Day, Night, and Dusk - Lycanroc for Smash Bros. Ultimate

LukeRNG

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In all honesty, my least favorite part of waiting is not knowing what the outcome will be and it applies to my life in general. But nonetheless, it'll be interesting to see what happens given that we're currently entering the calm before the e3 storm. And i somehow get the feeling that this years e3 will be nintendo's biggest e3 yet for many factors.

Speaking about the remaining 4 characters, i'm looking foward to seeing who the last 4 will be, given that i don't care so much for who they are (unless they're a favorite of mine) but rather how they play. But for some reason i'm struggling to think who the last dlc character will be.
This is how i'm feeling currently with the potential character picks in no order:
2-. Either Microsoft character or square enix - Banjo, Steve, Master Chief - Sora, Erdrick, Geno.
3-. 1st party character from existing franchise - Pokemon, Fire Emblem, Zelda, Xenoblade (i know xenoblade is technically 2nd party).
4-. Other 3rd Party character (The one from number 2 that wasn't picked, Namco, Rayman, Capcom).
5-. ???

These are not necesarely the most likely but they are who i feel will happen given speculations, rumors and current nintendo plans.
 

Delzethin

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So, Sakurai published a book last week, a collection of his Famitsu articles with some extra commentary. This is his third one, apparently, and the previous two revealed some interesting details about development of other Smash games that we hadn't known before.

This one...doesn't actually provide much about Ultimate, according to translations so far. Among the only notable things is that they hadn't decided they wanted to make DLC even as recently as last spring, so the "character cutoff for first parties was the end of 2016, earlier than expected, because DLC could cover 2017 and onward" theory falls flat.

But one tidbit here is relevant to our interests:


It seems Sakurai likes using figures of characters to get a good reference point for their models. Note that this doesn't mean a character needs an existing figure to have a chance, just that it helps on the development side of things. The picture provided seems to be an up-to-date look at Sakurai's collection, or at least part of it--there's even a couple for Joker on the right.

But the interesting part? That line about figures of characters that are yet to be announced being left out of the shot. This seems to mean at least one newcomer left in this wave is someone who has an existing figure.

Something Lycanroc just so happens to have several of.
 
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Delzethin

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Hard to believe it's already May. Less than a month and a half until E3, and so many fates still hang in the balance. Going to be a wild couple of months...and I'm not sure whether that'll be a good thing, bad thing, neutral thing, incomprehensible thing that can't be placed on a sliding scale...

Is there anything you're hoping to see revealed or announced in the coming weeks? Aside from the obvious, of course.
 

Super10ZX

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Hard to believe it's already May. Less than a month and a half until E3, and so many fates still hang in the balance. Going to be a wild couple of months...and I'm not sure whether that'll be a good thing, bad thing, neutral thing, incomprehensible thing that can't be placed on a sliding scale...

Is there anything you're hoping to see revealed or announced in the coming weeks? Aside from the obvious, of course.
I would really like to see more stuff about Sword & Shield. Maybe a few new Pokemon and such. My other want is definitely more of an E3 thing, but I just want to see Pikmin 4. I've been waiting for it for almost 4 years ever since Miyamoto said it was a thing in an interview.
 

RandomAce

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So remember that letter that I mentioned a while back that was sent to Japanese players during Smash’s release that mentioned working on “Joker, the next, and the next, and something”...

Well we got a more accurate translation from push which confirms that yes, Fighter 2 and Fighter 3 were worked on alongside Joker. So, some of our predictions such as a dual reveal may come.


Hard to believe it's already May. Less than a month and a half until E3, and so many fates still hang in the balance. Going to be a wild couple of months...and I'm not sure whether that'll be a good thing, bad thing, neutral thing, incomprehensible thing that can't be placed on a sliding scale...

Is there anything you're hoping to see revealed or announced in the coming weeks? Aside from the obvious, of course.
Not much other than Pokémon news. I want to see what new pokemon Sword and Shield have to offer, and be interested in some after my disappointment with the starters. Along with that, maybe some insight on new moves, areas, maybe mechanics. Pokémon is arguably the only new thing we may get during this month as E3 is coming by.

Small nitpick, but when are you updating the Lycanroc OP? There are still some dated stuff and new supporters that haven’t been added.
 
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Delzethin

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So remember that letter that I mentioned a while back that was sent to Japanese players during Smash’s release that mentioned working on “Joker, the next, and the next, and something”...

Well we got a more accurate translation from push which confirms that yes, Fighter 2 and Fighter 3 were worked on alongside Joker. So, some of our predictions such as a dual reveal may come.

So, turns out in this particular case that we were onto something after all. The odds of a double reveal some time around E3 are steadily increasing the further we go, but this pushes it into "legitimately likely" territory.

Now I can't help but wonder about that championship invitational thing happening before E3 on the 8th. What if their plan is to do the reveals a couple days beforehand in a Smash Direct, then demo at least one of the characters during the event?

Small nitpick, but when are you updating the Lycanroc OP? There are still some dated stuff and new supporters that haven’t been added.
I know, I still need to do that. I keep putting off updating the thing because so much other stuff keeps coming up, and now it's become a daunting task that hangs ominously overhead. I just need to find a time where I don't need to work on something else so urgently, and then once I get momentum going I'll be able to knock it out.

Far from some flawless figurehead, eh? Every day brings a new set of tasks to complete, and only enough stamina to finish 3/4 of them...
 
