sun and Moon, I’m hoping Midday can hold up.

And hopefully Dusk is also in. Please...

EDIT: There are a lot of notable characters that aren’t available. Seems like they are planning to update the game constantly with new characters and Pokémon overtime, considering that some of the trainers they advertised aren’t in yet.

As for me, sadly Midday isn’t in, but hopefully Kukui releases soon. Maybe Paulo could be available in a later event.

And in other news:


Gamestop's running a promo for all four Alola games later this year. Nice to see the 3DS is still getting out and doing stuff in its retirement, eh?
It may be small, but it still shows that Pokémon from Sun and Moon is still marketable despite a new generation coming soon.
 
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Cosmic77

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If this is translated correctly, the finals will be one episode long. On top of squeezing Meltan's evolution, a 3on3 battle, and potentially Team Rocket all together in one episode, it's being written by the person who gave us the Rowlet/Decidueye battle that everyone hated.


That's...discouraging.
 
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Delzethin

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If this is translated correctly, the finals will be one episode long. On top of squeezing Meltan's evolution, a 3on3 battle, and potentially Team Rocket all together in one episode, it's being written by the person who gave us the Rowlet/Decidueye battle that everyone hated.


That's...discouraging.
Counterpoint: The episode airing tomorrow only has to finish the second half of the fight with Guzma, something that could get wrapped up in 10 minutes or so. Considering the circumstances, they could take care of Meltan's evolution and any pre-finals stuff in the time left over, then have the next episode be devoted entirely to the finals. Alternatively, Meltan's evolution might not happen until the episode after the finals during whatever Team Rocket has planned.

The choice of writer, though...yeah, that's concerning. Hopefully he doesn't feel the need to have the fight determined by a last second twist or something. Subverting your audience's expectations can come off really shallow if you haven't properly foreshadowed it. Then again, maybe he's just been the fall guy for executives forcing creative decisions onto the writers...


Meanwhile, it turns out Japan is getting in on the sudden promos for the Alola games.


Wonder what's going on with that?
 
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RandomAce

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Counterpoint: The episode airing tomorrow only has to finish the second half of the fight with Guzma, something that could get wrapped up in 10 minutes or so. Considering the circumstances, they could take care of Meltan's evolution and any pre-finals stuff in the time left over, then have the next episode be devoted entirely to the finals. Alternatively, Meltan's evolution might not happen until the episode after the finals during whatever Team Rocket has planned.

The choice of writer, though...yeah, that's concerning. Hopefully he doesn't feel the need to have the fight determined by a last second twist or something. Subverting your audience's expectations can come off really shallow if you haven't properly foreshadowed it.


Meanwhile, it turns out Japan is getting in on the sudden promos for the Alola games.


Wonder what's going on with that?
Seems like they’re trying to cash in on Sun and Moon before they head into the Sword and Shield.

Not sure why they waited until nearly three months before their release, but it is what it is.

If this is translated correctly, the finals will be one episode long. On top of squeezing Meltan's evolution, a 3on3 battle, and potentially Team Rocket all together in one episode, it's being written by the person who gave us the Rowlet/Decidueye battle that everyone hated.


That's...discouraging.
Hopefully not. The second part of Ash vs Guzma’s semifinals should be finished around halfway through the next episode in a similar manner to Kukui’s vs Gladion’s battle so it can at least give more time to build up to the finals if the case of the finals being one episode is true.

Despite this, I wouldn’t really understand why they would decide to make the most important battle with the longest teams be one episode when previous battles were two parters. Unless Ash loses and it ends up being Gladion vs Guzma.

Lycanroc related, I feel that after all the building up that Ash’s Lycanroc did during the anime and growing over time, the build up they’re putting by having Lycanroc being the only Pokémon on Ash’s team not be used in the league, and the rivalry that goes well between Ash, Gladion, and their Lycanrocs along with Midnight’s sorta new ability that could create new stakes... The last thing I need is for such potential to be wasted and be left with something that ends up either feeling cheap, unenjoyable, or just subpar.
 

