Day, Night, and Dusk - Lycanroc for Smash Bros. Ultimate

Cosmic77

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It really does seem like the apparent Pokémon choice for Ultimate came down to two who are only side characters in the anime (and that's assuming Hau's Dartrix actually evolves, which it probably will) despite Sakurai playing up how important having prominent roles in media and such is back during Smash 4's development. So did his mindset shift in the time since, deciding that being a starter matter more than all else? Or did something else happen?

Like, say, not being able to pick the character who held the same role as Greninja before it and offered unique abilities and a completely untapped element...because the form that was going to get the most focus was still almost a year away from being revealed, its design could still get changed up before then, and they couldn't afford to delay development in order to wait until it was set in stone?

Sure, it's just a theory, but it would line up with what we know of the development process now. And it raises another question: Would they jump at the chance to revisit a concept they were forced to shelve before once DLC rolled around if the window of opportunity was still there?
Having Torracat evolve in the time travel episode would've been brilliant writing, but I'm not ruling Incineroar out just yet. Actually, I'm a little surprised the league is starting so early. Makes me think we could get about ten or more league episodes, and there's no telling what will happen during that time. The sheer number of competitors and Ash's small team are telling me a lot of significant things could happen.

But I am interested to see where they go with Lycanroc. Not gonna lie, it feels it hasn't been nearly as prominent after the battle with Nanu. I honestly don't know if there's gonna be more significant character development, especially with Rowlet, Torracat, their rivals, and the gazillions of other trainers hogging the spotlight.
 

Delzethin

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You know what a synonym for "twilight" is, right?
Alright, before we jump to conclusions, we need to remember the big picture and work from there. We're going to see a lot of knee-jerk reactions if this image spreads, with all kinds of people insisting it points to all kinds of characters. We need to be careful here, because freaking out would accomplish nothing.

That said...while the word "Twilight" in there is notable, the fact that it's apparently tied to Brave's stage has me...doubtful that it means much for us.

We have quite a bit of evidence pointing toward Erdrick already, including the codename "Brave" being the class title of a lot of DQ heroes, and this new data doesn't diminish that. So the first question to ask is: Is there anywhere in the Dragon Quest Series, particularly DQIII, that has ties to twilight or sunset? We need to address the elephant in the room first, and even beyond that, it'd be...difficult to connect the word "Brave" to any Lycanroc form, since they're more known for other key things.

Also worth asking is would any potential Lycanroc stage even involve twilight? We've been speculating places like Aether Paradise or Vast Poni Canyon or Ultra Space, locales that, while memorable, aren't exactly known for sunset. We saw with Mementos that the stage code tends to be more straightforward and doesn't allude to the character's identity beyond the game they're both from, so unless that changed, this only tells us something about the stage itself.

I suppose the main thing this tells us is that Brave is likely coming next. Whether this affects the odds of two reveals in the next couple weeks or not...I don't know.

We'll see people insisting every reveal afterward has to be even wilder, though. Don't buy into it, because we saw with Smash 4's DLC that Sakurai isn't trying to escalate hype. The team isn't choosing characters just so the reveal cycle can be a spectacle to watch, unlike what...quite a bit of the community seems to be expecting now. Notice how, according to the person in that screencap, talk surrounding the data has focused on wild third party picks and hasn't even bothered looking at any Nintendo characters?

--------------------------------------------------

In other news, I'm considering one more possible change to the commissioned moveset. Specifically, altering Accelerock:

Currently: Zips forward after a short delay, Fox Illusion-style but with less distance covered. Deals multiple hits to anyone it catches, activating a fury state and dealing minor enough knockback to allow followups up until high percents. Does not go into freefall if it hits, but does if it misses, and is unsafe on block. Designed for punishing whiffed attacks and racking up damage through doing so.

Proposed Changes: Would become a hold-and-release move closer to Quick Draw or Skull Bash. Holding B for longer would increase the damage dealt, length of fury boost, and distance covered, though distance-wise it wouldn't go any further than about half a stage length at full charge. Multihits, freefall properties, and punishability remain the same.

This would also entail moving Accelerock to the side special, working in tandem with the previous proposal for Stealth Rock (which itself would move to neutral). Does anyone have anything they want to add?
 
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Cosmic77

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I guess this is a little off-topic, but detective Pikachu is likely going to reach the $400 million milestone by the end of next week. If it can make an additional $60 million after that, it'll be the most successful movie adaption of a video game ever. That's against a budget of $150 million, so we're looking at a pretty meaty profit.

It's pretty exciting to think of live-action Nintendo movies becoming a regular thing. It also gives us something else to look at when speculating about Smash. Exactly how much will these movies influence Smash? Will we get a small nod through an alt or a Spirit, or could it go as far as to seeing original characters created specifically for a movie get added to the roster? The latter is probably unlikely to happen, but it'll be interesting to see if Nintendo/Sakurai capitalizes on them. At the very least, they could influence Sakurai's choice on new Pokémon.
 

Guynamednelson

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Alright, before we jump to conclusions, we need to remember the big picture and work from there. We're going to see a lot of knee-jerk reactions if this image spreads, with all kinds of people insisting it points to all kinds of characters. We need to be careful here, because freaking out would accomplish nothing.

That said...while the word "Twilight" in there is notable, the fact that it's apparently tied to Brave's stage has me...doubtful that it means much for us.

We have quite a bit of evidence pointing toward Erdrick already, including the codename "Brave" being the class title of a lot of DQ heroes, and this new data doesn't diminish that. So the first question to ask is: Is there anywhere in the Dragon Quest Series, particularly DQIII, that has ties to twilight or sunset? We need to address the elephant in the room first, and even beyond that, it'd be...difficult to connect the word "Brave" to any Lycanroc form, since they're more known for other key things.

Also worth asking is would any potential Lycanroc stage even involve twilight? We've been speculating places like Aether Paradise or Vast Poni Canyon or Ultra Space, locales that, while memorable, aren't exactly known for sunset. We saw with Mementos that the stage code tends to be more straightforward and doesn't allude to the character's identity beyond the game they're both from, so unless that changed, this only tells us something about the stage itself.
Sabi revealed it's fake.
 