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Garteam

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I decided to work on some Spirits that could come with Lycanroc:

Grookey (Novice): vs. Green Diddy Kong on Pokemon Stadium (Grass form)
-Enemy's Neutral and Down Special has increased power
-Enemy starts with a Home-Run Bat

Scorbunny (Novice): vs. Gray Lucas on Pokemon Stadium (Fire form)
-Enemy's kick attacks have increased power
-Enemy starts with a Bunny Hood equiped

Sobble (Novice): vs. Blue Squirtle on Pokemon Stadium (Water form)
-Enemy's Neutral and Up Special has increased power
-Enemy starts with a Super Leaf Equipped

Decidueye (Advanced): vs. Green Falco on Distant Planet (Battlefield Version)
-Enemy's Neutral Special has increased power
-Enemy turns invisible after awhile
-Strong winds are in effect

Professor Kukui (Legend): vs. Lycanroc, Black King K. Rool (to represent Snorlax), Red Falco (to represent Braviary), White Samus (to represent Magnezone), and Incineroar on Kalos Pokemon League (Omega version)
-Only certain Pokemon appear from Pokeballs (Alolan Vulpix)
-Enemy reinforcements appear
 

Guynamednelson

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I decided to work on some Spirits that could come with Lycanroc:
I was thinking about some too:

Primarina:
Vs. default Wii Fit Trainer on Wuhu Island (rocks)
*Enemy prefers using neutral special
*Squid Sisters Assist Trophy appears

Midnight Lycanroc:
Vs. red Wolf on Alola stage
*Zoroark Poke Balls appear
*Periodic earthquakes will shake the stage

Naganadel:
Vs. default Ridley on Alola Stage
*Floor is sticky
*Floor is poisonous

Buzzwole:
Vs. red Captain Falcon
*Enemy loves to taunt
*Enemy attacks have increased power

Pheromosa:
Vs. white Zero Suit Samus
*Enemy has increased speed
*Enemy is easy to launch

Kartana:
Vs. tiny white Chrom
*Enemy attacks have increased power
*Enemy is weak to fire

Blacephalon:
Vs. Mii Brawler with Marx hat and Flying Man outfit
*Enemy prefers using Shot Put
*Explosive items appear

Zeraora:
Vs. orange Incineroar
*Floor is electrifying
*Enemy attacks have increased power
*Enemy has increased speed
 
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Delzethin

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Now that I think about it, would they need to add a whole new category of spirit effect for some of Lycanroc's attacks? Would "Earth Attack Up" and "Earth Resist" become a thing, and would several of the spirits that came along need to favor those effects in order to have a few be available? Maybe they'd tack on bury resistance alongside the effects that'd allow you to escape bury states faster, like how Fire Resist also grants resistance to explosions? Or would they simply file any earthbending attacks under the Physical category?

Actually, have we discussed bury effects before? Wouldn't be out of the question for a character with earth-based powers to have a move capable of it, even if said powers are more in the "pull rocks up out of nowhere" sense.
 

Guynamednelson

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Or would they simply file any earthbending attacks under the Physical category?
I think they should just do this, considering how there are already several spirits that could fit an effect like "Earth Attack/Resist Up".

If such an effect is added to the game I'd be wanting Isaac even more just so these spirits aren't only useful for one fighter.
 

osby

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I don't see a DLC character bringing a new element. They'll likely just give Lycanroc's attacks a debris effect like Chrom's neutral special and call it a day.
 

RandomAce

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Now that I think about it, would they need to add a whole new category of spirit effect for some of Lycanroc's attacks? Would "Earth Attack Up" and "Earth Resist" become a thing, and would several of the spirits that came along need to favor those effects in order to have a few be available? Maybe they'd tack on bury resistance alongside the effects that'd allow you to escape bury states faster, like how Fire Resist also grants resistance to explosions? Or would they simply file any earthbending attacks under the Physical category?

Actually, have we discussed bury effects before? Wouldn't be out of the question for a character with earth-based powers to have a move capable of it, even if said powers are more in the "pull rocks up out of nowhere" sense.
I don’t Lycanroc would necessarily need a bury attack. Maybe a down throw, or a meteor attack that buried the opponent if hit on the ground could work though.

I think it could work. Although I don’t know a lot about spirits, I could see Lycanroc bring a new element, as some of their attacks could utilize some debris or shattered rocks as effects which can be repurposed (and the fact that their rock attacks are literally “earth”). It doesn’t really seem like something difficult to add which was the whole point of spirits.

Now whether the new spirits that could come along with Lycanroc are meant to push that? I don’t know, or really think so. Thematically, it makes sense, but really depends on the Pokémon that are able to utilize it and how well they can with whatever the character they’re choosing to represent them, and among what other Pokémon they are willing to add. I could see about a few coming with it, but not being over-centralizing. However, I could see that the earth element be used for later for other spirits down the line, or even a fighter like Isaac... I think that’s it.
 

Delzethin

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So, remember how we discussed a while back about getting some artwork done?

Well, there may or may not be some steps going toward that now. Hopefully things'll ramp up soon in that regard and we can start ironing out exactly what we want this version of the moveset to be like.

I don't see a DLC character bringing a new element. They'll likely just give Lycanroc's attacks a debris effect like Chrom's neutral special and call it a day.
I think it could work. Although I don’t know a lot about spirits, I could see Lycanroc bring a new element, as some of their attacks could utilize some debris or shattered rocks as effects which can be repurposed (and the fact that their rock attacks are literally “earth”). It doesn’t really seem like something difficult to add which was the whole point of spirits.

Now whether the new spirits that could come along with Lycanroc are meant to push that? I don’t know, or really think so. Thematically, it makes sense, but really depends on the Pokémon that are able to utilize it and how well they can with whatever the character they’re choosing to represent them, and among what other Pokémon they are willing to add. I could see about a few coming with it, but not being over-centralizing. However, I could see that the earth element be used for later for other spirits down the line, or even a fighter like Isaac... I think that’s it.
You know, I'd actually overlooked that we have a couple moves with earth-like particle effects already (Charizard's dsmash also does). So they could simply use those for any earthbending attacks without having to program any completely new effects in.