Cosmic77

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Got a summary for the episode containing the Alola League finals.

On the eve of the finals, Professor Oak and Ash's mom came rushing over from the Kanto region in order to cheer Ash on, which has made his desire to win even stronger. But just then, something strange happens to his Meltan?! Meanwhile, Gladion's fighting sprit burns with quiet passion as he's being supported by Lillie and Lusamine. And then the finals begin! This is a fully powered battle between the ultimate rivals, one which either of them could realistically win! And the winner of it will become the first ever champion of the Alola Pokémon League!!

After all this time, Ash's mom and Professor Oak have traveled to cheer Ash on in a Pokemon League.
 
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RileyXY1

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Got a summary for the episode containing the Alola League finals. It's got a series first in it.

On the eve of the finals, Professor Oak and Ash's mom came rushing over from the Kanto region in order to cheer Ash on, which has made his desire to win even stronger. But just then, something strange happens to his Meltan?! Meanwhile, Gladion's fighting sprit burns with quiet passion as he's being supported by Lillie and Lusamine. And then the finals begin! This is a fully powered battle between the ultimate rivals, one which either of them could realistically win! And the winner of it will become the first ever champion of the Alola Pokémon League!!

For the first time in the series, Ash's mom and Professor Oak have traveled to cheer Ash on in a Pokemon League.
This is not true, considering that Delia and Professor Oak did cheer Ash on in person during the Johto League.
 

RandomAce

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Got a summary for the episode containing the Alola League finals.

On the eve of the finals, Professor Oak and Ash's mom came rushing over from the Kanto region in order to cheer Ash on, which has made his desire to win even stronger. But just then, something strange happens to his Meltan?! Meanwhile, Gladion's fighting sprit burns with quiet passion as he's being supported by Lillie and Lusamine. And then the finals begin! This is a fully powered battle between the ultimate rivals, one which either of them could realistically win! And the winner of it will become the first ever champion of the Alola Pokémon League!!

After all this time, Ash's mom and Professor Oak have traveled to cheer Ash on in a Pokemon League.
So it is Ash vs Gladion. At least that’s confirmed!

A couple things to know. It seems that whatever is happening to Meltan and potentially Team Rocket takes place before the finals, so Melmetal is very likely to be apart of Ash’s Final Team, and the finals most likely will be uninterrupted. Secondly, seems like my theory of Dusk Lycanroc and Midnight Lycanroc going into their wild state (or whatever Red eyed thing Midnight did) could potentially be apart of the main climax of this battle, considering how fired up Ash and Gladion seem to be in the summary, it fits quite well.

As long as everything isn’t rushed and the battle is as fleshed out as possible, hopefully this can be a battle to remember.
 
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Delzethin

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The last semifinal episode aired overnight. And based on the preview we got of the finals next week...I think we're about to get the climactic Lycanroc vs. Lycanroc showdown we've been hoping for.


Based on the preview, Ash's Meltan is evolving the night before the match, meaning a mid-battle evolution is off the table. And based on other preview images, Ash is leading with Melmetal while Gladion opens with Silvally.



In addition to leads, this one also confirms it's a 3v3 fight, though we'd pieced that together already.

There're also clips of Pikachu against Silvally and Pikachu against what looks to be Gladion's Lycanroc...except not all is as it seems, because the only attack "Midnight" uses is very clearly Night Daze.



Guess I was wrong about Gladion pulling something underhanded like that, eh? Pikachu vs. Zoroark is going to be the fight's second act. Which leaves the two Lycanrocs to face each other as their trainers' final combatants.

But notice how neither of them show up in the preview? I can't help but think it means this battle's going to be a two-parter, with this episode covering Meltan's evolution, pre-battle interactions (apparently Ash's mom and Professor Oak are flying in to watch the finals) and the first half of the actual match, with most of the following episode devoted to the Lycanrocs.

Get hyped, guys. Responsibly, of course.


And if that wasn't enough, we also got a tease for the Gen 8 anime...and it's going in a bit of a different direction.