Delzethin

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Sabi revealed it's fake.
Oh.

Well.

*awkwardly clears throat*

Back to business, then.
 

LukeRNG

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Having Torracat evolve in the time travel episode would've been brilliant writing, but I'm not ruling Incineroar out just yet. Actually, I'm a little surprised the league is starting so early. Makes me think we could get about ten or more league episodes, and there's no telling what will happen during that time. The sheer number of competitors and Ash's small team are telling me a lot of significant things could happen.

But I am interested to see where they go with Lycanroc. Not gonna lie, it feels it hasn't been nearly as prominent after the battle with Nanu. I honestly don't know if there's gonna be more significant character development, especially with Rowlet, Torracat, their rivals, and the gazillions of other trainers hogging the spotlight.
Or it could also give space to the posibility of featuring Rainbow Rocket, if the league lasted between 5-8 episodes. It could happen, but it would be quite sudden and very random. But i can't stop thinking about the conversation between Nanu & Giovanni.
 

RandomAce

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I unironically thought the legendaries were new Lycanroc forms for a minute.
The Sword one looks sort of similar. The Shield one I thought was Solgaleo though, the mane make it look like a lion.

Anyways, Wolf Legendaries! I’m happy that’s Game Freak started to use wolves more for new Pokémon, and I wonder if a new standard Pokémon is a Wolf as well, or at least something similar.

I don’t think they put a dent in Lycanroc’s chances at all. Doubt they will be playable, but what may put a dent are recent rumors of the E3 reveals being Erdrick and Banjo, which means a potential reveal will have to pushed back, and they start to become less likely.

Also Delzethin Delzethin , my moveset will up this afternoon. Sorry not saying anything, I was sorta trying to make it surprise/joke, but I’ve had a hard time on what I wanted to do and write it down.
 

Cosmic77

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Thinking of making a Zacian and Zamazenta support thread just for fun. Don't know if they'd actually get in, but I'm already in love with them.

Plus, they'll be my second (and third) chance of getting a quad Pokemon similar to Lycanroc, minus the emphasis on rocks and earth.
 

LukeRNG

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Gotta say, the new wolf legendaries have a lot of potential to be my new favorite legendary pokemon, especialy Zacian (after silvally of course, i keep forgeting it's also a legendary).
The crow and turtle are definitely going on my team for the playthrough, although i don't know if i'll buy both games or just 1.
The region is also giving off a medieval feel and that's what i wanted.

Anyways, what i got the most excited aside from everything is: BAGPIPES IN THE MUSIC!
 
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Garteam

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Thinking of making a Zacian and Zamazenta support thread just for fun. Don't know if they'd actually get in, but I'm already in love with them.

Plus, they'll be my second (and third) chance of getting a quad Pokemon similar to Lycanroc, minus the emphasis on rocks and earth.
Honestly, even if we don't get Lycanroc, I could more than live if we got Zacian or Zamazenta in a wave 2. Having the first full beast fighter in Smash would still be rather neat.
 

Cosmic77

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Well, I went ahead and did it. Made a thread for Zacian and Zamazenta. Drop by and show your support if you like these two and would genuinely like to see them in Smash.

This is actually the first thread I've ever made, believe it or not.

Honestly, even if we don't get Lycanroc, I could more than live if we got Zacian or Zamazenta in a wave 2. Having the first full beast fighter in Smash would still be rather neat.
Same. I'll have to learn more about these two "knight dog creatures", but I feel like they could easily fill the gap where Lycanroc was if it didn't get in. It won't be a perfect match of course, but they'd more than make up for Lycanroc.

They might even have more moveset potential than Lycanroc, given that they actually have weapons of sorts. Kinda excited to see what else they can do.
 
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Garteam

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I'm on the fence with what starter I'm gonna choose. I like Scorbunny the most, but I want to see final evolutions before fully committing.
 

LukeRNG

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Speaking of the posibility of a second fighter's pass, if there was plans for a second fighter's pass, then the argument of the curent fighter's pass being third party only would make more sense.
And plus it would give more time to add recent nintendo characters like a xenoblade character, sword and shield pokemon or maybe even breath of the wild rep.
Of course, it would hurt lycanroc's chances greatly if it were the case.

Also, would Lycanroc have color swaps based on the wolf legendaries? I think it would look really cool with the sword legendary's color scheme.
 
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Cosmic77

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Since Gen VIII is becoming more and more relevant, I thought I go ahead and ask a tough question.

Are you supporting other Pokemon aside from Lycanroc? If so, are you afraid these particular Pokemon could eventually become a conflict of interest?
 

Cyborg Sun

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Since Gen VIII is becoming more and more relevant, I thought I go ahead and ask a tough question.

Are you supporting other Pokemon aside from Lycanroc? If so, are you afraid these particular Pokemon could eventually become a conflict of interest?
Well, aside from Lycanroc, I do want Gardevoir... Of course, there's no way of knowing what Nintendo, Sakurai, and the dev team want so I'm not sure if there would be a conflict of interest (plus, Gardevoir's a Pokeball assist, so uhhhhhh)

Also, Delzethin, could you put me on the support list when you can?
 
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Since Gen VIII is becoming more and more relevant, I thought I go ahead and ask a tough question.

Are you supporting other Pokemon aside from Lycanroc? If so, are you afraid these particular Pokemon could eventually become a conflict of interest?
Yes, I do support other Pokémon aside from Lycanroc, no I don't think Pidgey is a big threat to the wolf's chances. Seriously though, I wouldn't mind the new Sword Wolf to be in the Fighter Pass somehow but it's not as much of a conflict of interest as much as keeping an open mind about Generation 8 in Smash instead of dismissing the possibility out of biased fear
 

LukeRNG

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Since Gen VIII is becoming more and more relevant, I thought I go ahead and ask a tough question.