I also realized that not having any "Earth Atk Up" spirits wouldn't be a deal breaker either, at least based on precedent we have already. After all, no spirits affect any plant-based attacks even though Ivysaur uses them extensively and even Piranha Plant gets in on the action!
 

osby

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I also realized that not having any "Earth Atk Up" spirits wouldn't be a deal breaker either, at least based on precedent we have already. After all, no spirits affect any plant-based attacks even though Ivysaur uses them extensively and even Piranha Plant gets in on the action!
Because there's no such thing as plant-type attack.

Only two fighters actually use ice (:ulticeclimbers::ultlucas:), but we still have ice type Spirits, because it's a programmed attack type with its own effects and properties. Same with magic, PK, aura or Pikmin.

I don't think any of Lycranroc's attacks would be classified at a new type if it gets in. It would likely have Tail, Bite, Slash etc. type attacks only and we have Spirits for them.
 

RandomAce

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Really depends on what Sakurai would consider Lycanroc’s attacks to be.

I do still see them giving Lycanroc unique special effects for their earth attacks since they do that for almost every newcomer where it fits. Even Joker has special trail effects for his knife attacks. I suppose reusing Charizard’s for a down smash could work, but mostly everything else would be new.
 

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For those who haven't been keeping up with the anime, Lana's Brionne recently evolved into a Primarina.

I think this a really good reminder of how random and spontaneous evolutions can be, especially in the Sun and Moon series. We might be nearing the <25 episodes mark, but Torracat could easily pull off a last minute evolution before the league. If this ends up being the case, then I think we can assume that Litten was likely planned to evolve into Incineroar from the very beginning - something that could've had a huge influence on Sakurai's final decision.

Now that I think about it, would they need to add a whole new category of spirit effect for some of Lycanroc's attacks? Would "Earth Attack Up" and "Earth Resist" become a thing, and would several of the spirits that came along need to favor those effects in order to have a few be available? Maybe they'd tack on bury resistance alongside the effects that'd allow you to escape bury states faster, like how Fire Resist also grants resistance to explosions? Or would they simply file any earthbending attacks under the Physical category?

Actually, have we discussed bury effects before? Wouldn't be out of the question for a character with earth-based powers to have a move capable of it, even if said powers are more in the "pull rocks up out of nowhere" sense.
I really don't think Lycanroc requires any kind of elemental label to be added if he were to get in. His attacks might get a few special animations and sound effects, but they'd probably all be grouped under existing categories. If I had to take a guess, physical attacks would be most likely.
 

Garteam

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For those who haven't been keeping up with the anime, Lana's Brionne recently evolved into a Primarina.

I think this a really good reminder of how random and spontaneous evolutions can be, especially in the Sun and Moon series. We might be nearing the <25 episodes mark, but Torracat could easily pull off a last minute evolution before the league. If this ends up being the case, then I think we can assume that Litten was likely planned to evolve into Incineroar from the very beginning - something that could've had a huge influence on Sakurai's final decision.
I'd agree, if not for one factor that suggests to me that Torracat won't be evolving:

Torracat currently has an ongoing rivalry with Kukui's Incineroar. As such, it's fairly likely that the two will be squaring off in the league. Generally, two Pokemon of the same species won't fight each other unless its a joke (Metapod vs. Metapod) or there's some sort of significant difference in appearance, so the audience doesn't get confused (Ash and Ritchie's Pikachus come to mind). Kukui's Incineroar is completely normal appearance wise, while Torracat has no significant appearance differences currently, so It'd be odd for it to gain one on evolution.

I guess Torracat could evolve into Incineroar after the final Kukui battle. However, it is kinda weird to have a character gain a power-up after their climatic battle.
 

Delzethin

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For those who haven't been keeping up with the anime, Lana's Brionne recently evolved into a Primarina.

I think this a really good reminder of how random and spontaneous evolutions can be, especially in the Sun and Moon series. We might be nearing the <25 episodes mark, but Torracat could easily pull off a last minute evolution before the league. If this ends up being the case, then I think we can assume that Litten was likely planned to evolve into Incineroar from the very beginning - something that could've had a huge influence on Sakurai's final decision.
As always, we're best off keeping an ear to the ground for these kinds of things. We shouldn't jump to conclusions, as easy as it is to with how the internet works, but we also shouldn't dismiss these kinds of possibilities entirely.

That said, an evolution this late wouldn't discount everything Ash's Lycanroc has done, and I doubt we'd have to worry about getting usurped as the team ace with no prior buildup suggesting such a thing.

Well, not unless some really ****ty writing happened.

There're also big picture things to suggest Ash's Torracat won't evolve, like-

I'd agree, if not for one factor that suggests to me that Torracat won't be evolving:

Torracat currently has an ongoing rivalry with Kukui's Incineroar. As such, it's fairly likely that the two will be squaring off in the league. Generally, two Pokemon of the same species won't fight each other unless its a joke (Metapod vs. Metapod) or there's some sort of significant difference in appearance, so the audience doesn't get confused (Ash and Ritchie's Pikachus come to mind). Kukui's Incineroar is completely normal appearance wise, while Torracat has no significant appearance differences currently, so It'd be odd for it to gain one on evolution.

I guess Torracat could evolve into Incineroar after the final Kukui battle. However, it is kinda weird to have a character gain a power-up after their climatic battle.
...And I've been beaten to the punch.

The anime is very consistent about never letting two 'mons of the same species and form square off against each other or even appear alongside each other multiple times in the long run, because it'd be extremely difficult to tell who is who. They even went out of their way to give Olivia a Midday Lycanroc in the anime canon because Gladion has a Midnight one as his team ace and they didn't want two Midnights running around! Notice how the only other Primarina in the anime prior to Lana's Brionne evolving was a one-off whose trainer appeared in a single episode? That is very much not the case with Professor Kukui.