A saga spanning every region seen so far, featuring 'mons from every generation? Call me naive, but that almost sounds like some kind of pro circuit. Something for, say, League champions?

Is Ash truly about to pull off something we've been waiting to see happen since we were kids?
 
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Cosmic77

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A saga spanning every region seen so far, featuring 'mons from every generation? Call me naive, but that almost sounds like some kind of pro circuit. Something for, say, League champions?

Is Ash truly about to pull off something we've been waiting to see happen since we were kids?
As excited as I am about Ash potentially winning a league, the direction this SwSh anime is going in sounds disappointing. I wanted to see a series that focuses on Galar alone, not all eight regions.
 

RandomAce

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As excited as I am about Ash potentially winning a league, the direction this SwSh anime is going in sounds disappointing. I wanted to see a series that focuses on Galar alone, not all eight regions.
I’m pretty stoked about this. I’m hoping that trainers from past games show up and maybe participate in a Champion League ala Pokémon Masters. Maybe even the male protagonists can finally show up for once in the anime.

Galar would probably get a lot of screen time, or even the most of the other regions and probably will be the region Ash’s journey will be based on, but just without the filler episodes that many of the previous series had.
 

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As excited as I am about Ash potentially winning a league, the direction this SwSh anime is going in sounds disappointing. I wanted to see a series that focuses on Galar alone, not all eight regions.
With the (almost non-existent) info we have on it right now, I wouldn't think much about it until we know more. I see a lot of people jumping the gun and assuming haha. I'm pretty sure Galar will get the most focus whatever the case will be, they'd want to promote Sword/Shield after all.
 

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I’m pretty stoked about this. I’m hoping that trainers from past games show up and maybe participate in a Champion League ala Pokémon Masters. Maybe even the male protagonists can finally show up for once in the anime.

Galar would probably get a lot of screen time, or even the most of the other regions and probably will be the region Ash’s journey will be based on, but just without the filler episodes that many of the previous series had.
It just feels like nostalgia pandering to me. Kanto-Alola have already gotten a series, so I don't see the point in dedicating an anime to all seven of them in addition to Galar. I have no idea what the heck they're doing with Ash now, but if it doesn't involve him or at least an equivalent to him traveling through Galar for a majority of the anime, then SwSh really got the short end of the stick.

This isn't something I want to watch for three years. Maybe a few weeks, but 140+ episodes where we juggle dozens of old characters that we've already met sounds grueling.

With the (almost non-existent) info we have on it right now, I wouldn't think much about it until we know more. I see a lot of people jumping the gun and assuming haha. I'm pretty sure Galar will get the most focus whatever the case will be, they'd want to promote Sword/Shield after all.
Whatever this is, I just hope it ends up being more traditional than they're making it out to be. I'd hate for them to scrap the normal "Let's focus on the newest region" anime and move to some hodgepodge where Sword and Shield shares the spotlight with seven other regions, each with their own cast of characters.
 

RileyXY1

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The only way I can see this working without either giving Galar the short end of the stick or rebooting the story entirely is if this new anime saga is exactly like SM, except with more frequent field trips to other regions. I would largely prefer this route anyways.
 

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Well... it seems Nintendo may have accidentally leaked fighter #4:

Edit: It's not showing for some reason.

Honestly, while i know nothing about SNK games other than King of Fighters, i'm not too dissapointed at the news. I just hope the character is interesting enough.
But at this point i don't think Lycanroc would be left for last at all. Unless they wrote that wrong (which i highly doubt they'd put a corporations name like that and have it be a mistake of company) we may be getting a third party only Fighter's pass after all.

https://www.nintendo.co.uk/DLC/Challenger-Pack-4-1519368.html
As of now it still says SNK at the bottom.
 
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Guynamednelson

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Well... it seems Nintendo may have accidentally leaked fighter #4:

Edit: It's not showing for some reason.