Are you supporting other Pokemon aside from Lycanroc? If so, are you afraid these particular Pokemon could eventually become a conflict of interest?
Not right now, but i'd be open to support another pokemon that i think could happen/ would love to see. As for conflict in interest, i'll stick to Lycanroc til the fighter's pass is officially over then i'll move on.
And the pokemon i'll move on to are the box art legendaries from Galar.
 
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GlaceonGD

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Since Gen VIII is becoming more and more relevant, I thought I go ahead and ask a tough question.

Are you supporting other Pokemon aside from Lycanroc? If so, are you afraid these particular Pokemon could eventually become a conflict of interest?
Always have been and always will be supporting eevee no matter how unlikely/impossible it is for them to get in. Apart from that it's just lycanroc right now, and those are really the only two characters I want in general so ultimate hasn't treated me very well (decided to main Roy because I can actually stand him and I'm somewhat decent at playing him. Also I like his neutral special and design more than Lucina's). Sword and Shield however, well, let's just say I've already preordered the double pack. The game looks incredible so far and while the giant pokemon thing is a bit dumb I'm willing to look past it for many reasons, such as the sheer increase of graphics quality and almost everything else about the games so far.
 

Delzethin

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Phew, finally done with my last main pre-E3 project. Apologies for going dark for a couple days there; needed to get it finished.

Sword & Shield are looking really promising with what we learned in the Direct. Relevant to our interests, of course, are the two new wolves on the block--guess TPC is making up for lost time after taking seven generations for us to get one? Gotta say, I like how they're bucking the stereotypes and being portrayed as unambiguously noble and valiant figures. But what all will they be capable of? What are their typings? Movepool and signature moves? Do they have some unique ties to the Dynamax mechanic? All questions we're stuck waiting to see answered.

I don’t think they put a dent in Lycanroc’s chances at all. Doubt they will be playable, but what may put a dent are recent rumors of the E3 reveals being Erdrick and Banjo, which means a potential reveal will have to pushed back, and they start to become less likely.
Ah, right. Best address that first.


So a few days back, a Resetera member with a track record of occasionally having insider info made a cryptic post about Banjo & Kazooie, using the word "smashing" in there in what seemed to be a very deliberate allusion. In the time since then and since the video above was published, Vergeben has spoken up again saying he's heard similar rumors. Perhaps there's something to this.

Here's the thing, though: Despite what the video's title and thumbnail would have you believe, neither of them are suggesting they're an E3 reveal--right now, neither source has said anything about E3 specifically. That talk has come from other people deciding it must be happening that way because it'd create such a massive spectacle on such a huge stage. The problem with that is it's not about what'd cause the biggest reactions. Cloud was by far the biggest surprise of Smash 4's run of DLC, yet he was not an E3 reveal even though we know now that he was in development at that point--he showed up at the end of a regular Nintendo Direct several months later. And since Nintendo's focus this year is on other games, newer titles coming out this year, Smash doesn't need to bring the house down. Assuming it has to just because it's Smash or because people are expecting their minds to be blown feels...shortsighted.

Could the bear and bird be revealed in a few days? Maybe. But it doesn't mean they must be getting revealed right this instant just because of how big an occasion E3 is--they could very well be one of the last couple fighters. I have this whole thing I might get into later, but the gist of it is I'm wary of how speculation has turned since Joker's reveal toward determining what would create the most spectacle. We shouldn't be asking "Who would cause the most viewers to jump out of their seats?", we should be asking "Which two characters were being worked on alongside Joker?"

That said, this could be a make-or-break situation for us. We need a first party reveal within the next two characters here--pretty much any first party hopeful does. We need proof that Nintendo's entire repertoire hasn't been deemed not momentous enough to worth giving a chance to.

Since Gen VIII is becoming more and more relevant, I thought I go ahead and ask a tough question.

Are you supporting other Pokemon aside from Lycanroc? If so, are you afraid these particular Pokemon could eventually become a conflict of interest?
Well, any others I'm interested in at the moment are either super niche picks or from past generations that've been rotated out of the spotlight. Any I become invested in from Gen 8 won't harm anything since we're likely looking at two windows of opportunity that don't overlap much. Lycanroc has a chance up until this wave of DLC is done, while anyone from Gen 8 is probably left waiting to see if we get a second wave. Sword & Shield having a release date smack dab in the middle of November like we expected cements that adding a character from them in this set would've required choosing them a year early in a way we've seen Sakurai not be comfortable doing.

That said...it'd be nice to have a contingency plan from the new generation with a lot of similar traits in the realistic scenario that we miss our chance. Fortunately, it seems we may have two.

Also, Delzethin, could you put me on the support list when you can?
Can do! It might take a bit, though--I may or may not have burnt myself out a little, getting three videos done in the past month.
 
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Cosmic77

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That said, this could be a make-or-break situation for us. We need a first party reveal within the next two characters here--pretty much any first party hopeful does. We need proof that Nintendo's entire repertoire hasn't been deemed not momentous enough to worth giving a chance to.
Even if we didn't get a first-party by character #3, I wouldn't sweat it. It'd be a little odd for Nintendo/Sakurai to not even hint at there being a theme to this DLC pass. The fact that no one has suggested that this is all for guest characters only makes me thing we'll get something similar to Smash 4's unique DLC, as in a bunch of third-parties with a first-party sandwiched in somewhere. :ultryu::ultcloud::ultcorrin::ultbayonetta:

I could be wrong, but I'm not convinced just yet. Might be able to sway me after the fourth one though.
 

RandomAce

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And... it’s done.

Here’s my in depth thoughts on Lycanroc’s potential move set. I took a lot of ideas from Delzethin’s, other users, and some of my own. I would appreciate some input from you guys and others reading it.

7X: LYCANROC

My take on Lycanroc’s moveset has a great focus on bait and punish, along with some stage control and rush down aspects. Lycanroc’s tools are meant to provide a lot of pressure onto the opponent create opportunities when their opponent is most vulnerable. However, Lycanroc can also be punished if they leave themselves vulnerable and aren’t able to react well to their opponent’s attacks.