While it's not impossible that an evolution could happen here, it definitely raises questions as to how likely or feasible it'd actually be from a planning standpoint. Especially if Ash's Meltan is itself going to end up evolving--since after Kartana's episode, Melmetal will be the only Gen 7 'mon yet to appear--and filling the role of the big, burly party member. Plus, they may be deliberately setting up a starter triangle that completely excludes Ash, between Lana, Kukui, and Hau (if/when his Dartrix evolves), though that itself is just a theory.


--------------------

Preliminary art stuff is under way now. I want to give all of you thread regulars and long term supporters a chance to have some input here, so I want to open the floor for the moveset we want portrayed. How do you want to handle this? Are you fine with using my Dusk concept as a base and making a few chances where it'd benefit to? Or would you rather we built a new moveset from scratch?
 

Guynamednelson

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while Torracat has no significant appearance differences currently, so It'd be odd for it to gain one on evolution.
The real oddity would be that Ash would have two Pokemon on his team with special forms. Wouldn't they think that's overkill?
 

RandomAce

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Preliminary art stuff is under way now. I want to give all of you thread regulars and long term supporters a chance to have some input here, so I want to open the floor for the moveset we want portrayed. How do you want to handle this? Are you fine with using my Dusk concept as a base and making a few chances where it'd benefit to? Or would you rather we built a new moveset from scratch?
I’m finishing up my moveset so far, if you would like to take a look at it. I do like you’re ideas, but I think it’s good to hear from others and what they would change or add.

I do have one question, will Midday and Midnight also be mentioned? Asking this because I have two concepts, one with only Dusk, and one with all three forms.
 

Cosmic77

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I'd agree, if not for one factor that suggests to me that Torracat won't be evolving:

Torracat currently has an ongoing rivalry with Kukui's Incineroar. As such, it's fairly likely that the two will be squaring off in the league. Generally, two Pokemon of the same species won't fight each other unless its a joke (Metapod vs. Metapod) or there's some sort of significant difference in appearance, so the audience doesn't get confused (Ash and Ritchie's Pikachus come to mind). Kukui's Incineroar is completely normal appearance wise, while Torracat has no significant appearance differences currently, so It'd be odd for it to gain one on evolution.

I guess Torracat could evolve into Incineroar after the final Kukui battle. However, it is kinda weird to have a character gain a power-up after their climatic battle.
As always, we're best off keeping an ear to the ground for these kinds of things. We shouldn't jump to conclusions, as easy as it is to with how the internet works, but we also shouldn't dismiss these kinds of possibilities entirely.

That said, an evolution this late wouldn't discount everything Ash's Lycanroc has done, and I doubt we'd have to worry about getting usurped as the team ace with no prior buildup suggesting such a thing.

Well, not unless some really ****ty writing happened.

There're also big picture things to suggest Ash's Torracat won't evolve, like-


...And I've been beaten to the punch.

The anime is very consistent about never letting two 'mons of the same species and form square off against each other or even appear alongside each other multiple times in the long run, because it'd be extremely difficult to tell who is who. They even went out of their way to give Olivia a Midday Lycanroc in the anime canon because Gladion has a Midnight one as his team ace and they didn't want two Midnights running around! Notice how the only other Primarina in the anime prior to Lana's Brionne evolving was a one-off whose trainer appeared in a single episode? That is very much not the case with Professor Kukui.

While it's not impossible that an evolution could happen here, it definitely raises questions as to how likely or feasible it'd actually be from a planning standpoint. Especially if Ash's Meltan is itself going to end up evolving--since after Kartana's episode, Melmetal will be the only Gen 7 'mon yet to appear--and filling the role of the big, burly party member. Plus, they may be deliberately setting up a starter triangle that completely excludes Ash, between Lana, Kukui, and Hau (if/when his Dartrix evolves), though that itself is just a theory.


--------------------

Preliminary art stuff is under way now. I want to give all of you thread regulars and long term supporters a chance to have some input here, so I want to open the floor for the moveset we want portrayed. How do you want to handle this? Are you fine with using my Dusk concept as a base and making a few chances where it'd benefit to? Or would you rather we built a new moveset from scratch?

I think you two might be letting Kukui influence your opinions a bit too much.

For starters, if there was ever a series in the Pokémon anime where you shouldn't use the phrase, "the anime typically doesn't do this", Sun and Moon would be the one. It's broken so many trends that I can't even count them all, so I don't think it's completely out of the question for two Pokémon of the same kind to have a battle together.

However, if that's still not enough for you, the X and Y anime featured a Lucario vs. Lucario battle between Korrina and Gurkinn.

Second, I feel like you both are under the assumption that the final battle Ash will face in the league will be Kukui. There are plenty of other characters who could be Ash's last opponent, so Torracat could easily evolve after it's fight with Kukui's Incineroar. And that's assuming the two even face off at all. Kukui may not participate, or he could be eliminated by another person.

Just something to chew on. I wouldn't eliminate the possibility.
 
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I think you two might be letting Kukui influence your opinions a bit too much.

For starters, if there was ever a series in the Pokémon anime where you shouldn't use the phrase, "the anime typically doesn't do this", Sun and Moon would be the one. It's broken so many trends that I can't even count them all, so I don't think it's completely out of the question for two Pokémon of the same kind to have a battle together.

However, if that's still not enough for you, the X and Y anime featured a Lucario vs. Lucario battle between Korrina and Gurkinn.

Second, I feel like you both are under the assumption that the final battle Ash will face in the league will be Kukui. There are plenty of other characters who could be Ash's last opponent, so Torracat could easily evolve after it's fight with Kukui's Incineroar. And that's assuming the two even face off at all. Kukui may not participate, or he could be eliminated by another person.