Honestly, while i know nothing about SNK games other than King of Fighters, i'm not too dissapointed at the news. I just hope the character is interesting enough.
But at this point i don't think Lycanroc would be left for last at all. Unless they wrote that wrong (which i highly doubt they'd put a corporations name like that and have it be a mistake of company) we may be getting a third party only Fighter's pass after all.

https://www.nintendo.co.uk/DLC/Challenger-Pack-4-1519368.html
As of now it still says SNK at the bottom.
I'd love it if they referenced the Kencineroar trailer with Terry and Lycanroc due to Terry being nicknamed "The Legendary Hungry Wolf".
 

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Well... it seems Nintendo may have accidentally leaked fighter #4:

Edit: It's not showing for some reason.

Honestly, while i know nothing about SNK games other than King of Fighters, i'm not too dissapointed at the news. I just hope the character is interesting enough.
But at this point i don't think Lycanroc would be left for last at all. Unless they wrote that wrong (which i highly doubt they'd put a corporations name like that and have it be a mistake of company) we may be getting a third party only Fighter's pass after all.

https://www.nintendo.co.uk/DLC/Challenger-Pack-4-1519368.html
As of now it still says SNK at the bottom.
While it might not mean too much, The file sizes of the DLC characters match up with the file size for the Miss X DLC pack for SNK Heroines. This, combined with the fact that this challenger pack solely attributes copyright to SNK (when every other DLC fighter has given copyright to all companies involved in Smash) leads me to believe this is simply an error on behalf of Nintendo of Europe instead of a direct leak.

EDIT: The copyright for Challenger Pack #4 also contains an "all rights reserved". This is done for the DLC of SNK Heroines, but not for Super Smash Bros. In general, putting an "all rights reserved" is a relatively uncommon occurrence in the copyright world, so seeing one all of a sudden put with Smash would be weird.
 
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Delzethin

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Hoo boy. Lot of tension in the air in the Smash community.


Well... it seems Nintendo may have accidentally leaked fighter #4:

Edit: It's not showing for some reason.

Honestly, while i know nothing about SNK games other than King of Fighters, i'm not too dissapointed at the news. I just hope the character is interesting enough.
But at this point i don't think Lycanroc would be left for last at all. Unless they wrote that wrong (which i highly doubt they'd put a corporations name like that and have it be a mistake of company) we may be getting a third party only Fighter's pass after all.

https://www.nintendo.co.uk/DLC/Challenger-Pack-4-1519368.html
As of now it still says SNK at the bottom.
It turns out things may not be so clear-cut, as Garteam Garteam beat me to pointing out.

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/cyepl9/the_latest_snk_leak_may_actually_just_be_a_mix_up/?amp;amp;utm_source=share

The copyright listing for the page is identical to that of other SNK pages, but not other Smash DLC pages. Pack #5 lists copyrights for every company currently involved in Ultimate, even.

Yet...that itself doesn't debunk this. Pack #2's page only has copyrights listed for Square-Enix and its subsidiaries involved in Dragon Quest, yet Pack #1 lists all companies involved and not Just Atlus/Sega.

Which means we're in a situation where we legitimately cannot tell if this is a leak, a mistake, or something more complicated. If this is an accident, how would a page for Smash have been updated in a way that slid in copyright details for the wrong game? If it's a leak, why would the page have been updated with just copyrights and not details on the actual character? And why would it have been done an unknown number of days before the next reveal happens? Even if it was meant to be kept secret, wouldn't they have known the risks involved?

I have no clue what to make of this, and it has me on edge...

That said, if it's legit...there are far reaching implications that'd harm more than just us.

Because it might mean every Nintendo character will be snubbed from here on out. That Smash's identity will, potentially, have truly changed, from a crossover of Nintendo's past and present with a few guests joining in to a crossover of all gaming with Nintendo's own stable no longer invited.

Smash has always been more than just a crossover fighter, it's been chance for Nintendo's unsung heroes to finally be recognized. If it weren't for that, characters like Captain Falcon, Ness, the Ice Climbers, Marth, Pit, Shulk, and so many others would never have been so well-known and beloved. And yet, we may be witnessing a change that slams the door shut on any character who would ever wish to follow in their footsteps.