I chose to reflect how Lycanroc fights in their home games. All of the forms’ fighting styles revolve around getting their enemy to make mistakes and exploit their vulnerabilities, albeit in different ways. This writing is structured a bit differently, I based it on two different possibilities, Dusk Only, which involves Dusk on his own and has access to different specials from both Midday and Midnight and use both of their fighting styles together. And ‘All Forms’, which includes Midday and Midnight alongside Dusk that you can switch between. They all have similar movesets but they have their own strengths and weaknesses, allowing you to choose which form to fight with at the time you think is right.

Dusk is mostly the same either on his own and with both Midday and Midnight, but there are some changes to make Dusk fit better with both concepts. Due to this, everything is put together and separated when necessary.

Attributes

Dusk
Height: 2.75 (Around Ness’s)
Weight: 96
Speed: 1.20 - 1.95
Jump: 34.5
Air Speed: 0.98
Fall Speed: 1.72


Dusk attributes in Smash are similar to his stats in the Pokémon games. Dusk has fast speed and strength similar to Midday and Midnight, but doesn’t overtake them either, lying around a middle area. Dusk is more of a rushdown fighter, due to it’s more safer middling stats but also does the most shield and hit stun of the three forms, it’s worth throwing out some moves to close in on an opponent and use many of Dusk’s strong follow ups. Dusk benefits this the most by using his tools to put his opponent in a vulnerable position, and attack when their opponent is most vulnerable. Dusk also has a fury mechanic, that increases his overall speed for a short time that pushes this aspect of Dusk as well.

Midday
Height: 2.75 (Around Ness’s)
Weight: 96
Speed: 1.22 - 2.10
Jump: 34
Air Speed: 1
Fall Speed: 1.72


Midday has a similar build to Dusk, being quadrupedal, which gives Midday and Dusk more horizontal range and lower a profile. Midday has the most mobility of the three forms, with the fastest speed and air speed. However, he’s the weakest of the three forms as well, lacking damage and knockback. This makes Midday more of a stage controller, allow him to move more freely around the stage and keep his ground and keeps the upper hand, but can also counter attack anyone who tries to overtake him. Midday does have a lot of combo options and tools, but their damage may not be as rewarding as either Dusk’s or Midnight’s.

Midnight
Height: 4.0 (1/3 Taller)
Weight: 96
Speed: 1.17 - 1.75
Jump: 35
Air Speed: 0.97
Fall Speed: 1.72


Midnight has a different build compared to Dusk or Midday, being bipedal, which gives Midnight more vertical range and a larger profile. Midnight is the strongest out of the three forms, having the most damage output and knock back. However, Midnight has the least mobility as well. Midnight as a result, is the one closest to a bait and punish character, focusing more on creating opportunities with his threatening strength to make the opponent vulnerable and respond with devastating power and put himself in a position in his favor. Although Midnight may not have the most combo follow ups, his damage and knock back make up for it.

All Lycanrocs are more grounded fighters, so their aerial game isn’t as good as their ground game with more risky options. Lycanroc’s recovery game is their weakest aspect, so they’re very vulnerable to edge guards, combos, and many of it’s go to options can be predictable which can make it difficult for Lycanroc to come back.
Normals

All forms share a similar moveset, if there is any move difference between the forms, it will be listed along with the specific move and form.

Jab:
Lycanroc does a paw swipe followed by a weak bite. Fast and safe, it’s a good poking and out of shield option.


(Note: Another option could be a single paw swipe, double swipe, any of these could work).

Jab Follow Up: Dusk/Midnight
Dusk and Midnight follow up with a mane attack. It’s a bit stronger than most jab finishers, but it’s mostly a spacing option.

Jab Follow Up: Midday
Midday follows up with a tail swipe that unleashes two rock shards (maybe from his neck mane) that fly a short distance from him. Mostly a spacing tool.

Forward Tilt:
Lycanroc does a forward arcing slash. It’s a quick move that can be used to poke. It’s trajectory makes it a good combo starter and extender.


Up Tilt: Backflip
Lycanroc does a backflip, piercing their opponent using their claws. It’s a more risky move, but can start combos (and in some situations extend) and kill at higher percents. Lycanroc can also move backwards a bit during this move if you hold back.


Down Tilt: Sand Attack
Lycanroc does a low slash that summons some sand that travels a bit further. The hit box on the sand does less damage than the hit box on the paw swipe. It’s mostly a spacing tool that can be used at mid-range.


Dash Attack:
Lycanroc dashes in and does a head swinging bite. It’s more of a reliable kill move, being able to kill at earlier percents than most of their other moves, but it can be risky on shield.


Neutral Air:
Lycanroc rapidly spins sideways, summoning rock shards (or for Dusk and Midday, could even use release the rocks on their neck mane) that surround it as a disjointed multi hitting attack. It’s almost purely a combo move that can be used to get in, start and extend combos, and rack up damage. Has some end lag, however.


Forward Air:
Lycanroc does a sideways downward arcing slash. It’s one of Lycanroc’s safer aerials, mostly as a good combo tool and help prod in closer to the opponent. May kill at high percents.


Up Air: Dusk/Midnight (Arcing Mane Attack)
Dusk and Midnight swing their manes upward. It’s more of a punishing move, doing lots of damage and can set up for combos at low percents, and kill at high percents. However, it has lot’s of start up, making it more risky to use.

Up Air: Midday
Midday does a midair backflip. Similar to Arcing Mane Attack, it’s more of a punishing move doing lots of damage and can set up combos at low percents and kill at high percents. However, it has more range covering Midday more, but does less damage. It’s still risky but not as much as Dusk and Midnight’s.

Back Air:
Lycanroc does a clawing hind kick. It’s a two hit attack, with Lycanroc using the soles of their feet and immediately brings their claws in. It does a lot of damage and knockback and kills at high percent, but the attack is long enough to leave Lycanroc open. Mostly for spacing and a kill option.