Just something to chew on. I wouldn't eliminate the possibility.
There's also an upcoming episode where Ash and Torracat are sent back in time and meet young Kukui and his Litten.

Having Ash's Incineroar be what inspires Kukui to train up his Litten to become one would make a lot of sense, tbh.
 

RandomAce

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The anime does break some trends, but there are things that still stay consistent. I think Cosmic’s argument of Brionne evolving into Primerina in a shorter time span doesn’t hold up as much because their side characters, and don’t have a lot of time focused on them, where as Ash is the main character. And Kukui is set up as this huge rival for Ash anyways, so it may be possible that Torrocat may not evolve due to that.

But even then, I think the main reason I don’t see Ash having an Incineroar that’s extremely prominent is because they didn’t set up Litten as much throughout the series to push for this sort of arc. If there is something that is consistent in every generation, it’s that there’s always a specific or couple of Pokémon from the beginning that have constant arcs and episodes that expand the bond between them and Ash all the way till the end (or even past that). Examples include Charizard, Sceptile, Greninja, and some others I’ve probably missed, and I don’t see that changing here because it’s bad writing to have someone to suddenly jump in as a prominent role last minute. Torrocat evolving into Incineroar can be used at the end as a final climax, but it’s the focus that’s put on Ash and his Litten that can’t, and in this case, they only had like two to three arcs on Litten around the beginning before he was dropped around episode 50 until in possibly a couple of weeks around the final stretch of the anime’s run, where there wouldn’t be as much time. And this form of arc structure hasn’t been abandoned in Sun and Moon since the Pokémon that had the most arcs and bonding with Ash similar to the previous generation(s) is Lycanroc. And with all the time spent on Lycanroc, it wouldn’t go well if someone else took the reigns all of a sudden, as there really wouldn’t be a point for the build up with Lycanroc.

I’m not saying that it’s impossible that Torrocat could be an Incineroar, I could definitely see Ash have his moments with his Incineroar and have his fated battle against Kukui, but I do think the time has passed for Ash and Incineroar to be the “main team” this generation, and I feel that would go to Lycanroc instead, it’s the direction I’ve noticed current seasons are going for and how it’s similar to what was done before.
 
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Delzethin

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I’m finishing up my moveset so far, if you would like to take a look at it. I do like you’re ideas, but I think it’s good to hear from others and what they would change or add.

I do have one question, will Midday and Midnight also be mentioned? Asking this because I have two concepts, one with only Dusk, and one with all three forms.
The plan so far is to focus on the Dusk form. Partially because it's been the most prominent one, but also because I didn't want to overcomplicate the commission and require multiple sets of artwork to be drawn or anything.


I think you two might be letting Kukui influence your opinions a bit too much.

For starters, if there was ever a series in the Pokémon anime where you shouldn't use the phrase, "the anime typically doesn't do this", Sun and Moon would be the one. It's broken so many trends that I can't even count them all, so I don't think it's completely out of the question for two Pokémon of the same kind to have a battle together.

However, if that's still not enough for you, the X and Y anime featured a Lucario vs. Lucario battle between Korrina and Gurkinn.

Second, I feel like you both are under the assumption that the final battle Ash will face in the league will be Kukui. There are plenty of other characters who could be Ash's last opponent, so Torracat could easily evolve after it's fight with Kukui's Incineroar. And that's assuming the two even face off at all. Kukui may not participate, or he could be eliminated by another person.

Just something to chew on. I wouldn't eliminate the possibility.
While the Alola anime has broken some trends, the whole "avoiding having multiple 'mons of the same species and form be present together or even both be recurring characters" isn't something they've done for the sake of tradition, it's just practical from an animation standpoint. Have two characters with more-or-less identical appearances running around, and you risk your viewers losing track of who is who. Especially if your main demographic is kids! And while we don't know whether Kukui is participating in the Alola League tournament, he will be a constant presence there since he's the one running the thing.

For the record, my guess for now is the finals will be Ash vs. Gladion, bringing the rivalry that has spanned most of the Alola saga to a dramatic finish. It'll be a match with three 'mons per side, with Ash using Pikachu, Lycanroc, and Melmetal against Gladion's own Lycanroc, Silvally, and Umbreon. Finishing with a Dusk vs. Midnight grudge match, of course.

Will Ash actually win this time? Damned if I know.
 
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Garteam

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Regardless of who the final Alola opponent is, I think we can all agree on one thing...

We don't need another Tobias. He was the biggest deus ex machina the Pokemon anime has seen, and that's saying something considering it's a shonen action series.
 

Guynamednelson

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Although I personally do not believe Lycanroc getting in the Fighters Pass now, I highly admire the effort you guys delve into to speculate.

The topics you discussed the last few pages have been quite insightful and interesting.
You know, there is a good reason why you can believe that: Scizor. It returned to Poke Balls with an overhauled moveset, while Pichu returns as the sole playable Gen 2 rep. Granted, Scizor can't be a clone and bringing back all the vets means all of them.
 

RandomAce

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The plan so far is to focus on the Dusk form. Partially because it's been the most prominent one, but also because I didn't want to overcomplicate the commission and require multiple sets of artwork to be drawn or anything.
I can see why. I was asking for something simple like the mention of a form switch mechanic to show something Lycanroc could bring.

For the record, my guess for now is the finals will be Ash vs. Gladion, bringing the rivalry that has spanned most of the Alola saga to a dramatic finish. It'll be a match with three 'mons per side, with Ash using Pikachu, Lycanroc, and Melmetal against Gladion's own Lycanroc, Silvally, and Umbreon. Finishing with a Dusk vs. Midnight grudge match, of course.