As someone who has spent my entire life on the outside looking in, someone who was repeatedly denied even a chance to prove my worth in various things because the people invovled had already decided I wasn't worth their time...this makes me uncomfortable on a personal level. And it can't be just me who experienced these things; what of all the other underdogs out there? How utterly demoralizing would it be for them as well if Smash suddenly stopped caring about characters in their situation too?

To say no less of the fact all the people who jumped to conclusions on mistaken information, who let their confirmation biases run wild to the point of attacking anyone who disagreed, would get their way. We already have such a widespread problem in this community of giving bad behavior a free pass if the perpetrators are "winners", often with onlookers joining in so they can "win" too at others' expense, and it'd only amplify if these events were to happen.

This all just...doesn't bode well. We need something to happen that defies the narrative. Because as-is, it's only going to be a catalyst for this community's worst demons.
 
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LukeRNG

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Hoo boy. Lot of tension in the air in the Smash community.



It turns out things may not be so clear-cut, as Garteam Garteam beat me to pointing out.

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/cyepl9/the_latest_snk_leak_may_actually_just_be_a_mix_up/?amp;amp;utm_source=share

The copyright listing for the page is identical to that of other SNK pages, but not other Smash DLC pages. Pack #5 lists copyrights for every company currently involved in Ultimate, even.

Yet...that itself doesn't debunk this. Pack #2's page only has copyrights listed for Square-Enix and its subsidiaries involved in Dragon Quest, yet Pack #1 lists all companies involved and not Just Atlus/Sega.

Which means we're in a situation where we legitimately cannot tell if this is a leak, a mistake, or something more complicated. If this is an accident, how would a page for Smash have been updated in a way that slid in copyright details for the wrong game? If it's a leak, why would the page have been updated with just copyrights and not details on the actual character? And why would it have been done an unknown number of days before the next reveal happens? Even if it was meant to be kept secret, wouldn't they have known the risks involved?

I have no clue what to make of this, and it has me on edge...

That said, if it's legit...there are far reaching implications that'd harm more than just us.

Because it might mean every Nintendo character will be snubbed from here on out. That Smash's identity will, potentially, have truly changed, from a crossover of Nintendo's past and present with a few guests joining in to a crossover of all gaming with Nintendo's own stable no longer invited.

Smash has always been more than just a crossover fighter, it's been chance for Nintendo's unsung heroes to finally be recognized. If it weren't for that, characters like Captain Falcon, Ness, the Ice Climbers, Marth, Pit, Shulk, and so many others would never have been so well-known and beloved. And yet, we may be witnessing a change that slams the door shut on any character who would ever wish to follow in their footsteps.

As someone who has spent my entire life on the outside looking in, someone who was repeatedly denied even a chance to prove my worth in various things because the people invovled had already decided I wasn't worth their time...this makes me uncomfortable on a personal level. And it can't be just me who experienced these things; what of all the other underdogs out there? How utterly demoralizing would it be for them as well if Smash suddenly stopped caring about characters in their situation too?

To say no less of the fact all the people who jumped to conclusions on mistaken information, who let their confirmation biases run wild to the point of attacking anyone who disagreed, would get their way. We already have such a widespread problem in this community of giving bad behavior a free pass if the perpetrators are "winners", often with onlookers joining in so they can "win" too at others' expense, and it'd only amplify if these events were to happen.

This all just...doesn't bode well. We need something to happen that defies the narrative. Because as-is, it's only going to be a catalyst for this community's worst demons.
At this point a dlc pass with only 1st party characters would have to come to calm people down, but given how Sakurai seems physically tired of working hard and how often he puts his health at risk (and apparently not having enough funds to make a pre-recorded direct with the hero hence why the livestream format), i'd say this dlc pass is the last of smash ultimate we'll get.

Though i do feel the series may come back to format in the next game where there will be far less 3rd party characters and less characters in general. Ultimate is a big culmination in gaming history and i think they want to capitilize on it as much as possible with the whole ''Everyone is here''. It'd be impossible to top Ultimate's success and landmark, so going back would make the most sense.
 