Down Air:
A bit complicated, so bear with me. It’s a two part attack, where Lycanroc summons and creates a boulder under their feet and then kick it downward. If the opponent is hit during the first part (Rock Forming), it can be connected with the second part (Rock Throw). Rock Forming itself does little damage as it’s mainly supposed connect to another move. Rock Throw is a multi hit projectile, consisting of three hits, with the first two bringing the opponent down, and the third hit knocking them at a diagonal angle as the boulder disintegrates, which does so at a fixed distance. If the opponent is dragged down to a platform, the opponent will be knocked back similar to the last hit box. Lycanroc’s Down Air can only spike if the move was not connected with Rock Forming. Lycanroc’s Down Air is very risky, having lots of start up, but in return can rack up a lot of damage and be a useful combo starter at early percents.


Ledge Attack:
Lycanroc does a sweeping slash that also releases some pebbles, quick but not strong, it’s mainly a “Get Off Me” move.


Get Up Attack:
Lycanroc sort of spins around, attacking with their front claw and hind foot. Attacks on both sides. Swift and a good out of shield option. Similar to other get up attacks, it’s mainly a “Get Off Me” move.


Grabs

Grab:
Lycanroc clamps their jaws onto the opponent to hold them down, Midnight also uses his paw as well. Similar to most non tether grabs, slightly quick, but can still be punished if not careful. Has a little more range as Lycanroc slightly creeps forward to grab the opponent.


Pummel:
Lycanroc bites the opponent. Medium pummel speed, Lycanroc is usually able to bite the opponent three times for some extra damage.


Forward Throw:
Lycanroc throws the opponent in front of them. Mostly for spacing.


Back Throw:
Lycanroc drags the opponent using their teeth to throw opponent behind them, in a similar fashion to Simon/Richter’s back throw. Similar to forward throw, most for spacing.


Up Throw:
Lycanroc summons a rock spire from the ground to hit the opponent upwards. A strong kill throw for Lycanroc to use at higher percents.


Down Throw:
Lycanroc throws their opponent on the ground and smacks them down. This one of Lycanroc’s main moves to start combos.


Smash Attacks

Forward Smash: Crunch
Lycanroc slightly leaps forward as astral fangs cover their face that clamp shut to unleash a devastating attack. It’s Lycanroc’s most powerful move, being one of their go to moves to finish off opponents. However, it’s has lots of end lag, so it isn’t a move to half-hazardly throw out. Sends at a more horizontal angle.


Up Smash: Stone Edge
Lycanroc does a rising uppercut summoning a tall rock spire. The move is more powerful at the base than top. It’s much less powerful than Forward Smash, killing at higher percents, but the move has more utility as a combo ender, and is slightly safer, but Lycanroc can still be punished if thrown out in the open. Sends at an upward angle.


Down Smash: Earth Power
Lycanroc strikes the ground, creating two small spires on both sides of Lycanroc from the ground with the debris flying around the area of impact. It’s the safest of the three smashes, so while it doesn’t have the same utility as the other smash attacks, it’s much easier to use to punish and/or use in neutral. Sends at an upward diagonal angle.
“Gimmicks”

There are a couple of gimmicks that Lycanroc can come with that can diversify it a bit from the roster.

Dusk: Vital Spirit (or Fury State)
In the anime, there was an ongoing arc where Ash’s Dusk Lycanroc can enter a powered up state that increases it’s speed by tapping into it’s Midnight’s battle nature. This can be noted from both the games and anime as Dusk eyes turns red, looking nearly identical to Midnight’s eyes, when it attacks.


In Smash, this can be easily translated into a buff mechanic, with Dusk’s eye turning red when activated. Dusk would be able to activate his fury mechanic if he is able to hit the opponent with a physical special move (like Accelerock, Thrash, Counter, etc. it’ll be touched on a bit later), which for a short period of time increases both his speed and attack speed. However, Dusk’s main method of tapping into this state is by using it’s counter move, which can increase the time limit of Dusk’s fury but at the cost of some damage.

All Forms: Form Switch!
This is a larger creative liberty, but it can take Lycanroc to a whole new level.


As the name suggests, with a single command, Dusk can transform entirely into it’s Midday or Midnight forms (or if transforming is to uncanny for you, there can be several Lycanroc that switch out, I’ll go with my transforming concept for now). You are able to select which from to start the match with. The mechanic itself is a mix between how Pokemon Trainer’s gimmick and Shulk’s Monado arts work. By pressing Shield + B (or Down B as it’s pretty standard) a pop up menu will appear that shows you the other two forms that are you able to transform into. The transformation’s speed is akin to Pokémon Trainer’s, so it’s safe to switch between forms in intense situations when you may need to. When Lycanroc transforms, Lycanroc will glow blue and later leave out a howl and battle pose, with an emblem of the Sun, Moon, or Star from the box art of the Gen 7 games appearing in front of them after they transform into their respective form.

As said before, most these are stat changes with only a couple of move differences between the forms.

Special Moves

Dusk Only:

There are several possibilities of how Dusk Special Moves are arranged, here’s one why I can see work.

Neutral Special 1: Accelerock
Dusk hunches down and then dashes forward extremely quickly in a similar manner to Fox’s Side Special, but with less start up, with rocks circling around as Dusk uses it’s bite and fangs to attack. It’s a multi hit attack that sends opponents at an angle that can be used for combos that travels around 1/2 the size of Final Destination. However, it can leave Dusk vulnerable if he misses, and doesn’t do a lot of damage either. Dusk can also increase the distance and damage of the move by holding B. The aerial version of Accelerock only has about 3/4 the distance of the grounded version, and puts Dusk in free fall.

If this moves hits an opponent, it can activate Dusk’s fury state for about 5 seconds. You can’t use Accelerock to extend the time in fury.

Neutral Special 2: Counter Stone
Recently some characters have had some moves be in a single special. For instance, Palutena and Joker both have their reflects and counter in single special. In this case, I decided to put both signature moves of Lycanroc into Neutral Special.