Will Ash actually win this time? Damned if I know.
Well, one thing pokemon fans have been mentioning is how after every Pokémon league that Ash has participated in he always got closer and closer to the top spot. In Kanto he was in Top 64, Johto Top 32, Hoenn Top 16, Sinnoh Top 8, Unova Top 4, and Kalos in Finals.

But as a wise storyteller said. “There can never be a good ending to a popular show, because if there was, the show would be over, and the show must go on.” Which is what the producer of the Alola anime series said about how Ash winning the Alola league would make him a Pokémon master, how it would end the anime, and half-rebooted the series.

I’m kinda hoping he’s faking it a bit, since it would be neat to have Ash win for once and I feel the whole “starting from the bottom” cliche that Ash has done for every generation is something that would work even when Ash does win... but I honestly don’t know what they’re even going to do this time leading up to it Alola League.

Although I personally do not believe Lycanroc getting in the Fighters Pass now, I highly admire the effort you guys delve into to speculate.

The topics you discussed the last few pages have been quite insightful and interesting.
It truly shows the amount of support some of us have for Lycanroc.

Although some people say that we’re too obsessive or that we should stop supporting Lycanroc, at the end of the day, it’s a Pokémon that we like discussing about and that includes discussion of it in Smash.

Simply keeping the discussion alive it’s what it really is about, and I don’t see any problem in it.
 
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Delzethin

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Meanwhile, one of the official Pokémon Twitter accounts has been doing previews of the anime dub as the episodes air. Check out which one they've caught up to:


There're quite a few fans in the comments...along with the usual jokes, memes, and "where's Gen 8" snark. While Smash-related talk (or what talk there was for us) has died off elsewhere, there are still people who give a damn. Let no one say we "aren't popular enough" to be worth considering.
 
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LukeRNG

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I don't remember at this point if i asked this, but here goes:
What characters were you introduced to thanks to smash (aka, who did you not know about before playing a smash bros game.)

Mine were:
Melee:
All Zelda Characters, Samus, Fox, Falco, Ness, Captain Falcon, Marth, Roy, Game & Watch, Ice Climbers, Donkey Kong, Dr. Mario.

Brawl:
Snake, Ike, Lucas, R.O.B., Pit, Zero Suit Samus, Olimar, Toon Link, Wolf, Diddy Kong.

Smash 4:
Robin.

Ultimate:
Richter Belmont.
 

RandomAce

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Meanwhile, one of the official Pokémon Twitter accounts has been doing previews of the anime dub as the episodes air. Check out which one they've caught up to:


There're quite a few fans in the comments...along with the usual jokes, memes, and "where's Gen 8" snark. While Smash-related talk (or what talk there was for us) has died off elsewhere, there are still people who give a damn. Let no one say we "aren't popular enough" to be worth considering.
Speaking of the anime, we finally found out who Lycanroc’s English voice actor is!

It’s Michael Liscio Jr., and unlike his japanese counterparts, he voices all three forms himself.

What characters were you introduced to thanks to smash (aka, who did you not know about before playing a smash bros game.)
Brawl did a lot for me.

Brawl: :ultfox::ultfalco::ultwolf::ultlucas::ultness::ultolimar::ultfalcon::ultmarth::ultike::ultsheik::ultpit::ultsamus::ultzss::ultgnw::ultrob::ulticeclimbers:

Smash 3DS/Wii U: :ultlucina::ultrobin::ultshulk::ultpalutena::ultdarkpit::ultwiifittrainer::ultcorrin::ultbayonetta::ultcloud:(Sorta):ultroy:(Sorta)

Ultimate: :ultrichter: (I thought I would know every newcomer. Nope!)
 
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Delzethin

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Okay, the art project is starting to progress. We've decided to tackle the Specials first, so let's make that the first order of business.

As a refresher, my Dusk concept went with:

Neutral: Accelerock - Launches forward a set distance Fox Illusion-style and multi-hits the first opponent that it catches. Activates fury state and starts combos if you connect, but it's very unsafe on shield and puts you into freefall if you miss. Works best at punishing whiffed attacks.
Side: Stealth Rock - Toss a pointed stone forward that embeds itself in the first stage surface it touches. The first opponent to get to close has it activate and stick them, then pop them up for easy followups while also triggering fury.
Up: Rock Climb - Summons a rock at Lycanroc's feet, which is used as a surface to leap off to safety. Not the best recovery move (it's meant to be used interchangeably with Accelerock depending on the situation), but you can start a fury state if you land the initial hit as the rock platform materializes, and you leap further if used while fury is active.
Down: Counter Stone - A counterattack with a twist (which isn't so rare anymore), the actual counterattack is just okay, but the real reward is the extended fury state you get that scales based on your damage and the strength of the move you countered. Instead of an immediate payback, it gives you an advantage state for up to 20 seconds instead (though usually closer to 7-10).

While they're a solid foundation, I think we can still improve them, mostly because I'm a perfectionist to a fault, haha. Which of these do you guys feel could use some editing? Even suggestions for replacing any with a different move entirely are welcome. Off the top of my head, I've considered swapping Accelerock's and Stealth Rock's spots, having Accelerock be chargeable to go more distance, having Stealth Rock hover slightly off the ground instead of sticking in it in order to not feel like a knockoff of Isabelle's Lloid Trap, and maybe even replacing Counter Stone entirely with something else like Rock Tomb since as-is it feels vaguely close to Revenge and Rebel's Guard.

Thoughts, everyone? I want you to be able to have a say in this too.


I don't remember at this point if i asked this, but here goes:
What characters were you introduced to thanks to smash (aka, who did you not know about before playing a smash bros game.)

Mine were:
Melee:
All Zelda Characters, Samus, Fox, Falco, Ness, Captain Falcon, Marth, Roy, Game & Watch, Ice Climbers, Donkey Kong, Dr. Mario.