RileyXY1

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Messages
2,320
At this point a dlc pass with only 1st party characters would have to come to calm people down, but given how Sakurai seems physically tired of working hard and how often he puts his health at risk (and apparently not having enough funds to make a pre-recorded direct with the hero hence why the livestream format), i'd say this dlc pass is the last of smash ultimate we'll get.

Though i do feel the series may come back to format in the next game where there will be far less 3rd party characters and less characters in general. Ultimate is a big culmination in gaming history and i think they want to capitilize on it as much as possible with the whole ''Everyone is here''. It'd be impossible to top Ultimate's success and landmark, so going back would make the most sense.
Sakurai is also a known workaholic, even working through tendinitis during Smash 4's development.
 

Delzethin

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At this point a dlc pass with only 1st party characters would have to come to calm people down, but given how Sakurai seems physically tired of working hard and how often he puts his health at risk (and apparently not having enough funds to make a pre-recorded direct with the hero hence why the livestream format), i'd say this dlc pass is the last of smash ultimate we'll get.

Though i do feel the series may come back to format in the next game where there will be far less 3rd party characters and less characters in general. Ultimate is a big culmination in gaming history and i think they want to capitilize on it as much as possible with the whole ''Everyone is here''. It'd be impossible to top Ultimate's success and landmark, so going back would make the most sense.
I don't know what to think of the odds of a 2nd season being entirely first party. I think it's more of something the community has brought up in a few places to "balance" what they expect from the current wave. Hard to say if anything would change...and I don't think it'd be worth putting our faith in.

Especially not us in particular; after this wave it'll be too late no matter what. We'd be little more than a footnote in Smash history, if not a punchline.

That said, I don't think the talk of Sakurai's workload or even the budget are red flags on their own. Sakurai overworks himself even when he doesn't need to, out of passion not obligation, and a Season 2 wouldn't make that any worse on its own. Doesn't hurt that we know from Smash 4's DLC run that there was less to get done and he outright enjoyed the more laid back pace, at least according to a couple of his Famitsu articles. And the talk of going over budget just means they overdid it on this wave--if they greenlit a second one they'd set up a new budget specifically for it. They don't have a single pool of funds for all expenses; it wouldn't make any sense for a project this big.

Then again, maybe I just jinxed it all by saying this.

I agree that Smash 6, whenever it happens, will have to make a lot of cuts. It'll be a damn murderers' row...


Meanwhile, because the topic shifted before I got to respond to this:

It just feels like nostalgia pandering to me. Kanto-Alola have already gotten a series, so I don't see the point in dedicating an anime to all seven of them in addition to Galar. I have no idea what the heck they're doing with Ash now, but if it doesn't involve him or at least an equivalent to him traveling through Galar for a majority of the anime, then SwSh really got the short end of the stick.

This isn't something I want to watch for three years. Maybe a few weeks, but 140+ episodes where we juggle dozens of old characters that we've already met sounds grueling.

Whatever this is, I just hope it ends up being more traditional than they're making it out to be. I'd hate for them to scrap the normal "Let's focus on the newest region" anime and move to some hodgepodge where Sword and Shield shares the spotlight with seven other regions, each with their own cast of characters.
They could have the new League be centralized in Galar and just travel to other regions for events every now and then. It'd let them feature the Galar region as a whole while still fitting the criteria they revealed.
 

Cyborg Sun

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Messages
45
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Hoo boy. Lot of tension in the air in the Smash community.



It turns out things may not be so clear-cut, as Garteam Garteam beat me to pointing out.

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/cyepl9/the_latest_snk_leak_may_actually_just_be_a_mix_up/?amp;amp;utm_source=share

The copyright listing for the page is identical to that of other SNK pages, but not other Smash DLC pages. Pack #5 lists copyrights for every company currently involved in Ultimate, even.

Yet...that itself doesn't debunk this. Pack #2's page only has copyrights listed for Square-Enix and its subsidiaries involved in Dragon Quest, yet Pack #1 lists all companies involved and not Just Atlus/Sega.