Holding B and then pressing down will make Dusk enter a counter state, going in a hunched down pose. In this state, Dusk can stay in this position and absorb multiple attacks, however, Dusk will take about half the damage done to him. Once B is released, Dusk will strike downward with their mane and enter into his fury state. The counter move itself is standard, dealing damage and knockback based on the move it countered that sends at a diagonal angle. However, the time spent in fury also scales as well, and can increase. If Dusk is in fury state, Dusk can also extend the time it is in fury by using Counter Stone as well, but, fury can only go for a max of 20 seconds.

If the idea of sharing Accelerock and Counter Stone into one move doesn’t seem likely to you. Then it will be Dusk’s Down B instead.

Side Special: Stealth Rock
Dusk unleashes several rock shards that pin slightly above the ground. If an opponent walks over the area of these shards, a rock spire suddenly erupts that sends the opponent flying upward. However, the trap only lasts for about 10 seconds before disappearing. Dusk can charge up to 3 shards, which can be shown by a glow on some of the rocks on Dusk’s mane. When unleashed, the shards will fly out at a low angle as a very weak projectile, and will fly at an even lower angle in the air. Dusk can charge up while he already has Stealth Rock in play, but he can’t place Stealth Rock until it’s been used or disappeared, which can be shown by the rocks reappearing on Dusk’s neck. The charged versions of Stealth Rock has the rock spires rise up one by one very rapidly, and have a slightly larger area of activation. A very powerful trap move with it’s charged versions being able to keep opponents in hitstun and allow Dusk combo follow ups or kill moves. However, if the opponent is misplaced, they may not be hit by all the spires.

Stealth Rock won’t activate Dusk’s Fury.

Up Special: Rock Climb
Dusk summons a small rock that forges into a cliff similar to the one Lycanroc’s Z - Move that it creates will sliding on it, before jumping off. Dusk can later follow up with two different moves: Zen Headbutt: that has Dusk use it’s mane similar to it’s Up Air, but with a smaller range in front of him at an upward diagonal angle. And Smack Down, that has Dusk thrash downward in a similar manner to Incineroar’s Up Special, but with rock effects and powerful bite that brings the opponent down.

The recovery of the move is more horizontal, having Dusk slide up at a 30' angle, but you can change the angle up to 50’ by holding up. The first portion is a multi hit attack, and Zen Headbutt still carries the momentum of Dusk’s jump. Zen Headbutt is the standard move, but if you press down B during Rock Climb, Dusk will perform Smack Down instead. Dusk’s recovery is pretty weak, the damage of the move itself does is okay, but Dusk can be intercepted by a lot of moves and projectiles during the move. The main use of the move is that can be a good out of shield option on the ground, as it has fast start up, and Smack Down can be a combo starter at early percents, and help bring Dusk down when he’s high up in the air.

If this move hits an opponent, it will activate Dusk’s fury state for about 5 seconds. Rock Climb will not extend Dusk’s time in fury.

Down Special: Rock Tomb
Dusk strikes his paw on the ground, summoning a wall of rock right in front of him. The wall of rock is slightly taller than Ganondorf and lasts for about 10 seconds. If Dusk is in the air, a small rock will go directly downward and activate when it hits the ground.

This move is mostly a trap set up similar to that of Stealth Rock. If Dusk hits an opponent toward the rock, the opponent will bounce off of, allowing Dusk to do several set ups that he may not be able to do before. The summoning of the wall isn’t meant to do damage, doing small damage and knockback if an opponent gets dragged in the summoning, however, if Dusk spikes the opponent at the wall, there is a sweet spot at the top of the wall that can be used as a viable kill option. Since Stealth Rock and Rock Tomb are both trap based, you are not able to put either at the same time.

Rock Tomb won’t activate Dusk’s Fury. If Counter Stone becomes a separate move, than it will replace Rock Tomb.

FINAL SMASH: Splintered Stormshards
Lycanroc pounces directly upward, catching everyone caught up in debris around him. Then similar to Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon, Lycanroc does a triumphant howl, before jumping upwards and summoning large pointy shards in the air. Lycanroc then rushes straight at the opponent, striking past them as the storm of shards head straight toward them.


This time in Smash, all the forms of Lycanroc join in on the attack. The Final Smash causes the stage to be rid of all unused items.

All Forms:

All the forms share the same specials with the exception of one, Neutral Special, so I’ll only go into detail on that move. Side Special, Up Special, Down Special, and Final Smash remain the same (with the exception of Fury for Midday and Midnight). However, if Down Special becomes the special to switch forms, then it will once again replace Rock Tomb.

Neutral Special (Dusk): Thrash
A different take on Dusk’s Neutral Special. Dusk will dash forward in a similar manner to one of Vergil’s moves in UMVC3, and in his trails follows a bite mark, a slash, and mane strike. By pressing B rapidly, Dusk can extend the attack up to 7 hits. If you hold B, he will enter into a counter state, which functions similar to the one in his Dusk Only concept. This moves travels around a 1/3 of Final Destination and travels less farther in the air. If Dusk misses, he can be vulnerable to counter attacks, but it’s a powerful move that does lots of damage, and can kill be a good kill option.

If this move hits, it can activate Dusk’s fury. Thrash cannot extend Dusk’t time in fury.

Neutral Special (Midday): Accelerock
Midday’s Accelerock functions similarly to Dusk’s. However, Midday is able to travel slightly further, and the damage and knockback remains the same. Accelerock is a strong punishing tool, mainly used to go around the stage quickly and punish mistakes that leave the opponent open for attacks. The benefit of using Accelerock is a great combo starter, but the move is very punishable if Midday uses it on shield or misses. Charging the move by holding B can increase the distance and damage of the attack, and the aerial version only goes about 3/4 the distance of the grounded version.

Midday’s more faster playstyle requires lots of precision and strategy, so using Accelerock could greatly give Midday the advantage if used well.

Neutral Special (Midnight): Counter Stone
Similar to Dusk’s Counter attack, Midnight enters a counter state and counter attacks using a powerful mane strike. However, it’s function is very different than Dusk’s. Midnight can extend the counter by holding B and absorb multiple attacks at cost of half the damage given, but, Midnight’s counter attack is actually optional, and you can choose to counter attack at will by pressing B again. Midnight is able to absorb up to 25% percent of damage, but any attack past 25% will instantly trigger Midnight’s counter attack, rather than absorb more damage. Scaling damage and knockback still apply.