Brawl:
Snake, Ike, Lucas, R.O.B., Pit, Zero Suit Samus, Olimar, Toon Link, Wolf, Diddy Kong.

Smash 4:
Robin.

Ultimate:
Richter Belmont.
Well, this is about to get awkward.

Smash 64: :ultfalcon::ultness:

Melee: :ulticeclimbers::ultmarth::ultroy:

...And that's it. Apparently I saw and played a wide enough variety of games when I was a kid that I knew almost everyone even back then. Even realized who Mr. Game & Watch was supposed to be because I owned a couple Game & Watch Gallery games!
 
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Garteam

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I finally got around to seeing Detective Pikachu. All in all, it was better than I thought it would be! Ryan Reynolds is great as Pikachu and the plot was honestly more interesting than I thought it would be. They really do get a lot out of the Pokemon concept in use in very interesting ways.

The only complaints I have Justice Smith's performance and the lack of variety in terms of Pokemon. Smith wasn't awful per se, he just looked extremely bored throughout the entire movie. It's weird to see all these amazing set pieces unfold, while our protagonist usually only really gives a very faint surprise as their reaction to all of this. My second critique is more of a nitpick than major flaw, but some of the crowd scenes look really weird due to lack of Pokemon variety. I don't know if it was lack of budget or Game Freak being picky in terms of rights, but it's strange that there's only about 30 different species of Pokemon in Ryme City.

Also, Lycanroc doesn't appear in the movie. Unless I missed something, the only Gen 7 Pokemon who appear are Morelull and Comfey.
 

Guynamednelson

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I don't know if it was lack of budget or Game Freak being picky in terms of rights, but it's strange that there's only about 30 different species of Pokemon in Ryme City.
I haven't seen the movie but I can tell they had to use the CG budget on way more than Pokemon.
 

GlaceonGD

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Okay, the art project is starting to progress. We've decided to tackle the Specials first, so let's make that the first order of business.

As a refresher, my Dusk concept went with:

Neutral: Accelerock - Launches forward a set distance Fox Illusion-style and multi-hits the first opponent that it catches. Activates fury state and starts combos if you connect, but it's very unsafe on shield and puts you into freefall if you miss. Works best at punishing whiffed attacks.
Side: Stealth Rock - Toss a pointed stone forward that embeds itself in the first stage surface it touches. The first opponent to get to close has it activate and stick them, then pop them up for easy followups while also triggering fury.
Up: Rock Climb - Summons a rock at Lycanroc's feet, which is used as a surface to leap off to safety. Not the best recovery move (it's meant to be used interchangeably with Accelerock depending on the situation), but you can start a fury state if you land the initial hit as the rock platform materializes, and you leap further if used while fury is active.
Down: Counter Stone - A counterattack with a twist (which isn't so rare anymore), the actual counterattack is just okay, but the real reward is the extended fury state you get that scales based on your damage and the strength of the move you countered. Instead of an immediate payback, it gives you an advantage state for up to 20 seconds instead (though usually closer to 7-10).

While they're a solid foundation, I think we can still improve them, mostly because I'm a perfectionist to a fault, haha. Which of these do you guys feel could use some editing? Even suggestions for replacing any with a different move entirely are welcome. Off the top of my head, I've considered swapping Accelerock's and Stealth Rock's spots, having Accelerock be chargeable to go more distance, having Stealth Rock hover slightly off the ground instead of sticking in it in order to not feel like a knockoff of Isabelle's Lloid Trap, and maybe even replacing Counter Stone entirely with something else like Rock Tomb since as-is it feels vaguely close to Revenge and Rebel's Guard.

Thoughts, everyone? I want you to be able to have a say in this too.



Well, this is about to get awkward.

Smash 64: :ultfalcon::ultness:

Melee: :ulticeclimbers::ultmarth::ultroy:

...And that's it. Apparently I saw and played a wide enough variety of games when I was a kid that I knew almost everyone even back then. Even realized who Mr. Game & Watch was supposed to be because I owned a couple Game & Watch Gallery games!
If you ask me, I feel like stone edge should present in the moveset in some form considering it's the move that triggers splintered storm shards in the games. While it's by no means a "signature move" of the line it is one of the most powerful in their arsenal, maybe it can be used as an up/forward smash instead of a special? Of course this is only if you plan on making a jab, smash attacks, aerials, etc. which technically are part of the moveset (there are so many different moves you have to come up with stuff for it's almost painful, I still have yet to finish the last few empty slots on the eevee moveset I was working on a while back) but I can understand if you don't think the move fits in in any way, just a suggestion.
 
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Guynamednelson

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Although I personally do not believe Lycanroc getting in the Fighters Pass now
There was a little discussion about fighters from already represented series being released separately from the FP without stages or music in the social thread. Now that I think about it, Sakurai might think Lycanroc wouldn't need a home stage and would be one of these separate fighters. We have Pokemon Stadium 1 with its rock-type form plus since Incineroar's home stage is from Punch-Out, they could use Wuhu Island as a stand-in for Alola in general or Gerudo Valley for Vast Poni Canyon.
 
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Kirbeh

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I don't remember at this point if i asked this, but here goes:
What characters were you introduced to thanks to smash (aka, who did you not know about before playing a smash bros game.)

Mine were:
Melee:
All Zelda Characters, Samus, Fox, Falco, Ness, Captain Falcon, Marth, Roy, Game & Watch, Ice Climbers, Donkey Kong, Dr. Mario.

Brawl:
Snake, Ike, Lucas, R.O.B., Pit, Zero Suit Samus, Olimar, Toon Link, Wolf, Diddy Kong.

Smash 4:
Robin.

Ultimate:
Richter Belmont.
Melee: Easier to list the characters I actually knew; :ultmario::ultluigi::ultpeach::ultbowser::ultpikachu::ultpichu::ultjigglypuff::ultmewtwo:

Brawl: :ultpit::ultrob:

Melee and the lead up to Brawl is basically when I learned of most every franchise I'm familiar with now.
 