Which means we're in a situation where we legitimately cannot tell if this is a leak, a mistake, or something more complicated. If this is an accident, how would a page for Smash have been updated in a way that slid in copyright details for the wrong game? If it's a leak, why would the page have been updated with just copyrights and not details on the actual character? And why would it have been done an unknown number of days before the next reveal happens? Even if it was meant to be kept secret, wouldn't they have known the risks involved?

I have no clue what to make of this, and it has me on edge...

That said, if it's legit...there are far reaching implications that'd harm more than just us.

Because it might mean every Nintendo character will be snubbed from here on out. That Smash's identity will, potentially, have truly changed, from a crossover of Nintendo's past and present with a few guests joining in to a crossover of all gaming with Nintendo's own stable no longer invited.

Smash has always been more than just a crossover fighter, it's been chance for Nintendo's unsung heroes to finally be recognized. If it weren't for that, characters like Captain Falcon, Ness, the Ice Climbers, Marth, Pit, Shulk, and so many others would never have been so well-known and beloved. And yet, we may be witnessing a change that slams the door shut on any character who would ever wish to follow in their footsteps.

As someone who has spent my entire life on the outside looking in, someone who was repeatedly denied even a chance to prove my worth in various things because the people invovled had already decided I wasn't worth their time...this makes me uncomfortable on a personal level. And it can't be just me who experienced these things; what of all the other underdogs out there? How utterly demoralizing would it be for them as well if Smash suddenly stopped caring about characters in their situation too?

To say no less of the fact all the people who jumped to conclusions on mistaken information, who let their confirmation biases run wild to the point of attacking anyone who disagreed, would get their way. We already have such a widespread problem in this community of giving bad behavior a free pass if the perpetrators are "winners", often with onlookers joining in so they can "win" too at others' expense, and it'd only amplify if these events were to happen.

This all just...doesn't bode well. We need something to happen that defies the narrative. Because as-is, it's only going to be a catalyst for this community's worst demons.
Look, I get why you're worried. But, let me assure you, just because a lineup of DLC just so happens to have a ton of third parties, does not mean smaller Nintendo characters will just get snubbed in future games or even future DLC out of some strange principal. As for the effects on the community... yeah, I don't think the dev team cares about our petty bickering, heh. As long as there are leaks and supposed patterns, there will always be discourse. Just an unfortunate side affect of such a massive crossover, you know? I will admit, however, I was almost always one to watch from the sidelines, so I unfortunately can't relate to you on a deeper level...
 
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Cosmic77

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I've kinda given up on understanding what the Smash community gets out of third-parties. We started the DLC with people believing we'd get some of the biggest, most-hype faces in gaming, like Crash or even Steve. Now everyone is hyped because we're getting a character they're not familiar with and they're excited to learn more about them.

Meanwhile, half of the Nintendo characters people bring up just elicit a groan from everyone, like adding yet another Pokemon or Mario character would be such a boring addition when they could get a character from the franchise they never even played a single game from.

I dunno. Sorry to any SNK fans if I'm being a debbie downer. I really just need a break from today. Between this and the anime, I'm exhausted.

Still not completely giving up on first-party though. If Bayonetta was revealed before Corrin in Smash 4, I'm sure people would've thought you were crazy for thinking the last unique fighter would be from Nintendo.
 
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Cyborg Sun

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I've kinda given up on understanding what the Smash community gets out of third-parties. We started the DLC with people believing we'd get some of the biggest, most-hype faces in gaming, like Crash or even Steve. Now everyone is hyped because we're getting a character they're not familiar with and they're excited to learn more about them.

Meanwhile, half of the Nintendo characters people bring up just elicit a groan from everyone, like adding yet another Pokemon or Mario character would be such a boring addition when they could get a character from the franchise they never even played a single game from.

I dunno. Sorry to any SNK fans if I'm being a debbie downer. I really just need a break from today. Between this and the anime, I'm exhausted.