Midnight’s Counter is one of the most powerful moves in the game, so how you use Midnight’s counter could be very important in his neutral game.
Animations

On Screen Appearance: Lycanroc bases throw a wall of rocks and lets out a small howl.

Taunt 1: Lycanroc does a howl.

Taunt 2: Lycanroc hunches down and growls.

Taunt 3a: Dusk/Midnight does a “come at me” expression, with a mocking smile. Dusk’s eyes flash red in this instance.

Taunt 3b: Midday sits up and scoffs at the opponent, tilting his head to the side.

Standing Stance: Lycanroc stands similar to how they stand in their original games. With Dusk/Midday on all fours and Midnight slouching.

Idle 1: These idle stances are what Lycanroc do in their home games. With Dusk/Midday looking both sides and Midnight doing his “bring it” pose.

Idle 2a: Midday/Dusk hunch down looking directly forward.

Idle 2b: Midnight hunches a bit spreading his arms into a battle position and looks forward.

Victory Animation 1: A tribute to a specific scene in the anime where all three Lycanroc forms howl at the sun set. The winning form is at the center.

Victory Animation 2a: Dusk does two slashes at the camera before the camera pans in closer to Dusk’s face as he lets out a smile.

Victory Animation 2b: Midday pounces from above, sits then and then grunts at the camera as it pans in closer to Midday with it’s head cocked at a left angle with a sort of angry/disappointed expression.

Victory Animation 2c: Midnight does two slashes before the camera pans in, Midnight showing his claws up front with a slightly mocking grin.

Victory Animation 3a: Dusk and Midday summoning some rocks around them, breaking one right in front of them with their paw. Dusk has smile while Midday keeps his intimidating expression.

Victory Animation 3c: Midnight summons some rocks, but breaks with their fist with camera closer to Midnight with his fist still held up with a slightly mocking grin.

Alternate Colors

Color 1: Standard

Color 2: Arcanine

Color 3: Mightyena

Color 4: Houndoom (Gets replaced if Midnight is an alternate color)

Color 5: Manetric

Color 6: Scoutland (Gets replaced if Midday becomes an alternate color)

Color 7: Zygrade

Color 8: Zachion and Zamazenta. With some extra stuff like the gold platings.

Extras
Dusk Render: Dusk’s render is composed of him having one claw held in a slashing position in front of them with it’s front legs in the air and hind legs at the ground and with a happy expression.

Midday Render: Midday’s render has Midday do something similar to Dusk, but instead is in more traditional pouncing position with both claws up front.

Midnight Render: Midnight does something similar to one of his official art. Where instead of reaching upward, Midnight’s paw is in a more horizontal position similar to Dusk.

Fury Portrait: If Dusk is in fury state, Dusk’s eyes in his portrait turn red as well.

Banner Art: Dusk comes down from a jump, with it’s front paws on the ground and hind legs in the air facing toward the left, with Midday and Midnight beside him. Dusk has one eye red and the other green (ideally where Midday and Midnight are).

Classic Mode: The Strongest Pack
Lycanroc fights against opponents who are either canine, or have strong bonds.

Battle 1: :ultlucario: in Sinnoh Victory Road
Battle 2: :ultwolf: in Venom
Battle 3: :ulticeclimbers: in Summit
Battle 4: :ultryu::ultken: in Suzaku Castle
Battle 5: :ultchrom::ultlucina: in Arena Ferox
Battle 6: :ultsimon::ultrichter: in Dracula Castle. You play as either Midnight or Dusk in Midnight’s alternate color. Die Monster!

Classic Victory Screen: Lycanroc is howling in front of the moon in Luigi’s Mansion.

Spirit: The Dream Art for all forms of Lycanroc.

Battle Victory Interaction: Simon says, “The Darkness”, when he wins against Midnight or Dusk in fury state.

EDIT: Made some additions and changes to flesh out my concept more.
 
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LukeRNG

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Ok, here's the big question: will there be 2 character reveals at e3?
If so, would we be the potential shadow-drop character?
 

Cyborg Sun

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Ok, here's the big question: will there be 2 character reveals at e3?
If so, would we be the potential shadow-drop character?
Well, Delzethin has usually talked about the possibility of an E3 double reveal. 1 first party and 1 third party he predicts, right?

Now, this isn't a prediction per se, more of a "what I would do" kinda thing, but if we get 2 character reveals... maybe announce the first party at the end of tomorrow's tournament, and announce the third party during E3? I dunno, I don't actually think we'll see a reveal at tomorrow's tournament, but it wouldn't hurt to throw some possibilities out there, right?

And as for the shadow-drop... considering we JUST got a balance patch, I would argue the chances of an E3 shadow-drop may have... dropped... a bit.
I'm sorry.
 
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Delzethin

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Ok, here's the big question: will there be 2 character reveals at e3?
If so, would we be the potential shadow-drop character?
In order:

- I think it's pretty plausible we get two reveals soon. We know two characters were being developed alongside Joker, meaning they should be close to finished at minimum. If we only get one reveal here, it probably won't be too long before another happens.

- Considering the surprise 3.1 update a week ago...I don't think there'll be any shadow drop. Version 4.0 will probably show up around the start of July at the earliest.
 

Cyborg Sun

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Well, Delzethin has usually talked about the possibility of an E3 double reveal. 1 first party and 1 third party he predicts, right?

Now, this isn't a prediction per se, more of a "what I would do" kinda thing, but if we get 2 character reveals... maybe announce the first party at the end of tomorrow's tournament, and announce the third party during E3? I dunno, I don't actually think we'll see a reveal at tomorrow's tournament, but it wouldn't hurt to throw some possibilities out there, right?

And as for the shadow-drop... considering we JUST got a balance patch, I would argue the chances of an E3 shadow-drop may have... dropped... a bit.
I'm sorry.
Looks like there will only be one reveal, if Sakurai's words at the end of today's tournament are to be taken at face value. ...I mean yeah there's still a slight chance of two, but either way we will get at least one character at E3, so there's something.