RandomAce

Smash Champion
Joined
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Messages
2,602
Okay, the art project is starting to progress. We've decided to tackle the Specials first, so let's make that the first order of business.

As a refresher, my Dusk concept went with:

Neutral: Accelerock - Launches forward a set distance Fox Illusion-style and multi-hits the first opponent that it catches. Activates fury state and starts combos if you connect, but it's very unsafe on shield and puts you into freefall if you miss. Works best at punishing whiffed attacks.
Side: Stealth Rock - Toss a pointed stone forward that embeds itself in the first stage surface it touches. The first opponent to get to close has it activate and stick them, then pop them up for easy followups while also triggering fury.
Up: Rock Climb - Summons a rock at Lycanroc's feet, which is used as a surface to leap off to safety. Not the best recovery move (it's meant to be used interchangeably with Accelerock depending on the situation), but you can start a fury state if you land the initial hit as the rock platform materializes, and you leap further if used while fury is active.
Down: Counter Stone - A counterattack with a twist (which isn't so rare anymore), the actual counterattack is just okay, but the real reward is the extended fury state you get that scales based on your damage and the strength of the move you countered. Instead of an immediate payback, it gives you an advantage state for up to 20 seconds instead (though usually closer to 7-10).

While they're a solid foundation, I think we can still improve them, mostly because I'm a perfectionist to a fault, haha. Which of these do you guys feel could use some editing? Even suggestions for replacing any with a different move entirely are welcome. Off the top of my head, I've considered swapping Accelerock's and Stealth Rock's spots, having Accelerock be chargeable to go more distance, having Stealth Rock hover slightly off the ground instead of sticking in it in order to not feel like a knockoff of Isabelle's Lloid Trap, and maybe even replacing Counter Stone entirely with something else like Rock Tomb since as-is it feels vaguely close to Revenge and Rebel's Guard.

Thoughts, everyone? I want you to be able to have a say in this too.



Well, this is about to get awkward.

Smash 64: :ultfalcon::ultness:

Melee: :ulticeclimbers::ultmarth::ultroy:

...And that's it. Apparently I saw and played a wide enough variety of games when I was a kid that I knew almost everyone even back then. Even realized who Mr. Game & Watch was supposed to be because I owned a couple Game & Watch Gallery games!
I was thinking of having Thrash as mix of Accelerock and Counter Stone, ala Palutena and Joker, where you can hold B to do your counter move and holding it can also allow you absorb multi hitting attacks to increase it’s “fury state” longer, where as without holding it would give you Accelerock, or something similar to it. This way, Down B can be Rock Tomb. As for Stealth Rock I also thought of you being able to release multiple similar to Shiek Neutral B works, I could see where it floats in the air similar to how it does in the anime.

I only really have two complaints. My main problem is Up B. I think it’s fine, but I’m not really a fan of it. I feel like you can do something more interesting with Lycanroc’s recovery other than “it jumps off a rock”. Although, this is something I’ve been thinking about. Other than that, I feel like Counter Stone also feels a bit hashed in? With all of the other moves being able to unlock Dusk’s “fury state” I feel that it sorta of loses Counter Stone’s purpose. Joker’s Rebel’s Guard was what I always sort of depicted Counter Stone, where Lycanroc would absorb attacks and go into his “fury” state depending on how much damage he took, while sacrificing some damage. But unlike Joker’s, it’s once per use. It was also something I saw Midnight doing when I originally saw the idea, where Midnight would be in a state where he would absorb any attacks and unleash his counter move. I feel like Lycanroc getting beat up only to come back stronger is something that they would do.

I’ve actually seen it in some of your video’s comments, “No Guard”, which is an ability Midnight and Dusk have. Although, it’s kinda funny how the name is similar to Joker’s move to.
 

LukeRNG

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There was a little discussion about fighters from already represented series being released separately from the FP without stages or music in the social thread. Now that I think about it, Sakurai might think Lycanroc wouldn't need a home stage and would be one of these separate fighters. We have Pokemon Stadium 1 with its rock-type form plus since Incineroar's home stage is from Punch-Out, they could use Wuhu Island as a stand-in for Alola in general or Gerudo Valley for Vast Poni Canyon.
If we were getting dlc fighters outside of the fighter's pass, when would be a good time to announce them? They might want to finish the fighter's pass first and to me, making a character as time-consuming and unique as Lycanroc might not be very possible given their schedule to release everyone by february 2020. The only way i personally see them adding 1 newcomer outside of the pass is to have a developed character alongside the aforementioned fighter #2 and #3 since they're already developing stages alongside these characters amoung other additions. Not saying it's impossible, but given that smash ultimate is even more complex and bigger than smash wii u i find it hard for them to develop another character outside of the fighter's pass.
I also don't know if some people who bought the fighter's pass would receive that very well given that they would have to pay more for a character they wanted but didn't get in the fighter's pass.

At least i can see them releasing an echo fighter or 3 in between fighter pass characters.

One last thing, would anyone say that e3 is our final chance to get lycanroc announced? Because after e3 sword and shield would gain a lot more traction and gen 7 will be a thing of the past.
 
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Guynamednelson

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At least i can see them releasing an echo fighter or 3 in between fighter pass characters.

One last thing, would anyone say that e3 is our final chance to get lycanroc announced? Because after e3 sword and shield would gain a lot more traction and gen 7 will be a thing of the past.
Good point, it would definitely be characters who are cheaper to make. I don't see him being a clone of either character, but I can still see BWD using Kirby/Meta Knight assets to speed up development. Lycanroc on the other hand has a more distinct shape from any of the playable canines.

And yes, E3 is the final chance.
 
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