Still not completely giving up on first-party though. If Bayonetta was revealed before Corrin in Smash 4, I'm sure people would've thought you were crazy for thinking the last unique fighter would be from Nintendo.
I can imagine part of the reason people get hyped over third parties is because it simply increases the "crossover potential" of the game. Like, let's say they add Chell from Portal. Remember, this isn't just "Portal vs. Nintendo", this is "Portal vs. Nintendo vs. Metal Gear vs. Mega Man vs. Sonic vs. Street Fighter vs. Castlevainia vs. Final Fantasy VII". I mean, you've gotta admit, seeing all these companies come together is pretty spectacular. It's the reason I not only personally love third parties, but have personally loved MUGEN since childhood. People just love crossovers, as long as they're done well.

...But yeah, I'm still holding out for a first party. Doom-and-gloom just doesn't suit me.
 

Guynamednelson

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I do like SNK, but I understand why this addition wouldn't appeal to everyone. You can't go LOL NO ONE WANTS ANY MORE NINTENDO CHARACTERS THEY'RE ALL NICHE GARBAGE while supporting the addition of a rep from a company whose games only sell a few hundred thousand at best.
 

Garteam

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Here's an interesting quirk of the copyright that makes me think this is a minor mistake and not a legitimate leak.

On the Challenger's Pack #4 description, it says ©SNK Corporation All Rights Reserved. Now, this may seem like standard legal jargon, but the All Rights Reserved is actually noteworthy. Basically, stating "All Rights Reserved" is actually rather unnecessary. It's a leftover from a time where you had to actively proclaim your copyright or risk losing it. Nowadays, basically every country has shifted to granting this ownership of copyright as a default to artists and media companies, making "all rights reserved" largely redundant. A handful companies still use out of tradition, but it's a very optional thing.

So... what's this all have to do with Smash Bros? Well, Smash Bros doesn't use "all rights reserved" anywhere within its copyright. This alone doesn't mean much, as Nintendo could've included it as that's the way that SNK expresses their ownership. However, things get complicated when Hero is factored in. Hero's copyright information solely lists companies who have ownership of the Dragon Quest series (Square-Enix, Bird Studio, etc.) with no mention of Nintendo, HAL, etc. However, this claim of Hero's copyright is actually different than the way Dragon Quest's copyright is usually expressed, as that usually includes an All Rights Reserved.

For whatever reason, Smash Bros tends to forego "All Rights Reserved" in its copyrights, even when discussing franchises which traditionally utilize this language. This really hints this copyright was done by a legal team separate from the one involved in Smash Bros, thusly meaning that the SNK copyright of Challenger pack #4 was more likely misattributed than properly leaked.

TL;DR: The copyright for Challenger Pack #4 is mismatched with the rest of Smash's copyright formatting wise, so its probably not real.
 
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Guynamednelson

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I don't know what to think of the odds of a 2nd season being entirely first party. I think it's more of something the community has brought up in a few places to "balance" what they expect from the current wave.
I don't think it's the concept of a Nintendo pass that's about balance as it is some of their choices. For example, the "no spirit=DLC" crowd focusing way more on Porky than Lycanroc even though the state of Ultimate's content is more suited for adding another Gen 7 Pokemon than another Earthboud rep in the pass.
 

Garteam

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I don't think it's the concept of a Nintendo pass that's about balance as it is some of their choices. For example, the "no spirit=DLC" crowd focusing way more on Porky than Lycanroc even though the state of Ultimate's content is more suited for adding another Gen 7 Pokemon than another Earthboud rep in the pass.
IMO, the only 1st Party I've really ever seen really get a fair shake among "Spirits deconfirm" die-hards is Edelgard and that's only because she could "be a promotional pick". I have seen some Porky fans use his current absence as evidence he is planned for DLC and was thus intentionally left out, but a lot people have shrugged this off with "This pack is 3rd parties only" or "Porky can't sell anything" even though both are terrible arguments.

Regardless, I'm really not looking forward to Fighter's Pack #4, as now it's basically guaranteed that the community will be upset either because:

1. the character doesn't fit the leak and people feel like their "expectations" were betrayed (similar to what happened with the Grinch leak)
or
2. the character does fit the leak and people are disappointed by their general obscurity as a character.
 
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