EDIT: Also there's this.
 
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LukeRNG

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Looks like there will only be one reveal, if Sakurai's words at the end of today's tournament are to be taken at face value. ...I mean yeah there's still a slight chance of two, but either way we will get at least one character at E3, so there's something.

EDIT: Also there's this.
Tbh, after some thought, i'm really having a difficult time thinking where they would announce the last 2 fighters with so much space in time being roughly 7 months.
 

RandomAce

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The past couple of news recently has been interesting, seems like we could get just one fighter at E3 rather than 2.

Don’t know where that leaves us at. A lot of people believe it’s either Erdrick or Banjo due to recent rumors, but I wonder if this time something unexpected happens. Personally I would want two fighters, with one being Erdrick to close the book on him and someone entirely new.

Just be careful with leaks here guys. Sabi might start sharing everything on Nintendo’s Direct (sadly) soon, so if you want to say something in regards to Nintendo’s presentation, make sure to put them in spoilers. And try to stay off of twitter and some of the smashboard threads as well if you want to come into E3 blind.

Tbh, after some thought, i'm really having a difficult time thinking where they would announce the last 2 fighters with so much space in time being roughly 7 months.
That was always something I wondered. But I could see them pulling a 2 month pattern, with one character in June, another in August, October, and December. I don’t agree that the next character is going to be released in July like Delz thinks, mainly since whoever the second fighter is, is mostly likely done at this point.
 
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Cyberfire

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I could honestly see it going like;
E3 Direct: DLC2 revealed, release date announced as July
July: Smash Direct showcasing 4.0 details, with DLC3 announced and shadowdropped alongside DLC2
 

Delzethin

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Looks like there will only be one reveal, if Sakurai's words at the end of today's tournament are to be taken at face value. ...I mean yeah there's still a slight chance of two, but either way we will get at least one character at E3, so there's something.

EDIT: Also there's this.
So despite it all, they really are planning on a reveal in the E3 Direct. Gotta say, it's a risky move--could end up pulling fans' attention away from the upcoming games. And now we're in a spot where we might only get one reveal, even, though the lack of plural tense in Japanese and the ambiguous wording of the post-tournament recording (the character he mentioned working on may not be the only reveal, etc.) mean there's an outside chance we could still see two.

Well...if there's only one reveal, it's probably "Brave". And since said character's identity is basically an open secret and has been for a while, we'd be leaving E3 in pretty much the exact same condition we're entering it in.

But we also know, at least according to Sakurai's message from a while back, that two characters have been in the works alongside Joker. So if only one of 'em is unveiled in the coming days...well, the other can't be too far behind. Perhaps a Robin-style standalone reveal in July or early August would be in the cards?

Either way, only a couple days to wait now until we've a clearer idea of what is going on.

Tbh, after some thought, i'm really having a difficult time thinking where they would announce the last 2 fighters with so much space in time being roughly 7 months.
My theory for the last couple are:

- Fighter #4 revealed in the obligatory autumn Nintendo Direct in September or October
- Smash Direct in November/early December that reveals Fighter #5, and maybe even announces a second season if 1) they decide to go through with it and 2) are willing to announce its existence so soon

But as we've seen, things rarely pan out as we expect or theorize. Pays to be able to adjust our predictions when we learn more!
 

Cyborg Sun

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So despite it all, they really are planning on a reveal in the E3 Direct. Gotta say, it's a risky move--could end up pulling fans' attention away from the upcoming games.
Well, that is true, but at the same time it's best not to underestimate how passionate some people are for the other games. (I know I'll be pouring most of my attention into Marvel Ultimate Alliance 3 this year, no matter who's announced for Smash. And let's not forget the Animal Crossing fans who have waited so long for a proper new entry.)
 

LukeRNG

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Well, that is true, but at the same time it's best not to underestimate how passionate some people are for the other games. (I know I'll be pouring most of my attention into Marvel Ultimate Alliance 3 this year, no matter who's announced for Smash. And let's not forget the Animal Crossing fans who have waited so long for a proper new entry.)
Plus many people weren't happy with last year's e3 direct being 50% smash bros, and it was quite the blowout.
 
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BluePikmin11

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I am going to leave Smashboards soon, so I have one final message for you all.

I greatly thank you all Lycanroc supporters for making Pokemon newcomer speculation so far.

Ever since I discussed Lycanroc's chances in Smash Ultimate in-depth in the RTC thread, the discussion surrounding Pokemon newcomers grew to be a lot of fun.

I loved analyzing bits of Sakurai's Pokemon criteria and observing the progression of the S/M anime/marketing with you guys. It was an intensely fun ride from beginning to end.

I want to thank Delzethin Delzethin , RandomAce RandomAce , Garteam Garteam , and TCT~Phantom TCT~Phantom so much for openly contributing to in-depth talk.

I am going to miss you guys. You Lycanroc supporters were the highlight of Ultimate base game speculation for me.
 

LukeRNG

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It seems this year might be big for Nintendo, given that their presentation will last around 40 minutes.
Of course a large portion of that time could be highlighting a game, but i don't think that will happen given the feedback from the smash focus last year.
 

RandomAce

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I am going to leave Smashboards soon, so I have one final message for you all.

I greatly thank you all Lycanroc supporters for making Pokemon newcomer speculation so far.

Ever since I discussed Lycanroc's chances in Smash Ultimate in-depth in the RTC thread, the discussion surrounding Pokemon newcomers grew to be a lot of fun.

I loved analyzing bits of Sakurai's Pokemon criteria and observing the progression of the S/M anime/marketing with you guys. It was an intensely fun ride from beginning to end.

I want to thank Delzethin Delzethin , RandomAce RandomAce , Garteam Garteam , and TCT~Phantom TCT~Phantom so much for openly contributing to in-depth talk.

I am going to miss you guys. You Lycanroc supporters were the highlight of Ultimate base game speculation for me.
I’m gonna miss you Blue.

It was always fun discussing with you here, and I miss having you around.
 
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